UKH

England is easy enough (land of the Angles, though I've no idea of the origin of the name 'Angle'), but Britain is more obscure. It may be related to the early fertility Goddess 'Brid' or 'Brig' (from whose name we get words like bride and breed, as well as certain more, er, 'robust' words), but that is speculative. It obviously dates back at least to the Romans (Britannia), and the Welsh version is 'Prydain' (though I don't know how old that is). Anyone know of any authoritative sources?

In reply to Steve Parker:

"I'm Arthur, King of the Britons."

"Who are the Britons?"

"We all are. And I am your King!"

"Well I didn't vote for you."

No idea. Sorry.

In reply to KeithW: That's okay. Are you really him? Really? If so, I've got a job for you. Still got your sword? Know where Whitehall is?

In reply to Steve Parker:

No. True executive power derives from a mandate of the masses. Not some farcical semi-aquatic sword-giving ceremony.

In reply to KeithW: I imagine the farcical semi-aquatic ceremony is probably about as reliable as our present system, which barely scrapes any mass mandate even given all the resources of brainwashing, media manipulation and sod-all choice. Certainly more picturesque!

In reply to Steve Parker:

It took it's name from a popular BBC comedy, Little Britain.

In reply to Slugain Howff: BBC? Britain Before Conquest? Hmm, you might be on to something.

In reply to Steve Parker:

I don't know

This sounds convincing enough

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain/britain.h...

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:


It's derived from the ancient queen of this island, Britney Ichuckspears who toured the country and taught our boys how to fight those nasty Romans. They were so impressed by her they named the country after her............

In reply to Steve Parker:


No much older, Britain Before Christians.

In reply to Yrmenlaf: I'm aware of the Roman 'Britannia,' but I'm wondering where they got it from. I still suspect the Romans meant something like 'land of Brid,' as many places were named after tutelary gods and goddesses. Half the place-names on the UK map are semi-corrupt names of pagan deities.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

>http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain/britain.h...

hmmm, but it doesn't refer to why the Romans called it Britannia. Presumably they had a reason...

In reply to Steve Parker:

Look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain

In reply to Dominion:

http://www.ancientworlds.net/104558

has a link of romano-british web-sites

In reply to Jon Hemlock: That's not how it works, Jon. You put up a thread and other people look things up. That way you get to have a debate and/or a fight about it. That's what a forum is all about. It would be cheating for the OP to look anything up or click on any links! The OP must strive to retain his/her ignorance until near the end of the thread. Just how it works.

In reply to Jon Hemlock:

there is a statue of "Brutus first king of [England/Britain (can't remember)]" in Bath

In reply to Steve Parker:

I do apologise Steve. Patience isn't a virtue I possess. Not particularly a forum 'cruiser' personally so don't know the form.

Out of interest, what's the 'OP'? I'm guessing at Original Poster...

In reply to Dominion: Romano-British web-sites? Bloody hell, they were advanced weren't they?!

In reply to Slugain Howff: I think slugain was closer, the romans first invasion of britain was 55BC so conquest predates christians.

(I'll get my coat on the way out)

In reply to Steve Parker:

It doesnt exist anymore. Hasnt anyone told you its now the United Kingdom??

In reply to Steve Parker:
Ceasar wrote of the Gauls "Among the Gods they worship Mercury....Apollo, Mars, Jupiter and Minerva..[he then goes on to say how their understanding of these gods is like the Roman understanding]...The Gauls affirm they are descended from Dis, s common father, and say this is a tradition of the Druids"

It would be interesting to know the names of the Celic deities that Ceasar equates with the Roman ones

Lucans tells of three celtic Gods Teutates, Esus and Taranis.

I can't find (in ten minutes) a reference to Brid.

Most place names that come from pagan gods come from saxon pagan gods, not celtic ones (Woden and Thunor being particularly popular)

Y.

In reply to Chastity:

It's all petty political b0ll0cks anyway, provided by people who need labels and bureaucracy to define who they are. People actually kill each other about these things aswell! Idiots, utter idiots.

Apparently Britain/ the UK/ The British Isles/ Bretagne etc etc etc didn't technically win the war against Germany until 1990 because of the period after the war when they threw the Berlin Wall up to keep out the Communists Germany wasn't Germany it was East Germany and West Germany, who 'we' weren't at war against, but when they reunited apparently some suit in some office had to sign something provided by some suit in another office to say they weren't at war anymore.

Absolute nonsense!

In reply to Jon Hemlock:

Now you are getting the hang of things. Throw in a reference to the goons or goodies doing one of their sketches and you can keep things going for weeks.

BTW, where does your surname come from, the poison?

In reply to sutty:

Check out the profile, there's a whimsical reference in there somewhere...

In reply to Yrmenlaf:



Brid is more commonly known as Brigid or Brig (related to the Norse 'Frigg' or 'Freya'). I used the Brid variant as it is more suggestive of 'Prydain' and 'Britain.' The names 'Bride', 'Breed' or 'Brid' were eventually and widely christianised as Saint Bridget, and survive under the latter name at many 'holy' sites - such as wells - in Ireland.

You're right that most place names of that type are from Saxon gods rather than Celtic. Many are also Norse, especially across the Northern Danelaw. The Celts, for some reason, had little impact upon the later landscape or language. English adopted very few Celtic words, though it would later adopt many Norse and Norman words.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Brigit was originally a fire goddess, so its no surprise that she became the main focus of our worship in this part of the world (esp once metal forging kicked off)

Julian Cope has some interesting insights on her

In reply to Steve Parker:

for gods sake steve any fule knows that 405 of the vote of 30% of the country is a mass mandate and extrapolation is fine as the other 70% were jsut too busy rather than abstaining on the ground that there all idiots.
p

In reply to Steve Parker:

Yep, found her now.

Thanks

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:

a keltic language note:

the language of the Bruts (pronounced 'Brits') is Cymraeg ('Cum-rig'), the people Y Cymry ('Ee- Cumry'), derived from the Old British 'Combrogli'- 'fellow countrymen'; those whom the invading Saxons called 'Welsh' or 'foreigners'

In reply to malk:

Cool brocken spectre on your profile!

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

fanks

it was very funny watching my friends peering over a cliff trying to do YMCA with their brokenspectres

In reply to Steve Parker: Surely this is because the English (being germanic peoples) didn't really speak with the Celtic Britons, as far as I can tell from reading 'In Search of Arthurs Britain' there was very little coexistence, fighting was followed by a Celtic retreat into wales and southern Wales (Cornwall) from where many Britons moved to Britanny (hence the name) I was under the impression that the Saxon and norse communities eventually became much more integrated Canute for example was King of the whole of England. then the Norman conquest inroduced french to the language pot leading to the absorbtion of many french words. here there was a lot more time in which to do it.

In reply to malk:

Stupid question alert ! but something I've never really understood.

Is there any difference between England Britian and UK ?

Also, on a different note, is it Center or Centre ? is one american spelling or something ?

Just some things I never bothered to sort out.

In reply to Southampton Tom:

There are many versions of what might have happened. Some scholars (e.g, Chadwick) reckon there was little fighting, and the Celtic people stayed where they were and assimilated Saxon culture. Others say that the Celts were all killed by the Saxons. And still others think something in between.

Y.

In reply to Leee: Well, let's just think about the first bit shall we?

I take it you ARE English? From England, within the United Kingdom, which with Northern Ireland forms Great Britain?

Just try telling any Scots, or Welsh that they're English...

And if you are in the middle, then English useage is that you are in the centre. Only illiterates, and Merkins, use center.

In reply to Yrmenlaf: I'd go with the latter. Local populations absorbed into the new order, as with Saxons and Normans a few hundred years later.

Die hards chased into a corner, and eventually killed off.

TTG

In reply to malk:

In 899, Asser (the Welshman) refered to the British and English as distinct peoples. According to Peter Berresford-Ellis, the tern Cwmraeg came in about 50 years later.

Then King James 1st of England started refering to all of his dominions as Britain

Y.

In reply to O Mighty Tim:

I think it depends on where you are. I think the Northumbrian Saxons were much more inclined to make treaties with the Celts, whereas the Mercian Saxons were more minded to destroy them

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

Apart from the very early Battle of Mount Badon (c500), there is very little evidence of conflict or extermination at all; and the idea that the Celts were driven westwards is no widely regarded as a myth. It seems the Mercians and Northumbrians were much more interested in attacking each other than the Britons.

In reply to malk:
Cymraeg ('Cum-rig'), the people Y Cymry ('Ee- Cumry'), derived from the Old British 'Combrogli'- 'fellow countrymen'; those whom the invading Saxons called 'Welsh' or 'foreigners'

Don't know where you found that, Malk, but some of the pronunciation is wrong. 'Y' by itself is pronounced 'uh', and means 'the.' The 'ae' in Cymraeg is pronounced 'eye'. I lived in Wales for 10 years and speak some Welsh. As Yrmenlaf said, good Brocken Spectre. Is it real or a Photoshop job?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

How were the 'Celts' (erroneous umbrella term that it is!) so comprehensively displaced then, if not driven out or exterminated? Or are you suggesting that they merged? They seem to have left scant linguistic evidence if so.

In reply to Steve Parker: Does anyone know how old the Welsh language is? Is it older than the Germanic Languages or Latin?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Generally, I tend to agree, and with O Mighty Tim.

There is some evidence, though. Gildas, for example, and Bede mentions the battle of Chester (where Athelfrith kills Selyf ApCynon of Powys and 2000 monks), and Edwin's expulsion of Ceredig ApGwalog of Elmet. Athelfrith gave the Picts a good hiding as well - I forget the location.

I have heard it argued that, were it not for Edwin's annexation of Elmet, then Mercia and Northumbria would not have been neighbours.

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:

The suggestion is that the ruling elite were displaced, and the hoi poloi adopted the customs of the ruling elite

(although alot of high Saxon culture owes a lot to Celtic forms. There is speculation that the "Sutton Hoo mound 1 king" had a "Celtic" craftsman in his employ / service).

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Assimilated, in small pockets, and vastly outnumbered by the incomers. Names like Bretton (as in Bretton Clough) and Wales (a hamlet s of Sheffield) are just two of many examples of Celtic enclaves around the Peak that survived into the Middle Ages.

In reply to SoHotRockstar:

The Celtic language is much older than the Latin, but not being originally a written language it is very hard to trace back. But the Celts started arriving in Britain in c 500 BC. Latin derived many of its words from existing Celtic ones, throughout the Roman Empire. AFAIK.

In reply to O Mighty Tim:>

Move away from the bait now. Nothing to see here.

In reply to SoHotRockstar: Welsh as it is spoken now (or sort of) dates from around the 6th century AD, when it started to become distinct from the earlier Brythonic base as spoken throughout Britain (with variations). When the early forms of Brythonic came to Britain from mainland Europe is rather sketchy, as far as I know; but the earliest Brythonic languages spoken in Britain were the ancestors of Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Manx etc. So the original form of Welsh was first spoken by the first immigrants. How long ago? Dunno! Pre Stonehenge, anyway!

In reply to Steve Parker:

I remember reading somewhere (and it is annoying me that I cannot find the reference) about a 9th Century scholar from Wales who had to go to Turkey (Tarsus?) on business.

He had expected to speak Latin. When he got there, he was astonished to find that he could understand the vernacular tongue.

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:

i got it from a quote in JC's modern antiquarian book (not my pronounciation)

Bridgit is everywhere:
In our landscape, in our names, in our language.
She is Bree - she is Bridgit - she is Britain

as for the photo, it's cropped and auto levelled in photoshop, so i guess in the strictest sense it it a photoshop job

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Oops we are contradicting each other!

Part of my thinking is that it is simplistic to assume that the same thing happened in Derbyshire as happened in Northumbria. It is not as if the Saxons or the British were a single nation under a single king

For example, around 600 Ida Flamebearer (I think) married a Pictish princess (Bebba), and named Bamborough after her. This (to me) indicates a fairly equal balance of power, to be overcome by marriage treaties and negotiation, rather than men with swords.

And later still the Mercian thegn Penda allies himself with the British king Cadwalla, in order to further his own Mercian political ends, and to give the Northumbrians a good seeing to

Y.

In reply to malk:

Is that Jesus Christ or John Cleese?

Y.

In reply to malk:

Oh right, genuine spectre then? Nice one!

In reply to Leee:

Great Britain is the collective term for England,Scotland and Wales as a single island.

The United Kingdom is the collective term for Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

During The Olympic Games, I belive we incorrectly compete as Great Britain, when we should compete as the United Kindom as the British Olympic Teams are made up from competitors from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

During the Commonwealth Games we compete as seperate nations.

Jeff C

In reply to malk:

not strictly true (she had guises as the triple goddess and the swan goddess (abbotsbury- close to the mouths of the rivers bride and brit and bridport, and long and little bredy)

In reply to Jon Hemlock:



One of the features of wikipedia is that anyone can edit the details. Any changes may be checked for decency etc. but not necessarily for accuracy.
Any information found there needs an appropriate pinch of salt.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Sounds a remarkably benign takeover by a people whose attitude to foreigners is revealed in that nasty word, 'wealas.' I'm sure the practicalities on the ground allowed for many treaties and alliances, but I'm equally sure there would have been a great deal of bloodshed. If it wasn't generally the case, then I guess it may say something about the tiny indigenous population at the time, the abundance of available land, and the lack of necessity for competition.

Difficult to say anything with certainty over such a vast gulf of time, obviously, but it seems pretty clear that the 'Celts' were spread over most of Britain before and during the Roman period, and, apart from a few small pockets, were very much localised into their modern territories following the Anglo-Saxon and Norse invasions/migrations.

Have to chase this up further, it's interesting stuff. I'm not aware of a sufficient Celtic legacy in England to suggest the survival of a large number of post-Saxon Celtic enclaves. Why were their place names so widely eradicated, when even small incoming bands of Saxons have their chieftains commemorated by the many, many 'ing' occurrences? Hmm. Further reading required.

In reply to Steve Parker:

there are plenty of brit/brid/bree derived names about

around abbotsbury as mentioned

and inland from Bridlington in yorkshire (neolithic HQ) where the river Ure still honours the ubergoddess <strong>Ur</strong> who named the earth the air and europe

In reply to Steve Parker and Yrmenlaf:

Stonehenge predates the arrival of the Celts by many centuries, I think you'll find. The generally accepted dating for their arrival is 500 or 600 BC whereas Stonehenge is said to have been built over the period from 3000 to 1500 BC... so those who dress up as druids and cavort there have got things wrong too.

Concerning the violence (or not) of the anglo-saxon-jutish invasions, which started when Hengist and Horsa were employed by the Romano-British (Celts mostly) to defend the isles after the roman legions withdrew around 400 AD but then decided to expand their activities to include a little invasion too, the current trend seems to be too minimise it a bit, political correctness "oblige". Previously it was believed to have been very bloody - there are many massacres mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles.

This fine document was compiled at the time but, like all old many times recopied books, needs taking with a pinch of salt too... it says, for example, that the original inhabitants of the isles were Armenians and Scythes! This gave great pleasure to my wife but had me choking on the port. It is believed to have been an error of transcription of "Amoricain" (French Brittany) in reality.

Anglo-Saxon Chronicle: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Anglo/

Which is from the Medieval Source book : http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html

In a previous thread someone produced a reference to DNA research that showed that all over the British Isles people had about the same percentage of "Celtic genes" - i.e. the Scots are no more Celtic than the people living is the London commuter belt... this was in a bit of bickering at election time regarding Scottish nationalism so may need checking out

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Not so; a 9th century work by Bede. Given credence to some extent for the 5th & 6th centuries because of the occasional preservation of an archaic case-ending or a pre-Alfredian form of a proper name. The foundation of the work was a set of West Saxon annals, possibly written in Latin, which came down to the middle of the 8th century.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Yes, of course you're right, Bruce - I fudged my attempt to date Welsh by attempting to include the pre-Celtic, aboriginal languages of Britain as ancestral to Welsh. Hence the reference to Stonehenge. I was trying to suggest that the earlier languages may have had, along with later Brythonic variants, an influence on what later became Welsh. Didn't put it very well.

In reply to alan edmonds:

Bede died 730 (or thereabouts)

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:


I deny all knowledge and/or connection with this.

Hmmm... Soon be November 5th. Hmmmm... King James 1st... Isn't there a connection somewhere? Maybe some bright spark can think of one, I can't at the moment. Too many fireworks going off outside to allow me to concentrate on the problem...

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

'The Barbarians...drive us to the sea. The sea drives us back towards the barbarians - we are either slain or drowned.' - Bede writing of 'the groans of the Britons.' Doesn't sound like a very amicable arrangement being reached between the Celts and the Saxons to me! Though I imagine all sorts of deals and treaties were arrived at gradually, after the initial shock of each migratory wave.

In reply to Dominion: A bright spark? - wasn't that nearly the cause of the whole shebang? I'm off to check the cellar for suspicious barrels.............

In reply to Dominion:

And death shall have no Dominion.
Dead men naked they shall be one
With the man in the wind and the west moon;
When their bones are picked clean and the clean bones gone...

Suppose you deny all knowledge and/or connection with this display of literary pyrotechnics too, huh?

In reply to Steve Parker:
"How were the 'Celts' (erroneous umbrella term that it is!) so comprehensively displaced then, if not driven out or exterminated? Or are you suggesting that they merged? They seem to have left scant linguistic evidence if so."

According to 'The Age of Arthur' ( A reasonably serious historical work) The Celts of southern and central areas suffered heavily from Plague in the 5th and 6th centuries as a result of the disease being imported by their trading partners in Aquitane and Spain. Half the population was wiped out.

The Angles and Saxons traded with colder baltic states which didn't have plague so they just marched in and took over large areas of the harvest bowl of Britain, displacing or asimilating Celts. Refugees headed over the channel to Brittany where the land had been vacated by the Romans, and there was plenty of farmland to spare because of plague deaths.

Towards the original posters question. The term Brythonic may partly refer to a tribe prevalent in the north known as the Brigantes - the people of Brigit.

Wikipedia says:

" Proto-Celtic (P-Celtic) language was introduced to Britain from the middle second millennium BC (Hawkes, 1973). Brythonic languages were then spoken at least in the whole of Great Britain south of the rivers Forth and Clyde, presumably also including the Isle of Man."

In reply to tallbloke: Hmm, you may have missed that I was also the OP. Anyway, interesting stuff about plague. I assume there are X number of remains with signs of plague, and/or suggestions in chronicles. There was also the huge power vacuum left by the departure of the Romans.

Yes' I assume the Goddess Brig (Brid, Brigid, Frigg etc.) was connected to the name of the Brigantes, and may have something to do with the overall naming of Britain, probably by the Romans. There is still the other theory to do with 'Britain' referring to 'painted people,' though I find that less convincing, as the use of woad etc. was by no means confined to Britain.

In reply to tallbloke:

Ah, just noticed your Wikipedia reference (that'll teach me to scan properly). Middle second millennium BC. That resurrects my earlier theory about Welsh having an earlier ancestry in Britain than the Celtic migrations.

Ha! Mud in yer eye, Mr. Hooker!

In reply to Steve Parker:

whats this painted people theory?

the earlier connections are worth persuing

In reply to malk: There is a 'Celtic' word, 'pritani' meaning 'painted,' which suggests that Britain may have been named after the habit of the natives of painting themselves with woad. Sounds dubious to me. If it were true, then why aren't there some more countries called something similar. Painting with woad or other dyes was fairly common, as far as I know.

In reply to Steve Parker:
i'll have to consult JC about this- there is nothing in his in dex

In reply to malk: Who is this fabled JC? Jasper Carrot?

In reply to Steve Parker:

remember teardrops exploding?

In reply to Steve Parker:

Methinks you speak too soon! Unless your implying that the Welsh predate the Celts in Britain? It was all a long time ago anyway, I think, at this time of night, we can at least all agree on that.

I always thought the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles were just that: chronicles written over the centuries by anglo-saxon monks. Entries stop with the arrival of the Franco-Norman invasion, which would seem logical.

Gildas and Nennius are interesting reads too.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I was suggesting that ancestral 'Welsh' (as in language) predates the 'Celtic' migration. But, as you suggest, it was certainly all far too long ago for any kind of certainty. Only having a joke, Bruce. Here, let me lend you a tissue for that mud.

In reply to malk: Ah, finally gotcha. Yes. I met him a couple of times in my Liverpool punk rocker days (!). But that was before his later guise as the eco-pagan-authority on everything!

In reply to Steve Parker

he can tune in to the ancient headspace more than most of us methinks

In reply to malk: What was his big book called? I'm not really slagging him off - just having a Friday night larf. In fact, what is his nickname these days?

In reply to Steve Parker:

he's done a couple of big books

one is called 'the modern antiquarian' (chapter 4 for the Brigit landscape)
and more recently 'the megalithic european'

check out http://www.headheritage.co.uk/ if you dare

In reply to malk: The former, I was thinking of. Ooh, do I dare?

In reply to Steve Parker:
" Middle second millennium BC. That resurrects my earlier theory about Welsh having an earlier ancestry in Britain than the Celtic migrations."

Could have been an earlier wave of Celt incomers rather than true 'indigenous brits' though. The Pritani are also said to be the enemies of the Picts (Roman Appelation 'Picti' - painted). Some believe the picts originally had a non indo-european language like Basque but evidence is thin on the ground.

Have a read of this:
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/pictnames/

In reply to tallbloke:

I was more referring to the arrival of the language (through trading) before any large migrations. Remembered something while reading the stuff at your linked site: a good example of how unreliable early accounts can be is the fact that Julius Caesar (in The Conquest of Gaul), while referring to animals native to Germany, mentions unicorns. He doesn't claim to have seen one, but says they are quite common! Well, maybe they were!

In reply to Steve Parker:
From what I've read The P-Celt language (Brythonic) relates to the Baltic - British (Cumbria, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany) trading axis whereas than the Q-Celt (Goidelic) Spanish - Irish/Scottish axis.
Very roughly speaking, the Pre Celtic peoples of the British Isles Were: Hunter-Gatherers(8000-4000BC, Farmers and Megalith builders(4000,2000BC), and the 'Beaker folk'(2000-500BC). Some say the P-Celts (Cimbri) came in from Cimmeria, via Jutland and Gotland and got to Yorkshire around 300BC.

In reply to tallbloke: Blimey, tallbloke, you're a bit on the case for Saturday morning!

Unfortunately, none of the bastards did any real writing, so they haven't left much of a record. Amazing what archaeology can pick out without written records though. There is a site in Langdale which used to be a stone axe 'factory' for something like 500 years during the stone age. Some of the axes have been found as far away as Southern Spain, so obviously a wide trading network. Fascinating stuff, early history. You ever see any of the prehistoric rock markings around Yorkshire? No one has the slightest idea what any of them mean. Possibly just the neolithic version of tagging!

In reply to Steve Parker:
I've been to the axe factory on the side of Harrison Stickle, eerie spot. The marking on the rocks could be astronomical data. Pytheus the Greek called Britain 'The Pretanic Isles' in the 4th Century BC.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/neolithic.htm

In reply to tallbloke:
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas. I've got the book, it's a great read.

In reply to tallbloke:

That's the one I'm on about. Loughrigg, I think it's called. It is eery, isn't it? I tried to imagine dozens of people chipping away. Didn't find any axes though, although they occasionally turn up.

Pretanic Isles is interesting. Wonder if that has any Greek meaning aside from a local name. Could be worth checking out.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Bede quoting Gildas and the chattering classes writing to Rome for help. They may have been exaggerating, and it would be the chattering classes that would loose out. The peasants on the land probably didn't much mind who they paid taxes to, providing they were not too onerous and they were able to get on with the farming.

Y.

In reply to tallbloke:
In the very late 6th Century, the Bernicians (North Northumberland Saxons) were beseiged on Holy island for five days. They only broke the siege when the British fell to fighting amongst themselves.

Then there is the battle at Catterick, described in Y Gododdin, probably about 605 AD

This does not seem consistant with a depopulated Celtic people.

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:

I am not convinced that wealas is so nasty

This is a people that by the 7th Century were happy to accept Dal Riatan, Greek and North African Bishops.

And by the ninth would accept a Welshman as Prime Minister.

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

Harvest bowl of England = southern central counties
Bernicia and Northumberland is a completely different barrel of Britons. Oop Norf they traded with the low countries and scandinavian Baltic people as well as Brits from the south. The north south divide goes back much further than the Romanized south as opposed to the Viking influenced north...

In reply to tallbloke:

Agree

But that is a lot of the point I am trying to make. To say "The Saxons did this to the British" is simplistic when the Saxons came from several areas of Northern Europe (as Bede attests, and as is broadly supported by archeaology), and the British had a varied culture, depending in part on how Romanised they had been.

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf: Well, 'wealas' does have the 'slave' connotation, so fairly nasty. But who knows? It may have only been used in that sense by invading warriors, who presumably often preceded more general influxes, and may not reveal an overall contempt. Although I seem to remember reading a quote somewhere that described the British celts as 'worthless.' But again it's hard to extrapolate from a few quotes to a generalised attitude.

In reply to Steve Parker:

None of which helps with your OP, which is asking where did the Romans get the name "Britain" from?

In reply to Yrmenlaf:
According to what I read:
Part of the deal Vortigern did with the disparate groups od incomers: Saxons, Angles, Jutes etc was to maintain a 'divide and rule policy' of keeping their enclaves separate. They would be tolerated provided they acted as a coastal defence force against further invasion, and kept to their own designated areas. The Saxons were on the Kentish coast, the Bernicians up in Northumberland etc. Later, as their populations grew, the East Anglian contingents territory expanded and merged with that of the Thames tideway and Kent. This at the same time as the plague decimated the population of middle southern Britain. Inevitably the tide of Saxon dominance spread across the south of Britain to make it England. Arthur, following from Vortigerns leadership, tried to rally the disparate British tribes agianst the overthrow of the Romanised order, but ultimately he was fighting a losing battle, despite some notable victories at Badon Hill etc. As has been pointed out, the peasant stock probably weren't too bothered who ran things, as long as they could get on with their own lives.

The 'Britons' were Romanised older Celtic stock who displaced the late Neolithic pre-celts (Pritani = Picts?). The 'English' were mongrel Celt/Germanic stock expanding out of Europe towards the furthest reaches of the known world. The biggest difference between them was that the Brits had 400 years of Roman stability and enculturation, whereas the invading Angles, Jutes etc were 'mongrel Barbarians'. They both came from the centre of Europe, in succeding waves heading west...

In reply to Yrmenlaf:
In reply to Steve Parker:
"None of which helps with your OP, which is asking where did the Romans get the name "Britain" from?"

Julias Ceasar's 'Brittania' is probably a bastardisation of Pytheas' 'Pritani'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas
"He recorded the local name of the islands in Greek as Prettanike, which Diodorus later rendered Pretannia. This supports theories that the inhabitants called themselves Pretani or Priteni, 'Painted' or 'Tattooed' people, a term Romans Latinised as Picti (Picts). He is quoted as referring to the British Isles as the "Isles of the Pretani."

In reply to astrecks:

It's not incorrect. It's a ploy to move us up the procession. Would you want to be at the back with Uruguay?

In reply to Steve Parker: and 100

In reply to tallbloke:

That seems a fair summary, athough I am sure that one could find any number of important scholars to disagree with any part of it.

I think that is why I enjoy that period of history so much. The evidence is so fragmentary, and capable of so many explanations.

Y.

In reply to The Crow:


LOL

Y.

In reply to tallbloke:
That to me seems more likely than the godess Brid.

Does Pytheas have to go on my "to read" list as well? It is growing faster than I can read!

Y.

In reply to tallbloke:

you are starting to sway me with this pretani theory

do you know how old the Bretons name is and how they fit into all this?

In reply to Steve Parker: France

In reply to Yrmenlaf:
" I am sure that one could find any number of important scholars to disagree with any part of it."

You'd only have to find two and they'd start disagreeing with each other.

In reply to Steve Parker:

yep, these cup-and-ring markings are very mysterious

fertility symbols, mapping the local landscape, star maps- who knows?

i've visited quite a few
one of the first was at cairnbaan, where i noticed a similarity with the constellation Orion

i'm less convinced now, but here it is:

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/41588

In reply to malk:
"do you know how old the Bretons name is and how they fit into all this?"

The Bretons shared the same P-Celtic tongue with the Welsh and Cornish. In fact there are plenty of kings in antiquity who ruled over both Cornwall and Brittany, right up to the 7th century. Just like the Pillars of Hercules guarded the Strait of Gibralter and were controlled by the Phoenicians, The Mount of St michael and Mont Saint Michel guarded the flanks of the english channel and were controlled by the Celt kings of old. The sea was the principle route of commerce, and taxes had to be levied...

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

But does anyone know what 'Pritani' means? It won't just be arbitrary, will it? It must either be descriptive or else derived from a name the Celts gave themselves, I would assume. My theory ain't dead yet!

In reply to The Crow:

I don't mind being at the back with Uruguay, but the U.S.A?.....no thanks!

Jeff C

In reply to tallbloke:

i'd like to read more about this sort of thing- can you recommend anything?

In reply to malk:

You could start here: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html

All original texts and all free. Enough for several life times!

In the brief hiatus before Tallbloke turns up a scroll from 226 AD with the full etymology of the name 'Britain' on it in the Futhark script:

Back to the peaceful assimilation theory - if the Mabinogi (correct spelling) is any indication of the mindset of the Celtic chieftains, I can't imagine them welcoming the Saxons etc. with open arms. Whatever the reality of the gradual settlement, I think Bran the Blessed, Pwyll and Prince Pryderi would have been a little less than friendly to anyone intending to settle their lands. The Mabinogi also gives some idea of the social structures and power bases. Bran's seat of power was evidently London, though he came from Wales. His head is supposed to be buried at the site of the Tower of London, where it gives warning of invasion. His name (Vran) means raven - hence the ravens at the T of L to this day. Anyone familiar with the Mabinogi? Interesting stuff.

In reply to Steve Parker:

check out bettany hughes on ch 4 now

In reply to Steve Parker:
"But does anyone know what 'Pritani' means? It won't just be arbitrary, will it? It must either be descriptive or else derived from a name the Celts gave themselves, I would assume. My theory ain't dead yet!"

At the risk of repeating my references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas
" He recorded the local name of the islands in Greek as Prettanike, which Diodorus later rendered Pretannia. This supports theories that the inhabitants called themselves Pretani or Priteni, 'Painted' or 'Tattooed' people, a term Romans Latinised as Picti (Picts). He is quoted as referring to the British Isles as the "Isles of the Pretani."

I think it's clear that "Pritani" is the word the P-Celts Pytheas conversed with used to describe themselves. It's not a Greek word, it's in the indiginous patois.

In reply to tallbloke: Exactly. So WTF does it mean? Maybe painted. Maybe a reference to a tutelary godform.

In reply to tallbloke:

I am uneasy with this as it stands

Firstly, I had not heard (until John Morris) that Picti was anything other than Latin

Second, nearly all the Germanic tribes did tattoos. Think of the Tollund Man. So it is not such a good distinguishing mark.

Third, it seems a strange name to call yourself (sorry Tattoo2005)

Two and three vanish if only the Picts did it properly (in their opinion)

Y.

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:


I thought that was Viking. The Saxons used a slightly different runic script


I've read it. I felt like a Brid worshipper might feel if they read "Narnia": that there were allegories there that I just was not getting. So I wouldn't say I was familiar with it.

Whats with the white greyhounds with the red ears, for example?

Y.

In reply to malk:
"i'd like to read more about this sort of thing- can you recommend anything?"


For megalithic stuff with a pinch of fancy: http://www.hiramkey.force9.co.uk/uriel.html Don't chuck the baby out with the bathwater, there are some gems of info in this book.

For the voyage of Pytheas the Greek: http://www.nnbtv.dircon.co.uk/Books/2002/Pytheas.html A really enjoyable read for a day.

For the dark ages: http://www.worldreviews.com/BOOK0016_JAN2005.htm This one will keep you going for weeks, if not years.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

re tom chadwin

he's an ancient historian i used to work with (at a web design company) who has links with bedes world (his gf works there i think)

would be good to have his input

In reply to tallbloke:

I have just finished "AD 500" by Simon Yates, which is a (fictional) acount of a visit by an ambassador from Byzantium to Britain in (you've guessed it) 500AD

I thought it gave a good flavour, although there were some anomolies (for example, Stephen of Ripon, 720AD as a source).

I ended up emailing the bloke to see where he got his reference to freeze distilled beer.

Y.

In reply to malk:

There is a Tom whose gf is Laura Sole, Curator of Bede's World.

I speak to him occasionally. Wouldn't say I know him (for example, I don't know his surname!)

The two re-enactment societies I belong to work for Bede's World from time to time. I will be there over Christmas and Easter

(end of commercial break)

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

well you do now- a bit of a polymath

http://www.chadwin.net/

In reply to malk:

Well, it is a small world is it not.

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:
"Firstly, I had not heard (until John Morris) that Picti was anything other than Latin"

It isn't. Picti is a Latin word, full stop.

It wasn't John Morris (Who wrote The age of Arthur) but Barry cunliffe who wrote the book about Pytheas the Greek who mentions Diodorus' word "Pritannia" as being derived from Pytheas' reportage of the Brits self description as being 'Pritani'.

In reply to tallbloke:

Sorry. I had misunderstood what you had written. Despite your having written it twice.

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:
Maybe I didn't make it clear. It's getting late and the beer is good.

In reply to tallbloke:

Mine's a whiskey. Blended, I am afraid.

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf: Man, this has turned into a good thread! But I still don't get any evidence that 'Britain' is not derived from 'Brig' or 'Brid' etc. It seems pretty clear that the various forms of 'prytani' may mean either 'painted' or might be a reference to a tutelary goddess, as was the norm.

In reply to Steve Parker:
" So WTF does it mean? Maybe painted. Maybe a reference to a tutelary godform."

Well, speculation on a postcard. But maybe their own understanding of the word carried a lot more symbolic and or spiritual significance than just 'painted' or 'tattooed'. Maybe the act of submission to tattoeing by the tribal druid or shaman was a spiritual experience for the individual. After all, being tattoed is painful enough using modern methods, let alone bone needles. Enough to put them into a trance like state maybe. A rite of passage, as well as strengthening their tribal bonds and identity.

In reply to tallbloke: Maybe, though you're guessing, and maybe the Goddess Brig was pretty important. I like your reasoning as it is imaginative, and I have been through some similarly influential rites of passage. Maybe the best we can do, at such a great distance, is guess!

In reply to Steve Parker:
Brigit was certainly important to the Brigantes. Perhaps as important as shamanistic tattooing rites were to the Pritani. There was certainly a wide variety of cultures knocking around on our islands back then! Which of them are the original 'Britons' is a moot point I guess. maybe they all are...

Night all.

In reply to malk:

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/BASQUES.html

take the bit about the basques settling in Britain with a pinch of salt, (but check out the link), but the rest of this page has some good stuff including the following concluding gem:

"By this time, the Prytani constituted only about ten per cent of the population of northern Britain. The Prytani had had 69 recorded kings in their kingdom, and the most enduring legacy they left was the naming of their island after themselves: Britain, after Ynis Prydain."

And on the subject of Pictish/prytani king names:

http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/jonespictishmem/

In reply to tallbloke:

In case you don't know, 'Ynis' means island in Welsh. The question then is why were they called the Prytani or Prydani? I bet you a swathe of cleared northern forest they worshipped Brid/Frigg/Freya along with most of Northern Europe at the time. Whether the name means that is a moot point. Wonder if there are any similar words surviving in Welsh.

Hmm, this link is to a list of 'pryd' forms in Welsh. Nothing too suggestive. Beautiful? The beautiful people? The anxious people? The poetic people?

http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/LexiconForms.html

In reply to tallbloke:

DNA evidence suggest that the "Celts" aren't actually "Celts" at all . The areas of the British Isles that have the most distinctive DNA are Western Ireland , Cornwall , and West and North Wales and the best relationship is with DNA from the Iberian peninsula (which I have seen desribed as Basque but I don't think exclusively so ). Perhaps the Basque migration theory isn't so silly after all .

In reply to Postmanpat:

Or is it just that those places best preserve the pre - celtic genetic material.

In reply to Steve Parker:

pryd and brid are pretty similar sounding - i wonder if this is just a coincidence?

In reply to tallbloke:

thanks tallbloke, i'll check them out

In reply to Steve Parker:
>The poetic people?

Well they did have a verbal non-written tradition passed on in verse form for easier memorising...

prydydd [-ion, m.]
(n.) poet, bard

Could this be a root of the word Priest?

In reply to tallbloke:

other guise of brid was as a poetry goddess (as you prob know)

'in medieval irish poetry Mary was identified with Brigit, Goddess of Poetry' (from R.Graves-the white goddess)

mr cope argues that 'if in their most devout period, the irish lauded Bridget as the Virgin Mary, it places Brigit centrally as one of the most ancient British Goddesses of all'

In reply to malk & tallbloke:

Don't know about the priest thing. Maybe. If the priests were druids, then the Welsh term is 'derwydd' meaning 'oak-seer.' Oak trees were especially venerated as they were associated with lightning and therefore, symbolically, with spiritual enlightenment. The Nazis resurrected a bit of this North European mythos in their insignia (oak-leaves and lightning flashes). But certainly poetry and the bardic schools were closely linked to the Druidic tradition, and poetry was considered a sacred, spiritual discipline. The classic study of all that stuff is the White Goddess, which Malk referred to. So the poetic people may make sense.

Brigit/Brig/Brid/Frigg/Freya is certainly very ancient. As well as merging with the Virgin Mary, most of the place names associated with her were later christianised as Saint Bridget, lots of examples of which occur in Ireland. She was originally a fertility goddess (hence the associated words, breed, bride etc.), and wells were often considered to be associated with her worship. There is still an ancient tradition in Ireland of tying pieces of cloth onto bushes etc near wells and springs when begging a favour from Saint Bridget (Brid). This may be the origin of the wishing well idea.

In reply to Steve Parker:
It seems to me that U have got your answer or as close as possible. Would you know about where the name of France is coming from? I don't know myself.

In reply to Sandrine:

Off the top of my head I recall something about a tribe called the Parhesias, who were supposed to have settled somewhere near what is now Paris (hence the name). They were renowned for their honesty, and attracted the name 'Franks,' which later became generally used. I also seem to recall that this colourful story may have been discredited.

In reply to Steve Parker:
never heard of that story before (apart from the Parisi) are U sure U are not pulling my leg?

In reply to Sandrine: I'm not pulling your leg, but I don't necessarily believe the story. Didn't make it up though!

In reply to Sandrine:
German for france is Frank-Reich which is a clue. The Frankish kings origins are shrouded in mystery (see Merovingians), but may be linked to the Jews who fled Roman controlled Palestine in the 1st century. See Holy Blood Holy Grail and all the hunting of the snark it entails.

What is well recorded is the conversion of Clovis to christianity at his wifes insistence and a deal done with the Roman church to be recognised the temporal power on earth if he recognised the Pope as the spiritual power. Then successor King Dagobert got murdered by Pepin the fat (the mayor of the palace) and the Frankish power was usurped by the Carolingian dynasty starting with Pepin's grandson Charlemagne, crowned and annointed by the pope in 860 or thereabouts.

In reply to Steve Parker:

maybe in her name, but her true orgins were as a fire goddess?

In reply to Steve Parker:

France is named after the Franks - one of the many peoples from what we now call N Europe and who moved West and South with other barbarians. It was not a mass invasion and the Gauls were not wiped out - they were more a warrior ruling class that took over. Being cunning they aligned themselves on Roman values and symbols and Clovis became christian as said - they even adopted the language, a sort of dog Latin that became French.

This doesn't answer where they got their name "Franks" from though.

The Parisi were one of the many tribes in Gaul and set themselves up in ... Paris. I have seen an article with a map of British tribes which showed some Parisi in Britain too. Other tribes were Meldes around Meaux and Melun, Sennois around Sens etc. Many of the major towns in France are named after the tribes that had them as their capital.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

So do you know any good sources (in English) on the 6th - 7th Century History of France.

You get snippets from English writers. For Example, Stephen of Ripon reports that Bishop Wilfrid provided an army to reinstate (I think) Dagobert II, but I cannot find any simple books that would put this in a French context.

Y.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Well there is the neat legend I referred to above. You familiar with it? If I remember right, the word 'parhesias' (parisi) meant 'frank' in Greek. Perhaps a little too neat!

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

There's this on my site (a well known reference to historical veracity!): http://perso.chello.fr/users/b/bhooker/history/franks.htm

Which will send you to the "History of the Franks" by Gregoire de Tours. It is translated from the original Latin into English, so you gain nothing by getting a French version. I found it an excellent read for a book written over 1400 years ago.

It comes from the Medieval Source book: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html which has a lot of other good stuff.

Reading Caesar's Gallic Wars is a good intro too - you can follow the campaigns on a map of modern France and pop up to see the oppidum of Bibracte where he wrote a lot of it on your way down to the alps - there's a very good museum there.

In the Paris area near Senlis you can still see the site of another Gallic oppidum and the remains of the earthworks built by the Romans during the siege. It makes you realise just how recent all this was and

In reply to all: What a good thread this has turned into! What obscure branch of history should the Time Team investigate next?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

And...

Cliffhanger? When's the next installment?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I'll check those out, thanks.

I am most interested by how dark ages French history fits into dark ages English

Does anyone know anything about early French language? I gather there were two, a Northern language and a Southern. How different were they: for example, were they mutually intelligable.

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:

As has probably been pointed out we don't know why the Romans chose the name for this nook of their Empire, although there are several boring theories.

More interesting is the revival of the term (after not being used for hundreds of years) as part of the dodgy attempt to justify the Union - reeking of ambitions of Empire and utterly innappropriate except as part of a propaganda campaign. Surely it's time this embarrassing Latinism was dropped outside of its double historical context.

In reply to Steve Parker: Steve - you've started a cracker of a thread here - no bitching, no ignoramii, just a load of interesting info from people who seem to know what they're discussing - superb, keep it coming, I'm learning loads. I keep dipping in and out during tea/lunch breaks (Steve -what do you do to be able to spend so much time posting!?
You've already covered Pryderi of the Mabinogion, which means "Worry" or "Thoughtful" in modern Welsh - ties in with your "anxious people". However, there's a heap of other words starting with "Pryd" (he says checking his "Geiriadur Mawr (Big Dictionary)!) - a lot of them revolving around making poetry or being a poet........ Prydain = "The poetic people" as you say?
As Bryd was supposed to have been Goddess of poetry (amongst a host of other things!), you may have a connection.....
Anybody know what the root of "Dail" is in Irish - could it tie in with the Welsh dail (leaves) - the druids were supposedly in to all their tree imagery so the "Leaves of Brydda" could be a possibility in a extremely hippy kind of way..... Britain = "The leaves of the goddess of Fire and peotry" - I think we should start a referendum to rename ourselves before the next Olympics, what do you think!
Cheers folks
Deri

In reply to Deri Jones: Nice one, Deri. Good input. Where do you get that 'Bryd... goddess of poetry' bit from? If you've got a real reference for that, that is crucial! Good to hear from a fellow Celt as well! Croeso!

In reply to Witkacy:
I came across a rather interesting reference to Sir John Dee (Eliabeth I's astrologer, among other things), predicting the rise of a 'British Empire' and referring to 'Britannia'. Was this propaganda carefully crafted to engender a feeling of unity in a socially, religiously, and racially fractured Kingdom? Perhaps 'Britannia' had an emotional appeal then which overcame the difference between Welsh, English and Scot, Protestant and Catholic, noble and peasant; harking back to a mythic Golden Age where the brave and indomitable Brit stood up to Roman, Norse and Frank. Who is the female 'Britannia' figure enthroned with union shield on the back of the old penny?

In reply to Deri Jones: BTW, you may be interested to know that the word 'Mabinogion' is an error created by English scholars. The real Welsh name is just Mabinogi. (Not sure what it means, but it suggests something about brothers to me)Don't accept any counterfeits!

Why am I able to post so much? Well, it's a long story, But I'm trying to do some writing ATM, and spend a lot of time dipping in and out of the net.

"I think the Northumbrian Saxons were much more inclined to make treaties with the Celts, whereas the Mercian Saxons were more minded to destroy them "
- the North was settled by Angles, not Saxons. This explains the massive and obvious difference in vowels in the North and the South.

The Saesnaeg/Sassenachs weren't popular with many people, however they were better than the Norman invaders who destroyed a whole lifestyle and the psyche of a nation. It is ironic that the Welsh (walesc "strangers") and the Scots slag off the 'Saxons' so much when their personal axe should be ground with such as Edward I - who was not the first Edward but the first one since England was invaded by William the Bastard - who bore the appelation 'Hammer of the Scots' - he was a Norman not a Saxon. The Anglo-Saxons suffered at least as much from the Norman invasion as the Celts/Gaels.
As we all suffer still.

Priest is derived from 'Presbyter' (elder) from the Latin word for 'old' (presbus).

In reply to tallbloke: Yes, John Dee (the original 007 - did you know that?) was into that unified spiritual Britain, as was Blake after him. There were many short-lived movements and cults suggesting things like Britain was some kind of divinely created nation. Hence Blake and Jerusalem. And did those feet in ancient time...

In reply to Crispy haddock:

Yes, the Norman invasion was pretty comprehensive. I take bizarre comfort from the fact that the Normans were, in fact, Vikings. They had only been in Normandy for 100 years. Nor man - Norse man... Their first king was Rollo, if I remember right. What a good name! Better than being conquered by the Aquitaine French, anyway! Ha!

In reply to Crispy haddock:

Anyway, I don't think they destroyed the psyche of a nation. I think they made it more survivalist and better equipped to become the quite astonishing martial and linguistic force that it later became.

In reply to Steve Parker: Why do you prefer Normans to Aquitaine French?

In reply to Crispy haddock:


You are right in your first point. I was being loose with language (using "Saxon" as shorthand for "Germanic Tribesman" or something)

I thought the vowel changes, etc. had more to do with the Danelaw. Although Northumbrian OE is different from Mercian OE, the differences are not so huge.

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:

So a small group of vikings move into Northern France, and wholeheartedly start speaking French, almost within a generation.

They then invade England, and utterly fail to speak English for several hundred years.

Why?

Y.

In reply to Crispy haddock:


I have heard him called William the lucky bastard

Was it not one of the Edwards who was hammer of the Scots?

Y.

Aye, and the Russians, too were Vikings, the 'Rus'.

Small world.

My fave period of history.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:
You mis-read. How about if I use brackets instead of dashes??
"such as Edward I (who was not the first Edward but the first one since England was invaded by William the Bastard) who bore the appelation 'Hammer of the Scots'

In reply to Sandrine: Coz I'm a bit racist? Maybe the overall antagonism to the French has filtered down through the ages from the conquest. Strange, but somehow I'm happier with having been conquered by some Norse settlers in Northern France than I would be by the idea of being conquered by those people we now know as French. Ridiculous, I know. I actually like the French as well, unlike many British people. Just a hypnotic and slightly shameful bit of brainwashing, probably! Having said that, the French are equally contemptuous of the British, at least from a distance. Funny how these daft projections are only really active at a distance. We all get on very well when we're thrown together in a sinking ship. Vive les Franglaise!

In reply to Steve Parker:I am not sure the French are equally contemptuous of the English, in fact I think they are less contemptuous of the English than they are of the Belgians. Of course I haven't done any stat on the subject...
Which sinking ship are U talking about?

In reply to Yrmenlaf:



I'm not talking about the so-called 'great vowel-shift', but about the different accents, most obvious in how certain vowels are pronounced.

The Danes spoke a language which was very similar to Old English (unlike the walesc) so they could understand one another just about, but the language lost its inflections in order to simplify itself. Here in the North many of what we consider are 'dialect words are Viking ones.

A very amusing one comes out if you consider that 'Lego' comes from Denmark and is a corruption of the Danish for 'play well'. Dialect up here for 'play well' is 'Laik good'. say it quickly and you have it

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

Yes, quite astonishing. Perhaps to do with the superiority of French culture at the time and the desirability of it. Remember the Roman precept of conquering by wine and lifestyle? Maybe they encountered a better way of life? I'm guessing, but it is a fact that within 100 years the Norse invaders of Normandy had become 'French.' They would also become English, but only after injecting a lot of their language into the melting pot. Don't know the answer to that one.

In reply to Steve Parker:


Around 30% of the invading force were Breton. Not much love lost between them and the Normen, but William the Bastard needed Horsemen, and the Bretons were (and this is my pet theory) damned if they were going to let the Normen take over *the auld country* and keep all the spoils. Race memory persists around 300 years before it become legend, and with British refugees pouring into Brittany in 450ad and 650ad, I reckon they probably had a pretty good grasp of the history of the overthrow of the 'Brits' by the Angles and Saxons. The Prydani of the north had more in common with the Norse than the Saxon anyway, so allying with the Normen to invade Anglo-Saxon England would have seemed a reasonable proposition and a good chance for some payback and land re-aquisition.

In reply to tallbloke:

Okay, tallbloke (how tall are you?!!), what's your best guess at this point, given all the above, about the origin of the name 'Britain?'

In reply to Yrmenlaf:


"Utterly fail to speak" is a bit harsh. I have heard it told that eventually the Normans in England had a habit of marrying the local girls and that the nannies employed were local. Thus the children grew up learning Middle English then Latin for scholarship and lastly Norman French to talk with their father. Thus they learned English at home at French in school.

However, the kings spoke Norman French for up to 300 years. English, did survive and grow and take back over. Several reasons:-
1. English was extremely well-established, not just as a vernacular tongue, but as a scholarly tongue - as in the Anglo-saxon Chronicle, unique in its use of a vernacular language and not Latin - thanks to the efforts of Alfred who insisted that great swathes of latin text e.g the book of Common Prayer was translated into English so that the common people could understand that they were saying/praying. he did a lot of the translation himself.

2. It had fused with the Viking languages, especially in the Danelaw, and has lost its inflections and was relatively easy to speak well.

3. There were relatively few Normans in England compared to the number of Angles, Saxons and Jutes that came over in the fifth century.

What is not surprising is that they kept speaking Norman French *in court* for so long but that English, after the utter devastation of 'scorched earth' and 'the harrying of the North' survived at all. One chronicaler said 100 years after 1066, "the 2 nations have become so mixed that it is scarcely possible today, speaking of free man, to tell who is English and who is of Norman trace"

4. In 1204, the Norman-English lost control of their French lands over the channel.

In reply to Steve Parker:

The height of nonsense


Folk are always calling other folk names.

If as you say, Brigit was worshipped all over Northern Europe, why would our islands be singled out as being the most fervent? My money is on the Pritani, the Tattooed Poet warrior priests. Bad people to mess with. The Romans used to tell a joke: A pict jumps out from behind a tree and challenges a Centurion to send ten men to fight him. When the ten don't return he sends sixty. One staggers back and says to the centurion as he dies.
"They cheated sir, there were three of them."

In reply to tallbloke: That is the sticking point. If Brig (etc) was worshipped all over the place, then why would we... Having said that, we don't know the origins of Ordovices or Silures either. I don't know if there is much evidence for tribe-naming after tutelary gods, but there was certainly plenty of place naming.

PS. Was Obelix one of the 3?

what's your best guess at this point, given all the above, about the origin of the name 'Britain?'

My dictionary says 'British' from Old English 'Brettisc' from 'Bret' from the Latin 'Britto'.

In reply to Steve Parker:


Aye but the Ordovices and Silures were aboriginal tribes. As were the Cantii after whom Kent was named (which explains the different initial letter of Canterbury). To try to find out WHY the Cantii, Silures etc were called that is like saying why are you called 'Steve' or 'why is orange called orange'? is it after the fruit or the colour?....

In reply to Crispy haddock:
In the cases you cite, I would agree, though I think in the case of 'Britain' it is more likely to have a findable origin. More like Crispy Haddock than Steve Parker, I'd say.

In reply to Crispy haddock:


It's not just ironic it's ridiculous .The lowland Scots and parts of Wales are probably as "Saxon" as the English .

Essentially the Normans did the same to the Scots and Welsh , many of them Saxons, as they had done to the English but less comprehensively ie.Wiped out the ruling class and took all the land . The strenght of class consciousness in the UK surely owes much to the meory of this takeover by an alien ruling class .

In reply to Postmanpat:

Aye, which is why I laugh in a hollow sort of way when the Irish call the English "Brits"! Aren't they more likely to be the descendents of the Brits?!

In reply to Crispy haddock:

"Many Basque words have entered other European languages. For example, laranga ('that which was first eaten') is the origin of the word orange (one of the few words in the English language that no other word rhymes with)"

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/BASQUES.html

In reply to Crispy haddock:

And the Romans got it off Diadorus' 'Pretannia' and he got it off Pytheas who referred to the 'Pretanic islands' after the local people who referred TO THEMSELVES as 'Pritani'.

Do keep up at the back

In reply to tallbloke:
(one of the few words in the English language that no other word rhymes with)"
Aye, and another one is 'cushion' IIRC

In reply to tallbloke:


Nay, 'Britto' is a corruption of 'Brillo' - the natives had wiry hair.
Everyone knows this

In reply to Crispy haddock:

Nonsense,

The bigger the cushion, the better the pushin'.

See?

In reply to Steve Parker:

Just read the OP.

The Angles came from a place in Schleswig which was called "Angul". It got its name due to the shape of the territory - Angul was a hook-shaped area, from the same root as 'angling'.

In reply to tallbloke:


See? See what, exactly? That you are phonically bereft?

;oP

In reply to Crispy haddock:

Well that's he study of language for you. It's like going to a good restaurant... ...and eating the menu.

:-P',',',','

In reply to tallbloke:
I hope that last emoticon wasn't you dribbling
<grin>

In reply to Crispy haddock:

I'm blowing raspberries, not trying to suck oranges

Gosh it's late. Hope to continue tomorrow - excellent thread
Good night

In reply to Crispy haddock:

Fishing for a good time
Starts with casting in your line.

)

In reply to Crispy haddock:

Isn't it? My favourite thread yet. Better get clued up, geezer! I'm hanging on for grim death to my Brid theory!

In reply to Steve Parker:

I hope you are doing progressive saves on this if it is so good?

In reply to sutty: Already have done a couple. certainly intend to capture it before it disappears. Fantastic thread!

In reply to Steve Parker:

http://www.daire.org/names/celtirishfem.html

Briana &#8212; (BREE-a-na) female form of Brian, probably from brig, "high, noble"; possibly "strong" and a variant of Brighid. Breanne, Brina, Breanna, Breann, Brianna, Briona, Bryna, Bryana, Riana. - WELSH form Bronwen???

Brid &#8212; (BREED) Old Irish goddess name from Celtic brig "power, renown, mighty". Most famous woman saint of Ireland is Brigid (patron saint of scholars), who was abbess of Kildare, previously the site of the shrine of a pagan goddess of the same name. In myth, there were three sister goddesses of the Tuatha De Danaan named Brigid: goddess of poetry; goddess of healing; and the goddess of smith work. Brighid (BRI-jid), Bride, Brietta, Brigid, Brigit, Bridget, Briggitte, Breeda, Berget, Bridey, Bryg, Gitta, Bríghid (BRIDE). Nicknames &#8212; Bridie, Bidelia, Bidina, Breda.

Brina &#8212; "protector", or "speckled".

Brit &#8212; "speckled, spotted, freckled" or "strength"; form of Brittania. Version of Bretta; Britta, Brites.

Bretta &#8212; "from Britain". Bret, Brett, Brit, Brite, Brittany, Brita.

Looks like Brig is distinct from Brit.

Very interesting definition of Brit: Speckled, Spotted, Freckled - *TATTOOED*???

Irish Celt Briona = Welsh Bronwen?

Tuatha De Danaan - Pre Celtic tribe whose captive daughters, according to loegend, were given to the Prytani in exchange for peace in Scotland between Dal Riada and Pictish Kings.

Three sisters: Poetry - Healing and smith work. Pre Roman Britain was well known for it's smelting of tin ore in Cornwall. They exported all over the known world. The poetry thing we've already covered, and the healing, well, pass another hornfull of that heather ale.

In reply to Steve Parker: Steve, I got the Bryd link from
http://tinyurl.com/9lbfh
most of which I would treat with a big pinch a'
But it looks like the basics tie in with Tallblokes site - the three sisters thing explains how they managed to get about so much!
Also here: http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/gods&goddesses/celtic/brigid.html

On the Mabinogi front - tut, tut, I should have known better (Deri being short for Pryderi!)

In reply to tallbloke:

The Tuatha de Danaan, or children of Danu, are my ancestral Irish tribe. More locally, they were the Ui Faicra Aidne, native to Galway, but supposed to have originated in Spain. Now you're getting personal!

They supposedly were pretty much wiped out by a later invasion and went to dwell in the 'hollow hills.' They were also supposed to have been the 'fairies.' Which kind of makes me a fairy, I guess! Chortle.

In reply to Deri Jones: Pryderi - the anxious one? Pryderi had good reason to be anxious. Getting dragged off into the underworld 'n' all that!

In reply to Steve Parker:


Well I traced my family back to a C10th Breton called Spirewic, but you've got a bit further!


According to:
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/BASQUES.html
"In 741 AD, the Prytani King Oengus launched a campaign that nearly wiped out the Celts in the south. He even crossed to Ireland to fight Celts there, and was only persuaded to stop fighting by an offer from the Celts to give the Prytani all the women descendents of the Tuatha de Danann held in bondage by the Celts. These descendents of the Tuantha de Dannan had been kept in captivity because of a plea by the Egyptian Princess Scotus, originally the wife of the great Celtic warrior Milesius, who died in Spain before the Celts invaded Ireland. Scotus had come to Ireland as the third wife of Eremon, who was one of the eight sons of Milesius, and the first ruler of the Celts in Ireland (after he killed his brother Eber and the Druid Amergin). Scotus had pleaded for the lives of the conquered Tuatha de Dannan, so Eremon had spared a few of them and kept them in perpetual bondage. A thousand years of fighting invaders had left the Prytani with a diminished population, so Oengus accepted."

In reply to Crispy haddock:
Nor was I - that was much later. My understanding is that the difference between the vowel sounds in Northern England and Southern England is largely because Northern England was ceded (sp) to the vikings in Alfred the Great's treaty with them, and not because the 5/6th Century Germanic settlers of Northumbria and the 5/6th Century settlers of Southhumbria came from different parts of Europe

I may, of course, be wrong.

Y.

In reply to Crispy haddock:

Yes, I agree I was being a bit over simplistic, and that your analysis is sound.

The fact remains that some vikings came to modern Normandy, and were happy to embrace the vernacular lingo. When their grandchildren (give or take a "great") came to modern Britian, they held onto the Norman language, at least in court.

Y.

In reply to tallbloke:



needs further clarification i think
distinct from brid and pryd also?


i was going to mention our tin reserves, as maybe a significant factor when the bronze users started to arrive about 5000 years ago

these new fire alchemists would only have reinforced the fire goddess
(and poetically into her later guises?)

In reply to tallbloke:


"When challenged to rhyme Orange,
Scotsman Angus Warren J
amieson (who sports his kilt and sporran) g
enially observer: "Citrus fruits are foreign: j
affas, for example, come from Isreal, One old florin j
ust about would buy a bagfull. Who says you can't rhyme orange"

(After Ron Rubin)

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Agree an excellent thread, Steve. Thankfully, I was off work with a walrus last week, so could join in. Now I have my two sons clamouring for the 'pooter, and will have to stop 'til they go to bed.

Wæs þu hal

Y.

In reply to Steve Parker:

if only history had been so interesting in school

is this your neverending story thread in a new guise?

In reply to tallbloke:

That'd be the famous Spirewic Tallblokic then? ;0)

Actually, a relative of mine traced our family history back as far as an Irish King called Guaire the Hospitable, King of Connaught and one of the jings of the Ui Faicra Aidne and the Tuatha de Danaan. Aidne came down through history as Hines, Hynes and O Hynes, which was my Grandmother's maiden name. Unfortunately, I suspect half of New York may also be descended from King Guaire!

In reply to Steve Parker:
Which century was that?

In reply to malk:


Well there might be a niche for an ongoing research thread on UKC! I suspect we've hit the wall with the Britain thing. I can't see us establishing whether Prytani means painted, poetic or Brid-worshipping. Could be all 3, I suppose, but I think we are going to be limited to speculation. Unless tallbloke the resourceful, Great Great Grandson of Spirewic, finds any more clues. I personally think that the painted idea is unlikely, as it would more likely be used descriptively by an outsider, rather than used by a tribe to distinguish itself from other tribes. Given the wide usage of god names as names of peoples and places, I still tend towards that one. The poetry could be a related concept, as poetry was certainly considered to be divinely inspired.

In reply to Steve Parker:

>poetry was certainly considered to be divinely inspired.

light and fire were surely more divneley inspired in earlier times (tin connection)

In reply to Steve Parker:

No, there's still a bit more to say on this. I've been v busy, then away, so have followed this thread with interest. The Pretani name was what they were reported to call themselves, but of course that doesnt necessarily mean that it meant 'painted', even if it sounded like that to the Romans. Brid/Briga is also a bit dubious, being much more closely associated with the Irish Celts. I think over history an enormous amount of conflation goes on, and that a name is often something much older that then gets misunderstood as meaning something else. All the more understandable, long before the written word (among the indigenous peoples).

I'll post in a while some further suggestions re some possibly more ancient derivations of the word.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: What a classic Stainforthian cliffhanger! ;0) Await with interest.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

dear gordon,

you've got to about 5000 years to beat (in my book)

looking forward to hearing from your researches

regards, malk

In reply to Steve Parker:

According to my daughter completing her PHD at Cambridge in Celtic studies Picti = painted and there is no evidence that Prytani = painted.

In reply to alan edmonds:

Thanks for that, Alan. I think Gordon may have got it right when he said something about 'whatever it sounded like to the Romans.' The confusion may indeed just be a rough homophonic thing, as many others have been. It's all getting a little speculative, but if 'painted' is discounted, that leaves poetic and/or Brid-worshipping. I still favour the latter (or both). The prevalence of Brid in Ireland, as Gordon points up, is, I think, more to do with the greater overall survival of Celtic forms in Ireland than anywhere else in the local island group, apart from, maybe, the Isle of Man, whose name is itself a vestigial echo of the legendary Celtic/Irish god-hero Manannan, and his Welsh counterpart, Manawyddan.

A similar example of this kind of usage is the word 'Egypt,' which is supposed to be a rather corrupted expression of something along the lines of 'Aegis Ptah,' Ptah being one of the cosmogenic Egyptian gods, and 'aegis' meaning something like 'protected by' or 'protectorate of.' Aegis is also specifically Zeus's shield, if I remember right, so another example of merging mythologies and the resultant corruption. There are many others.

In reply to Steve Parker:
Why do you think Prydein refers to the people, rather than the place? Let's recall what we know for certain - at some date around 300 BC, the traveller Pytheas reports his trip to a place called, presumably either by its own inhabitants or the people who regularly travel to it, the Prettanic Islands. This name gets taken up by the Romans, who turn it into Brittania, and survives in the local vernacular as Ynys Prydein. A name like that could either refer to a geographical entity, a political entity, or could refer to some common kind of ethnic identity that people feel. We know for certain that there was nothing approaching a unified political entity in Britain in 300 BC - it was probably only by 100 BC that even regional political structures were beginning to emerge. In the absence of a political entity, why would people develop any common cultural identity? The only answer that makes sense to me is if they were confronting some external threat - people often define themselves in response to some "other". For Britain, that "other" was presumably the Romans in the first instance, and then after the collapse of the Roman state the Saxons and the Irish in roughly equal measures. So, once again, 300 BC is too early for it to make sense that the name was coined to define an ethnic identity. We're left with the conclusion that it's just a geographical name. So if in the first instance the name Prydein refers to the island itself, not the people who live on it, it makes no sense to think it derives from "painted" or "poetry loving' or "Brid worshipping". It's more likely to be something like "foggy" or "with rocky coasts" or "cloud-covered".

On the subject of your Brid theory, it seems to me that this completely neglects the dimensions of space and time. What we know about that cult was that it was current in Ireland, not Britain, around 600 AD - around 1000 years later than the times we're talking about. As far as I know, the only evidence for a Brid cult in Britain is in those places that the Irish settled (especially Pembrokeshire).

In reply to Steve Parker:

Brigid as the Irish Goddess of Fire.

In Brittany, in their ancient fire festivals, they chanted the 'Song of the Fire': 'An Tan! An Tan!'

Tan, as in British Beltan, Beltien, Beltaine fire ceremony, is derived from 'Shining One', 'identical with the Chinese term that means day, sky, and God. The Celtic word tan meaning fire is apparent in many directions. It occurs not infrequently with san, meaning holy, and the combination of san tan appears to have been, probably unconsciously, Christianised into "St Anne". St Anne, the supposed Mother of the Virgin Mary, is the patron saint of Brittany. There is a St Anne's Hill at Avebury, and on the 6th August an annual fair is held there known as Tan Hill Fair. In the Isle of Man there is a signal station at "St Anne's or Santon"; at St Anne's Head, Milford, there is a lighthouse, and the combination of a lighthouse and the name St Anne will be found in many other directions.

'St Anne's Beacon in Cornwall is written "St Agnes", and at St Agnes in the Scillies stands a well-known lighthouse. Agni was the Aryan God of Fire; ignis is teh Latin for fire; and the words montagne and montagna - radically Mount Fire - probably developed into the generic term for an exceptionally large hill by reason of the fact that the highest, most conspicuous, and most commmanding point in every district was always selected as the Beacon or Fire Hill.

'The word tan or tein reappears in mountain and, slightly varied, in place-names such as Pertinny and Bartinney, the sacred Fire Hill near Land's End, a district once known as Belerium or Bolerium.

'The word Ber or Per, used in Cornwall as a generic term for hill, may be equated with pur or pyr, the Greek for fire. The word pyre, meaning iwht us a funeral fire, is the base of pyramid, and the pyramid or cone was apparently at one time a universal symbol of the Primal Fire.' All this from Harold Bayley, The Lost Language of Symbolism, 1912 [He gives examples re Siva and in the Buddhist temples of Japan; quotes Plutarch and Plato, the Chaldeans etc etc etc; he also relates it to the gothic Fir and fir cone.]

There are also other related issues: eg. the Celtic goddess Anu (who was Christianised into St Anne); the Brigantia, the Celtic Goddess of War; the Brigantes, the tribe occupying the highest land in the centre of ancient Britain, the Peak and Pennines; Brigante, a foot soldier; Brigand; the relationship with ships, brigs etc etc etc. Some of these I have touched on in my Peak book.

What is clear to me is that the depth of meaning in many of our most ancient names is lost in the mists of time. The names are almost always a lot older than the derivations claimed by the 'experts'. A classic example (I've quoted here a few times, I think) is Derby: all the place name books give it as Danish for 'Deer clearing' when in fact the Romans called it Derventio or Derbentio (v and b being closely related in Romano-British), and it clearly had the nickname 'Derby' many centuries before the Norse arrived - just as we call Clogwyn d'ur Arddu 'Cloggy - , to whom it sounded like Derbye, a deer clearing. Derventio actually comes from the Celtic name of the valley (and river) Derwent, meaning 'abundant with oaks'. ( Just as druid is 'a wise man of the oak', derived from Derwydd.)

In reply to Richard J:

Cheers for the input, Richard. There are a few points I would quibble with. Firstly (and pedantically), it's Ynys Prydain, not Prydein (pedantic, I know - sorry). I would also say that, despite a lack of any central identity, any small social grouping ordinarily has a name for itself. Check the history of the Plains Indians in the US for an example of that, among many others.

As for the possibility of 'Prydain' referring to rocky coasts etc, that would hardly distinguish Prydain from anywhere else, would it? If you wanted a clear, definitive name to describe a coastline, it would be very difficult to find one that differed significantly from a description of every other coastline.

The idea that the worship of Brid was confined largely to Ireland depends entirely upon the fact that 'Brid' as a specific word-form is more commonly encountered (with its variants)in Ireland than elsewhere. But Brid was also Brig etc., and there is ample evidence of her worship across Britain. Basically, she is the old Norse goddess Freya or Frigg (b and f are frequent permutations in Celtic languages), under a variety of names, one of which may have passed into history as a name of the native people of Britain.

In reply to Steve Parker:
I don't know Welsh enough to be sure about the spelling, but my copy of Rachel Bromwich's edition of the Welsh Triads (a great source for the early legends of our island) is called "Trioedd Ynys Prydein". And the point about the inhabitants of Britain circa 300 BC is that they weren't a small social grouping - it's a big island, and whereas undoubtedly the people who lived in the Peak district had a name to distinguish themselves from the thugs up north in Yorkshire, why would they think that they had anything in common with people in present day Cornwall?

"Rocky coast" is undoubtedly a bad example. But what strikes me about translations of Welsh placenames is often how prosaic, repetitive and even dull they are. Think how many Black Hills and Crag of the Ravens and Big Moors there are. (Incidentally, this is why Gordon's derivation of Derby from "River of the Oaks" via Derventia rings true to me).

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

thanks Gordon

sooo much info, and what a great thread

your fire connections are interesting- Brigit fire goddess has not been questioned by anyone so it must be right

whether she was acually called by that name in the bronze age, who knows?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I'm familiar with a lot of your references. Tan is still 'fire' in Welsh, and there are many examples of Tan Hill or St Anne's Hill evincing ancient beacons etc. Of course, when we speculate about the origins of our ancient names, we are doing just that - speculating. As I said above, I doubt we can get much further with this one.

The 'Shining One' stuff is interesting, isn't it? I believe Danu is the oldest surviving form of the Shining One in these isles. A direct descendant of Beli and Bel (and Belial, when corrupt), supposedly - another sun god anyway, and one who would influence the Christian mythos in a variety of ways. Another example of that crossover, of course, is the name 'Easter', deriving from Eostre (giving us the word oestrogen, as I'm sure you know) after a long migration from the Fertile Crescent under the names Astarte, Ishtar etc. The same fertile Sky Goddess who gave us the word 'astral' and who gave birth each morning to the sun. Strange that Nuit, the Egyptian form, is so linguistically independent of the Sumerian, although a clear influence on later words for night, as she represented the sun-birthing night sky.

Yes, lost to time. But I reckon we've probably got pretty close!

In reply to Richard J: You have to remember that a legendary Greek traveller arriving at some point on the coast of Britain would have met with one social group, who would have had one name. Speculatively, he may have travelled inland and been introduced to other groups, most probably those friendly with those he initially encountered (or perhaps not). He may have come away with an exaggerated impression of the unification, and one name to remember it by - Prytani.

As regards the spelling of 'Prydain,' an 'ei' structure in Welsh would sound like the 'ay' in 'day.' The 'ai' structure is pronounced as 'eye.' Who knows how it used to sound, but it does seem to have preserved some phonetic integrity, and may be an interesting, echoic survival of our distant 'Celtic' past.

Not been around today.

Still enjoying reading everyone's contributions enormously.

keep it up!

In reply to all:

Heres a vote for the Goddess,rule Britannia.
leave the hunting to us big stupid men.
Arise goddess and reclaim whats Yours.
Have You seen the plonkers they have now.
Mr Greedy and Mr Arrogant.
We really need You back, rule Brittania.

In reply to malk: is that the Drood?

In reply to Steve Parker:

hi steve,

i've just posted on themodernaniquarian to see if we can get any other useful insights

there was a story mentioned about a brutus stone in totnes, but i just deleted it to save you

In reply to Steve Parker:

makes sense to me

Descriptive names like the "Painted Ones" - Prytani and Picts are generally applied by outsiders. We know that recent hunter/gatherer tribes like the Inuit call themselves the Inuit but it just means The People. In other words we are US and everyone else is THEM

I reckon the early peoplle of Britain didn't have a name for Britain at all because they had no concept of the land as a whole archipelago. Each community has their territory and that was home. Names for other places would have been descriptive or personal. So there is no original name for Britain. You can consider the names used by the Romans or the Greeks or the Phoenicians or any other visitors, but I don't think you will find any name used by the inhabitants.

In reply to malk:

Doesn't make sense to me. I think even a Britain populated by a variety of disparate tribes would have had a variety of names. How would they answer the occasional linguistic necessity of referring to their homeland otherwise? They must have had some basic terms meaning 'our place', or something similar. No doubt about it: Britain definitely had names from the start. Even people who joined in the first migrations would have words to describe where they were going. But I doubt the word 'Britain' came to have that all-encompassing meaning for a long time. I suspect it was the name of one tribe who happened to have the PR and good luck to encounter one or more outsiders, and get themselves logged in the annals as the eponymous ones. I agree that many tribe names just mean 'us', or variants thereon. 'Cheyenne,' for instance, apparently means 'humans.' 'Cymru' probably means something like 'our people,' with a slant towards 'brothers and comrades.

Perhaps it's a bit like the legendary (and probably false) naming of the kangaroo, where an English emigrant asked an aboriginal Australian, 'What is that animal?' 'Kan garu' answered the aborigine, meaning 'I don't know its name.' Or the naming of the Budgerigar, which means 'good to eat' in an Australian dialect. A chance encounter with a tribe name could easily come down through history as an overall 'land of the...' type name.

BTW, what is the URL of the Modern Antiquarian site? Sounds interesting.

In reply to malk:

According to Professor Charles Thomas the oldest name (? 4th-century BC)name for Britain was Albion. ( = white as in the White Cliffs of Dover (?)).

In reply to Steve Parker:
Pytheas wasn't legendary - he wrote a book about his travels, and although this doesn't survive it was quoted by enough other classical writers to make it clear he was a historic figure. I can strongly recommend the book "The extraordinary voyage of Pytheas the Greek", by Barry Cunliffe, which is a great read, packed with insight about what Britain must have been like at that time (Cunliffe is probably the leading authority on the Iron Age archaeology of Britain and the Atlantic coast of Europe). This thread prompted me to look up what the book says about the origins of the name "Britain".

Cunliffe points out that early classical writers distinguished between the name for the archipelago, the Prettanic Isles, and the name of the biggest island, Albion. He does think that the name Pretani referred to the inhabitants, but he isn't sure whether this name is what the people would have called themselves, or whether this was a nickname given to them by the sailors of Amorica who traded with them for tin, referring to their habit of extensively tatooing themselves. He quotes a Celtic scholar who suggests that the word would have been differently pronounced in the north of the country - Priteni - to the south - Pretani. The first form survived as the name of the people the Romans called the Picts, and this is the context in which the word appears in the Irish dark age stories referred to above (though the Irish changed the first p to a q, as usual, to give Quriteni.)

There's lots of other great stuff in the book too, answering questions such as, did Pytheas visit the Callanish stone circles on Lewis and observe their astronomical function? (Probably yes). Did he sail beyond Iceland to see the frozen arctic sea? (Cunliffe thinks yes to this too).

So there's one answer to your question - 'Britain' most likely comes from a derogatory nickname given to us by our French neighbours.

In reply to alan edmonds:

Back to the White Goddess. Albion, at least according to Robert Graves, derives from Alba, the White Goddess, totemic deity of settlers and seafarers. The 'white' comes from her status as a moon goddess, one of the many virgin/mother/crone triple goddess forms. You get some interesting connotations around the concept of left-handed or 'awkward,' as opposed to right-handed and 'dextrous' in this context, the Moon Goddess being considered to be 'sinister' and 'of the left.'

A similarly interesting area of study concerns the way in which all the early goddess forms were corrupted by later Christian rewriting. The word 'Hell', for instance, is the name of a Nordic goddess. Where did the negativity creep in? The early references show that Hel was associated with rather benign ideas such as 'healing', 'hale', 'whole' and 'helix,' as well as with 'Helen' or Hehlen,' meaning 'hidden.' But as an alien deity, she was rewritten by the early Christians as a demonic force, rather like the rewriting of Astarte as Ashtoreth. The fate of all neighbour deities! Also the nature of myth itself: war in heaven represents war on the ground, a power struggle between people recorded as a battle between their respective deities. That is the exact meaning of the Greek word 'mythos.'

Blake was especially affected by this early Albion mythos and a lot of his poetry quite literally depends upon it. In fact, you can almost not understand Blake without understanding his whole mindset about Alba and Albion and the triumphal, proto-Christian and gigantic early Britons. Largely retrospective nonsense, probably, but inspired nonsense!

In reply to Richard J:

I only meant 'legendary' in the sense that all ancient sources have become somewhat legendary, especially at 2nd or 3rd hand. Julius Caesar, normally a pretty reliable (if biased) observer and recorder, quite casually mentions the unicorns in the Black Forest, for instance. Caution is always required when reading this ancient stuff, especially if you are looking to prove a theory and therefore finding the answers you require. Not accusing you of this, more reminding myself to be wary of selective attention! I haven't read the account of Pytheas and his voyages, but it is now firmly on the list.

In reply to Richard J:

PS. Would a people favour a somewhat derisory name attached to them by foreigners? And favour it enough to adopt it? Not sure about that one. Having said that, the Cymry seem to have accepted the Saxon word 'Wealas,' even with its connotation of 'slave.' So maybe!

In reply to Richard J: Did he sail beyond Iceland to see the frozen arctic sea? (Cunliffe thinks yes to this too).

Re Pytheas' travels in the north, Cunliffe says this in 'Facing the Ocean', OUP, 2001, p. 92

'Mentions of the land of Thule in the far north, six days' sailing from Britain, of frozen sea, of volcanoes that boil the sea, of a place where there is daylight for six months a year, and many other wonders, have intrigued commentators ever after and still the debate rages. Some argue that he reached Iceland, others that he got no further than Shetland. The sad truth is that we will never know.'

In reply to Steve Parker:
Well, I'm proud to be Welsh, and I know some proud Slavs, so it seems to happen quite often. It comes back to the question of when the British started to develop some self-awareness of themselves as a cultural entity. I suspect this didn't really happen until after the Romans left, long after any initial negative connotations had been forgotten

In reply to ericoides:
I'm sure in "Facing the Ocean" (another great book, by the way) Cunliffe is writing as a cautious academic, while in "Pytheas" he's letting a bit more personal enthusiasm out!

In reply to Richard J:

For the Pritani, the 'others' were the invading Celts who came in around 500-300BC, long before Julius Caeser. I think it was the Celts who were the Brig worshippers and the Pritani who had a Druidic/Shamanistic earth trees rocks sun and sky based belief system. Who knows whether or for how long or to what extent the Pritani had a social order which pervaded the whole of prydein, though the consistent nature of the megalith building across the whole of North-Western and Iberian Europe and the Pretanic isles would indicate a major league and widespead culture was supplanted in the upheaval of the Celtic expansion from their original home in central Europe to points east and west.

Lets not forget that it was the Pre-Celtic cultures of The British Isles and Ireland, the Fir Bolgs, Fomorians and Pritani who cleared areas of the forests, turned the wild into farmland, built Newgrange and Stonehenge, dug boundary ditches and watercourses etc etc. And they were at it for around the same amount of time that has elapsed since the Celts and Romans invaded two and a half thousand years ago.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Yes, it's important to realise that the negative concepts (such as 'sinister' and withershins) came in with the Romans and Christianity, which also denoted a shift to an entirely patriarchal/Sun-god orientated mindset. The all-powerful Mother/Earth/Moon Goddess became sanitised and sterilised into the 'Virgin Mary', and the Nine Ladies likewise reduced to Nine Maidens.

Regarding the importance of left-handedness (which interestingly relates to the very interesting notion of chirality in atomic physics etc, and in astronomy, almost everthing, viewed from it's 'north pole' spinning anticlockwise) - this came from a very deep and wide knowledge of the movement of the heavens by early man. i.e that the all-important 'wanderers' (the sun, moon and planets) move eastwards/anticlockwise through the zodiac. The westerly apparent movement of the sun through the sky during the day, and stars at night, was rightly seen as a comparatively trivial matter compared with the real movement of the planets through the seasons, and the movement of the moon round the earth each month. Furthermore, also apparently obeying this mysterious eastward force, the sun seemed to drift ever further eastwards through the zodiac through millennia - resulting in the precession of the equinoxes, which was one of the most disturbing phenomena for early astronomers/wise men etc to get to grips with. It seemed to be a picture in the sky of the way one god was usurped by another through the ages e.g the Bull God giving way to the Ram God, giving way to the Christian fishes. (A lot more on this very interesting subject can be learned from 'Hamlet's Mill' by Santillana and Dechand: how the precession of the equinoxes gave rise to the near-universal myth of Umlaut/Hamlet - such as it was called by the Icelandic people. Closely connected with this is all the symbolism connected with the Pole Star/Millstone/Grinding Stick/Churning Stick (of the Hindus))

Big subject, but unfortunately I have to work now.

In reply to tallbloke:

Your understanding of the pre-Celtic 'pretani' is very similar to mine .. with one difference:


My understanding is that before the Iron Age (which coincided with the arrival of the Celts, suggesting it was their invention) the Pre-Celtic people could not do much tree-clearing on a widescale because of totally inadequate axes.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Same problem with me and ice-climbing ;0) I blame Moutain Technology.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

PS. I believe you are also wrong about 'farmland' in a modern sense. They were still really hunter-gatherers, and often seasonally nomadic. In fact farming in a modern sense only really came in with the Anglo-Saxon plough, some time after the Roman Empire.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

(above is addressed to 'tallbloke')

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I bet they understood how the ashes of burned down trees fertilied soil though. Far more efficient than chopping away with piddling little iron axes. Power from the Fire Goddess!

Hunter gatherers gave way to farming culture, (ok more livestock domestication inside wattle fencing than serious horticulture) around 4000BC. Whichever way you look at it, it's a pretty advanced culture which can create sufficient surplus food to spare the manpower to drag bloody great stones around and build artificial hills like Silbury.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: <My understanding is that before the Iron Age (which coincided with the arrival of the Celts, suggesting it was their invention) the Pre-Celtic people could not do much tree-clearing on a widescale because of totally inadequate axes.>

One authority on the history of our forests, Oliver Rackham, writes in 'Trees and Woodlands in the British Landscape' that there was considerable clearing of woods for cultivation in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages, before the Iron Age. ie the East Anglian Breckland, the chalklands, the Somerset Levels and the coastal Lake District. In the East Anglian Breckland in the Neolithic, 'wildwood vanished never to return.'

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Which probably shows that the Celtic success in expanding their territory was due more to the military use of their iron making technology than assimilation of their superior culture by welcoming indigenous peoples. Since Britain was already known as 'The Pretanic Isles' in 325BC, and all the serviving fragments would indicate a major difference between the Roman pacified Celts and the wild and indomitable pretani/picts, I'm led to the conclusion that the Pretani are the original British race notwithstanding the ice age which would have forced whoever was living here over the land bridge onto the continent. The archaeological pottery and grave goods evidence indicates that the Beaker folk were assimilted by the aboriginal Pretanic Neolithic and Bronze age inhabitants or at least co-existed. Could this indicate that they were percieved to be of the same ilk, whereas the Celts were regarded as furriners with super-swords?

If they were seasonally nomadic hunter gatherers, they built some structures while they were wandering about which must have had the invading Celts gawping in amazement. Farming 'in a modern sense' takes place in a deforested and denuded landscape. In 500BC there would have been seasonal activities such as nut gathering, salmon fishing, truffle hunting etc etc, which may well have taken groups of Pretani some ditance from their winter dwellings. This to me indicates an enjoyable and varied lifestyle, rather than something inferior, replaced by a superior invading culture. Indeed the rapidity of the Celtic expansion would indicate to me that they pillaged their way across Europe and ruled by the sword, before gtting their arses kicked by the Romans, who did the same to them. That must surely have afforeded the Pretani beyond the pale of the Antonine wall a wry smile or two.

In reply to Richard J:
>differently pronounced in the north of the country - Priteni - to the south - Pretani. The first form survived as the name of the people the Romans called the Picts, and this is the context in which the word appears in the Irish dark age stories referred to above (though the Irish changed the first p to a q, as usual, to give Quriteni.)

Blimey, I just got an insight into the apparently different names applied to the brits by the Irish. They also are recorded as calling them 'Cruithne'. Now if you mouth out Qur-it-eni and bear in mind shape of the whopping great illuninated letters on the 'Chi-Rho' page of the book of Kells. you get:

Irish Q-Celt Cruithne=ChiRhoIteni=Quriteni=Priteni P-Celt Welsh

In reply to Steve Parker: >
(In reply to malk)

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/

its an excellent site -check out the technicolour map browser

In reply to tallbloke:
Nice image here:
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/109images/Insular/kells/c...

In reply to tallbloke:

Perhaps also worth noting; the time when early britons were settling down and building long-lasting structures like the long barrows also coincides with a change in the climate from the 'holocene climate optimum' to colder conditions.

I'd agree with you that if they were capable of building avebury and silbury with antler picks then large scale tree clearing would not have had to wait for metal.

In reply to Adam L:

A lot depended on the size and type of the tree. I have read some expert opinion (but cannot now find) suggesting that they could make very little impression on large oak trees before they had iron axes.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: A lot depended on the size and type of the tree.

You're quite right.

1. Oaks that grow in the forest conditions that Neolithic man would have encountered have far smaller girths than open-grown trees (of the sort you might find in Hatfield Forest or Windsor Great Park - these may be the large oak trees you mean). Flint axes can fell a hardwood tree with 30cm diameter in an hour. And remember that most of England south of the Wash was dominated by lime trees (easier to fell than oak) in 4500 BC.

2. Forest clearance by burning hardwood trees is obviously out of the question, but ring barking, and subsequent coppicing and grazing does the job very well.

In reply to ericoides:
And that most of the trees of the caledonian forest were close growing resinous softwood...

In reply to ericoides:
'Some argue that he reached Iceland, others that he got no further than Shetland. The sad truth is that we will never know.'

Interesting- there are many references to brid in the hebrides/northern isles
in the hebrides she seems to be related to fertility at this time

While we are on the subject of trees, does anyone happen to know about the various kinds of stigmaria that were widespread on the Yorkshire moors? Did their extinction predate human arrival, or were they cleared? I suspect the former.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
According to Robert Graves in 'The White Goddess', the law decreed that felling mature oak trees was a bit of a no-no anyway.

In reply to tallbloke: Since a mature oak might be about 10 feet thick, I'm not surprised. Like to see anyone cut one of those down with a flint axe!

In reply to Steve Parker:
I come from an ancient and distinguished family tree. In fact, most of the family are still living in it. )

In reply to Steve Parker

Pretani may have been/ or may have included Picts.
Pretani seems to represent a P-Celtic (Brittonic) word. The Irish Q-Celtic equivalent would be Cruithni. Some identify the Cruithni with the Picts, but the matter is somewhat controversial.

In reply to ericoides:

In gaelic scotland her symbol was the white swan and she was known as the bride of the golden hair, bride of the the white hills(!), mother of the king of glory.
In the HeBRIDes, she was the patroness of childbirth.
Her Aegean prototype seems to have been the Brizo of Delos, a moon goddess to whom votive ships were offered, and whose name was derived by the Greeks from the word Brizein- 'to enchant'

R. Graves, The White Goddess

In reply to alan edmonds:
Alan, did you see my earlier post re the related etymology of Cruithni quretani and pretani?

In reply to tallbloke:


Sorry; only after I sent mine.

In reply to tallbloke:

Something just struck me, actually, about the 'ani' forms inherent in the above constructs. A ni, in modern Welsh would mean something like 'of us,' 'to us,' or 'ours.' Pryd a Ni, could mean something like Our Pryd. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it does, after all, reduce to a statement of 'our lads,' like so many others. Just got to sort out that Pryd bit! Where have the Welsh posters gone?

In reply to alan edmonds:
No apology needed! It's enough merely to be able to add to the sum total of confusion and speculation.

In reply to Steve Parker:
Ynis Pryd A Ni = The island of which we are proud?

In reply to tallbloke: I spotted that one, but I don't know of any pryd in Welsh meaning proud or pride. Could be getting somewhere though. I still think it refers more to the people than the place, however.

In reply to tallbloke: 'Poetic us' might be something like it. Trying to remember my Welsh lessons - knew it would come in useful one day! Might be as simple as that though. I don't think poetry was as venerated by anyone else, so that might have been a sufficient distinguishing feature, and one worthy of a name. Druidic tradition, Bardic schools, the language of the trees - you could understand a tribe naming itself from all that. It even sounds official, in a druidic sort of way. We users of poetry. We who have the divine gift of poetry. We poets. Could be!

Just thought of something else. If the goddess 'Brid' has associations with all the other words around breeding and brides etc., maybe Pryd just has some sense of 'breed' or 'bloodline.' Coming back to the idea of 'Us,' our genetic line. Maybe Brid had a more fundamental and intimate resonance back then, one connected with your very essence and who you were. 'Our blood' or 'Our Breed' would not be an unusual tribal naming. That might make Brid a very definite and local goddess of these isles, a blood-covenant, in fact, associated with husbandry and lineage.

Seems bloody good to me!

Or am I guilty of selective engineering of reality due to a primary, prejudicial agenda?

In reply to Steve Parker:
Certainly looks like you getting close to answering the question you posed Steve. In 'The White Goddess', Robert Graves reminds us constantly of the deliberate ambiguity of the poetic tension: between reality and the ideal, the play on words, the double entendre. It's certainly possible that the tribal identity and name of the tribal home had a double meaning, the exoteric 'public' meaning, and the initiates 'secret' meaning.

In reply to Steve Parker:
Your ancestral tribe, The Tuatha de Danann were held in high regard by the Fir Bolg, whom they beat in combat. The Celts had a bit of a reputation for cruelty, and the remnants of the indigenous Brits didn't seem to get on with them too well it has to be said. maybe that was because the Celt had more in common with the Roman overlords than with the natives, but what the hell, the Celts have as much of a claim to these islands as anyone. Ownership of the name is a mere chance detail of history. We're all part of Cool Brittania now.

In reply to tallbloke: Yes, exactly. And there are plenty of examples of just how close and how proprietary a priesthood can imagine itself to be to its populace. Aztecs etc. They often regarded themselves as the protectors of the blood, and the very conductors of husbandry. Don't know about you, but I'm scenting success on this one, which I didn't expect. Good insights all round. I wonder if we could do this well on a thread about something else.

Watch someone come and blow my theory away now!

In reply to tallbloke: that was in response to your last but one post BTW.

In reply to tallbloke:
We're all part of Cool Brittania now.

Or maybe Finn Mac Cool Brittania!

In reply to Steve Parker:
Another tall tale in the telling.

In reply to Steve Parker:

i think we need a summary of what we have learned so far

In reply to tallbloke: Indeed!

I think we're due for a summation around about now, unless anyone has got anything to add.

In reply to malk: Are you psychic? Just as I was typing the very words!

In reply to Steve Parker:

You keep on implying we're nearly there, when we are not. Your over-emphasis on the alleged British goddess 'Brid' is frankly outrageous! You will find that very few of the experts, going right back to Robert Graves, will provide you with very little evidence for this idea. Though it does seem to be very important and completely valid in Ireland, but here the dating is very tricky.

Someone else above has mentioned A Ni, with some interesting possible meanings (which I suspect are mere invention), but no one, but no one, I believe, has even so much as mentioned the very well established moon goddess in Celtic Britain (AND Ireland), Anu, Danu, Diana etc etc etc etc etc etc. This is a far, far richer seam than 'Brid' (actually Brig, Brigid etc) Let's at least start from things that are more or less established as historical fact, and central to our whole mythology.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Sorry, I see Danu has at least been mentioned a couple of times, but I cannot see any mention of Diana or Anu. Umm.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

sorry, v late at night. Bad English: when I said 'very little evidence' I meant 'very much evidence'.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Very few of the experts will provide me with little evidence? Well, if you say so.

I don't recall anyone else putting together the forms of 'bryd' and 'a ni' above. Maybe I missed something, though I've just been back through it all, and didn't find anything.

Rydw i
Rwyt i
Mae e
Maen hi
Rydyn ni
Rydych chi
Maen nhw

As I suggested above, I have largely discarded the overall, simplified Brid idea in favour of Brid or Bryd (or Pryd) as some concept of blood or heritage. I don't think there is any need to be aggressive about it. I think the concept of Brid is clearly to do with lineage and husbandry.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

We have had umpteen references to the Tuatha de Danaan. What guise do you want her in?

In reply to Steve Parker:

Yes, many references to the Irish Tuatha DD. But no broader discussion, that's all. I want to see how it relates to British mythology (which of course Robert Graves has a very sustained and admirable stab at.)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The point is that Irish Mythology is generally regarded as having preserved an example of 'Celtism' that is not otherwise available. If you really want to study the Celts, you are going to have to study the isolate group that is Ireland, as most of the best forms, linguistically and artistically, are preserved there and nowhere else.

In reply to Steve Parker:

In reply to Steve Parker:

I already corrected my appalling English there. I simply meant that there seems to be very little evidence for this British goddess, that's all. It's not so much to do with me 'saying so' but just how few people seem to say otherwise, i.e support your neat and appealing theory.

I didn't think I was being remotely aggressive. Oh dear. Simply referring, not so far back in this thread, to Tallbloke at 21:03pm:

'In reply to Steve Parker:
Ynis Pryd A Ni = The island of which we are proud?'


What you are saying here is very interesting, and could easily be very close to the truth, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with any goddess of that name.

In reply to gordon's deleted post:

The other reference to 'a ni' was in response to mine. I don't think you have yet grasped the possibility of the all-embracing bloodiness of Brid. Off to bed now. Cheers, Gordon and everyone else.

In reply to Steve Parker:

I have studied an enormous amount about the Irish Celts, but have always had problems making it align with the British Celtic tradition (though there are obviously many close similarities with the calendar and most festivals). Mostly I suspect to do with the very separate mythological tradition.

Of many books I have read about the Irish Celtic tradition one of the most useful and interesting is Celtic Heritage by Alwyn Rees and Brinley Rees (Thames and Hudson, 1961). I'm sure you will have seen it.

In reply to Steve Parker:

OK, question for the morning. Explain, just roughly, what you mean by:

'the possibility of the all-embracing bloodiness of Brid'

(which will also of course entail your explaining just what you're referring to by the name Brid there.)

Cheers, and goodnight,
Gordon

In reply to Steve Parker:

Oh, dear .. again. Where exactly does that leave the Welsh tradition which seems to me very similar in many ways, and nearly as strong

? ?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Britain comes the Gauls who were in what is now modern day France. They called it Briton (northern part of France) and Great Briton is what they called the part where we live in the UK.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I will get back to you on that. Bit of a busy day today, so it'll have to wait until later. Anyway, looks like someone has answered all our queries above!

In reply to Steve Parker:

If you're referring to Rickeden's post I don't think so. 'Grande Bretagne' became so called *after* the refugee Celts of the south of Britain fled to Armorica from the Angles and Saxons in 460AD and dubbed their refuge 'Britannica Minor'.

http://www.iexplore.com/dmap/France/Where+to+Go
"The Gauls arrived on the peninsula in about 600 BC. Little is known about their way of life or why they constructed the countless stone monuments to be found throughout Brittany &#8211; cromlechs, altars, menhirs and dolmens (Carnac is the supreme example of this). They were displaced by the Romans during the reign of Julius Caesar who, in turn, were displaced by Celts arriving from Britain in AD 460. The Celts named their new land Brittanica Minor and divided it into the coastal area, l&#8217;Ar Mor (the country of the sea), and the inland highlands, l&#8217;Ar Coat (the country of the woods). The two areas in Brittany are still referred to as l&#8217;Armor and l&#8217;Argoat"

And

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/places03.htm
Brittany is a Region and former province in northwest France, a peninsula between the English Channel and the Bay of Biscay; spelled Bretagne in French. Got its name from the fugitive Britons that settled the area c.500, leading to the initial name of Brittanica Minor. The Breton langauge derives from the ancient English and Welsh spoken by those settlers.

So easy to bugger up history isn't it!

In reply to malk:

Ok. Not exhaustive and feel free to elucidate, refute or shoot down in flames, but here are what I think are some of the salient points:

The name 'Britain' originally derives from a pre-Celtic tribe or generic term for the indigenous population of these isles known to the Greek explorer Pytheas in 325BC as the Pretani or Priteni. Seabourne traders of the period referred to the place as the Pretanic Isles. A later Greek scholar Diodorus transmutes it to 'Pretannia' and Julius Caesar transmutes that to 'Britannia'.

Meanwhile, the Celts have arrived. One of the principle Goddesses they worship is called Brig by the Q-Celts of Ireland and the P-Celt equivalent is Pryd. The P-Celts of the British mainland refer to the country as 'Ynis Prydain'

The Free Priteni are pushed north of the Antonine wall by the Romans and maintain a distinct identity until the treachery of Pictish king Kenneth Macalpin in the C10th

The Free P-Celts are pushed to the fringes of the kingdom by the Romans and then the Angles and Saxons into Cumbria, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany, where their language develops along similar lines. The Welsh have a particularly strong Bardic tradition and may well have invested hidden meaning in the name 'Ynis Prydain' which incorporates not only the reference to the aboriginal inhabitants but also their mystery traditions involving The Goddess Brig(Brid) and the Bardic Muse.

The name falls into disuse after the Norman invasion because of the distinct nature of the countries in the isles. After the reformation it is revived by Propagandist and secret agent John Dee who is aiding Good Queen Bess who wants to heal the rift between England and Scotland and to rally the whole 'British Nation' against the threatening noises of Catholic France and spain.

Tony Blair turns up 500 years later, has a schoolboy dream of rock stardom, and after getting tw*tted round the back of the head by Noel Gallagher, he endorses 'Cool Britannia' as the NuLabour name for Britain.

In reply to tallbloke: "The Gauls arrived on the peninsula in about 600 BC. Little is known about their way of life or why they constructed the countless stone monuments to be found throughout Brittany &#8211; cromlechs, altars, menhirs and dolmens (Carnac is the supreme example of this)."

Fairly big error that! The Carnac monuments would have already been much older than roman remains are to us, not to mention the grand tumuli...

In reply to Adam L:
Some othe sources have the Gauls arriving in 1500BC not 600BC. Either way, the megalithic monuments were more likely built by a pre-existing culture which was spread across the Iberian Peninsula, France, The British Isles and parts of Sweden long beforehand. I quoted the section to illustrate the arrival of the name 'Britannia Minor' (or 'Little Britain' with the refugees fleeing from the Anglo Saxon invasion of the South east of Britain in AD460

In reply to tallbloke:

Kenneth Macalpin was a Scot, not a Pict, wasn't he? He became King of the unified realm of Alba.

In reply to DougG:
I was being somewhat elliptical. This page is well worth a read:

http://members.aol.com/skyelander/alpin.html

"Ciniodh (Kenneth) MacAlpin, known aslo as "Kenneth the Hardy", was believed born around the year 810 AD, but later took the Christian name of Kenneth. His father, Alpin MacEochaid, was king of Scots in name only, as at that time some of the area around Dalriada was actually ruled by the Picts of Caledonia.

His mother is said to have been either a daughter of Achalas, King of Argyllshire or a princess of the royal lines of the Picts....By Pictish marriage custom, inheritance passed through female (matriarchal descent) and Kenneth's maternal ancestry probably provided some claim to the Caledonian throne, to which now he applied himself."

In reply to tallbloke:


First time I've heard that suggested. I have read

The Picts and The Scots, Laing,L and Laing,J, Sutton Publishing, 1993

and I seem to recall that it was the Scots who assimilated the Picts rather than the other way round. Either way, it seems likely that their union was a response to the threat from the Norse in W (Man) and NW (Hebrides).

In reply to DougG:

You are right of course, but the Scots (and Norse who were settling rather than merely raiding by this time) assimilated the Picts *after* MacAlpin became king of Picts and Scots and set up Alban as a unified Kingdom.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Steve, I strongly agree with Gordon's comments above - if you want to understand what was going on in Britain ca 300-400 BC, why do you think stories about Ireland ca 300-400 AD are going to be helpful? It's a different place and a different time. If you wanted to understand English politics in the 12th century, do you think a novel set in 18th century Germany would be a good place to start?

Your argument about the purity of the survival of Celtic culture is an interesting one, because this begs the question of whether their actually ever was a Celtic culture in in the British Isles in the sense that people usually speak of it. We know there was a celtic culture in continental Europe, because the classical authors wrote about it and it's left behind lots of archeology, and we know that people in Britain and Ireland spoke languages now described as Celtic (but note that there is no record of anyone using the word Celtic in connection with anything in Britain or Ireland before 1700 AD). Of course, putting these two things together it's been traditional to imagine a series of invasions of Britain and Ireland during the 1st millenium BC by waves of Celtic warriors who brought their iron age culture and displaced the unfortunate natives. But, there's no evidence at all that this happened - and quite a lot of evidence that it didn't. Archaeology shows, not only no evidence of this kind of invasion, but also lots of evidence of complete continuity between the late bronze age and the early iron age. There's some evidence of continental cultural influence, of course, particularly towards the end of the millennium, but this is strongest in a few places like east Yorkshire and Kent. The natural conclusion of all this is that the people of Britain in 300 BC were pretty much the same people who were here in 2000 BC; their cultures had certainly evolved due to social changes, technological innovations and influences from abroad and there'd certainly have been small scale movements of people, but there were no large scale invasions by an alien race.

What they believed, of course, is an open question. But it's important to remember that views about the importance of (For example) mother godesses are founded on a false archaeological premise. This view of prehistoric religion is based on interpretations of the mythology of the eastern mediterranean and the middle east. It used to be believed that this culture, with its physical manifestations such as megalithic monument building, spread to Britain and Ireland from an ultimate origin in the near east. But we now know this can't have happened; the dates are wrong and the megalithic building tradition was locally invented long before the supposed eastern mediterranean models were built. It follows, then, that the local religious traditions must also have been independently developed. (It's worth noting in passing that there's a very persuasive point of view that holds that Robert Graves's "The White Goddess" tells you more about Graves's own odd and unhealthily masochistic relationships with women than it does about ancient religion).

So if we don't look to near eastern models to guess what the prehistoric britons believed, where should we look? One likely guess is that it had lots in common with the belief systems that survived in northern Scandinavia and Siberia into historic times. These shamanistic religions revolved around sacred places like rocks, springs, bogs and significant trees (sometimes altered with abstract art that may reflect the experiences of altered states of consciousness), an underworld that was in some senses a mirror image of our world, and relationships with ancestors and the natural world.

So much of this on all sides is speculation, of course, which is why it's all so interesting.

Regarding the word 'Prytani,' or 'Prytanoi,' I was in error above when I deconstructed the 'a ni' and suggested it could mean 'of us' etc. If it is distinct within the name, then it would mean 'and us,' ('a' meaning 'and' in Welsh) which would make it Pryt (or Pryd) and us. I don't think it is quite as clear as that, but I think there is a definite sense of 'us' in there, together with something called Pryd.

The other option would be to retain the 'ani' or 'anoi' complete. It certainly has resonance with other names such as Danu, Danann, Anu, Annwn, Anwen etc, all of which refer to the Celtic 'otherworld' or those who dwell there. An or On forms occur in this sense throughout Northern Europe.

But I don't think it is mere coincidence that there are also so many words similar to Brig or Brid or Pryd. I would suggest that a number of tribes from different areas of France etc., distinct though related, and having very similar pantheons with slightly varying names, arrived in Britain with their related gods.

I don't think it is possible to fully appreciated the importance and intimacy of those gods in the lives of early agrarian tribes, descended from hunter-gatherers. I think it may almost be a category error to ask was a tribe named after its tutelary god or goddess. I think it may have been more like that god or goddess WAS the tribe, or represented the very essence of it, as well as representing a bond between the group itself and the supernatural forces on which their own strength and fertility as well as that of the land and therefore the harvests and hunting depended.

Prytani, for me, includes all of these concepts. It binds divinity, covenant with the land, tribal identity, as well as other related (and perhaps later) senses of poetry and priesthood. Another example of the intimacy of god and tribe is Brigante, goddess of the Brigantes obviously, and, crucially, bearing the same name, surely a very clear expression of a tribe representing itself as almost indistinct from its deity. Brigante was also a patroness of poets. Her name is clearly a relative of Prytani, and presumably means something very similar.

Any suggestions?

In reply to Richard J: Sorry Richard - only just noticed your post. Must have been typing mine as you wrote yours, so my post above is not a response to yours! No time to do it justice now, but will look more closely later.
Steve.

In reply to Steve Parker:
Brigante could simply mean "Them as came in boats"

For island inhabitants this may seem almost fatuously obvious, but to those already living on the coast, all new arrivals are potentially brigands.

Or there is the Celtic word 'brigent,' meaning noble, free or privileged. I like this one, being a yorkshireman.

In reply to Steve Parker:
Steve, I absolutely agree that tutelary godesses are likely to have been central to the life of these tribes, and there's good evidence that Brigante was the tutelary godess of the Brigantes. But the big question is, how big were the relevant social units at the time we are talking about, i.e. before 300 BC? The evidence about the Brigante cult comes from Roman times, so there are two problems with extrapolating it back 4 or 5 hundred years. Firstly, the cult itself may well have had substantial Roman influence - the Romans had a habit of looking at the local deities in the places they conquered, finding something that roughly approximated to one of their own gods (Minerva I think would be the one here) and then encouraging a cult based on the equivalence of Roman and local deity. Secondly, there's no evidence that any regional size grouping like the Brigantes had coalesced much before 100 BC (and in fact the trigger for the emergence of these larger states was probably the looming power of Rome in any case). So the size of the tribe that would have been so closely identified with its godess is likely to have been much smaller than a region like the territory of the Brigantes at 0 AD, let alone the whole of the island of Britain.

How small would these tribal units have been? Here's a personal and impressionistic guess based on my home turf in the Peak district. If you sit at the top of Win Hill and look west over the Hope Valley, what you see is one self-contained tribal homeland laid out in front of you. You've got the ritual/power centre on Mam Tor dominating the whole area, the Roman fort at Brough built to control it, and the Dark age ditch crossing the easy way in along Bradwell Dale in an attempt to keep the Saxons out. I think in pretty much any time between 2000 BC and 1000 AD, if you lived there, that 20 square miles or so would have defined your entire world, and if you'd been asked if you felt a deep Prettanic identity you'd react like a Yorkshireman being asked if he felt himself a citizen of the European Union.

In reply to Richard J:

Hi Richard. Interesting posts, and a lot of food for thought. To start with the notion of Irish 'Celtism:' I seem to find in my reading that the 'Celtic' history of Britain often seeks sources in Irish mythology and archaeology, probably because Ireland was less exposed to other influences in the common era, and therefore the tradition survived there more intact than in other areas. Yes, it was a different culture (though one with strong connections), and, yes, the time periods are different, but in a speculative field like this we have to take what we can get, however vestigial, and try to extrapolate. I agree with your points about the dubious nature of any British 'Celtism,' the projection of which became quite fashionable (and erroneous) much later - witness Blake and his neo-Britannic romanticism for an example of that.

The real or imaginary iron-age invasions, whatever their historical ambiguities, may at least serve one function: they may be more expressive of the spread of ideas and religious forms than of actual migrations. That is a common occurrence in many mythologies: the representing of ideological influx as invasion. In fact it is so common as to be almost universal. That Ireland and Britain both are historically described in the same mythological cycles of invasion and takeover, however erroneously, gives a commonality to the myths of both over the relevant time periods. Ireland occurs frequently in the Mabinogi, and its study certainly lends something to an overall study of British Celtic history, always reading between the mythological lines, of course.

Don't really want to get into the perhaps fanciful conceptions of ancient mother goddesses, other than to say that the common predilections of hunter gatherers and early farmers may have generated common imagery and 'shamanistic' notions of artistic priority.

In reply to Richard J:

Hi again! Answer to your next post. I agree that tribal units were probably very small, but I think from the widespread occurrence of similarities in language that we can infer some close cultural ties, and, to be more speculative, military and social alliance. I think we can certainly infer a spiritual kinship through the language traces and mythology, as well as, again speculatively, through the simple facts of proximity and shared experience. So I don't think the dissimilarities of identity and allegiance would have been as marked as you suggest.

Even in pre Celtic times, the construction of huge, monumental religious sites suggests a lot of alliance and cooperation, both in an engineering and a religious context. Do we need to assume a decline of these very practical and pragmatic systems? Or can we assume that various groups collectively constructed and worshipped? I would go for the latter, squabbles aside. Even traditionally antagonistic tribes very often had truces for periods of celebration. That is also pretty universal.

So I don't find the existence of a 'Prytanic' identity (albeit under a variety of similar names), encompassing numerous small, local variations of speech, dress, religion and language, is any way unreasonable. I find it likely that that overall identity grew and deepened over time, and that the people you would be likely to encounter, if you made landfall anywhere on the coast of Britain, would in some essential sense be British, the Prytanoi, with all the complex, exponentially accreted symbolism inherent in their several related names.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Who said they were about to summarize (to give a concise account)?!

In reply to Sandrine:

My tentative summary is above. Others have different summaries, being more or less tentative. The real summary is probably that, at this point, we have gone rather beyond what history can tell us, and are reduced to shameful speculation, more revealing of our own predilections than any true historical revelation.

My money is still on tallbloke finding a manuscript in his attic revealing the exact derivation of 'Britain,' however!

In reply to Sandrine:

it's the neverending story

In reply to Steve Parker:
The real summary is probably that, at this point, we have gone rather beyond what history can tell us, and are reduced to shameful speculation, more revealing of our own predilections than any true historical revelation.

I sussed out that much!
What's the policy on these shores, do you have to bring the "treasure" to the local authorities and then be taxed on possible gains during an auction?!

In reply to Steve Parker:

i can't help thinking that if we weren't an island, we wouldn't have our name

One last point (promise!): with reference to the possible 'poetry' connotation in 'Prytani,' I would speculate that the concept of a poem differed back then quite substantially from what we now understand it to mean. Poems had far more to do with chronicling, as well as that complex spiritual function of Druidic reinforcement of tribal essence and identity. Poems were an act of the state (I know state doesn't apply here), a sort of social, religious and political shamanism that perpetually reaffirmed both the kinship and the blood covenant with the land.

Given that to be the case, I would expect to find some vestiges, both in the name 'Prytani,' and in later 'pryd' forms in Welsh. Both are there.

In reply to Sandrine:

nothing wrong with 'shameful' speculation

In reply to Sandrine: Don't know about on the shores (;0), but further inland I believe you are now entitled to keep what you find, although if you found something seriously interesting I think a lot of pressure would be put upon you to give it up.

In reply to Steve Parker:
In connection with the relation between Irish and British/Welsh post-roman cultures, the fact is that the Irish really did invade after the Romans left - Pembrokeshire was clearly ruled by an Irish dynasty in the immediate post-roman period, as evidenced by the prevalence of ogham monuments in that part of the world, and the Lleyn peninsular gets its name from Leinster. So it's not surprising that those bits of the Mabinogi that were associated with south west Wales show strong signs of Irish influence. The point is, though, that this reflects direct cultural links in the post-Roman period rather than any common Celtic deep heritage, and I don't think it tells us anything at all about the pre-Roman period. (Clearly by the time the stories of the Mabinogi were put together even the Roman period was fading into a foggy mythological hinterland - as the relation between the story "Macsen's Dream" and its historical basis with the pretended Maximus shows - so it's unrealistic to expect much enlightenment about pre-Roman times from those sources).

In reply to malk:
Indeed, I was just saying that I more or less got the overall meanings and shortcomings of the views and knowledges expressed in the thread.

In reply to malk: Well, since the name is Ynis Prydain (Island Britain), you're certainly right.

In reply to Steve Parker:
The interesting thing about the huge, monumental religious sites is that these have earlier dates than the much smaller, family/clan size monuments. So whatever forces drove people to cooperate on that scale had evaporated by the later Bronze age. Again, referring back to the Peak district to be concrete, we have big, obviously collective sites like Arbor Low being built sometime between 3000 BC and 2000 BC, then these go out of use to be replaced by village scale monuments like the little stone circle on top of Froggatt in the period 2000 - 1500 BC, and then people stop building any collective monuments at all. So the evidence on the ground seems to suggest that, if anything, collective identity grew less strong, not more strong, with time.

Still the best thread ever!!

In reply to Richard J: Re the construction of monuments: yes, you're right, of course. Over-extended my reasoning (or lack of) there! That clearly suggests a greater cultural cohesion prior to the 'Celtic' influxes than after. Or else a change of religious priority or interest.

In reply to Crispy haddock: You're wrong. The best thread ever happened a few days ago, and concerned the relative merits of various fridge magnets. Get your priorities sorted!

In reply to Sandrine:

In reply to Steve Parker:
The real summary is probably that, at this point, we have gone rather beyond what history can tell us, and are reduced to shameful speculation, more revealing of our own predilections than any true historical revelation.

Historiography is a minefield. Someone back there said something about Graves theories revealing more about him than ancient peoples attitutes to female deities, well ok, but you have to start somewhere.

I sussed out that much!
What's the policy on these shores, do you have to bring the "treasure" to the local authorities and then be taxed on possible gains during an auction?!

It's on American ebay already, along with the other items from my loft I'm selling. (anyone after a psion organiser?

One further thought. If by Pytheas' time most of the older megalith building culture had been supplanted by iron age cultures on the continent, and if for reasons of it's natural inaccessibility, Britain was a kind of last bastion of the older race, maybe the 'modern' Celtic continentals referred to the Brits as 'Pretani' as a descriptive appellation meaning 'the people who've been around since before us' or 'outdated moon-goddess worshippers' I'm not an expert in Cletic languges, but clearly some contributors on this forum are, so I'll leave it as an exercise in archeolinguistic acrobatics for those who like to solve these kind of puzzles.

In reply to Crispy haddock:

Actually, to answer more seriously, while I'm glad you're appreciating the thread, as I am, there have been some great threads in the past, even in the short past which I am familiar with. Gordon cites the thread which gave rise to the 'Owl and the Cragrat' anthology as one of the best ever. I checked that one out, at Gordon's behest, and it was certainly highly amusing and creative, and well worth a read (could be time for another); but this one is more to my taste, and I've been heartened and impressed by some of the learning and intelligence on display. Good thread, made so by a lot of intelligent contributors, all of whom I thank for the stimulation and education.

In reply to tallbloke: Good touch that it's on American ebay. That would really hurt!

In reply to Steve Parker:
>... all of whom I thank for the stimulation and education

and we thank you as a very stimulating OP

I must say that even Nicholas Ostler, who displays such astonishing scholarship in his book tracing the spread of languages, 'Empires of the Word,' gives the meaning of 'Prytani' as 'the patterned ones,' with reference, obviously, to tattooing. But he mentions it almost as an aside, and something distinct from his central discipline, so who knows!

In reply to malk: Thank you, Malk, though the main credit may be due elsewhere. Your post has an air of finality about it, which may be appropriate.

Until tallbloke finds that manuscript, of course!

In reply to Steve Parker: Keep the information coming folks - it's inspiring! Anybody care to put together a "beginners guide" reading list?