UKH

After advise please...

Various bits of home security footage has been shared by neighbours in my home town of a potential burglar trying windows of houses, and footage shows him exiting our garden before moving onto a neighbour's house (who had a security cam). So I am wondering about getting a camera for our own house but there are so many to choose from at such a wide range of prices - any advice from those who have taken this step would be very welcome.

My criteria - I don't want to spend a lot of money (£100 range) and don't want to pay a monthly charge which some cams seem to have for cloud storage and I don't want it hard wired int the house -s o battery (maybe with solar recharging but not essential)

Thanks

S

In reply to Spike:

I’ve got the Eufy ones, they’re great. Utilise my Apple cloud storage so no additional cost. 
 

Edit: just a look and a two camera set is about £160 on eBay but you might be able to find a deal or second hand set cheaper.

In reply to Spike: almost fits your bill :I’ve got a ring camera with Recharchable battery . Connects to the home Wi-Fi . Very small monthly charge for cloud storage . Small and compact . Was about £60 on sale .I would be surprised if you can find anything that cloud stores your images for free . There might be something that saves to a memory card but that’s a flawed plan unless the camera is difficult to access .

In reply to Spike:

Do your research early, then get them in Black Friday sale.

I dont think a camera will deter anyone, once they are round the back of your house. Chances are they will have a face covering/ hood and gloves. If you dont have a PIR flood light or two, that would be my first call. Cheaper than a camera. Also snap proof locks, if any of your back doors are using older locks.

As for cameras, I've got the Arlo one, which totally doesnt match your requirement. Expensive and cloud storage. I'd suggest that any that say 'we'll alert you on movement', may produce a lot of false positives when outside. Ones that can see in the dark will use a lot of battery, as they use an infrared light. So solar, is a good option. Streaming to a cloud service, perhaps icloud, as mentioned above is good. If someone gets in, they'll nick your expensive drive array with the footage on. If you dont have cloud storage, you'll need some local storage, which will cost extra.

In reply to Spike:

Another vote for Eufy - though mine save video locally on the Eufy system. They've got a higher outlay than most of the cloud-based systems, but then there are no ongoing fees.

I somewhat disagree about their deterrent value - mainly because the Eufy cameras have a built in alarm. It's not particularly loud, but when a scrote made their way into our back garden the alarm went off and they scarpered very quickly (and proceeded to break into one of our neighbours' sheds)

In reply to Spike:

Had a phase of a few people sniffing around the house and garden with a few local break-ins so went for Ring with 2x camera doorbells and 4 outdoor cameras with floodlights. Also fitted another 4 flood lights. Means you can't approach the house without being filmed or lit up. £80 per year to be able to review every visitor to the property seems fine to me.

Net effect is people stop at the end of the driveway, have a look and walk away. In 8 months not a single overnight visitor (apart from badgers which is another nice aspect of the cameras).

In reply to Spike:

Warning: this is owned by Amazon and available by Amazon, so this won't suit everyone!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/all-new-blink-outdoor-wireless-weather-resistant-h...

£89.99 for 1 camera and control box.

Cloud storage, but the free service stores enough for most people so I don't see any need to subscribe.  recordings overwrite when storage fills up, with free service (no subscription) option in a quiet area and 1 camera probably more than a month recordings retained?

Battery in camera... 2 x  *lithium* AA, not normal alkaline (not Duracell etc) and it doesn't work with rechargeable (their voltage is too low). How long the battery lasts depends... on how active the area is and also on getting the sensitivity right, you don't want to record every blade of grass in gust of wind and every time a cloud shadow goes over. If you get settings right and in a very quiet area I'd hope for 12+ months battery?? but it's a "how long is a piece of string" question. They claim 2 years and I don't think that's realistic in real life. You might record a lot of cats and foxes.

You need Wifi and the control box *smaller than a computer mouse needs power supply and Wifi. Camera needs access to Wifi and to be in range of control box

Small and unobtrusive you might not notice it, but looks like a real camera to someone who is looking about for cameras (i.e. deterrent)

App on phone. All easy setup (in my experience).

It should all just-work

In reply to Spike:

What's the point? Your neighbour's camera apparently didn't deter the burglar and presumably the footage they do have is either too poor and or the police too run-down to do anything pre-emptive. So what does the camera actually do?

jk

In reply to Spike:

Get an American Bully?

In reply to dread-i:

The above!!!! 

 If you don't know what that means prepare to be horrified

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKCgsuFpciw&t=1s

"Euro" format locks take a key from outside and a key from inside, they are 2 separate locks (keyed the same) or sometimes a lock on the outside and a thumb-turn on the inside but what they have is a cam in the middle, the cam operates the locking mechanism in uPVC front doors, back doors, patio doors etc etc. The cam is a weak point and the lock is easy to snap, this means the outer lock just comes out and them a small allen key or screwdriver (depending) can be shoved in and used to unlock the door's locking/bolt mechanism. It doesn't matter how secure the door and frame is if someone can do that

Some locks are "anti-snap". What that means if that there is a weak point in the outside facing lock in front of the cam - it will snap if someone uses a snapper bar (or other tool) on your lock, but snap in the most inconvenient place for them leave some lock in the door blocking anyone from being able to get to the mechanism or get hold of it to finish the job. EDIT: I know it marks EXT on the front in the pic, I think that's added on by a graphic artist for the addvert picture because I still recon it's the other way round, but follow any instructions with a lock you buy, not me.

Personally I use these https://www.trulypvc.com/locks-security/euro-cylinder-locks/high-security/y... but any "anti snap" lock is essential. (in the picture it is back to front, the "anti snap" weak point is shown in what looks like the rear of the pic (actually the rear in their pic is the outer lock) and you can see a "cut" line in the lock making it snap there not at the cam.  You don't need expert DIY skills to change locks, it should be easy. 

If you didn't watch the YouTube, watch it now and prepare to be very worried if you have bog-standards locks.  "Enjoy"

In reply to Spike:

thanks all, lots to think through.

yes agree to an extent on the 'what's the point', although in this case the neighbour's footage was good enough to correlate to some photos taken of a similar looking person with identical clothing in the daytime, the following day, in the town (by the neighbour) and the info has been passed to the police - but I accept that's a pretty unusual and unlikely thing to happen normally.

I do have motion sensing floodlights - but yes, a good suggestion, and I'll be checking my locks!

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Good write up.

A mate in a new build was broken into using this method. Nice new house, crap lock. There was a spate of them in my area, not long ago. A neighbour who lives with her young son, got her lock snapped. She heard the inner bit fall onto a hard floor, and turned the lights on. This scared off the 3 guys trying to break in.

It got me worried, so I did some research on how easy it was break them. Then changed mine. It was an easy job. Undo one screw, take out the old lock and measure it. Buy a new one of the same length and swap it out. Top tip is to get one with extra keys, as some locksmiths cant cut them. You can also get two or more locks that use the same keys, minimising the number of keys you need.

I'm curious what your disliker does for a job...

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Interesting video indeed! Prompted me to check my pvc doors, but no markings on the lock cylinder that I can see. They are recent doors (couple years) so after the 2011 date mentioned on line as when the anti snap locks started to be rolled out across the board, but with no markings it’s impossible to know. 
 

guess I need to ask a locksmith or the installers if they are still around. 

In reply to d508934:

Or remove the lock, see what it is, put it back in again. Replace if you need to don't if you don't.

They should slide in/out when the screw (note little screw hole under cam in middle of lock in pictures) is removed (door open to unscrew it) and the key is in lock and turned a little bit. You have to wobble it a bit and feel for it and it should draw out of the door with the key.

If you do want to replace it take measurements as described in my lock link above for anti snap locks, many euro locks are not symmetrical so make sure you note of the 2 lengths from the hole, which is the interior and which is exterior measurement .

Sadly you could buy an expensive security door today from a big name company and have it supplied with a bump and snap vulnerable lock

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Thanks - my concern with taking it out is that I have to remove the whole handle on both sides it seems. A little worried that it won’t all line up properly when putting it back together!

In reply to jkarran:

I tend to agree with this sentiment, but my partner is paranoid and I couldn't be bothered to argue, so we have two.

We have a Ring doorbell covering the front garden, and then because we were already bought into Ring, a Ring camera covering the garage (my partner's motorbikes) and back door. It is more or less impossible to get to any of the doors or windows in our house without triggering one or both of these, and I have no complaints about either of them.

While I wouldn't have bought them if I were there alone, we have had police coming to the door and asking if we have footage on two occasions, so police obviously do make use of this footage when appropriate, in hindsight if not pre-emptively. 

Of course, it's almost impossible to say whether we would have experienced a break-in or similar ourselves without them...

One of the hidden advantages is wildlife watching - I would not have known about the roe deer that visit our garden in the wee hours without our cameras!

In reply to d508934:

Depends .. you don't with most doors. I'd be surprised if you need to do more than remove the retaining screw (can see it only when door is open) and use the key to remove the lock. But to be fair, a few are a bit of a pig to get the lock out with the handles still on. 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Thanks for bring this up - I've done exactly that and am now planing to order new high security euro cylinders for my doors.  They are all about 25 years old. It was very easy to take them out to look and measure them for the replacements.  Might even have them all suited to use the same key?

On the camera front I have the blink ones at the front and back and one in the garage.  Only scheduled to come on overnight.  I have captured moths, hedgehogs, cats and a very active frog!  Oh and me stumbling home worse for wear!!  I don't have a subscription and all footage is stored on a memory stick.  Batteries have lasted well over a year so far.

In reply to Sherlock:

Funnily enough I once read an article written by an ex-burglar who said that they would sack off robbing any house if there was any sign at all of any dog. 

Doesn't have to be something big and scary as even a little dog is likely to wake up the whole house if someone it doesn't know walks in.

Just buy a dog bed and leave it in view and scatter some chewed toys and balls around the garden!

In reply to Graham Mck:

Not sure which locks you ordered. If you order ones like my link (which are very good!) you can't get them copied at key cutting places.

You get a little plastic card with the lock (Don't lose it or its very inconvenient) that has 3 letters followed by some numbers. Like B 1234, E 12345, F 12345 or something.

You use those numbers to order spare keys, you can do online or by post from the same people I linked above. If you are security paranoid like me I order the keys online and get them posted to a helpful neighbour. That way nobody making my keys knows the code and the address (so can't make my keys to sell  to a burglar). But I'm a bit paranoid 🤣. Anyway if it only comes with 3 keys? The the first job after replacing it is to order some more keys, like spare copy for neighbour or whatever.

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Cheers, but if I get all the locks suited (keyed alike) then I'll have more identical keys than I can shake a stick at.  Several suppliers will do this. I was wondering whether its a great idea from a security perspective to have all my locks taking the same key? 

In reply to Graham Mck:

Commercial premises there might be disadvantages, but domestic/home I don't see any concerns. If the locks are good, simple is good!

Plus it keeps locksmiths in business rekeying locks (IMHO the genuine skilled locksmiths, not the charlatans, are undervalued)

Unless of course you have domestic staff and wants to control their access to certain routes or areas/wings of your home -- in which case I've no experience to offer on those sorts of problems 🤣

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Whoever designed these snapable locks must have got the qualification out of a vending machine. Same for anyone who approved them. Surely the first criteria for a lock is that it can't be opened without the key. (Obviously expert lock pickers and cutting tools exist but that's not what we're  looking at here) you should simply be able to remove the bit the key goes in and just carry on without it! Even the anti snap locks don't seem much better, they still snap but just make it less convenient. I'm laughing hysterically and outraged in equal measure. Basically the key bit is just a decoration on the outside outside of the lock, which can actually be turned with a screwdriver.... sorry it's just too funny. Rant over

In reply to Graham Mck:

Presumably if someone has nicked your key and knows where you live, it doesn’t much matter which particular door they use to burgle you. They only need one key to get in. 

I suppose it would be a bit more expensive if one key had been lost/nicked and you wanted to replace the locks, as you’d have to replace more than one lock. 

In reply to Spike:

I have 1x of these - Netatmo Outdoor Security camera:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Netatmo-Integrated-Floodlight-Detection-Presence/d...

Double your price target .. but no cloud storage and replaces a mains fed outdoor flood light.  I rate it - has ran silently for 7(?) years now.  Has a nice feature in the app where it can categorize person vs car vs animal .. and you can set it to only alert you on those that matter i.e. people.

Re:  Prevent a burglar

Agree with what other have said - a camera on its own won't do it and even if you get said culprit on camera you'll be lucky if you get a face shot never mind a usable face shot.  

My recommendation:  A dog is the #1 deterrent ... although a big sign also saying "beware of the big dog" has a remarkably similar effect and costs significantly less. 

The way I think about it that's its a race to the bottom. Burglars, typically, look for easy targets - so I am told.  So if a burglar walks onto your street and see's 10x houses ... what you want is your house to look like the least easy option compared to the other 9.  You need to stack the odds in your favor.  For me - that means I have the camera to the front of the house where everyone can see - i want it to be seen and want people to know that this house takes security seriously.  Even though i accept that the camera will likely not yield useful footage ... its the sign it sends compared to the other properties around me that matters.  Don't hide your camera where it can't be seen - you want it to be visible to be a deterrent.  Same is true for the beware of the dog sign - stick it where it can be seen.  All about stacking in your favor compared to the properties around you.

Tell us what you decide to do.

In reply to Ryan23:

Good quality "Anti snap" locks are secure - as defined by your test "can't be opened without the key" (ignoring advanced locksmith methods not used by burglars).

They can be vandalised by being snapped, but that doesn't result in unauthorised entry. Being vandalised isn't good, but so can a window with a flower pot

But agree that non "anti snap" locks are a poor joke. The design of the euro lock is fundamentally flawed (that weakness in the middle with the cam and hole where the retaining bolt goes). The so called "anti snap" is a workaround, an ugly workaround, but it does make them "secure" (using your definition)