UKH

Hi everyone,

Searching for a bit of advice. I've got a broken combi boiler (Worcester Bosch Greenstar 30Si) which is 16 years old and not been serviced regularly (I think). A gas safe engineer has been round and told me that it needs a new fan. Quoted £300 for a new fan including the labour. This is the first boiler I've ever been responsible for (got a house a year ago), so don't have any experience on how likely it is that this is now going to be a recurring thing, where every year something breaks and I have to pay another £300 every year until it totally breaks or I fix the fan and it'll go on happily for another 5 years without much expense.

We could just get a new boiler for £1.9-2.6k ish and live happily in the knowledge that it's going to work and it's not going to cost us any money (bar annual servicing) until the warranty runs out in 10 years time or so.

Basically thinking that spending £3-400 a two or three times then having to get a new boiler in a couple of years anyway is quite a lot more expensive and stressful/annoying than just biting the bullet and getting a new one now.

Any advice welcome, appreciate this is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string.

Edit to add. Both options can take place in a similar timeframe.

Also have a Worcester Bosch Greenstar boiler and in the last 15 years its been trouble free, apart from service's no further expense.

I would get a new fan fitted and service as its a 90% efficient boiler so fitting new boiler you wouldn't gain a lot.

I get it serviced by bosch and they say the parts will be available for at least another 10 years and didn't recommend a replacement.

We moved into our house 12 years ago, and the boiler was I think 19 years old then. The fan broke about 7 years ago and nothing has broke since then. I’d spend the £300+ and take the risk.  

I've got the 27CDi (basically the same boiler) and it's about 12 years old now and still going strong.

I've had it serviced once in that time.

These boilers don't last longer if you service them. It's not like changing car oil which make the engine last longer. You will be told that it must be serviced every year or it will break, but I have it on good authority from an experienced gas safe guy that this is not true.

I do clean out the heat exchanger below the burner from time to time as it fills with crap. This may be illegal but any fool can do it. Cleaning it out improves its efficiency. What I'm not doing which isn't great is checking for gas leaks and a clean burn. I aim to do this every 5 years but I'm clearly behind. If not comfortable cleaning out the burner, I would probably service every three years.

If you pay £2.5k for a new boiler + a grand in services over 10 years, it's a pretty high price to pay. £350 per year.

Even if your old boiler costs £300 a year to keep going, it's still cheaper over 10 years.

I don't believe the efficiency of combi boilers have improved all that much in the last 20 years so I would keep the old one going.

I chose the Worcester Bosch as parts are plentiful and easy to replace. As long as your heat exchanger doesn't crack, then all parts can be easily swapped. The fan being no exception.

I would get it repaired, there's no guarantee, but you could easily go five years and nothing break. At least nothing expensive.

In 12 years of ownership I've only had one thing break that is the fault of the boiler. That was the pressure gauge failed. Bought one of eBay for £25 and swapped it.

I have no reason to believe anything will start breaking on a regular basis.

Worth looking at boiler cover for a boiler out of warranty. Few quid a month, or a bit more to cover unlimited call outs etc. I think money saving expert has a section on their site about this, otherwise try comparison sites. 

Look inside for any sign of leaks, and corrosion. If all looks ok probably go for a fan.  A new boiler isn’t foolproof. I put a new boiler it lasted till just out of warranty and then needed six hundred quid. It limped along needing £200-300 quid every other year plus servicing till it died after 15 years.

The service and maintenance insurance contracts aren’t worth it; ‘Which’ did a review and came to the conclusion that they all are, paraphrasing; crap value. With the recommendation you are better off saving your money and either spending it getting a proper service from a local trade you use year in year out whom then will be keen to help you in an emergency, or just saving the cash for the repair.

But there are no guarantees. Some old boilers are very reliable. My parents moved into a house with a 10 -15 year old boiler 40years ago. They replaced it last year and it very rarely needed anything doing to it. It wasn’t efficient by modern standards but the money saved in reliability far offset this. They soon learned the independent trades in town, whom said keep it, versus those with some sort of affiliation who would immediately say it needed replacing. If they had listened to the later they would have probably got through three boilers in that time frame and with more breakdowns.

Is it the greenstar CDI you have? If so it is really important that you change the seal if you are removing the combustion cover from the heat exchanger to clean it. If not, the heat from the burner will get in to the combustion chamber and melt the components. For the older non condensing upwards facing burners you can get away with just inspecting the seal, giving the heat exchanger a wee brush and hoovering out the bottom of the combustion chamber. It sounds like you're technically minded enough to do this yourself, although the combustion should really be checked after anything like this is done. 

The greenstars have a fan pressure that you check by connecting a monometer to see if the heat exchanger needs cleaned to save you removing the combustion cover in the first place. 

Top tip for the greenstars if you must service them yourself, bicarbonate of soda dissolved in a spray bottle is the best way to clean the deposits from the heat exchanger along with a skinny brush that fits between the fins, then remove and clean the condensate trap after.

While servicing won't necessarily stop the boiler from breaking down, it will show up any safety issues that need addressing.

Like someone has said above, a maintenance contract is a good idea. I have one and I'm an ex heating engineer, just so it covers the cost of the parts and an annual service, which I can't do myself as I don't have a flue gas analyser any more. 

I'm sure British Gas do a flat rate repair if you take out a service contract. Could be worth looking in to. 

Worcester Greenstar's tend to be one of the best boilers, between them and Vaillant.  

Thanks everyone, useful stuff.

I should have said in the first post that it does leak a bit, haven't noticed any corrosion inside though.

That 50+ year old boiler sounds impressive!

Get that leaked identified and fixed, it could take out electrical elements; wiring connections, boiler ‘controller’, LED display ect …. Then your bill will be a lot more than the fan. If it has been leaking a while it’s quiet possible there will be corrosion somewhere….well worth a hard look with a mirror on a stick and if you find anything discussions with your heating engineer.

‘Which’ is take on boiler cover contracts;

For most people, buying boiler cover doesn't work out cheaper than paying for services and repairs as they come, our research finds, year on year.

https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/boiler-cover/article/how-to-choose-the-best...

Full link to long to paste; but this should get you started to find it.

Our house came with a 45 year old oil boiler that I don’t think had been serviced much.  The flu was about 75% by area blocked by sulfurus deposits.  

It was still in a better state than the electrics and the first floor joists however.

I’m a great fan of having my boiler serviced.
 

I have one of those too, similar age.  Mine hasn't needed a new fan (yet), but it did have a hydraulic block (just a lump of plastic really) spring a small leak.  Perhaps yours has too though my leak was bigger by the sound of it, very much like a dripping tap.  I think the replacement part was about £50 and apparently quite easy to swap out.

In your place I think I would probably get the fan replaced on the grounds that a brand new boiler wouldn't really be all that much more unlikely to break down over the next year or two, and probably wouldn't be all that much more efficient either.

It's for you to judge what's most cost-effective.  We had a similar boiler to yours, and at about the same age it stopped working.  The chap who came to fix it said that he could get it going again, but there was every likelihood that something else would then break and the cycle would continue.

We got a new one rather than repair it.  Apart from balancing the radiators properly once things had settled down, we haven't had a problem since.

It's a right pita doing without a boiler in the depths of winter (December and January for us) but worth the inconvenience in the end.

T.

It is the Greenstar, but there are very different styles and I suspect you may be referring to a different version.

This boiler is similar to mine (except mine is a combi): https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/support/literature/download/6720815723

I think these are all pre 2012.

It's what I call the boxy one based on the shape of the heat exchanger. If you are removing the burner you absolutely have to change the seal. This may be what you are referring to (page 37, item k). I don't touch this, in fact, I don't touch the burner at all. Benefit to risk ratio didn't seem worth it to me. The instructions do have a big warning about replacing this gasket every time which is good to see.

I only remove the front facing access cover from the main heat exchanger to clean it out (page 36 item c). Instructions do say to the replace gasket, but not with a big warning. I've been advised I can just inspect and replace if required. I treat this to mean big warning = must be changed, little warning just check it's ok.

The other type of Greenstar, which i don't have, so not very familiar with is what I call the cylinder style. This one: https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/support/literature/download/release/67208...

I think these are post 2012.

From a quick check, to clean the heat exchanger, it's a bit ore involved, and on this boiler you have to remove the burner gasket seal, which again, has a big warning about replacing the seal (page 41).

Curious which seal you meant?

This is my main outstanding concern. Partially mitigated by having a service every five years.

Don't get me started on cars, never taken a single car for a service ever. But cars are my passion so I wouldn't allow a garage to steal my fun. 

We moved into a house 10 years ago with a 1972 boiler in place, totally reliable even without servicing. Used 2500l oil per year for heating and hot water. We changed to a Worcester 50kW and now use 1500l a year. Paid for itself in 5 years (including fitting) and nothing so far has gone wrong with it.

It was the "boxy" type heat exchanger I was referring to. As a matter of course when we disturbed the seal on the front of the boxy heat exchanger, we would replace it (we being myself and the other employers of the big company I worked for). We would be risking our jobs if something went wrong though. If that seal was to let combustion products out, they would then mix with the air being used for the gas air mixture, which would cause poor combustion, which would leak in to the air again, resulting in worse and worse combustion. For the sake of a seal that costs around £10 I would replace it if I were you. Especially because I'm presuming you don't have a flue gas analyser to check the combustion after you've cleaned the heat exchanger. 

Side note, the boxy or cylindrical heat exchangers are (I think) to do with the model of greenstar, not the age.

Full disclose, I didn't service my boiler once in the 10 years I was a domestic heating engineer. That was the very first model of greenstar, that also had the boxy type heat exchanger. 

​Getting yours done every 5 years is a good idea though, just for peace of mind. 

I just took out my boiler cover at the start of December, which also covers plumbing and drains. I had an urgent drain problem on the 1st of January, which would have cost a fortune to get fixed if I could find anyone to come out at all. Instead I just logged in to my account and booked an emergency visit and the guy was round within 2 hours. I feel that's paid for itself already. I get my service for the boiler soon which would cost around £100 a year, which is just under half of my breakdown contract.

In my eyes it's worth it, but I suppose it's a personal thing. 

It's a bit like contents insurance for your house. You're unlikely to get your money's worth for that, unless your house burns down or you get robbed, in which case it will be great value. 

My parents were in exactly this predicament in December, although the boiler is 35 years old and the fan replacement was £350ish. We got a quote for £2k for new boiler, but went for the fan repair, in the knowledge that if it breaks again we know how much a full replacement will be, and to have that money put aside in case.

I think it depends on what sort of person you are. I would replace it because I find it annoying making do with things that are not working properly or likely to cause ongoing problems.

Two observations:

Modern boilers have too many plastic parts that dont stand up to thermal cycling and become brittle and crack and leaks so things are unlikely to be fixed for good. 

It will be difficult to find a competent tradesman who can respond quickly if it breaks down in winter, as it almost certainly will by definition! Far better to plan its replacement in with a trusted gas fitter before it goes west. But as I say that's just me.

"We could just get a new boiler for £1.9-2.6k ish and live happily in the knowledge that it's going to work and it's not going to cost us any money (bar annual servicing) until the warranty runs out in 10 years time or so."

This is the bit you've got to worry about - my experience is that old boilers aren't really any more or less reliable than new ones and that the warranty is not worth the paper it is(n't) printed on!

Had a new fan fitted this morning. Heating back on!

Apparently the fan had failed because it had water inside. Engineer thought it had probably been blown in through the flue (horizontal flue at loft level, near top a hill where it's often rainy and windy). Anyone got any ideas on how to stop that?

You can get rain caps for the vent exhaust pipes.

Thanks, I'll have a look at that - not sure if we've got one already or not.