/ Missing Munro Top

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Simon Caldwell - on 12 Feb 2019

There are 227 Munro Tops. But the tic,list only includes 226.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/set.php?id=26

Can anyone spot the missing one?!

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jsg2307 on 12 Feb 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Knight's Peak on Skye is on the list but was demoted a few years ago (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-24912972)

I think the missing two are Sgor Choinnich (929), near Sgor Gaibhre, and Carn na Caim South Top (915).

Ah that was a good distraction, now I should do some actual work.

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Simon Caldwell - on 12 Feb 2019
In reply to jsg2307:

Sgor Choinnich is there as "Sgor Gaibhre - Sgor Choinnich"

but not Carn na Caim South Top - is that the one that was added fairly recently?

So still possibly one to find....

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abbeywall - on 12 Feb 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I have been told the figure is 226 Munro Tops.  But Wikipedia, Munro Society, SMC website and hill bagging all say 227

Munro top  deletions from the tables in 1997

Knights Peak & Creag na Caillich            

Carn na Caim added           

Possible one in the mamores but not yet verified               

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Simon Caldwell - on 12 Feb 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

One trawl later, the hills missing from the UKH list are

Beinn a' Chroin East Top

Carn na Caim South Top

and as pointed out, the demoted Knight's Peak is wrongly included.

I've done all 3 of these anyway

So my total's up to 199 and I can resume planning...

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Calvi - on 12 Feb 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> There are 227 Munro Tops. But the tic,list only includes 226.

> Can anyone spot the missing one?!


Tic list ? Itching already.

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petestack - on 12 Feb 2019
In reply to abbeywall:

> Possible one in the mamores but not yet verified 

If that's what I think it is (bump in the ridge between Mullach nan Coirean and Stob Bàn), it will never be classified. It's not height but prominence/topliness.      

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Mark Bull - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to petestack:

For avoidance of doubt, it is the top at NN137656. The survey results here https://www.rhb.org.uk/surveys/C725.pdf recorded a height of 916.6m with a drop of 38.6m. That's plenty enough prominence to qualify as a Top - there are no other 3000ft+ summits in Scotland with more than a 30m drop that are not Munros/Munro Tops. 

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petestack - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Mark Bull:

OK, fair enough. I hadn't realised it had that kind of prominence.

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Dave Hewitt - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

All main Munros are Munro Tops too, so there are actually over 500 MTs - not that people tend to look at things in that way these days. I've got a feeling that someone in the SMC listing has their Tops completion year earlier than their Munros completion year, which implies a good effort in terms of legwork (given how few people - me included - visit all the tops) but a misunderstanding of the definition!

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Simon Caldwell - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Pedant!

I finished the main Munros in 2016, but despite collecting the Tops at the same time I still have a number of (mostly) outliers left to visit.

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Dave Hewitt - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> Pedant!

Maybe - but only in the sense that it's always been the case that Munros are also Tops and unless I've missed something the SMC haven't changed anything (although they should have picked up on that bloke who put his Tops completion before his Munros one). It's arguably all Robertson's fault - he changed the rules immediately to suit his own ends and allow himself to be the first finisher - Munro himself very much included subsidiary tops in his list but Robertson just skipped those (and arguably a couple of the main summits too, but that's another story).
 

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Simon Caldwell - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

OK, just for you, I've now done 481/509 Munro Tops - the planning continues...

;-)

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petestack - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> All main Munros are Munro Tops too, so there are actually over 500 MTs

I did 601 including deletions, so all that have ever been listed including a few now Corbetts. Think that all-time list might now be 602 with the addition of Carn na Caim South Top, but luckily I had that anyway, just as (with the Mamores in my back garden) I've almost certainly got the 'new' one discussed above, but will make darned sure I have next time I'm up by consciously leaving the path for that stretch!

> It's arguably all Robertson's fault - he changed the rules immediately to suit his own ends and allow himself to be the first finisher - Munro himself very much included subsidiary tops in his list

Which is why I didn't let myself finish one without the other. It's a bigger effort when you're criss-crossing or zig-zagging to pick them all up, and even more so including all the deletions (some of which richly deserved to be deleted!), but the only way for me if I was going to do it at all!

Post edited at 17:28
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Dave Hewitt - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> OK, just for you, I've now done 481/509 Munro Tops - the planning continues...

Good luck with the 28 - and don't leave it too long. My much-missed pal Ken Stewart ended six short with his Tops (but with two rounds of main summits). The stopper latterly for him was Carn Dearg SW on Ben Nevis - there was quite a lot of plotting and planning (also involving Iain Thow of this parish) about how best to tackle this with waning powers, given that even without going up the Ben the main-path option involves a lot of ascent, while the more direct route from further up Glen Nevis is rougher. Ken also had two twos to do up Affric way and the thing on Wyvis that should perhaps be a main Munro anyway.

Incidentally, I don't for a minute think that people who have "just" done the main Munros aren't Munroists - I'm with Robertson rather than Munro on that - but there's no doubt that main Munros are also Tops.

PS - Any thoughts on which is the most-often climbed subsidiary Top without going up a Munro? For a long time it surely must have been Sgurr Dearg on the Cuillin (overtopped by the In Pinn), but that's been off the list for a good while. Crow Craigies over east occasionally gets climbed without any of the neighbouring main summits. Or one of the lower Cairn Gorm things - Cairn Lochan or Lurcher's perhaps? Am Bodach on the Aonach Eagach is another possibility given how many people retreat without going on to Meall Dearg.

Post edited at 17:48
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Deleted bagger - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

I've got 14 deleted Munro Tops to go before I can claim to have stood on top of all the mountains that have ever been a Munro or Munro Top. It helps fill the time. ;-)

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Simon Caldwell - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> Any thoughts on which is the most-often climbed subsidiary Top without going up a Munro?

The northern top on Creise maybe? A few climbs and scrambles finish around there, and it's quite a trek to the main summit. Or the northern Carn Dearg on Ben Nevis for a similar reason.

Or something popular with non-walkers where you get to the Top before the main summit? I wonder how many people set off to walk up Lochnagar, get as far as Meikle Pap, and call it a day?

But my vote is for  Beinn Eighe - Sgurr nan Fhir Duibhe I think, the summit of a fine scrambly round in its own right without continuing to the main summit some way further west (especially in the days before the 2nd Munro was added).

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Iain Thow - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Hi Dave,

Most deleted tops are pretty minor and deserved to go, but I reckon there's quite a few tops that deserve full Munro status (the Affric Lapaich, Glas Leathad Beag on Wyvis, Sail Mhor on Beinn Eighe spring to mind).

Re tops climbed separately, Carn Dearg NW on the Ben must be a contender, as lots of climbs finish over it and lots of people don't go on to the main summit. Ditto Stob Coire nan Lochan on Bidean. Meall Odhar on Glas Maol must be climbed by bucketloads of skiers as one of the runs starts a few yards from its top, so I think I'd go for that.

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petestack - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Iain Thow:

> Ditto Stob Coire nan Lochan on Bidean.

That's one that had occured to me.

> Meall Odhar on Glas Maol must be climbed by bucketloads of skiers as one of the runs starts a few yards from its top, so I think I'd go for that.

But I'll defer to that!

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Dave Hewitt - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Iain Thow et al:

Good point - being just a walker rather than a climber or skier I'd not really thought of things in those terms. Although with Meall Odhar I wonder how many of the skiers go to the actual summit, even though it's very close to the run. Different mindset possibly. Re Simon's suggestion of Meikle Pap, might that have been more often the case in earlier times? I started my hillgoing in Aberdeen in the early 1980s (first Munro: Lochnagar!) and have memories of people deliberately just aiming for MP for a shorter walk and a great view. Dunno if that happens quite so much now.

Other things on Skye might be contenders too, on a smaller scale - people often do complicated meandering routes across the corries and spurs and I can't have been the only one to have gone up Sgurr Dubh na Da Bheinn but had second thoughts about Sgurr Dubh Mor - although that day I'd already been on Sgurr nan Eag, so that doesn't count in terms of this. The lower top on Bla Bheinn is another one - people sometimes get on the wrong spur lower down from the Slapin side then don't fancy the awkward step across the little summit ridge.

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Iain Thow - on 13 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

So many of the Cuillin summits are Munros that most of the meandering routes end up on one at some point during the day, even if it's not associated with the top in question (as in your Eag/Da Bheinn trip - and I've combined Sgumain and Eag, Sgumain and Mhic Coinnich, and Banachdich South with Ghreadaidh).

I agree about the skiers having a different mindset, but the top on Meall Odhar is so close that they're quite likely to climb it by accident! Cairn Lochan and Stob Coire an t-Sneachda must be contenders too, given how popular the climbs in the Northern Corries are and the summits being on the cliff edge.

Post edited at 21:23
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Trangia on 14 Feb 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

What is the definition of a "peak"? Must be difficult to define on a bumpy ridge line.

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Simon Caldwell - on 14 Feb 2019
In reply to Trangia:

For Corbetts, Grahams, Marilyns, etc it's defined by the amount of "drop" on each side. For Munros/Munro Tops there is no definition beyond whether it "feels" like a separate summit, hence most of the the repeated changes to the lists of the years.

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Trangia on 14 Feb 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Thanks - very confusing!

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petestack - on 14 Feb 2019
In reply to Trangia:

From a 2015 post on my blog (I'd have linked you straight to SMCJ if it was online):

> In SMCJ 2010, Robin Campbell writes that:

> 'It has become fashionable now to classify mountains purely in terms of summit height and net drop. […] However, Corbett aside, it has not been been our way.'

> And continues to argue in favour of drop-and-distance-based ‘separation’ methods as applied by Donald, (originally) Graham and (presumably) Munro. But Corbetts are Corbetts (whether based on the established 500ft drop or, as Campbell now believes Corbett intended, 450ft), so you have to tick those to be a Corbetteer. Likewise the Grahams (if ticking them) at their official 150m drop. But then I’m with Campbell in believing you can’t define worthy peaks by drop alone. Somewhere between the broad brush of those 500ft/450ft/150m drops and the 30m now accepted as defining their respective Tops you’ll find many attractive or interesting peaks that beg to be climbed and many less distinct ones that don’t.

Link to my piece if you want it:
http://www.petestack.com/blog/plotting-the-peaks.html

(Scroll past the maps, but I've quoted all that's really directly relevant here.)

With some further opinion from Robin Campbell here:
http://mappingmountains.blogspot.com/2015/05/guest-contributor-robin-n-campbell.html

> Finally, although I will not dwell on it here, I should state that it is my belief that the identification of hills as outstanding in some way should always be made by considering some function of distance and drop, as was done by Hugh Munro, Percy Donald, William Docharty and Fiona Graham, and not by drop alone – as has been done by Corbett and Alan Dawson, and by various tabulators of English and Welsh hills. The use of drop alone has led to absurdities such as the vast range south of Glen Lochsie and west of Glenshee – outstanding in every sense – being treated as a mere appendage of Glas Tulaichean, and to the fine outstanding mountains of Quinag and Sgurr Dhomhnuill being split into numerous hills, each with tiny ‘footprints’. The method of Munro is required, and should be insisted upon by all students of mountain form.

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Dave Hewitt - on 14 Feb 2019
In reply to petestack:

> From a 2015 post on my blog (I'd have linked you straight to SMCJ if it was online):

I'm very much with Pete and Robin on this, at least insofar as their puzzlement at the one-dimensional aspect, ie drop-only, of modern hill lists. I was involved in publishing some of these lists a couple of decades ago, but have increasingly found them not to my liking in terms of personal hillgoing habits and preferences, and it's strange when each subsequent list in recent years - Humps, Tumps and so on - has continued to simply plough the same furrow but with even less drop each time. What separates summits is complicated and multi-faceted and, as I've written elsewhere, largely boils down to time, of which both drop and distance (as per Percy Donald's work) are major components when it comes to getting from A to B on the ground.

There are any number of examples of this - Robin's "lost" Glen Shee summits as quoted by Pete are good cases in point, and on my home patch of the Ochils (Donald territory of course) there's another version of it where the natural and very well-balanced three-summit loop from Tillicoultry - The Law / Ben Cleuch / Ben Ever - is now seen by quite a lot of people as having just two baggable summits, with The Law not counting due to only 20m, rather than the requisite 30m, of drop. That's just silly, especially as the time taken by most walkers to do Cleuch-Ever and Cleuch-Law is about the same (usually 16 minutes in my case), given that the latter version has a bit more distance in it.

Quite why this has happened is hard to say - I lost touch with (and lost interest in) the nuances of the discussion years ago (too many pedants, to revive Simon's earlier point!), but it feels like a sort of cavalier/roundhead split with Robin and me being on the cavalier side of things but the roundheads having taken over the asylum, so to speak.

Incidentally, in terms of the earlier discussion, Meall Dearg on the north side of Liathach is another subsidiary Munro Top that often seems to be climbed without visiting a main Munro, given the awkward ground between it and Mullach an Rathain.

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Deleted bagger - on 15 Feb 2019
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

>Incidentally, in terms of the earlier discussion, Meall Dearg on the north side of Liathach is another subsidiary Munro Top that often seems to be climbed without visiting a main Munro, given the awkward ground between it and Mullach an Rathain.

You're not wrong there. I've done Meall Dearg 3 times. Once on my own and twice taking friends up it who want to join the hallowed ranks of Munro Top compleaters. That's about 1 in 10 Munroists. 

Picking off the Tops I'd missed was certainly entertaining. It included the Bastier Tooth and Knights Peak. The latter being removed from the list two weeks after compleation.

​​​

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Simon Caldwell - on 12:48 Mon
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

We visited Tom Dubh on Friday - evidence that Munro had a sense of humour?! Great place though, even though it felt more like the middle of a caldera than a "summit". 

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Simon Caldwell - on 12:55 Mon
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I see someone's updated the list to add the missing tops and remove Knight's Peak.

But whoever it was, you've got Beinn a' Chroin slightly wrong.

The west top is correct. But the "east top" is actually the main top, it's now marked as both Munro and Munro Top, which obviously can't be right! The actual East Top is further east at NN393186 http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=239365&Y=718533&A=Y&Z=115&ax=239395&ay=718606 - it used to be the main top until about 20 years ago when (presumably) a new survey moved the main summit to the 942 spot height.

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petestack - on 17:37 Mon
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> We visited Tom Dubh on Friday - evidence that Munro had a sense of humour?! Great place though, even though it felt more like the middle of a caldera than a "summit". 

Memorably described by Irvine Butterfield as 'the most meaningless 3000ft 'top' in all Britain'!

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Simon Caldwell - on 10:24 Tue
In reply to petestack:

He also said of Beinn Bhuidhe "Set in drab moorland, this isolated hill has little to commend it" but we still managed to have one of our best ever hill days on it.

He's got more of a point with Tom Dubh though!

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