UKH

25 metre mast planned for near Stool End farm - mickleden side of the band

Application reference 

7/2023/5530

You can view it at  

https://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/planning/applicationsanddecisions/planning-...

In reply to John Kelly:

Sacrilege. How do you oppose this?

If people can’t go away for a few nights with no phone signal, then they shouldn’t go there. There used to be a pay phone at the ODG. Is it still there?

In reply to John Kelly:

Thanks for posting this John.

As a resident, what are your thoughts/views? And do you think it will be a good/bad thing for the campsite??

I've worked in Langdale for about 15 years now and am fully accustomed to being without signal when in the valley base and I rather like it. Just a short walk up any of the hillsides (ie base of Raven crag/scout crag altitude) and signal returns and is generally fine above that level. There is now plenty of wifi in the valley too, so seems unnecessary to have more connectivity than there already is. Less really can be more.

In reply to Mark Eddy:

Emotionally I hanker for the times when it took days to hear news from a Himalayan summit and weather could catch you out in the Alps. In practice I use my phone.

Campsite - parents love it when their children are freed from the tyranny of the phone but lots of people need contact, elderly parents being a common problem.

Safety - marginal gain I would of thought.

Landscape - is a satellite version just around the corner?, clearly its not a welcome addition to landscape at same time it's a relatively small feature in the valley.

Won't help load insta at Whornyside force 😪

Cheers John 

In reply to John Kelly:

Everytime the question of mobile phone masts in remote areas comes up, satellites are mentioned as an alternative.   I'm not convinced they are.  The data supported by satellites will always be low and, more importantly, most visitors will not have access to a satellite phone.

In reply to Dave the Rave:

Wasn't functional a few weeks ago. I agree with what you say about visitors but I feel the decsion should be driven primarily by those who live and work there.

In reply to NBR:

It is National Park, it belongs to us all. Some people were born there by pure happen chance, to buy a property to live there would demand serious wealth and why other people live there, I can only guess. But IMHO as it is a National Park, and has been for over 70 years, I see no reason why the people who have the good fortune to live and work there should have a greater say in the issue.

I would say that the farmer at Wall End Farm (?) should be having a stern word said to them as it is an eyesore in the valley.

In reply to Godwin:

However he can't bank sentiment and a decent data connection is likely important to his business, your photos are secondary. His activities are the man made functions which preserve the industrial heritage, or landscape, everyone champions as 'natural' in most NPs. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

The landscape of a national park is a national resource for us all and this particular farm looks like a rubbish dump/ scrap yard. I do not know how well you know the area, but I have a sneaking suspicion a decent data connection is not of much importance to this person.

In reply to GrahamD:

That's changing.  The iPhone 14 and later have satellite capability as standard.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Surely the whole idea of these masts is so that all people have reception/connectivity and not just those that can afford phones costing upwards of at least £600.  

In reply to FactorXXX:

It's a feature of expensive phones now.  Like the whole idea of a smartphone did, it will likely be a feature of all of them within 10 years or so.

In reply to John Kelly:

If they make it wide enough it may help conceal the stool end scrapyard.

Langdale was a working valley long before folks drove hundreds of miles to enjoy the remoteness and beauty of a car park, 3 miles from an A road and shopping centre.

In reply to sbc23:

You forgot the 'natural beauty' of the massively expanded car parks, hotels, bars, campsite and the stone motorway up to the man made tarn (which is the only place most go).

In reply to ExiledScot:

All valid points, but Langdale is an access point, and a balance has to be struck, between facilitating access to the most people and protecting the landscape.

I would say that placing this mast were proposed is a step too far. I wonder if these things could not be camouflaged, maybe the mast made to look like a large boulder, and the actual antennae painted in stealth colours. I always wonder when I see Heysham Power station if it could not be painted in a less obtrusive colour.

The issue of the Fells being pretty much a desert due to sheep grazing is an interesting topic, and though connected perhaps slightly different to this one.

I still think that farm looks a dump and need sorting.

In reply to Godwin:

You seem to misunderstood the status of National Parks in the UK. They're not a theme park where the visitors pay to enter and expect to have their opinions catered to.

It's an area within which people live and work, and which gets minimal funding to deal with issues caused by mass tourism.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I suspect Starlink won't be accessible on a 1p Mobile PAYG account though.

In reply to Ridge:

The Environment Act 1995 describes the purpose of national parks: to "conserve and enhance the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage" -- so there is always a balance to be struck.

In reply to Ridge:

It is interesting how you chose to tell me i have misunderstood National Parks, then go on to frame the issue using the loaded worded of tourism versus working people and residents.

I suspect I understand the purpose of National Parks rather well, but shall read up, and return when I actually know what I am on about, and not just recycling my own perspective and biases 😉 

In reply to Godwin:

Do you think the various enterprises there will need connectivity for ordering stock, taking payments, paying staff, accommodation bookings, even accounting stuff with hmrc? A bar might be nicer for all if nobody's phones worked, but it'll be a pain for the business. Sadly even the basics of guests needing gps to find the hotel in their car. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

One wonders how the existing businesses manage at the moment. 

And gps does not require phone coverage. 

In reply to John Kelly:

Further to my flippant point above, I did spend 5 mins finding the application and had a look. It's not at stool end, it's on the northern flank of the band. There are some quite good documents showing the visual impact (appendix A,B,C). They're planning to put it in a hollow within the small plantation, below the fell wall. 

So, not great, but it's as concealed as it could be given it's presumably very useful location. 

Here's an extract. The mast is actually superimposed on this view, if you can find it.....

In reply to Neil Williams:

Iphones are eye-wateringly expensive. So even if the technology does filter down to phones that ordinary people want to carry around, it still doesn't address fundamental capacity issues with satellites.  Satellites are wide area overlay, they can't replace the macro and small area coverage cells.

In reply to Godwin:

I'm on your side in one respect that NPs were originally land designation for recreation, an escape for the masses from industrial cities like Manchester etc.. this is where it all now falls down, as they are a series of anomalies.

Most are industrial wasteland, deforestation, over grazing, mining, man made lakes and reservoirs, hydro etc..there is very little natural or of protected status (sssi) in them. But people, the media and many NP staff visualise them as a wilderness like yellowstone, where they place laws restricting residents and business who have no say over how NPs are really run, the big guys win every time, as we can't damage the precious NP habitat. The addition of land between of YDNP and LDNP benefitted who? Certainly not resident and existing business there. 

Plus, the vision of being a cheap place to enjoy the outdoors left decades ago, even hostels and camping isn't cheap and housing is snapped up for a bargain half million plus by wealthy city folk looking to offload their latest bonus. 

The whole principle and purpose of uk NPs needs a review. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I don't know, perhaps it's a struggle as I'm certain they haven't dug in fibre to there. 

No, only some mapping does.

In reply to ExiledScot:

I have not had time to fully research the subject, but already knew that the bodies such as The Clarion and Ramblers were part of a social struggle for access.

We had what we had in the crowded part of our isles, Scotland is a little different, but I am guessing in that landscape is formed by deforestation and agriculture

It can still be enjoyed on the cheap, if one joins a club and uses huts and camps, but many people are less social now and dislike the lack of privacy of huts, look at the gradual demise of the YHA.

This is what The Peak District says, and I assume applies to the ELD 

The law requires the Authority to carry out two 'statutory purposes'...

to conserve and enhance the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage of the area

to promote opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment of the parks' special qualities by the public.

While carrying out these purposes it also has a duty to seek to foster the economic and social well-being of the communities within the National Park.

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/about-the-national-park/npa

I would agree with the you that the National Parks need reviewing, in particular who is the community in the National Park, I suspect this is very different to 70 years ago. I wonder how many of the Community in Langdale, would have a job if it was not for tourism or government subsidies?

I am still against that mast unless they turn it into a Boulder Problem, and still think that farm needs tidying up, I actually wonder what the other farmers think of it as all the other farms are businesslike and tidy.

In reply to Godwin:

Why not go help said farmer, i bet he's doing 50, 60, 70.. hours a week for less than the average annual salary. Scrap doesn't fetch much and many farmers hang onto old kit just to cannibalise for parts in the future, when newer kit fails. Plus tips charge businesses even if you dump stuff that can be recycled and has value. Yes, i know he's taking that to another level, but it's his place, his choice. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Farming is not a job, for many it's a way of life, it's just what they do. Part of my family are farmers, I know the deal.

The it's his place his choice, goes neatly with the "get orf, my land" mantra. The farmer is merely the custodian, using the land for their business purposes, to make it unsightly like this farmer or the one at Ruskin View at Kirby Lonsdale is reprehensible.

Are you actually familiar with the farm I am referring to and know the state it's in.

In reply to ExiledScot:

Assuming it's on his land, a extra £xx,000 a year for 25years to host a mast and facilitate access is probably a great help. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

They do have connections and in some ways crap connections may help businesses.

Whilst staying at the NT site when wanting to check weather etc given a choice of walking up the hillside or popping to the pub to use the public wifi I may well have come down on the side of "well I better have a pint".

In reply to mondite:

True, but maintaining a booking website and payment system should be quick and easy. Businesses have moved beyond phone calls for reservations and cheques in the post. Tourist revenue greases the wheels of the local economy, the worst case tourists are those who drive from a city, car full of food and stay in their second home which only sees use a couple of weekends a month, but cost so much it was beyond the locals budget, but I digress. 

In reply to Godwin:

Wall End, yes, I'm not going to pass judgement on them as I don't know their personal circumstances, life's not always so clear cut. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Like this one?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/designated-landscapes-national-p...

In reply to ROFFER:

That's was ground breaking though, apparently most landscapes are the result of different types of farming and they have ageing populations. Probably cost a fortune to carry out, when they could have just asked anyone with a low grade gcse/gce in geography to carry the same research in 10mins. 

Apologies for creating any confusion above, I'd mixed up the farms.

Wall End is the scrap yard one by the road near the ODG at the bottom of the Blea tarn road. 

Stool End is at the base of the band (with the proposed mast). 

In reply to sbc23:

I remembered that the NT owned Wall End and wondered what they thought of this so I had a look. According to their response they are concerned but not directly opposed to the application. They want consideration of colour of the structure, design of the access track, maintenance of adjacent woodland and eventual removal.
https://planning.agileapplications.co.uk/c301e9a6-a309-4524-a9ff-1570531192...

(Not sure if that link will work btw)

In reply to ExiledScot:

Most seem to be able to work though. The ODG and new both are able to offer public wifi so cant be overly restricted. The ODG one seemed quick enough when I used it as well. For research purposes obviously

The NT site also seems to have a mostly working system (I say mostly since last time i was there it was down for half a day). Which might be where a phone back up comes in useful.

In reply to mondite:

I'm guessing ODG have satellite connection? Fibre on telephone poles? Anyone know? As their claim of the fastest WiFi in the valley is likely true. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Fibre is likely. Satellite very much less likely.

In reply to Alkis:

Exactly, but that would mean  everyone should have genuine high speed if fibre goes door to door. I can only imagine the meltdown if they dug fibre in all the way up the Dale. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Good question. Would have thought the satellite costs would be problematic for offering free wifi.  Normal phone lines can be pretty quick where you have low contention rates.

The NT site did look to have a satellite connection on the roof though.

In reply to ExiledScot:

OpenReach's FTTP to my house was pulled over the the telephone poles, in fact they used the copper to pull my fibre, I expect similar there. They also did the same to get superfast fibre to the village in the middle of nowhere my boss lives at, to provide the whole community with fast Internet.

In reply to Alkis:

Good temporary solution, I wish they'd just burrow conduit for it, weather proof the network, same with power cables. Instead it's always the cheapest route. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

That's a low bar though right? Can't say I ever found their WiFi very fast! 

In reply to Queen of the Traverse:

That's Odg's claim, fastest in the valley, that's why I wondered if everyone else doesn't have it then it's an easy win! 

In reply to Alkis:

Still on copper wire here. I no longer have a landline and on 4G for internet. Can't see fibre ever being adopted, even though we're about 1.5 miles from the nearest cabinet.

In reply to Ridge:

To be honest, I was hugely surprised when I found out they started offering it even where I live, let alone in villages etc. so you never know what might happen in the near future.

In reply to Ridge:

I suspect it will depend on copper prices. Over the telephone poles might turn a profit in some cases.

In reply to ExiledScot:

So the 25 metre mast is needed by the farmer?