/ Bozzer

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bouldery bits 20:38 Mon

He seems to be doing alright don't 'ee?

I mean, I know it ain't perfect, and the NHS is creaking from years of cuts and all that bad stuff -and I'm absolutely not a Blue team voter - but I think he is making a decent fist of it. 

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DenzelLN 20:40 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

Agreed, thought the same myself

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Tom V 20:41 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

I still think his announcement of a few minutes ago could have been more specific with regard to exercise to put an end to all the quibbling and chipping away of the spirit of the thing.

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In reply to bouldery bits:

> He seems to be doing alright don't 'ee?

> I mean, I know it ain't perfect, and the NHS is creaking from years of cuts and all that bad stuff -and I'm absolutely not a Blue team voter - but I think he is making a decent fist of it. 

So, that there broadcast he's just done on the telly. It's a repeat right? Of the one he did two weeks ago yeah? 

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RebeccaMM 20:43 Mon
In reply to Tom V:

I think there's supposed to be more specific guidance to come this evening re practicalities etc...

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Philip 20:44 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

Really. The words are okay but he's not really got the personality to pull everyone together.

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ian caton 20:49 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

Never dreamed the end to freedom of movement was going to be this brutal. 

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Lord_ash2000 20:49 Mon
In reply to Tom V:

> I still think his announcement of a few minutes ago could have been more specific with regard to exercise to put an end to all the quibbling and chipping away of the spirit of the thing.

Yeah I was thinking that. Thankfully cycling is still considered okay so that put that one to bed. But I don't know if that was supposed to be a definitive list or just some examples of exercise you could do.

Post edited at 20:50
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WaterMonkey 20:51 Mon
In reply to Tom V:

I thought that. You’ll get people now who go climbing all day and say it’s their one bit of exercise. 
I’m glad they’ve shut electronic shops, I heard people were buying extra freezers to stockpile more food.

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Neil Williams 20:52 Mon
In reply to Tom V:

> I still think his announcement of a few minutes ago could have been more specific with regard to exercise to put an end to all the quibbling and chipping away of the spirit of the thing.

Have to see if people take the mick, but I don't see *much* scope for that.

Perhaps he should have said "from your home; do not drive or use public transport for this".

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Neil Williams 20:53 Mon
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> I thought that. You’ll get people now who go climbing all day and say it’s their one bit of exercise. 

He said a run, a walk or a cycle ride.  I don't see how climbing fits that!

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WaterMonkey 20:54 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Thankfully cycling is still considered okay so that put that one to bed. 

 

But again it’s still a bit fuzzy, is that a gentle bike ride from your house, can you drive to a hilly area and do single track or downhill mtbing?

I wish he’d said you can only exercise from your house, no driving first.

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In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Yeah I was thinking that. Thankfully cycling is still considered okay so that put that one to bed. But I don't know if that was supposed to be a definitive list or just some examples of exercise you could do.

Has it put it to bed? One period of outdoor exercise. That's 30mins according to guidelines. The stay in bit is the crucial part. It's why non-essential shops are being shut. Shopping for food and meds infrequently. They want you off the streets not on some five hour epic.

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WaterMonkey 20:55 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

I got the impression he was giving examples rather than a definitive list. I hope I’m wrong.

Post edited at 20:59
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mondite 20:58 Mon
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> I’m glad they’ve shut electronic shops, I heard people were buying extra freezers to stockpile more food.

Tad late for that. Not sure its much clearer that it was before.

So non-essential shops are closed but what about other jobs eg the various builders who are still working since otherwise their contracts get breached.

This use food delivery services. What is the government doing to ensure thats safe? No mention of banning those insane gather the vulnerable together in one place hours either.

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In reply to WaterMonkey:

> But again it’s still a bit fuzzy, is that a gentle bike ride from your house, can you drive to a hilly area and do single track or downhill mtbing?

> I wish he’d said you can only exercise from your house, no driving first.

They want you inside. Shopping infrequently for food and meds. All other shops shut. No they don't want you to go anywhere. You've seen the BMC statement alongside the MRT release? 

Post edited at 21:00
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Neil Williams 20:58 Mon
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> I got the impression he was giving examples rather than a divinities list. I hope I’m wrong.

What other form of solo exercise would you consider sensible in the circumstances?  I'm struggling to think of any.

If people take the p*ss out of this they'll ban that as well, hopefully not.

Post edited at 20:59
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mondite 20:59 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

> He said a run, a walk or a cycle ride.  I don't see how climbing fits that!


Those three were "for example".

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In reply to Neil Williams:

> He said a run, a walk or a cycle ride.  I don't see how climbing fits that!

People are also missing the bit about stay at home. 

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WaterMonkey 21:01 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

I don’t know what you mean? I think he has left it too open so you will get some who think they can go windsurfing, climbing, downhill mtbing etc rather than in the spirit of what he presumably meant, that is a short walk, run or sensible bike ride.

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GerM 21:05 Mon
In reply to mondite:

Any thoughts on bike shops?

Essential as some rely on bikes for transport.

Non-essential cos it's mainly a hobby. Not food, not medicine.

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In reply to WaterMonkey:

> I don’t know what you mean? I think he has left it too open so you will get some who think they can go windsurfing, climbing, downhill mtbing etc rather than in the spirit of what he presumably meant, that is a short walk, run or sensible bike ride.

The bit where he said the police now have the power to disperse and fine might just disavow them of that notion. Stay home. Shop infrequently for food and meds. One period of exercise. No interaction apart from people you live with. 

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Dave the Rave 21:06 Mon
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> I thought that. You’ll get people now who go climbing all day and say it’s their one bit of exercise. 

> I’m glad they’ve shut electronic shops, I heard people were buying extra freezers to stockpile more food.

Yeah. I saw five chest freezers on a trailer today on the A55, it said it in the box.

A woman posted on the Mrs’ Facebook that there was a power cut around here last Friday and all her stockpile was ruined.

Sorry but I laughed a lot and am still laughing.

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Neil Williams 21:10 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

> He seems to be doing alright don't 'ee?

> I mean, I know it ain't perfect, and the NHS is creaking from years of cuts and all that bad stuff -and I'm absolutely not a Blue team voter - but I think he is making a decent fist of it. 

FWIW I agree.  This wouldn't be easy for anybody.

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LastBoyScout 21:10 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

Anyone know about banks? Need to pay in a cheque for mother-in-law to cover a bill she needs to pay at the end of this week.

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bouldery bits 21:12 Mon
In reply to LastBoyScout:

Can you do an online transfer? Or phone  your bank and ask to make the transfer by Faster payments / BACs? 

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In reply to LastBoyScout:

> Anyone know about banks? Need to pay in a cheque for mother-in-law to cover a bill she needs to pay at the end of this week.

Give them a call? I know the wife has banked a cheque through her phone app. 

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DaveHK 21:13 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

I know we're supposed to have set partisan politics aside here but having watched both Boris and wee Nicola saying their piece tonight I know who I'd want to be running the show.

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Neil Williams 21:14 Mon
In reply to DaveHK:

Neither of them are "running the show", the civil service is doing that in reality.

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wintertree 21:15 Mon
In reply to DaveHK:

> I know we're supposed to have set partisan politics aside here but having watched both Boris and wee Nicola saying their piece tonight I know who I'd want to be running the show.

John Major?

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Lord_ash2000 21:30 Mon
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> But again it’s still a bit fuzzy, is that a gentle bike ride from your house, can you drive to a hilly area and do single track or downhill mtbing?

Yes, mean I was wondering that too. Thankfully where I live I can do a whole range of riding, mountain and road from my doorstep so I don't have that issue. But as always it's a matter of degree / risk. Me going to bomb down some black route is a bad idea because I'm not that good at mountain biking but someone else could be perfectly within their comfort zone. 

As with running, I have a friend who's an NHS worker and keen fell runner (10-20km over the hills regularly) so do they just go for runs around the local park now or carrying on what they do every few days? 

Would be handy to know for sure if you can travel for exercise though. Exercise has been deemed essential and you can travel for essential purposes so it seems like you can get away with it. Certainly some people's access to the outdoors is more limited than others and cars would be a must.

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Lord_ash2000 21:32 Mon
In reply to GerM:

> Any thoughts on bike shops?

> Essential as some rely on bikes for transport.

> Non-essential cos it's mainly a hobby. Not food, not medicine.

I'm going to guess shut, but I suppose wiggle etc should remain, maybe?

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Dave the Rave 21:33 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

He’s spot on. My only criticism is not doing it sooner and stopping flights to and from the UK two or three weeks ago. But, that’s his advisers fault?

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coinneach 21:37 Mon
MG 21:41 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> . Exercise has been deemed essential and you can travel for essential purposes so it seems like you can get away with it. Certainly some people's access to the outdoors is more limited than others and cars would be a must.

FFS just obey the obvious intent without trying to find lawyerly loopholes you can “get away” with. As a society we are trying this route. Don’t f*ck it up for everyone,.

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Tom V 21:43 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

For the duration, "the outdoors" is going to have to mean "outside you front door", not the nearest national park.

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wilkie14c 21:43 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Would be handy to know for sure if you can travel for exercise though. Exercise has been deemed essential and you can travel for essential purposes so it seems like you can get away with it. Certainly some people's access to the outdoors is more limited than others and cars would be a must.

This sounds like you are trying to convince yourself and you are testing the water

Post edited at 21:44
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Blue Straggler 21:45 Mon
In reply to MG:

Based upon a fair few threads and posts, I think you’ve got an Sisyphean task trying to convince Lord_ash2000 that his approach and attitude and opinions and actions need any modification 

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Blue Straggler 21:46 Mon
In reply to wilkie14c:

> This sounds like you are trying to convince yourself and you are testing the water

If he doesn’t like the water I think he’ll just jump in anyway. And then complain about it 

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Lord_ash2000 21:51 Mon
In reply to MG:

I think it's a pretty important question to answer really. Not everyone has access to exercise on their door step, there are only so many times you can jog around your dangerous council estate at night after work for example, but a 10min car journey to the local trails might improve things significantly for the individual.

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Jon Stewart 21:51 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Yes, mean I was wondering that too. Thankfully where I live I can do a whole range of riding, mountain and road from my doorstep so I don't have that issue. But as always it's a matter of degree / risk. Me going to bomb down some black route is a bad idea because I'm not that good at mountain biking but someone else could be perfectly within their comfort zone. 

> As with running, I have a friend who's an NHS worker and keen fell runner (10-20km over the hills regularly) so do they just go for runs around the local park now or carrying on what they do every few days? 

> Would be handy to know for sure if you can travel for exercise though. Exercise has been deemed essential and you can travel for essential purposes so it seems like you can get away with it. Certainly some people's access to the outdoors is more limited than others and cars would be a must.

Lord, boy we're getting to know each other ☺. 

It's a lockdown. The police have powers to enforce the lockdown. Shit just got real. Stay home. Shop for food and meds. One brief period of exercise (you know that is 30mins as per health guidelines). But really, it's mainly stay at home. That's what he said. To slow the threat of spread and, I really can't stress this to often, to stop the health service collapsing.

Please stop looking for ways "to get away with it". 

Post edited at 21:54
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Neil Williams 21:54 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

If, in relation to any given thing you are going to do, you consider that you "might get away with it", you have already worked out that it is the wrong thing to do.

(This is a modified version of something I say to Scouts a lot, which is "if you had to ask me if that was a good idea, you have already worked out that it isn't, haven't you?")

Everybody has access to the outdoors.  You open your front door and step out of it.  It doesn't have to be scenic and picturesque.

Don't take the mick and have us not able to go out for any reason at all.

Post edited at 21:55
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MG 21:55 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Tough. It’s not about the individual.

Post edited at 21:56
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Blue Straggler 21:56 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> but a 10min car journey to the local trails might improve things significantly for the individual.

It might ruin things for the species, you are being selfish in your faux-denial. 

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wilkie14c 21:57 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> I think it's a pretty important question to answer really. Not everyone has access to exercise on their door step, there are only so many times you can jog around your dangerous council estate at night after work for example, but a 10min car journey to the local trails might improve things significantly for the individual.

Who’s gonna mug you? other people who think the rules don’t apply to them?

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Neil Williams 22:00 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> I think it's a pretty important question to answer really. Not everyone has access to exercise on their door step

Literally absolutely everybody does.  You step out of your door and continue taking steps until you've had an adequate amount of exercise.  You can do this fast or slow as you wish.  If you're in a wheelchair, you wheel it instead.  If you must, get your bike out for it.

> there are only so many times you can jog around your dangerous council estate at night after work

If you're that concerned, go with others from your household or go in the morning instead.

In any case if you see others out who aren't doing what you're doing, ring the Police, they're now (or will be shortly) breaking the law.

Post edited at 22:01
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1philjones1 22:04 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

No, you can’t travel to exercise. 

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Drexciyan 22:07 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

Is he ****, rabbit in the headlights.

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BnB 22:09 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Yes, mean I was wondering that too. Thankfully where I live I can do a whole range of riding, mountain and road from my doorstep so I don't have that issue. But as always it's a matter of degree / risk. Me going to bomb down some black route is a bad idea because I'm not that good at mountain biking but someone else could be perfectly within their comfort zone. 

> As with running, I have a friend who's an NHS worker and keen fell runner (10-20km over the hills regularly) so do they just go for runs around the local park now or carrying on what they do every few days? 

> Would be handy to know for sure if you can travel for exercise though. Exercise has been deemed essential and you can travel for essential purposes so it seems like you can get away with it. Certainly some people's access to the outdoors is more limited than others and cars would be a must.

As others have already pointed out, this is clumsy sophistry to justify a desire that you know to be not just selfish and ill-conceived but also criminal in the moral and, since this evening, legal sense. For goodness sakes, stay in, take short exercise outside, alone without getting in the car, and work with your fellow humans to beat the virus.

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Ridge 22:10 Mon
In reply to wilkie14c:

> Who’s gonna mug you? other people who think the rules don’t apply to them?

That's pretty much the definition of any criminal, so I can't imagine muggers or burglars voluntarily ceasing work.

Post edited at 22:17
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mondite 22:10 Mon
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> It's a lockdown. The police have powers to enforce the lockdown.

Although from the sounds of it the cops have turned around and gone "ummm how exactly?" Would have thought Johnson might have managed to get that planned out in advance but apparently not.

Dont suppose you could help Johnson out next time round could you since you seem to know all the exact details. The "30 mins" for example comes from where?  The government advice is 150 mins of moderate or 75 vigorous with no specific split per day.

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mondite 22:11 Mon
In reply to Ridge:

> That's pretty much the definition of any criminal, so I can't muggers voluntarily ceasing work.


You never know. Someone desperate for their next fix might decide sod it too risky due to that virus compared to the drugs I use and go cold turkey.

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Blue Straggler 22:12 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> I think it's a pretty important question to answer really. Not everyone has access to exercise on their door step

You are using “essential exercise” as an excuse to exploit your time off and enjoy the outdoors. If you are scared of being mugged jogging around at 10pm, you can exercise inside. Look at Tom Hardy replicating the  “Charles Bronson” confined-space exercise regime for the film Bronson. Look at Emil Zatopek doing running training in his bath etc etc 

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wilkie14c 22:16 Mon
In reply to Ridge:

haha I failed there! Point valid though

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In reply to mondite:

> Although from the sounds of it the cops have turned around and gone "ummm how exactly?" Would have thought Johnson might have managed to get that planned out in advance but apparently not.

Well if we don't stay in we will have the Army on the streets. 

> Dont suppose you could help Johnson out next time round could you since you seem to know all the exact details.

Because he detailed them. Stay home etc. 

> The "30 mins" for example comes from where?  The government advice is 150 mins of moderate or 75 vigorous with no specific split per day.

Well my maths is rusty but (and I see you're quoting NHS guidelines. Good, I know them well) but it's 30mins exercise to a breathless state five times a week. Now that's 150mins. Since we're allowed one period of exercise per day that reduces the figure to 20 and a bit minutes over seven days. 

Listen, I'm no fan of Johnson nor this government. I think his handling of it is late and inadequate. But we are where we are. 

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wilkie14c 22:19 Mon
In reply to mondite:

That info would have already been decided on and they’ll be crossing the i dotting the T now, it can be cascaded down the line very quickly theses days. I’m railway not police but it’s worked for years now with us

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Neil Williams 22:22 Mon
In reply to mondite:

> Although from the sounds of it the cops have turned around and gone "ummm how exactly?"

I saw that, and I think they were stupid and irresponsible to issue that statement.  So incredibly British, but so incredibly foolish.

Police: "Bojo's told us to do it but we won't.  Ner".

All he said was they'd have the powers.  The fear of that would be enough for a good many people to rein it in.

Any such complaint should have been made in private direct to the Government.

Post edited at 22:22
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Neil Williams 22:23 Mon
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Nobody's really going to care if you go for an hour provided you stay away from people.  But don't take the mick.  No need to use the car or public transport.

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mondite 22:24 Mon
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> Well if we don't stay in we will have the Army on the streets. 

As badly stretched as the police. Besides what ROE are you suggesting they get given? Could be a bit dangerous opening up in a suburb.

> Because he detailed them. Stay home etc. 

So I am a builder. Its my job essential? Have lots of construction workers currently having to go in since their companies dont want to breach a contract.

> Well my maths is rusty but (and I see you're quoting NHS guidelines. Good, I know them well) but it's 30mins exercise to a breathless state five times a week. Now that's 150mins. Since we're allowed one period of exercise per day that reduces the figure to 20 and a bit minutes over seven days. 

So now we are down to 20 minutes? Or if I go for a hard run 10 minutes. Gone down dramatically from your definitive 30 minutes which we all knew.

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Neil Williams 22:25 Mon
In reply to mondite:

> So I am a builder. Its my job essential?

No, it's not.

The list of key workers has already been issued re kids still going to school.  It's that.

The issue of breaching contracts will be sorted out.

Post edited at 22:27
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Blue Straggler 22:25 Mon

has Lord_Ash2000 gone in search of a forum who will agree with his attitudes to what you can get away with regarding driving somewhere to make “essential exercise” into a jolly pleasant recreational activity? He’s become rather quiet on this thread in the wake of the universal disapproval of his post(s). I hope we aren’t bullying him. 

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Neil Williams 22:26 Mon
In reply to Blue Straggler:

It is I suppose possible he's just trolling.

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Davidlees215 22:27 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

When he says only essential work, what does he mean by that?

My company is mainly an asbestos consultancy, although I do a few other things as well.

Most of the work is not essential but none of the staff know whether to go to work tomorrow as no one's said anything. 

There are some essential jobs such as people's boilers breaking and needing to know if they have asbestos panels on the back before they're replaced/ fixed. And there was the time last year a ceiling in a hospital ward caved in with asbestos debris ending up all over the floor. But most of the work is routine and saying only going out for essential work seems a bit vague which is why I'm guessing work will stay open.

Bit mad announcing it at 830pm as well as I'm sure plenty will go to bed without checking social media/ news and just go to work tomorrow. 

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Timmd 22:28 Mon
In reply to GerM:

> Any thoughts on bike shops?

> Essential as some rely on bikes for transport.

> Non-essential cos it's mainly a hobby. Not food, not medicine.

I have a funny feeling they'll close, there could possibly be online ordering though?

Post edited at 22:28
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Neil Williams 22:28 Mon
Neil Williams 22:29 Mon
In reply to Timmd:

I wouldn't call bikes essential, to be honest.  It would take longer, but journeys that can be made by bike are pretty much by definition able to be made on foot if necessary.  Run if you want to get there quicker.

Post edited at 22:29
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MG 22:29 Mon
In reply to mondite:

> So now we are down to 20 minutes? Or if I go for a hard run 10 minutes. Gone down dramatically from your definitive 30 minutes which we all knew.

Just possibly in the largest public health emergency for decades that is srtretching all the civil service, presice details of exercise allowed, expressed in nice font, wont be a priority. How about just behaving responsibly in line with the instructions?

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Neil Williams 22:30 Mon
In reply to MG:

"If you think you even might be taking the mick, you are.  Don't"

That do?

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mondite 22:31 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

> All he said was they'd have the powers.  The fear of that would be enough for a good many people to rein it in.

Apart from what happens if someone calls the bluff and they see a crowd tomorrow? Its not like Johnson and co havent had time to plan this and talk it through with them.  Its them who will get the blame when the daily hate does some more long lens photos to compress people together tomorrow so its not unreasonable for them to point out they need more to work with.

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Blue Straggler 22:32 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It is I suppose possible he's just trolling.

I find this unlikely , based on previous posting history. He may be back to protest innocence and say his words have been twisted; if I were him I wouldn’t bother though 

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wilkie14c 22:34 Mon
In reply to Davidlees215:

I’m sure there are management teams across every industry all watching the PMs address and are planing they are going to cascade things down the line. tens of thousands will be waking up to voice mails, texts and emails

There are going to be holes sure and allowances would be made for those on their way into work and haven’t been told

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mondite 22:35 Mon
In reply to MG:

>  How about just behaving responsibly in line with the instructions?

I am interested in Stuart (aka brt) expert knowledge of what the instructions are and so am curious as to how he got the details that have been missed by Johnson.

To show how people are going to game the system. Sports Direct have apparently written to their staff tonight saying they will be intending to remain open since they can help keep people healthy.

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In reply to mondite:

> As badly stretched as the police. Besides what ROE are you suggesting they get given? Could be a bit dangerous opening up in a suburb.

They managed to quell civil disorder in NI fairly effectively. 

> So I am a builder. Its my job essential? Have lots of construction workers currently having to go in since their companies dont want to breach a contract.

Unfortunately if they're not key workers they shouldn't be going in. What do you want me to say? I'm sure being a builder is going to be tough right now. For what it's worth I've lost all this years work. Nothing. We'll manage, but it'll be tight. 

> So now we are down to 20 minutes? Or if I go for a hard run 10 minutes. Gone down dramatically from your definitive 30 minutes which we all knew.

Mondite, you seem to be making me out to be the bad guy here. I'm not. There is no bad guy. You're sending us down the rabbit hole with the exercise and how many minutes. The 30 minutes five times a week is familiar to most of us that run or bicycle. People were looking to use the term exercise to somehow use it as an excuse to cheat the system. I get it - 'civil liberties why should I? I'm not one of those people spreading the virus and putting the NHS at breaking point. That's other people that is.'

Well it's not. Other people are all of us. 

Post edited at 22:41
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In reply to Blue Straggler:

> has Lord_Ash2000 gone in search of a forum who will agree with his attitudes to what you can get away with regarding driving somewhere to make “essential exercise” into a jolly pleasant recreational activity? He’s become rather quiet on this thread in the wake of the universal disapproval of his post(s). I hope we aren’t bullying him. 

In all seriousness I hope we're not. 

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Timmd 22:39 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I wouldn't call bikes essential, to be honest.  It would take longer, but journeys that can be made by bike are pretty much by definition able to be made on foot if necessary. 

> Run if you want to get there quicker.

Unless somebody has a dodgy knee (or knees)? [Raises hand]

Post edited at 22:40
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Ridge 22:44 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It is I suppose possible he's just trolling.

For the sake of argument I'll assume he isn't. I can cover far more distance (and potentially encounter more people) in a 30 min round trip from the door on the bike than a 5 min each way trip in the car to a quiet trail and 30 min run. My chances of ending up in hospital on a 30 bike ride on the road is probably higher.

I won't be doing either purely to reduce social contact, but I can't see anything in the guidance 'banning' driving to a suitable open air exercise area.

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wilkie14c 22:44 Mon
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

We aren’t bullying him, simply stating some common sense with the sole purpose of widening his knowledge 

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Davidlees215 22:47 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

He didn't say that though. I'm sure there are lots of things missing from the list that it would be hard to argue against being essential. 

An 90 year olds boiler breaking down requiring a plumber I would say is essential work. But then it gets complicated, what about a 70 year olds, or someone with a newborn? 

The list under utilities says 'workers involved in, but not limited to....' which leaves it open to interpretation. 

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Blue Straggler 22:48 Mon
In reply to mondite:

> To show how people are going to game the system. Sports Direct have apparently written to their staff tonight saying they will be intending to remain open since they can help keep people healthy

I was just saying to my Dad earlier “I wonder who’s going to try to exploit or, if you like, OPTIMISE, the situation in their favour”. I should not be surprised that Sports Direct is one, but I wonder what their “game” really is . 

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Tringa 22:50 Mon
In reply to MG:

> FFS just obey the obvious intent without trying to find lawyerly loopholes you can “get away” with. As a society we are trying this route. Don’t f*ck it up for everyone,.


Spot on.

Dave

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mondite 22:50 Mon
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> They managed to quell civil disorder in NI fairly effectively. 

If you call bombs going off and so on quelling fair effective I guess so. lets hope they dont take your lead though.

> Unfortunately if they're not key workers they shouldn't be going in. What do you want me to say?

As it happens people have been specifically asking about construction. Robert Jenrick (who if like me you have never heard of him before is the communities secretary of state) tweeted about an hour ago saying it can continue.

https://twitter.com/RobertJenrick/status/1242210351007096836

I take it you will be putting him right?

> Mondite, you seem to be making me out to be the bad guy here. I'm not. There is no bad guy. You're sending us down the rabbit hole with the exercise and how many minutes.

Nope. I am challenging all the absolute claims you are making. Its as simple as that.

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Pyreneenemec 22:52 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

Lock-down France :

The definition of 'exercise' was more clearly given by the French PM , Edouard Philippe this evening. Will be tolerated 1 hour of exercise, up to 1 km from your home. I think  the Government just woke up to the fact that the stress created by confinement would do more harm than the Coronavirus itself. 

It's a small price to pay when you consider the huge sacrifice being made by health workers. Five docteurs are amongst the  860 dead from the virus in France.

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In reply to mondite:

> If you call bombs going off and so on quelling fair effective I guess so. lets hope they dont take your lead though.

What lead? I'm not advocating civil violence. Quite the opposite. I think we should all comply and not look for loopholes. 

> As it happens people have been specifically asking about construction. Robert Jenrick (who if like me you have never heard of him before is the communities secretary of state) tweeted about an hour ago saying it can continue.

> I take it you will be putting him right?

I've nothing to put him right about. If they're on the key worker list then they will be working. I was merely pointing out a source for you to check. Glad it means you can stay working. 

> Nope. I am challenging all the absolute claims you are making. Its as simple as that.

I'm not making absolute claims about anything. There are guidelines on what that means and you can be sure it's what Johnson will refer to if compliance becomes an issue. How much exercise do you think he meant? 

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MonkeyPuzzle 23:26 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> , there are only so many times you can jog around your dangerous council estate at night after work for example, 

On which dangerous-to-jog-around council estate do you live? Maybe we know some good places near you.

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Lord_ash2000 23:26 Mon
In reply to wilkie14c:

Sorry to disappoint but I went to bed, unfortunately I've made the mistake of looking at my phone.

We'll see when this is all over how many deaths we have from suicide nation wide in the next few months and maybe then we can debate again over the pros and cons of a little flexibility dependent on personal circumstances rather than nonsense "what if's" when somehow getting in a car to jog in an empty field is reckless but jogging around an urban area full of hazards and more importantly people is perfectly fine. 

Goodnight.

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Blue Straggler 23:32 Mon
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Mental health issues around “lockdown” have been brought up several times on this topic in the past few weeks. I didn’t see you contributing to the subject back then, yet now you seem (behind your vaguely threatening tone) suddenly quite passionate about it. 

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Blue Straggler 23:37 Mon
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> On which dangerous-to-jog-around council estate do you live? Maybe we know some good places near you

Don’t worry, he’s not worried for himself and apparently does not need to travel by car in order to have enjoyable exercise. It seems that he’s simply been speaking up for the less fortunate. 

”Thankfully where I live I can do a whole range of riding, mountain and road from my doorstep so I don't have that issue.”

So he won’t be pratting about driving 10 minutes to his nearest woods, as he doesn’t need to. So that’s nice 

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FactorXXX 23:39 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

That's only really people that are required to maintain the infrastructure of the country as a whole to keep it running. 
There's also a whole lot of people that are required to maintain systems within individual companies so as to ensure that they don't catastrophically fail, etc. 
Also, I assume that Security Personnel will still have to be used to protect companies from people taking advantage of the current situation.
Be interesting to see how this all pans out...

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MonkeyPuzzle 23:42 Mon
In reply to Blue Straggler:

That's good to know. I often worry about getting mugged for my, um, shorts? when I'm out running.

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jkarran 23:50 Mon
In reply to bouldery bits:

I think he f*cked up really badly early on, it'll take months, thousands of lives, hundreds of thousands of jobs to regain the ground lost to his madcap scheme and subsequent dithering. Now he appears to be taking advice from medics and scientists ahead of Cummings. One star, Not impressed.

Jk

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LastBoyScout 23:50 Mon
In reply to GerM:

> Any thoughts on bike shops?

> Essential as some rely on bikes for transport.

> Non-essential cos it's mainly a hobby. Not food, not medicine.

Bike shops are allowed to remain open, according to latest update this evening

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jkarran 23:53 Mon
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> I’m glad they’ve shut electronic shops, I heard people were buying extra freezers to stockpile more food.

I bought a freezer because I need a freezer. I hope it turns up. 

Jk

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jkarran 00:05 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It is I suppose possible he's just trolling.

It would be a true labour of love if so sustained over so many years!

Jk

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Blue Straggler 00:11 Tue
In reply to LastBoyScout:

> Bike shops are allowed to remain open, according to latest update this evening

Correct. I am going to post a link on a new thread, showing what’s being allowed to still operate 

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Jon Stewart 00:31 Tue
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> If they're on the key worker list then they will be working.

Confusingly, not all key workers are working. I'm a key worker (optometrist) but since only a few of us are needed to deal with acute eye problems and provide glasses for people in urgent need of them, I've been sent home (although I might be redeployed somewhere). As far as I understand it, the key worker list just means those whose kids can still go to school at the moment.

This might be purely a quirk of my profession though, where we like to mix up serious "key" healthcare work with "banned" frivolous retail in a way that can leave the patient/consumer not entirely sure what exactly is going on...

Post edited at 00:31
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Roadrunner6 02:53 Tue
In reply to DenzelLN:

Is this for real?

hes a week late at least having watched other countries go through this process. He’s been a disaster and many will die.

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mondite 07:39 Tue
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> I've nothing to put him right about. If they're on the key worker list then they will be working. I was merely pointing out a source for you to check. Glad it means you can stay working. 

I aint a construction worker but, unlike yourself, rather than uttering platitudes I am interested in an actual working system. So currently we have large construction sites with lots of people from all over an area getting together. They wont stop doing so since if they do they get hit with contractual breaches so need the government to protect them. So why not provide that and do something a lot more effective in both stopping transmission of the virus and also potential workplace injuries?

> I'm not making absolute claims about anything.

Yes you have. You have made it on exercise and on construction not being permitted. 

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In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Confusingly, not all key workers are working. I'm a key worker (optometrist) but since only a few of us are needed to deal with acute eye problems and provide glasses for people in urgent need of them, I've been sent home (although I might be redeployed somewhere). As far as I understand it, the key worker list just means those whose kids can still go to school at the moment.

> This might be purely a quirk of my profession though, where we like to mix up serious "key" healthcare work with "banned" frivolous retail in a way that can leave the patient/consumer not entirely sure what exactly is going on...

Confusion does appear to be a feature of the government's response.

Notable that last night the setting was different. More formal, less press room matey. I've heard but don't know as I'm not a massive Twitter user, that it was prerecorded and put out on Twitter simultaneously. So his inner desire to go off script could be kept in check? 

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In reply to mondite:

> I aint a construction worker but, unlike yourself, rather than uttering platitudes I am interested in an actual working system.

I mean this respectfully, we all need a working system. My insistence on staying in is because the virus doesn't spread, we spread the virus etc. That works. I've not uttered platitudes. If that's what you think it wasn't my intention. 

> So currently we have large construction sites with lots of people from all over an area getting together. They wont stop doing so since if they do they get hit with contractual breaches so need the government to protect them. So why not provide that and do something a lot more effective in both stopping transmission of the virus and also potential workplace injuries?

I am absolutely on side with you on this. His response has been dire. And this isn't a platitude - you should not have to be put in this position. This should not be your decision to have to make. My work stopped which was done deal for me. 

> Yes you have. You have made it on exercise and on construction not being permitted. 

I made the comment about exercise because someone asked, because of lack of clear guidance from the PM, what exercise means. We can agree/disagree if that's enough, but I think we'd just go round on circles. Worth being mindful that in France and Italy things are tighter there on the exercise issue because people were pushing the envelope. We rule by consent in the UK. I don't want that to change. 

For construction, to be fair, I don't recall saying that construction shouldn't be going ahead. I offered up the key worker list as examples of things the government view as essential. 

Listen, lots of heat, not enough light sometimes. Stressful for all of us and sounds like more so for you. I sincerely hope the government do something sensible to help you and your colleagues. 

Stuart out. 

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wercat 09:00 Tue
In reply to WaterMonkey:

no, not an impression - he used the words "For Example".

He also said close all shops selling non-essential items.  That will mean all shops closed apart from arguably pharmacies.

His words frankly were shambolically unclear

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wercat 09:05 Tue
In reply to FactorXXX:

anyone whose income is not supported and whose work supports a family is a key worker.   The government may change that by supporting everyone but till that happens some people will be key workers whatever their occupation.

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Lord_ash2000 09:07 Tue
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

I'm curious, do you, blue straggler, MG and the rest of the don't do anything brigade actually climb, cycle, run etc? 

I've looked at your log books and they either don't exist or haven't been updated in a long time.

This isn't just me having an attack, I'm just trying to get some perspective on your point of view and trying to offer you some on mine.

It's very easy to say "don't do this that or the other" or "I've given up xyz so so should you" when you don't really do any of those things anyway or when you do it's at best an occasional hobby you do for the odd potter rather than your life's passion.  Becuase for some people climbing is their life. In my case it's what I've done in one form or another 2 or 3 times a week almost every week since I was 11 years old. It's almost my whole social life, a significant part of my job and obviously my main sporting activity. Life, relationships, work etc fits around climbing not the other way around.

So I think you all need to bare in mind that not climbing (or sport of choice) all of a sudden isn't some trivial thing for a lot of people and they are not going to take it lightly. 

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MG 09:11 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> I'm curious, do you, blue straggler, MG and the rest of the don't do anything brigade actually climb, cycle, run etc? 

Less than I used but yes.  So far I have cancelled two alps trips this year due to coronvirus.

>   Becuase for some people climbing is their life. In my case it's what I've done in one form or another 2 or 3 times a week almost every week since I was 11 years old. It's almost my whole social life,

Unless you are a guide or similar (in which case you have my sympathy), climbing is not "your life".  It's a hobby.  Of course it is inconvenient to stop it but can you really not see that compared to 100,000s of lives, that is a pretty trivial matter.

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Harry Jarvis 09:15 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> I'm curious, do you, blue straggler, MG and the rest of the don't do anything brigade actually climb, cycle, run etc? 

> I've looked at your log books and they either don't exist or haven't been updated in a long time.

Do remember that this isn't just UK Climbing. It's also UK Hillwalking. It may be that those of us hillwalkers are less inclined to use the logbooks here. 

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BnB 09:20 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> It's very easy to say "don't do this that or the other" or "I've given up xyz so so should you" when you don't really do any of those things anyway or when you do it's at best an occasional hobby you do for the odd potter rather than your life's passion.  Becuase for some people climbing is their life. In my case it's what I've done in one form or another 2 or 3 times a week almost every week since I was 11 years old. It's almost my whole social life, a significant part of my job and obviously my main sporting activity. Life, relationships, work etc fits around climbing not the other way around.

> So I think you all need to bare in mind that not climbing (or sport of choice) all of a sudden isn't some trivial thing for a lot of people and they are not going to take it lightly. 

Millions have been forced to give up the work and income that is the biggest part of their lives, not to mention that it feeds and houses their families. Can you not see how selfish and juvenile you are coming across?

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tjdodd 09:28 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Becuase for some people climbing is their life. In my case it's what I've done in one form or another 2 or 3 times a week almost every week since I was 11 years old. It's almost my whole social life, a significant part of my job and obviously my main sporting activity. Life, relationships, work etc fits around climbing not the other way around.

> So I think you all need to bare in mind that not climbing (or sport of choice) all of a sudden isn't some trivial thing for a lot of people and they are not going to take it lightly. 

What you are describing will be true for many people and I get the impression that most of these people are willing to make the sacrifice for what will hopefully be a relatively short period of time.

Take this time as an opportunity to try new things and broaden your perspective.  To me the wording you use describes an addiction and actually some forced time to do other things is probably not a bad thing.  You never know, you might actually find other activities that you will continue and can be a balance with climbing longer term.

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wintertree 09:30 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> So I think you all need to bare in mind that not climbing (or sport of choice) all of a sudden isn't some trivial thing for a lot of people and they are not going to take it lightly. 

The lack of perspective shown by this and another poster (who apparently had their self justifying thread pulled in shame when they looked at what they wrote) is astounding.

Do you think any of the other actions people are taking are “trivial”?  

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In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> I'm curious, do you, blue straggler, MG and the rest of the don't do anything brigade actually climb, cycle, run etc? 

> I've looked at your log books and they either don't exist or haven't been updated in a long time.

> This isn't just me having an attack, I'm just trying to get some perspective on your point of view and trying to offer you some on mine.

> It's very easy to say "don't do this that or the other" or "I've given up xyz so so should you" when you don't really do any of those things anyway or when you do it's at best an occasional hobby you do for the odd potter rather than your life's passion.  Becuase for some people climbing is their life. In my case it's what I've done in one form or another 2 or 3 times a week almost every week since I was 11 years old. It's almost my whole social life, a significant part of my job and obviously my main sporting activity. Life, relationships, work etc fits around climbing not the other way around.

> So I think you all need to bare in mind that not climbing (or sport of choice) all of a sudden isn't some trivial thing for a lot of people and they are not going to take it lightly. 

Hello Lord. Good to have you back, genuinely. Because from what you've just said, you're deeply effected by this and I get you are venting.

So in answer to your questions:

I've never bothered with the logbook. My guidebooks are full of ticks and still counting. I'm sub 40mins for 10k (I'm 51). Too many mountain marathons to mention. Caving as well.

I'm also an instructor. My work has stopped. Nothing. So in terms of vested interest I'm absolutely in on it socially and professionally.

Stay sane. 

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Al_Mac 09:42 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> I'm curious, do you, blue straggler, MG and the rest of the don't do anything brigade actually climb, cycle, run etc? 

> I've looked at your log books and they either don't exist or haven't been updated in a long time.

I climb, I run, I ride steep mtb trails, I cycle into the hills - I love being outside. I like driving (fast) cars too. But you know what? For three weeks or three months, to keep this from totally overloading the NHS, to keep people from dying unnecessarily, I will stop doing these things. I will continue to run from the house, that is reasonable - but driving to ride steep trails clearly isn't, and neither is climbing. This is about so much more than an individual right now. Read books, do some online courses, do some DIY, plant some seeds...find other things to do.

Much though I detest Piers Morgan and references of 'oh but during the war', he made a valid point the other day; our relatives in the not too distant past were called to war to be killed, we're being asked to sit on our arses for a few weeks. It really isn't that big a sacrifice to make. You should also be grateful of the allowance for exercise; that isn't the case elsewhere.

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MonkeyPuzzle 09:50 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

As the long list of dead is read out at some point when this is all done, we'll make sure they include your climbing season on it to show how important it is. Deal?

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Blue Straggler 09:53 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

I climb. I don’t use the logbooks much. I’ve been out on rock this year, unlike a lot of people. I go to a bouldering wall several times a week, obviously that doesn’t go in the logbooks. That’s a major part of my social life. I don’t post much on the Rocktalk forum as I have nothing I want to say about climbing. 
I was out on my bike on Sunday and felt a bit “naughty” for it. 
I swim a couple of times a week including a dedicated freediving pool training session. 
In warmer weather I go open water freediving in UK quarries.

I’ve had an overseas trip to go freediving this year, and managed 42m depth (constant weight).

Freediving is another big part of my social life.

Are those credentials enough to earn me the right to pontificate, or is there not enough bombing around on MTB on woodland trails? 


Oh I also go to the cinema a lot (and probably more music concerts than most people) but obviously those are not actually possibilities now anyway so I have no choice but to cease those. Boo hoo for me  

Post edited at 10:11
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Tom V 09:53 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

I imagine  some keen pub goers get a bit upset when they hear non-drinkers demanding the closure of pubs. And make no mistake, some people's entire lives revolve around going to the pub.

Post edited at 09:54
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Blue Straggler 09:56 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> not climbing (or sport of choice) all of a sudden isn't some trivial thing for a lot of people and they are not going to take it lightly. 

I find that not contributing to the spread of a virus that’s caused a massive global pandemic, is not some trivial thing. 
Humans are an adaptable species. Are you able to adapt with the other humans? 

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Pyreneenemec 09:58 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

>.

> So I think you all need to bare in mind that not climbing (or sport of choice) all of a sudden isn't some trivial thing for a lot of people and they are not going to take it lightly. 

Sorry mate, but  just shut the fùck up. 

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Blue Straggler 10:08 Tue
In reply to BnB:

> Can you not see how selfish and juvenile you are coming across?

I was going to go with “blinkered and unimaginative” but yes, we can add selfish and juvenile to the list

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jkarran 10:47 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

I don't climb anymore other than casually, too much foot pain unfortunately. My social and sporting life revolves around the pub and my gliding club, l'm an instructor and I'll have to retrain as I won't get the hours in this year to revalidate. Both of those I stopped attending before they were banned because my family situation brought home the danger to me very clearly, if the hospitals are swamped my wife and child could die from a mildly complicated birth in the next few weeks. I'm going to use the exercise allowance we still have to get back into running with my them and the dog, try to keep us all sane and fit. Things will get back to normal eventually but for now let's pull together so it costs us fewer friends and family to get there. 

I know this is tougher on some than others, those who live alone, those in real mortal danger, people in abusive homes or living with addictions or mental health problems, people whose income isn't yet secure but in the end it's in all our interests we get this right. 

Good luck, jk

Post edited at 10:53
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Al Randall 10:49 Tue
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I took my dog for a 1 mile walk across the fields this morning, according to the rules that's my allocated allowance.  I did not see a single person.  If I were to take her out again this afternoon in the full expectation of again not seeing anyone am I being "blinkered and unimaginative" or "selfish and juvenile". Personally I think I would  just be using common sense but "rules is rules"

It's an academic question as my wife will take her this afternoon and in any case who's to know?

Al

Post edited at 10:55
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Neil Williams 11:05 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

The rules were only necessary because people didn't do as asked.  Often such rules stop us doing things we want to because others can't avoid being silly.

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Al Randall 11:08 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

> The rules were only necessary because people didn't do as asked.  Often such rules stop us doing things we want to because others can't avoid being silly.

That's a little patronising if you don't mind me saying so.   I'm sure it was unintentional but it does nothing to further the debate or indeed answer the question. Would you like to try again?

Post edited at 11:11
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Blue Straggler 11:16 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

Putting aside the “rules”, let’s clarify again for you just why Lord_ash2000 is being taken to task on this thread.

He is not talking about going out twice in the same day to walk a dog.

He is talking about how he should have more right than others to get in a car and make a non-essential journey to drive somewhere for a more pleasant exercise experience.

Sorry if it’s patronising to clarify. 

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Stuart William 11:18 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Are you for real? I don't think anyone is taking this lightly. But with what is going on, no, life shouldn't be feeling normal.

Sporting activities aside, we are being asked not to gather with friends, for any reason. Seeing more than one friend at a time and travelling to see said friends is a major part of most people's social lives. They've been asked to stop that. Seeing family who don't live with you, that has been stopped. Going to a cafe or a restaurant to meet with people. Same story. People are losing their jobs (although some protections are now in place for that). There have been people on here saying they are uncertain if they will be able to see their children. These are all things central to many people's lives, just as climbing might be to yours. Yours is not the only life affected.

I'll be missing my mum's 70th birthday this year. There is a reasonable chance that I won't see my grandparents again since they don't have long left but live 4 hours away. Any other visits to friends or family have been cancelled for the forseeable future. This is not "some trivial thing" for me either, but I will be following the advice.

None of this is trivial. Everyone's life, relationships, and work are being disrupted by this. Family, friends, sport, co-workers all make up a major part of people's lives and everyone is being asked to restrict what they do. Climbing is not special and you are not the only person being asked to make non-trivial changes to your life.

So if nothing else, please drop the 'it's easy for you to say...' narrative. A lot of people are making huge changes and sacrifices. Saying that they just don't understand how passionate you are about climbing is insensitive at best.

Post edited at 11:20
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Al Randall 11:24 Tue
In reply to Blue Straggler:

I do not need clarification.  I fully understand and I am complying.  I had hoped that my question would add further clarification.  I would't take anyone to task for expressing views and questioning issues.  I haven't read all of the thread but if that is all Lord_ash2000 is doing what's the problem? If on the other hand he is explicitly saying that he will be flouting the rules than I'm with you 100%

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Lord_ash2000 11:28 Tue
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

> >.

> Sorry mate, but  just shut the fùck up. 

Calm down will you all. I haven't seen another human outside my household since Saturday, I don't have, and am not spreading the virus in any way, even if we end up at 80% infection rate I'd rate my chances good of being in that 1 in 5 who never get it. 

All I was trying to say is, giving up climbing isn't nothing like some seemed to be making out.  It's not easy and not something I like the prospect of, does no one grasp that it has an impact on peoples lives more than others?

It's clear it's pointless even bringing the subject up on here any more being as any detraction from message (or a section of the UKC collective's hardline interpretation of it) just gets shouted down.  

It's amazing really how the impression I get on UKC differs so much from the real world, not just on this but many subjects. I don't think it's because UKC isn't representative in terms of its readership, but more it's very unrepresentative among those who post or those who like to pile in on one subject. I often end up taking a hammering on here but I think it's more because I'm the only one who can be arsed arguing the point, everyone else just knows when to keep quiet and do what they were going to do anyway. 

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gezebo 11:40 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

I feel for you tbh. I’m not sure you’ve come across as totally unreasonable and it’s very easy to be critical when maybe you don’t live in a really crap area with drug deals going on left, right and centre or having neighbours smoking weed 27/7 or listening to arguments night and day whilst stuck in a flat on your own. 
 

I’m sure if others were in the same place then they may take a different viewpoint. 

Good luck with it all. 
 

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Lord_ash2000 11:44 Tue
In reply to tjdodd:

> You never know, you might actually find other activities that you will continue and can be a balance with climbing longer term.

For me it's looking like it's going to have to be cycling, I cycle a bit but it's not my main sport obviously, however just seems the easier option, even if I can't see how it presents any more risk than bouldering alone but there we go.  

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In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Eh up Lord. 

> Calm down will you all. I haven't seen another human outside my household since Saturday, I don't have, and am not spreading the virus in any way, even if we end up at 80% infection rate I'd rate my chances good of being in that 1 in 5 who never get it. 

Transmission - it's the small percentages that will allow the virus to carry on spreading. 

> All I was trying to say is, giving up climbing isn't nothing like some seemed to be making out.  It's not easy and not something I like the prospect of, does no one grasp that it has an impact on peoples lives more than others?

To be fair you did try to call some of us out on this and you got some pretty clear answers that yep, we do get it. 

> It's clear it's pointless even bringing the subject up on here any more being as any detraction from message (or a section of the UKC collective's hardline interpretation of it) just gets shouted down.  

It's not our message Lord. On balance, everything the PM said last night is about staying at home. 

> It's amazing really how the impression I get on UKC differs so much from the real world, not just on this but many subjects. I don't think it's because UKC isn't representative in terms of its readership, but more it's very unrepresentative among those who post or those who like to pile in on one subject. I often end up taking a hammering on here but I think it's more because I'm the only one who can be arsed arguing the point, everyone else just knows when to keep quiet and do what they were going to do anyway. 

Yeah you do get a kicking, it's not easy to witness. I'm trying to carry you with me a bit even if you don't like what I'm saying. But this is massive on an existential level Lord. 

And I can't believe I'm about to say this, but why don't you just take your own advice 😉. 

Whatever you decide stay sane. 

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Blue Straggler 11:56 Tue
In reply to gezebo:

What has inspired people to jump on Lord_ash2000, is basically this - he wrote:
" Exercise has been deemed essential and you can travel for essential purposes so it seems like you can get away with it."

No, he has not said that he is doing this or even explicitly endorsing it, but just planting the words out there is pretty clearly seditious. 

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Al Randall 12:03 Tue
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> No, he has not said that he is doing this or even explicitly endorsing it, but just planting the words out there is pretty clearly seditious. 

FFS get a grip. It's a forum.  It's a tool for expressing views and opinions.  Even ones you don't agree with.  In the grand scheme of things and as a percentage of the world population it's a minuscule outlet.

Al

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Blue Straggler 12:13 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

I don't understand what you are getting het up about. You raised a question about whether what you are doing is the same as what Lord_ash2000 is being criticised for. I've attempted to answer you, politely. 
I have "got a grip", thank you. What's your issue? 

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Lord_ash2000 12:16 Tue
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> What has inspired people to jump on Lord_ash2000, is basically this - he wrote:

> " Exercise has been deemed essential and you can travel for essential purposes so it seems like you can get away with it."

> No, he has not said that he is doing this or even explicitly endorsing it, but just planting the words out there is pretty clearly seditious. 

I remember when climbers were considered to be the rebels sticking one to the system, to rules and living their own way etc. It seems that era is long over now. 

As it happens I haven't yet travelled to exercise since Saturday. To me, I can't see an issue provided you insure self isolation throughout from leaving the door to returning home (pretty easy where I live). But we've covered all that before so I'm not going into it again.

By far the most dangerous thing I'm going to do this week as far as catching coronavirus goes is the weekly shop which, (assuming there is any food left) I'll have to do by Thursday at the latest. There are no delivery slots available so I have little choice but to go into a building full of other people and touch the things they touch. In the grand scheme of things, all other possible infection opportunities or tiny risks of injury and NHS use are insignificant in comparison.   

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elsewhere 12:17 Tue
In reply to bouldery bits:

> He seems to be doing alright don't 'ee?

It's pretty unimpressive that they haven't sorted the laws for a lockdown yet, it's not as if it couldn't be anticipated as other countries implemented them weeks or months ago.

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Al Randall 12:21 Tue
In reply to Blue Straggler:

My issue is that you have lost your sense of perspective. Apologies for the use of FFS My other more serious issue is that by using quite strong, emotive, language and personalising issues some people will be silenced and not feel free to express their views. That is extremely dangerous for society and there seems to be an increasing amount of it around these days, especially on this forum.  IMO it's a form of bullying.

I always go to great lengths to frame my posts as questions but I still get attacked in a way that suggests people are interpreting my words as advocating a course of action.  That is what is happening here as far as I can tell.

Al

Post edited at 12:25
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Blue Straggler 12:24 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> I remember when climbers were considered to be the rebels sticking one to the system, to rules and living their own way etc. It seems that era is long over now. 

 

So in order to be a "proper" climber, we need to go against "the system" and go out to spread coronavirus deliberately? That is what you are implying. That'll show "the Man" won't it. 


More seriously, just have a think about how you are expressing yourself and how it looks. I think a lot of people are jumping on you because the way your comments are written, can potentially come across as a bit entitled, childish and brattish. 

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Neil Williams 12:24 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

> That's a little patronising if you don't mind me saying so.   I'm sure it was unintentional but it does nothing to further the debate or indeed answer the question. Would you like to try again?

No, it was wholly intentional.  If people hadn't crowded onto Snowdon, beaches and the likes last weekend, we may not have needed to lock down in this manner.  Had they not, people could have used sensible discretion.  However, as people failed to do that, it was necessary to impose a set of stricter rules which will mean some are unable to do things that might be OK in terms of effect on the disease, because the rules do not allow them, such as going out for a run in the middle of nowhere at 5am and midnight on the same day, for instance.

This will get stricter if people continue to look for workarounds.

Post edited at 12:25
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Blue Straggler 12:25 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

Did I use strong, emotive language? Sorry if I did. I don't remember it. You don't mean "seditious", do you? I thought that was accurate, especially considering Lord_ash2000's LATER post. 

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Neil Williams 12:26 Tue
In reply to elsewhere:

> It's pretty unimpressive that they haven't sorted the laws for a lockdown yet, it's not as if it couldn't be anticipated as other countries implemented them weeks or months ago.

Leaders in the UK don't have the same "executive decree" type option that many other countries do.  And I am very glad of that.

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Al Randall 12:32 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

Then you should have addressed your response to the thread/post and not to me as an individual.  Especially an individual who broadly agrees and is self isolating as per government advice. By responding to me directly you made it personal.  In retrospect can you not see the point I am trying to make?

Al

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Stuart William 12:35 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

My personal take on it is that food shopping is essential, so that risk has to be accepted. 

The risks from other things that are unnecessary can be mitigated, and each small risk avoided adds up to reduce, in some minor way, the strains on the NHS. For me an afternoon bouldering is a very minor infection risk, agreed. But there is a small but realistic risk of breaking an ankle or similar in a dodgy fall. I know a lot of people who have done this and I've had a fair few near misses in the past, it's not that uncommon. That would require me to seek medical care which was otherwise avoidable. It is highly unlikely to happen, but I can't see how I could justify the risk or how I would explain myself to the health professionals attending to me without feeling absolutely awful. So I won't be doing it. And yes, from my logbook you will be able to see that I haven't been that active for the last couple of years. That was due to a series of shoulder injuries which have recently healed fully so I was looking forward to the good weather.

I'm on the fence about where I can go for a walk personally. I went out last week in a quiet patch of woods nearby. Afterwards I realised that I had unthinkingly touched about 3 gates, and the door and seats of a bird hide. If I were carrying the virus and someone came along half an hour later it feels like there is a realistic risk of infection there. Made me think twice about how easy it is to spread the virus in situations that I thought were almost completely risk free.

I think there is a time and a place for "sticking one to the system", and in light of what is going on across the world right now this probably isn't it. If people don't play the game the rules and enforcement will just get more and more stringent and your opportunities will become even more limited. Keep yourself healthy, and do what you can to keep others healthy - and yes, some people live places where there are more pleasant opportunities for this so be thankful that you are in that group. But implicitly calling for rebellion against the rules hardly seems helpful to anyone.

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Blue Straggler 12:35 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

> Then you should have addressed your response to the thread/post and not to me as an individual.  Especially an individual who broadly agrees and is self isolating as per government advice. By responding to me directly you made it personal. 

And you're the one telling people to get a grip?!  

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Neil Williams 12:38 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

It was in reply to:

"If I were to take her out again this afternoon in the full expectation of again not seeing anyone am I being "blinkered and unimaginative" or "selfish and juvenile". Personally I think I would  just be using common sense but "rules is rules""

Which you posted.  The latter three words mean you are agreeing with me, so why be upset by it?

It was intended to be patronising towards people who might say "can I just"...NO, "can I quickly"...NO

Post edited at 12:39
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elsewhere 12:38 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Leaders in the UK don't have the same "executive decree" type option that many other countries do.  And I am very glad of that.

I know but why were they debating it in parliament yesterday and not two weeks ago? 

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Neil Williams 12:39 Tue
In reply to elsewhere:

> I know but why were they debating it in parliament yesterday and not two weeks ago? 

Good question, I don't know.

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Al Randall 12:45 Tue
In reply to Blue Straggler:

No I personalised it by telling you to get a grip, then apologised later for my use of language. I thought your use of the word seditious was emotive and unnecessary. I also think that a lot of the responses are not really arguing a case but rather using the forum to virtue signal.  This latter is to the thread and not aimed at you personally by the way.

Al

Post edited at 12:47
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Al Randall 12:51 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm not upset.  I was seeking peoples views on this specific scenario.  Apologies if that was not clear.

Al

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Neil Williams 12:53 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

Ah, sorry.

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Blue Straggler 12:53 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

No problem, we can peacefully disagree over "seditious". Have a good day!

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bouldery bits 12:53 Tue
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> Hello Lord. Good to have you back, genuinely. Because from what you've just said, you're deeply effected by this and I get you are venting.

> So in answer to your questions:

> I've never bothered with the logbook. My guidebooks are full of ticks and still counting. I'm sub 40mins for 10k (I'm 51). Too many mountain marathons to mention. Caving as well.

Momentarily, you sounded like my hero.

Then you said caving. 

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Pyreneenemec 13:02 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Telling someone to shut the f*ck up is certainly not my usual style, but you were insistant !

In the current situation, where medical workers risk their lives to save others (already 5 doctors dead here in France) respecting the rules on movement just isn't a choice. If this is still impossible for you, then just do what you want but don't shout about it on here.

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EdS 13:05 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Becuase for some people climbing is their life. In my case it's what I've done in one form or another 2 or 3 times a week almost every week since I was 11 years old. It's almost my whole social life, a significant part of my job and obviously my main sporting activity. Life, relationships, work etc fits around climbing not the other way around.

Quite frankly with an attitude like  - wearing my 2 hats:

1) if you have an accident why should I put myself at risk responded to the MR call out to drag your stupid arse back

2) and my work hat -- that sort of attitude is why as of this morning i'm authorized  to close businesses down and more powers likely to follow

zip it, grow up and stop being a dangerously, self obsessed prick

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Cragster 13:14 Tue
In reply to bouldery bits:

In reply to the original question.

Bozzer talks the talk and has the charisma alright but if you were to ask an epidemiologist or a member of NHS staff on the frontline in London I think they may not be as impressed.

The UK has barely done any testing compared to other countries.  We have barely any spare beds and basic protective equipment etc...

So now we are in a similar situation to Italy despite having weeks/months to prepare as well as possible.

We haven't even tested NHS staff or carers in a systematic way.  They have now put themselves and others at risk.

Two weeks ago they were saying that we needed herd immunity and ignoring WHO advice and warnings from other countries.

In what way have they done well?

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Al Randall 13:27 Tue
In reply to Cragster:

Should we be isolating cities or is that a step too far? Is it too late? Would it be effective?

Al

Post edited at 13:28
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Neil Williams 13:35 Tue
In reply to EdS:

Maybe he should pretend he's broken his leg, a not entirely unusual injury for a climber.  You'd be off climbing for *at least* 6 weeks then, probably a few months.

If that would cause anyone a major problem with regard to their life seeming to have no purpose, that perhaps means they need to consider if their balance is right generally.

Post edited at 13:36
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Neil Williams 13:36 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

I doubt it, it's all over the country.

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Al Randall 13:43 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

Is it one of the steps that the Government should have taken earlier? There are plenty of people saying the Government has not done enough but I can't help but think that if the Government had done that straightaway it would have a) limited the spread but b) caused outrage.

Al

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Jock 14:02 Tue
In reply to bouldery bits:

Is Johnson doing alright? Alright?

I think this puts it fairly well. https://dorseteye.com/i-see-you-boris-johnson-5/

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Neil Williams 14:05 Tue
In reply to Al Randall:

Possibly - the core of it seems to be in London, and last weekend probably spread it to places where it wasn't.

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jkarran 14:08 Tue
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> I remember when climbers were considered to be the rebels sticking one to the system, to rules and living their own way etc. It seems that era is long over now. 

When not 'sticking one to the system' means I might see my family again, maybe at least get to go bury them if I don't, that I stand a very good chance of meeting my daughter and her having a mother... why the f*ck would I be 'rebelious'? You come across a proper tool sometimes. 

> By far the most dangerous thing I'm going to do this week as far as catching coronavirus goes is the weekly shop which, (assuming there is any food left) I'll have to do by Thursday at the latest.

Yes shops a re a problem but food is necessary. If people see you out being your individualistic rebellious self while they're doing the harder thing, doing the right thing, what do you think they'll think of you and do you think you make it easier for them to keep making hard choices for all our good? Grow up. 

Jk

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Al Randall 14:10 Tue
In reply to Jock:

It's ironic how in America when Trump banned flights to China and then Europe he was branded as xenophobic by the left.  These days I keep finding myself adding these caveats: I'm not defending Trump

Al

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In reply to Al Randall:

> It's ironic how in America when Trump banned flights to China and then Europe he was branded as xenophobic by the left.  These days I keep finding myself adding these caveats: I'm not defending Trump

> Al

Did that not come about because he started calling it the Chinese virus?

(Definitely not attacking you over your not defending Trump!) 

Post edited at 14:30
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Al Randall 14:56 Tue
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> Did that not come about because he started calling it the Chinese virus?

What I heard was the response to cancelling flights to China by a Democrat.  Although his language may be unfortunate, it always is, is anyone seriously denying it didn't originate in China?  Asian flu is still known as Asian flu and Spanish flu is still known as Spanish flu even though the evidence suggests it was brought to Europe by American troops.  Would people be as offended if we started to call it American flu.  When this is over China will have a lot of explaining to do so whilst I'm not defending Trump I have no intention of defending China or at least the Chinese Government. They should not be let off the hook because of political correctness.

Al

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im off 15:06 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

My cycle rides are about 7 hours long.....100miles.....not sure if that's ok.

I'm guessing not. 50miles.....at 6am? Or stick to turbo trainer

Such concerns will be forgot in a week or 2 when apocalypse now occurs.

Oh....30mins is what's ok. Fine. Stick to the trainer. Happy to cooperate. Just need to know the effing rules😂.

Post edited at 15:14
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Neil Williams 15:22 Tue
In reply to im off:

"just need to know the effing rules"

Why?  Are you not capable of working out for yourself what the intention of the measures is, and how not to take the mick out of them?

Do you need a rule telling you how to put the kettle on and make a cup of tea?

Some people really make me wonder.

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In reply to Neil Williams:

> "just need to know the effing rules"

> Why?  Are you not capable of working out for yourself what the intention of the measures is, and how not to take the mick out of them?

> Do you need a rule telling you how to put the kettle on and make a cup of tea?

> Some people really make me wonder.

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2020-03-23/cyclist-27-dies-on-honister-pass/

Absolutely tragic. No one goes out to have an accident. 

Wonder indeed. 

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