UKH

Our next door neighbour has submitted a planning application to extend his house. This includes turning the existing flat-roofed single-storey side extension in to a two-storey pitched roof extension. Said extension is hard up against our boundary, and protrudes beyond the back of our house by about 12ft. As a single-storey extension it's OK but making it two storeys plus a pitched roof will definitely make the thing loom over our back garden - plus the new upper storey's rear window will directly overlook our back garden. On top of that, they want to add a first floor balcony next to the extension which will also overlook our garden.

We want to object to the application on the grounds of overbearing impact, overlooking and being disporportionate. We don't have any experience of this so I was wondering if anyone on the UKC collective can offer any advice as to how to go about this in a way most likely to be effective?

In reply to Martin W:
Probably best to speak to the local planning office. Also, might be worth seeing if any other houses on your street have set the precedent with this type of extension.
Some good advice here:
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/general/faq/faqapplyprocess

In reply to Martin W:


Post dog poo through their letterbox.

(only joking)

In reply to Martin W: My experience is that on phoning the planning office and they will, in a very friendly way, tell you that anything you might think important such as views, style of extension, effect on value of your property is irrelevant and not a planning matter. You then write a letter trying to object on the very limited grounds that are deemed relevant, they acknowledge the letter and say they will give you the date of the planning hearing so you can put your case in due course. You then hear no more until bulldozers arrive. Hope you are bit more successful!

In reply to Martin W: Quickly put in an application for an extension longer than theirs with a balcony on the end. Sorry I couldn't resist. Sounds like it could be a tricky situation.

In reply to Martin W: There are certain rules of thumb a house extension should follow. For example, if you imagine a line going out from the middle of your rear-facing window which is closest to your neighbours house, at an angle of 45 degrees, that line should not intercept with their proposed extension. If it does then the extension will be classed as overbearing.

The planning officer should already know this of course, but a well written letter will definitely help. I should point out it's unlikely to lead to a refusal of the scheme but can lead to it being redesigned/scaled down. Also you have a very good case for removal of the balcony from the scheme and if it overlooks your garden it will almost certainly not be allowed.

Your local authority should have on their website an adopted plan (either Unitary Development Plan, Core Strategy or other adopted local plan) which will have a chapter on housing and a policy on 'Development in Housing Areas'. Have a read of that and quote it if you think the proposal breaches it. Also you want to look at any Supplementary Planning Guidance they have produced - most councils have a specific guidance document on designing house extensions.

You are already thinking along the right lines - ie you can't object based on 'it will spoil my view' or 'it will devalue my house' but you can definitely object based on overbearing, overshadowing, poor design and being out of proportion, and those are the things a planning officer will be able to consider. Please remember that if the proposed extension doesn't breach planning guidelines then they will be unable to refuse it, as their decision would just be overturned at appeal by a planning inspector.

In reply to Martin W:

a) Are the plans online so we can all have a gander?
b) If it's hard up against your boundary, how exactly are they going to build the thing without going onto your land. They have a right to do this, if required, for maintenance - but not for new works!
c) If the wall is on the boundary, where is the gutter? Overhanging your property?

In reply to Martin W:

If your in Edinburgh then you should have received the plans? We've always whenever one of our many neighbours have tinkered with their property.

They should be online at the council website but dont know if you want to give away your address.

In reply to Martin W:

You should by the sounds of it be able to have the window relocated or at the least have smoked glass put in, the balcony would be a weird one but check where the sun id, if it blocks your sun substantially I am sure this would be an issue??
Seems like a few already said check the rest of the street, thats the first sign of whether the objection will work - also have a word with the guy and explain your worries to him - they may be happy to accomadate you in terms of redesign as the last thing they will want is a neighbour war. Or is it?

In reply to Martin W:

Go and talk to the planners. It's very process-driven and 'what they're allowed to do' will be the determinant, not 'whether the neighbours like it'. If you object you need to have a clear basis for objection which the planners will recognise.

In the Lake District National Park where I live they're surprisingly human and have a regular drop-in facility where you can get advice easily and in plain english.

In reply to Martin W:

Bear in mind any written correspondence with planning officer may go on Council website for all to read. Our neighbours' did, and a fine rant it was too..... he was a little mortified....

In reply to Martin W:

Daft question no doubt but have you spoken to your neighbors of your concerns?

jk

In reply to Carolyn:

Martin is in Scotland where planning law is slightly different, but certainly in England and Wales any formal objection will be published. Certainly in the planning department I work in officers will happily discuss applications with members of the public and give advice on what are valid objections and what weight they will be given in the decision process. For a householder application, it will be an officer decision.

In reply to Nutkey:

In reply to Martin W: Neighbour relations will be great after you've objected! Is it really worth it?

In reply to Alyson: Thanks for that, sounds like informed advice! Are you professionally involved in planning in some way?

I'll check that 45 degree rule.

I've seen various rules about heights of side extensions, heights within a certain distance of boundaries etc but my understanding is that those are used to determine whether or not an extension needs planning permission in the first place. Do they have any relevance if permission is being applied for?

In reply to Nutkey:


They are, but I'm a little shy about revealing my home address, which would become obvious to anyone looking at the plans online.


This question had occurred to us. I'm not sure how it might be relevant in an objection to the application, however. I suppose it can't hurt to mention it.


The roof will slope to the front and rear of their house so the gutters will be over their property. Although I suppose the end eaves (and thus the last few inches of the gutters) may well end up being over our property. Sounds like one to check on the plans and discuss with council's planning dept.

In reply to Mike_Watson_99:


Aye, we received notification from Edinburgh council and we've looked at the plans online.

In reply to fozmeister:


He's on our north side so little chance of blocking our sun. (If anything, we might shade out parts of his garden at times in the summer.)


Good suggestion, thanks.


Hmm...well, said neighbour didn't choose to discuss it with us before the notification arrived. That doesn't exactly seem to be iniviting dialogue. But no, a neighbour war would not be high on my list of fun ways to spend my leisure time either!

In reply to Martin W: Sorry to be doubtful. We had the same problem last year, a small bungalow knocked down and a series of applications for huge replacements put forward. The council's own policy restricted the replacement building to not more than the existing plus allowable extension. They allowed a massive two storey house which is 240% of the original yet used the 45 degree rule against us. My carefully argued and lengthy assessment was just disregarded. And it was all passed by the local office under their delegated powers which of course only applies to plans within the policy. I suppose what I am saying is that the council officers will do what they want (are you in Cheshire like me?) If it looks as though the decision will go against you, it might be worth using a specialist solicitor even if they make the same comments. Their is one in Bristol near the Inspectorate of Planning. We are now having to decide whether to risk thousands sueing the council. The building has vastly reduced the value of our bungalow property. Good luck - let us know how you get on!

In reply to Martin W: Does objecting on the grounds of denial of natural light carry any weight these days, or is that what the 45 degree rule is about?

T.

In reply to Martin W: As long as they conform to local bylaws then you have little chance of preventing the building going ahed. You can, however, formally( in writing) state that absolutely NO work can be done from you property , no foundations or digging will be allowed on your property, no overhanging roofing, guttering or any other part of the structure is to encroach at any height onto or over you property and you reserve the right to IMMEDIATELY remove anything that encroaches and the responsibility for ensuring compliance like fully with your neighbours.

Then ensure that you clearly mark the boundary, if you haven,t fenced it already. Them make sure that you ensure that this happens.

You are within your rights to prevent any encroachment to you property by person or persons and have the right to remove anything from your property s long as you return it to the owners. If they build onto your land knock it down immediately but ensure that the bricks are left on their side.

In reply to Martin W: Each planning authority has different guidance on what is acceptable in terms of domestic extensions. Check the planning policy section on their website and see what it says.

If you are writing a letter of objection, make sure you are reasonable, don't just say we don't want it to happen. Chances are they will get planning permission for something but it should not have a detrimental impact on your privacy. If there are windows that will overlook your garden you can request that the Council adds a condition requiring them to be obscure glazed etc.

In reply to Martin W:

Yes.

Not directly. Yes there are rules which determine whether an extension is Permitted Development but that is not the same as whether or not something is likely to get planning permission. As you can imagine, refusing any application which wasn't already classed as PD would make the whole system a bit pointless in the first place!

If you want to drop me an email with a link to the plans I can offer further advice (informally of course!) but I understand if you'd rather not.

For reference, here's one of the most vague neighbour representations I've ever received. Try to avoid writing one like this!:

I can't see the roof now as leaves are on the trees. But I can't remember what the view is like in autumn and winter. I worry about the size of the window and whether this will be too much in the seasons mentioned if I can look straight onto the roof? The back bedroom of my house is also a study and I sit in there quite a lot. So, I'm sure if I do or do not object.I think there's some evergreen trees but it's hard to tell until leaves fall off trees.

In reply to Alyson: i always remember the letter objecting to planning permission on the grounds that he would no longer be able to perform naked pilates

NickB - ta, I'd missed it was Scotland.

Alyson - that's an ace objection letter, love it! The highlight of our neighbour's objection letter was that it would obscure the view from a window on his gable end. Which we (and also the planning officer, from what I've heard informally) were totally unaware was there, thanks to it being completely obscured by evergreen bushes 12ft thick.....

In reply to jkarran:

+1 talk to them. It might not solve it but at least it opens up the dialogue.
Tension amongst neighbours is a pain in the bum so I'd try and minimise it.

In reply to mgco3:


You can use this as a bargaining chip, of course. You might be willing to let them build hard up to the boundary (with scaffolding on your side) in exchange for compromises elsewhere in the design. Depends what's important to you, and to them.

In reply to Alyson:


Thanks for the offer. I'm going to talk the issue over with my g/f this weekend and I might get back to you. We have to respond by the 21st so not much time left!

Reference the 45 degree rule: the current single storey side extension seems to be within the rule vis a vis our nearest ground floor rear window. Our rear window on the first floor is nearer the to side wall of the house so I suspect that just extend upwards on the same ground plan like they propose then their new first floor might extend a little too far back. Or does it not work like that?

I had a gander around the local streets. Our house is one of about 90 properties built by the same developer in the early 1960s. Of the houses of the same design as next door, three have two-storey extensions similar to that being proposed - so it looks like there is a degree of precedent. OTOH I can see from Google Maps that none of those three have taken the two-storey extension beyond the original rear line of the property, whereas the current application is for the second floor of the extension to be 4.3m further back from the original rear line of the house (which is why we think it would blight our back garden so much).

As originally built the property had lounge, kitchen, bathroom and three bedrooms. The plan as submitted will give it two reception rooms, kitchen, five bedrooms, five bathrooms and a study. Could this be argued to be disproportionate? They already regularly keep five cars - three on the property and two on the street (actually, most of the time it's two wheels on the pavement, but that's a separate annoyance) - so they probably do need a bigger house. We do rather wonder why they don't just buy one?!

In reply to Winterbotty:


Can't help thinking that it takes two to tango. They're the ones planning a major change which will have an impact on us, and they've not taken many steps so far to minimise the risk of it causing friction. Not sure about it causing "tension", though: if they get what they want, we'll just have a slightly lower opinion of them than we do already (based on eight years living next door to them, not just because of this issue).

In reply to Nutkey:


The block plan does say "no part of building or foundation to encroach over boundary". It doesn't say anything about scaffolding.

Unfortunately it's fairly obvious from the plan that what's important to them is a nice new master suite (with a balcony) - and that's going in the bit we most object to! I'm not hopeful that negotiation would get us far in that regard.

In reply to Martin W: I have seen developments were a neighbour would not allow access and the building went ahead with the builder completing the works from the neighbours side (leaning over to do the pointing). Given the mess it was Iwould have given access!

In reply to Martin W: The nearest window can be on either ground or first floor level. It might be ignored if it was for example an obscure glazed bathroom window, but if you're talking about a bedroom or other principal room I would expect the 45 degree rule to be applied.

It sounds to me from your description like the extension would be classed as overbearing, due to the second floor extension going back from the rear building line. Get your objection in!