UKH

Hey,

Getting a bit stressed about an extension I'm planning. I have a builder keen for me to say yes to as he want to start in November. But I have two party wall awards to finalise and only just had questions back. Is it normal to commit to a start date before you have a party wall agreement? I have found the whole process awful and am minded to play it as low stress as possible, I worry the start date and PW agreements running into each other 

Thanks 😊

Miles

In reply to TheHorroffice:

No direct experience of this I'm afraid, but if it were me, I'd just keep things simple and wait for the party wall agreement to be finalised. Just be firm with the builder and don't be pressured into starting building works prematurely. The worse case scenario would be the builder gets booked up elsewhere and you have to start your works whenever he next has availability. 

In reply to GEd_83:

Thanks a bucket, really appreciated 

In reply to TheHorroffice:

Whose risk is it if the party wall agreement falls through and work has already started? If you can transfer the risk to the builder, crack on. I suspect he'd run a mile before agreeing to that though... which would tell you all you need to know!

In reply to TheHorroffice:

 No. What happens if there is no agreement?  Assume the worse. 
 

You need  to wait. 
 

A good builder will understand IMHO as they will understand the implications. 

In reply to TheHorroffice:

No idea if it’s normal, but I do not think it’s wise.   I imagine you’ll carry all the risk under such an arrangement.

If you’re confident the agreements will go ahead in time, you could ask the builder to inform you in writing how much work they can do without impinging on the area(s) that require the party wall agreement.  If you then authorise them in writing to proceed only on those works, this will limit your liability to part building an extension you can’t finish and not also to causing changes to third party (neighbours) property without permission, which should give you peace of mind you’re not going to get a lawsuit thrown at you.  Obvs. suggest you consult a solicitor before doing this to check your position.  

Not optimal, but if you’re worried about loosing the builder (I’m still trying to find one that’ll come back with a quote for a roof…) and confident the agreements will come through, it gives you an option.

 

In reply to wintertree:

Having recently had lots of poor experience with our building project. 

- presume nothing, expect the worse
- get everything in writing
- don't pay for anything until it is perfect, regardless of the 'schedule'

Your builder is not going to care about the wall!

In reply to compost:

Hmm, pass the risk to the poor builder, rather than have dealt with it in time. Great idea. For the skinny margin most builders make, yes, nail em.

If he/she is daft enough to go along with that,  don't expect them to be still trading and around to sit behind any warranty they gave you.

In reply to TheHorroffice:

Going through this right now as the recipient of a notice from the party wanting to do the work.

My advice,  FWIW, ok you need the formal agreements in place, but don't miss the importance of talking to the others involved and respecting and accommodating their concerns. A bit of dialogue can go an awful long way towards reducing your risk.

In reply to Wainers44:

That’s not the intended outcome though?

The intended outcome I saw is to get the builder to stop pushing the OP and to accept the need to wait for the legals to complete, by getting them to acknowledge that it’s unreasonable for them to proceed carrying that risk (as you acknowledge) and, by extension, it’s unreasonable for the builder to pressure or expect the OP to proceed carrying that risk. It’s a negotiating tactic not an outcome.

In reply to GEd_83:

Just to inject some pessimism - the worst case is likely that the planning permission (if this is not done under permitted development rights) expired before the builder is able to start the work.  In that circumstance the OP needs to do the minimum amount of work required to activate the planning permission so there’s no expiry clock ticking.  Assuming English rules.

In reply to wintertree:

I didn't read it that way. I read the OP might lose the "slot" of the builder being available.  Not sure why that was the builders fault? 

The pushing might just be down to the builder only being paid while they are working, and maybe being keen to keep working?

In reply to Wainers44:

Loss of a slot is not the builder’s fault, apparently agreeing a timeline before the legals had a target completion date is a mutual fault perhaps, but one one where the builder should be far more savvy than a homeowner.  I agree that loosing a slot could be what’s motivating the builder to push to start, but pushing to start is not appropriate, simply explaining the slot issue is - but there’s more to it as we both recognise…

Sure; and it may be that time was booked in the builder’s schedule for the OP as a result of earlier communications, now leaving the builder exposed to weeks without revenue hence the push, but that would be the builder’s fault for not bottoming out the risks of accepting the job (customer’s legals not completed, no pre-agreed target date) before accepting the job and block booking their calendar.

The lesson here is that project management matters, and there’s perhaps been a mutual failure by the client and builder to reach a shared understanding on a key milestone.  My preferred approach is for both parties to take that on the chin, each to learn from it and neither to pressure the other to move in advance of the appropriate milestone.  As things stand, a good builder shouldn’t struggle to pull another job forwards making space for the client later, or to find other work. So I’d expect them to do that with open comms to the OP, not try and pressure the OP in to making adverse decisions based on the failure of the builder to do sufficient due diligence.

In reply to wintertree:

Right, anyway.

A load of assumptions here, and views most of which I agree with if the assumptions are right.

But the outcome for the OP is a delay to his extension,  period unknown, while the good builder deals with the next one in the queue. 

My bite was the suggestion to just chuck the builder under the bus and give them the risk. The builder who didn't sound like had been involved in the delay to the PW Agreement so far?

Rugby on soon. Have a good.one!😁

In reply to Wainers44:

Thanks all, to clarify, current status is I have asked for quotes from 3 builders, still awaiting one, and I was intending to assess them all and pick one while I sort out the party wall awards. But the builders seem to have assumed they have the job and are almost complaining that I have not given them the formal go ahead as they have blocked the space for me. I'm really confused as I only ever asked for a quote and assumed they would know they wouldn't be the only ones in the mix. 

But thanks for the comments all! I will stick to my plan and have told them not to rely on me and I will confirm when I can. 

In reply to TheHorroffice:

Make it clear that you are asking for a quote and that you are getting other quotes. Ignore their bollox about blocking out time. Tell them you haven’t commissioned them to do the work yet and that you will evaluate competing quotes before doing so. Ask for client references on other work they have done. Don’t start anything until party wall agreements are in place. 

In reply to TheHorroffice:

That is a sensible thing to do 

Noted

 > and I was intending to assess them all and pick one while I sort out the party wall awards.

That is a sensible thing to do

They’re being shits.  If they’ve not replied appropriately for your request for a quote but are complaint as you say, it seems like they’re trying to apply pressure to circumvent the quoting process and force you to pick them *without an agreed price*.  Massive red flag.

Stop being confused and start being annoyed that none of them have engaged with your terms.  Check the language with which you asked for a quote, and assuming that it was not ambiguous you should then clarify - with simple language - to each builder what you asked them for.

If they’re all trying to pressure you beyond the terms you gave them, it suggests to me that you have the upper hand in negotiations.

In reply to TheHorroffice:

It's an agreement with the neighbours, a route for lower stress.

Starting without that tells your neighbours their agreement is unnecessary, which may be legally incorrect. It makes makes neighbours wonder why you bothered asking and antagonises when you may need their trust or cooperation.

In reply to TheHorroffice:

Avoid this builder like the plague.  You will not be able to work with them if that is their attitude. 

Good ones simply  do not do this. 

In reply to elsewhere:

I was assuming the neighbours were in agreement and it was stuck with the lawyers; obvs if you started prep away from the party wall in advance you’d do so in consultation with neighbours so they didn’t wonder what was going on.

In reply to TheHorroffice:

Going ahead with any work without a written agreement from your neighbour is a seriously bad idea. Apart from annoying your neighbour, you will be liable for any damage they say have been done to their property from your work. Although that sounds like a simple argument, it’s not. Without consent (and with-it shared photos of the proposed area from their side) you are completely liable for any damage which they claim was due to your work. 

With that said, you don’t need to spend a few thousand on a party wall surveyor to assess the proposed works. Just search online for an agreement you are both happy with, and ensure you both take lots of  pictures.   
 

In reply to Wainers44:

To be clear, since it was my comment you're referring to, this interpretation is 100% NOT what I was meaning.

The builder is putting someone under undue pressure to do something risky. If the builder is not prepared to take on the responsibility he's asking to OP to take on, he shouldn't be putting OP under pressure. 

In reply to TheHorroffice:

I don't have experience of party wall awards but it sounds like it is basically because your neighbours object to what you want to do and the PWA is a surveyor process to allow you to go ahead with minimal disruption to your neighbour and is something you have to get when you and your neighbour have already failed to agree a way for you to go ahead with your build.

To make any kind of recommendation, I think I'd need to know a lot more about your neighbours and a lot more about how PWAs normally go. They might be a formality barely more risky than renewing your passport or they might be fraught with dangers from the worst dimensions of hell, like trying to get planning permission in the first place. Your neighbours might be perfectly normal people who just don't want you to be working at 9pm in the evening or driving an excavator over their lawn for access but they might also be wealthy, determined and absolutely set on making your life as difficult as possible. I would guess that how long it takes to get the PWA and whether it gets appealed/challenged will depend on all these factors.

When I applied for planning permission, I spoke to all my neighbours first, tried to allay any concerns and, perhaps as a result, got permission granted in the standard 3 months that is the rule councils have to work to for simple applications. A similar application from about 2km down the road has been under consideration for 18 months so far, with many objections, a couple of big revisions to what is being applied for and no sign as to when the process might end. There are several reasons that have probably contributed to this but one of the big ones is that the applicant managed to rile up everyone who lives nearby.

I don't think I'm in possession of enough of the facts to be able to give an informed judgement on whether you should risk fixing a schedule for the builder but my gut feeling would be to assume that the beaurocracy over the PWA will take much longer than you think and if your primary concern is to avoid stress, don't agree a start date with the builder.

Builders want to push you into a specific start date a) because it means they know they have the contract and b) because it means they can organise their workflow over the next X months/year. They are pressuring you because they can (people say all sorts of garbage that is true, semi-true or an outright raging pile of lies when they are trying to sell something). What you need to say clearly to them is "I am awaiting another quote before I make a final decision" so they are absolutely aware that they can't assume you will go with them. For small jobs that cost £1k or £3k or something, you might do things a bit less formally and just find someone who seems like a fair price and say "go ahead whenever you have free time in the next few weeks" but an extension that is probably £100k needs paperwork everywhere and making sure the communication is A+ because everything just has to be a lot more organised.

In reply to Wainers44:

I think you know different builders to everyone else. Skinny margin - lol.

That's not to say I begrudge a good builder the money. No one is working for the good of their health but good builders are not on 'skinny margins' by any stretch.

In reply to TheHorroffice:

We’re having an extension built currently. The wall is not a party wall but we required access to the neighbours garden to build it. 
The neighbour drew up a list of things he wanted in return. One was way too expensive in my view so I went round (they wanted some bloody tinted render product on their side of our wall) to talk him into sand and cement and decent paint. No dice. 
So with two days to go to project start he demanded we have the agreement drawn up at our cost with a solicitor (700 f’in quid) and we pay a bond of £2k to be given back when he is satisfied. 

Get your ducks in a row first!!!!!!
 

In reply to NorthernGrit:

Any self employed person or small company needs a bit of fat, ie margin to cover for jobs that go unpaid or mistakes made in pricing.

In reply to pencilled in:

Sorry you have t**** for neighbours.

Worth pointing out that any dispute needs to be declared if selling a property. Do it carefully though, it applies both ways.

In reply to TheHorroffice:

Imho a party wall agreement and survey protects both parties and is worth the small additional cost. Stops the neighbour making unfounded claims, and gives him proper basis for any valid claim. It needn’t be too expensive on small jobs

In reply to Rick Graham:

They are total asshats; we know this. 

In reply to NorthernGrit:

Building is a trade famous for builders going bankrupt. I think about a quarter of the grand designs episodes end up with a builder going bankrupt in the middle of the project. 

Then there are the huge overspends which occur in more than 50% of the episodes (though that's more often something that affects the person whose house it is going to be).

If you point to a muddy field and ask how much hardcore to make a driveway and house pad, even a professional groundsworker is going to struggle to give you an accurate number of tons.

Every single project has unexpected overspends simply because it is a _huge_, complex organisation and that's even before the client starts saying things like "oh, could you just make that window a bit bigger", and "can we have an extra blah blah blah" - this list of changes, large and small on any self-build is huge.

I think the idea that builders are raking it in is a fiction and if their margins are higher than a supermarket selling milk and sandwiches, that is because their risk and cost variation is also higher.

Of course this isn't the case for every builder but if you could build a half million quid house with a 25% margin of profit reliably then a builder could smash one of those out each year and retire after a decade of work. I can't say I've seen much sign of this.

In reply to NorthernGrit:

Sadly you aren't correct.  Many do OK, however it's scary just how easily good companies can disappear. 

In reply to compost:

Put that way, fair comment,  but I didn't read it that way. The whole putting under pressure thing is a bit of a two sided issue though.  Pressure from the builders to get a little over 4 weeks notice to start isn't unreasonably is it? 

The answer to the original question is pretty clear though, without the PW agreement it's not in anyone's interest to start.

In reply to TheHorroffice:

I'd be careful of trades who pressure for time scales etc at the moment.

The building industry, though it has been strong could be on/into the edge of a "quiet" spell. I know a few builders who are looking a bit worried about the lack of work/ enquiries theyre receiving. Through covid they had loads going on - this has run its course. AND the cost of living thing is biting. They were getting multiple enquiries per day/week. Currently the phone is far quieter. Anecdotal I know, but.....

The local Travis Perkins is lacking foot fall in the shop currently (well vans etc in and out), as are several other suppliers local to me. Material cost has escalated significantly in the last couple of years and I think its hard to factor these increases into margins accurately. Labour, though its lagging behind a little is another pressure for another discussion. 

If the above is true, cash flow will be the next issue smaller builders will face.

It could be that the builder in question is short of work & may therefore have associated cash flow issues through the course of your project. Maybe a little due diligence would go a long way if the worst does happen (which it could in the current climate)

Good luck. A little caution and decent risk management, and you "should" be OK.

In reply to henwardian:

That's usually cash flow. Not margin. Also I'd wager there aren't many good builders going personally destitute even if their business wraps up.

Please note my use of the word 'good' This applies to their business sav as well as their ability to lay a brick. Also I'm well aware there are more than just the obvious costs - as someone else points out they have to cover things going wrong, admin, unknowns. Also as I stated within reason I don't begrudge it. I don't get it when people get annoyed that a builder is charging more per hour than they earn - if they were going to to work for an hourly wage they'd go get a job and outsource risk to someone else! I still stand by the fact that any decent builder puts plenty of margin in any job they do.

And good builders are just absorbing that are they? No they're passing the cost on to the client - or at least they should be!

In reply to NorthernGrit:

So easy when you put it like that. Of course unlike most other highly complicated, high cost product (or service if you prefer) the way the rules work, the customer gets the product before they've paid for it. And the whole premise of the way the industry is expected to work is for base cost, plus a very small margin. So you order your extra on your car, you pay what the constructor wants to charge, unlike the builder who is expected to be happy with just the sum of what the bits cost. 

In reply to Wainers44:

Skinny margins? Not the case at all, builders make very good margins, not sure why you would think otherwise. 

In reply to Kevster:

The classic builders skip on your road/ street index. I think it’s 2 skips for a very strong market.  0 skips means it’s not good.  

In reply to compost:

  The party wall act better referred to as party structures act  prevent any falling through and forces in agreement   The agreement may not be satisfactory to the Building owner BO and maybe  so restrictive  as to make  the work  non-viable 

As a BO  wanting to do some works that fall within the party wall act a  duty is to  can get consent  from the AO  adjoining owner  

 Notice is served outlining the proposed works 

 The notice is i accepted   Agreement is reached

 If ignored or challenged   A dispute has arisen

 The actuary or agent working for the BO can work  for both AO &  BO 

The AO can appoint there own agent 

if both AO & BO  work independently one of the FIRST dudes is to appoint a 3rd agent. This is to  prevent  a dead lock 

A award having been given is   Enforceable  But  open to  judicial review  for a short time.   

To the the poster who would not have cement rendering   How would you react to a outdated  and inferior product  ?

In reply to Andrew Breckill:

Umm, could it be family knowledge of the industry since early years, and then working in industry since I left school? There are builders, and builders (ie scale differences)

Good smaller builders, ie sole traders,  can make good margins, however some don't,  especially when your measuring over the long term. The industry is so cyclical. OK its been busy for a bit now, but then material price inflation has been 15 to 20% at times, so big volume could have meant big cost risk for relatively small businesses to cope with. Mr and Mrs homeowner has still wanted the best quote, and may not have been able to have the work done for 6 months?

Picture is now going the other way, as mentioned above, with activity, and cost pressure coming off. Now the other side of the market bites as prices (margins) fall as the market seeks work. The dilemma for the smaller companies is stay busy enough, and cut margins to do so, or do nothing and lay off staff?

If you look at the overall, if all builders make big margins, why did the sector experience the highest number of insolvencies of any sector in 2022, being nearly 20% of the total?

In reply to NorthernGrit:

In an ideal world it would be completely clear when something was a material change and when it was something the builder just hadn't noticed. And there would never be a mix-up in plan versions where it isn't clear if it was the builders fault or someone else's fault. So all the overspends could be amicably assigned depending, essentially, on who screwed up. But it's seldom so straightfoward in reality.

In reply to TheHorroffice:

If the builder genuinely is a good builder, not only will they understand about doing things the right way, they should also have so much work piled up and waiting I'd expect they would encourage you to do the agreement stuff while they jump on another job. It's normally the client trying to pressure the [good] builders to work for them. Not the other way round.

If they are being difficult already, make sure that payment plan/schedule is agreed... in writing. Like you pay them X when the footings are dug and signed off by building inspector. You pay them Y when the walls are full height. You pay them z when the roof and windows are on and it's  weather tight. Etc etc etc. And the final whatever when all snagging is completed. Make sure everything gets certs. Be careful if you are excavating near a drain/sewer as you need an agreement (and or survey) from the water company. I got caught out on that one 😟

If they refuse to agree a payment schedule. Tell them you'll get another builder