UKH

Hi all,

Me and my mate are planning on hiking Ben Nevis next week. We are both experienced in many trips to Snowdonia, the Lakes etc but have almost no winter mountaineering experience. We have crampons and ice axes (which we've been briefed on how to use) and can both navigate in limited visibility and have sufficient clothing to keep us warm. We'll plan to hike up the most popular route from Fort William using a Cicerone guide book. We'll keep a solid eye on the Met Office weather forecast and the avalanche update. We plan to start the hike before first light to help with daylight hours and will be primarily using the OS 1:25000 map. Firstly, I guess what I mean to ask is have a missed anything or have I planned wrong? Secondly, we're not afraid to cancel our hike at any time or our trip altogether if conditions are bad since we understand the danger in our lack of experience and the fact that we haven't done the Ben before. The question is, where do we draw the line in terms of visibility/wind/temperature and bail?

Also, I hear that there are sketchy situations higher than 900m up with gullies and cliffs that may be snow covered. Do these show up on the OS 1:25000 map? If not, how do I know where they are? Thanks! Any advice is appreciated. 

Bot

Wrap up warm

Navigating off the summit of Ben Nevis in winter in poor visibility can be tricky.  Once upon a time you could buy a small navigation aid that showed the bearings to take and the "corridor" to follow to get to the top of the start of the Red Burn descent. In a worst case scenario this involves following a bearing and pacing the distances between direction changes.

Al

You may find this useful:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/navigating_on_and_off_ben_nev...

However, if you've never used crampons and ice-axe, and are having to ask such basic questions, I think your plan is questionable. It would be better to gain some experience of using crampons and ice-axes on less challenging terrain where the risks are lower. 

You said, "We have crampons and ice axes (which we've been briefed on how to use)."  Have you ever walked in crampons, and more importantly, have you ever done an ice axe arrest?  (See also Harry Jarvis' reply) If not, Ben Nevis is not a good place to have to do it for real without having practised!  As you're wise enough to be on here asking for advice, you might be best hiring an instructor to take you up and do some winter skills training on the way.  That way you have a safe day and learn some core stuff for next time.  HTH.

When walking on a bridleway and you hear the sound of hoofbeats, it probably isn't a zebra.

Maybe you could link up with this person so you can all be safe together, especially as you both joined the same day...

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/lifts+partners/hiking_ben_nevis_in_winter...

Oh no I didn't! 😃

Stay home.

Try it in summer first. The Ben is not the place for your first experience with an axe and crampons.

You'll be fine, go for it.

https://www.mwis.org.uk/forecasts/scottish/west-highlands/text

This is the weather forecast you want. Not looking great for next week.

Is it the limbs of walkers caught in MTB wheels hitting the ground repeatedly like a flail?

Is it?

I note you have not responded to any of the comments made in answer to you OP. Any particular reason?

Poor advice and potentially dangerous for someone with limited experience. In the light of the OP's comment, what makes you think it's good advice?

Do you think there is an OP?

Who knows?  But as, on the face of it, the OP appears genuine, it's irresponsible to guess otherwise because of the seriousness of the subject matter.

I think the fact that, over a week later, no response from the OP suggests they're a troll, a bot or plain rude.

Or lost on Ben Nevis.

Al

It's not necessarily poor advice given the *OP's* declared experience.

It is the same formula as all the other bot posts which start off with a similarly structured question on something mountaineering related to look genuine before going on to pedal whatever lies they are trying to push on the world. There have been a plethora of them and a check of the profile tends to make them quite obvious.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/old_age_affecting_adventure_act...

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/winter_climbing/corrour_-_ben_alder_loop_...

A couple of recent examples

Ok first what’s a bot   And second what’s the point ? If they are “Going on to pedal lies “ surely they need to come back replying with the lies 

Let me guess, your next post is going to be about how Covid isn't real and the vaccines contain mind-scanning chips?

Recently there have been quite a few posters/bots who make a new account, ask a question about hiking ben nevis or climbing stanage but it doesn't sound quite right, and then a day or so later they post threads about how the vaccine is sterilising people or covid was invented by the CIA to control your mind. The first question is an attempt at cover, to look like a real climber.

have gone through the post linked above about old age  the two replies from the bot op have no subliminal agendas that I can spot  unless it’s we are lesser than the op

sorry if I’m being thick 

Little doubt that the title Hiking on the Ben says something of the poster   

That's the point, they don't put their anti-vax or whatever messaging in that conversation. It is to make their account look more genuine when they do either start a nutjob thread or contribute nutjob replies to other threads. 

Got it 👍

The Ben alder chap has only posted on his own thread with acceptable responses. Don’t see anything unusual about it.

A couple of themes common to these 'is it a bot?' threads:

An extremely ambitious undertaking for a very first post on UKC

Little/no previous relevant experience to the very ambitious undertaking

Once you get your eye in you can just tell.

I am still struggling to understand why anyone would start a thread for which they have no real interest just so that they can worm their way into the forum with the intention of posting anti vax crap when they could join and go straight into Politics and post whatever crap they like? What's the point of the charade? As others have said I haven't seen anyone post like this, then come back later with crazy ideas/beliefs. It all seems rather pointless.

Concerning my own post (15:15 Sat) I still think it's irresponsible to reply to an appeal for advice with potentially dangerous advice, because you can't be 100% certain that they are a fraud/"bot" (whatever that is?) or similar, and if it is a genuine request for advice the consequences of such a flippant reply could prove fatal. I accept that the OP was odd, but there are some odd people out there who are still genuine and not necessarily malicious.

if you suspect a fraud then why bother to reply a all?

It's also worth remembering that people other than the OP will read the reply. And that replies will remain extant, and searchable.

Judging by the comments your op has attracted I would say you've been rumbled

I don't know whether this is a troll or a bot, or not.  On the one hand the OP hasn't responded to any of the replies, but neither has he tried to push a different agenda, and if he were to try I'm sure the mods would be onto him.

I do feel that when someone posts a request for advice such as this the response should be either to take it seriously or  else to ignore it.  Flippant or misleading replies could, if the poster is genuine, lead them into real danger.  There is also the possibility that it could be seen by someone else who is genuinely seeking advice.

There is a real problem (for me) about this notion of dangerous advice.  At its best, outdoor activity is an adventure relying on one's own judgement.  I don't think it's at all healthy to try to take the personal judgement out  of outdoor activities.   

Ever heard of playing the long game?

Are they so puddled that they'll always choose the 'flippant' advice? If so, then they're in the wrong game and will probably die at home trying to wire a plug to a shower head anyway.

The agenda pushing normally comes a few days or weeks later on other threads.  This first post is just to say "Hello human climbing enthusiasts, I am a human climbing enthusiast just like you." Sometimes a human does intervene to say they aren't a bot but the stuff they come outwith is usually a giveaway.

It wouldn't be surprising if someone from UKB was having a go at trolling here.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/ukc_christmas_trolling_competit...

What do you think of the guy on the gear forum asking about a footprint for his tent ... ?

The "footprint for discontinued tent" thread? I'm 90% sure they're human. It's far too nerdy a question for a bot trainer to use, and they've replied to the thread. Unless they're getting more nuanced, the bots often go for honeypot questions like "what should I know about going up Ben Nevis".

One thing occured to me though, should we actually be keeping quiet about all this? By pointing out all these bots are we just helping their trainers make them better?

There's another one (with a similar format of username) asking about crampons on the hiking forum. Joined on the same day as well.

It's a bit too soon to tell as they haven't had much time to not reply yet, but I'd say they could well be a bot. Not sure though. If these two are bots then they are getting a lot better. A year or so ago they would be asking "how can I climb Stanage thanks" and it was more obvious.

I gave them the benefit of the doubt. They are odd threads though. 

Hi guys. Sorry for being passive. I've been really busy but I did use the advice so thanks for that. Sorry to disappoint those who said I should stay home but I did Ben Nevis three times!🤙🤙since the weather was so good. We did Pony path, CMD arete and Ledge Route with four different wild camps at around 700m. It was one of the trips of my life so thanks again for all the constructive advice (if this is even read). Happy late Christmas!

Sarney

Are you 'avin a laugh?

That would be interesting to see, especially your descent routes and camp spots.

With all that being said, I don't want to mislead other ppl starting out in mountaineering like me. In fact, sadly there was a death in the Aonach Beag area during the same good weather window as me.🙏

We always descended via the pony path for safety. Camping at the halfway lake and neaf the CIC hut proved good moves as the avalanche risk was very low and they gave good head starts to many of our routes

Presumably you've got some nice photos to show us?

Are these posts generated automatically somehow? UKH/C seems a pretty safe obscure backwater. Why post here? Will the same post appear in other outdoor forums? Genuinely enquiring. 

I would but it says I need to be a UKC supporter . I swear I did go 😂

What routes were in condition? 

I'm not sure but a couple of bot/trolls may be talking about jackets on the mountaineering thread

Camping at the halfway lochan AND the CIC ? You did all those routes carrying camping gear ? That must have been hard going.

For us, CMD arete was in perfect condition. Ledge route was good although a bit damp low down. But we also came across climbers who did Castle Ridge, no3 gulley and some route I don't know near the North East buttress. I think in the weather that was present, most routes were on the cards for experienced mountaineers. 

Anyone can add photos to their UKC profile. Can't wait to see CMD in perfect conditions.

That's good, I heard nevermore had a few ascents  

We did have a slightly slower pace but since we only went for three days, stamina wasn't really an issue. But I don't recomend carrying full overnight gear like we did. If the conditions weren't so good it would've been borderline dangerous to be honest. 

Anyone got any other good recommendations around the area if I were to go back? 

Hi James, it was good to meet you last week. I was the bloke heading for Number 3 gully with my mate when you were heading for Ledge Route. We also did Castle Ridge the next day, which was bone dry. Impressed with you guys lugging camping gear around, good training! Don't forget to check out the Conville courses.

Curved Ridge and Aonach Eagach (in summer conditions - i.e. snow free) if you've not done them

This is weird. You must know that that's untrue. I for example, although I have given them immense indirect support for over two decades, have never been a 'UKC supporter' – because of one particular issue – but I've been able to upload dozens of pictures over the years with no problems at all.

Now, if you hadn't managed to take any decent photos, I'd understand it. But here you imply strongly that you did.

What's going on?

There appears to be one (long-registered) poster here that can confirm that James is actually a real person who was really in Scotland; given that, why does it matter? Who cares?

Again with the crap atmosphere. Come on you bunch of dull old men, find some festive spirit.

One cannot upload photos to the thread if one is not a paid-up Supporter.

I couldn't care a damn about any pictures, or what he did. I'm simply puzzled by him saying he would have put up pictures if he could, when there was actually nothing to stop him.

If that's the case I'm sorry, I'll admit that I was wrong. But I wasn't aware that I've ever paid them a bean. If I did it must have been about 2 decades ago. I'll have a look now to see.

Edit: OK, I've looked it up, and see that I am not a Supporter. Yet, as you will see, I've uploaded many pictures without any problems over many years. Perhaps they've recently changed the rules??

I joined this site today.

When I respond to anyone it says:

"Adding photos is only available to UKH supporters." with no option for me to upload

Maybe just let it go, my first post on this platform had some great responses, followed by a minority that make this place very unwelcoming to newcomers. It seems the same minority are accusing every newcomer as being a bot, or scammer or something.

Not a great use of their time, or very helpful for the forum. 

OK, sorry, I didn't realise it had all been changed. End of subject ...

... and a happy new year to you

The distinction is only being allowed to add photos to your posts on a thread if you are a supporter, rather than to your own photo gallery, which I think is still open to all registered users. I would guess both of the protagonists (photagonists!) were unaware of this.

Obviously that's not nice for a new user but to be fair to those suggesting it there were a string of really weird posts with similar themes by newly registered users.

Having followed this thread I do think it is sad that an enthusiastic newbie to this forum has been “welcomed” in such a way. With the prevalence of bots and fabricated accounts, I get why it has happened and as a rule I am not a fan of finger pointing. But is  a real shame.

He seems to be playing the prat. And a few of us 'old men' fell for it.

He's not the one being a prat.

You appear to be confused, Gordon. You can't post pictures directly into threads without being a Supporter. A new member might not realise that pictures can be uploaded to their profile.

Which is what Lankyman said, so I don't know why you're questioning him, when you appear to be addressing the OP...

I'd say you are the exception that broke the rule.

Ukc is generally full of educated, experienced, helpful people, who will happily help explain things to those new to the sport. In fact there is an expert in just about any profession on here, who will answer anything imaginable.

Opinions vary on many things and debate is endless, but without exception there aren't really any anti vaxers, anti anything.... ranting unproven nonsense here. In the last two years there have been many non mountaineer accounts created to try and preach to us, at first they were blatant, then they got wiser asking a random mountain question, before starting multiple covid related threads etc..

Ukc patience had, has, worn thin with fake accounts and i guess you bore the brunt of it. Apologies.

Where next for you, don't be lured into thinking all the best routes, mountain days, scrambles etc lie on the highest hills in the country. If anything gain some experience on slightly smaller hills in North Wales and the lakes. They can be a little more forgiving, less committing, nearer roads, more daylight, less avalanche risk (but not zero), when the odds turn against the inexperienced, 4000ft hills in Scottish winter can be brutal dangerous locations. 

Stay safe. 

This one (long-registered) poster hasn't posted on any subject since November 2018.

It could therefore be quite possible that this poster may be either hijacked or one that was left dormant until needed by a "bad actor".

Maybe this (long-registered) poster could post a recent photo of the walk in question.

Have I been parachuted into the middle of a mass episode of psychosis?

Hiya. Hope you had a good trip. I think sign ups for the Conville courses opened a couple days ago. Thanks for the pointers 👍

Maybe the long-registered poster, whose account and logbook look totally legit, doesn't have to prove a damn thing to you or anyone else.

What the hell is happening here?

Stop it.

Thanks I'll make sure to check them out!

In their profile they have listed routes for 2019, 2020... perhaps we just need to give the new poster the benefit of the doubt? 

Posting here shouldn't be like dragons den meets Alan sugar. 

Blimey, whilst I applaud the regular users who 'out' the bogus and dodgy accounts, I would be very put off looking inwards if I was a genuine  new user to this site and subjected to such suspicion and hostility.

Please folks, innocent until shown guilty.

Thanks guys. I don't mind being accused of being a bot. After all I did go silent for quite a while. Also, sorry for my  smug response yesterday which restarted discussion😅. Thanks for the recommended locations. I think I'll plan to go to Snowdonia next for a bit more scrambling experience. Overall, the forum has been very useful and entertaining if anything! I'm sure I'll be back sometime. Cheers

Just had a look out of curiosity. They used to do a Scottish Winter course and an Alpine course and it now looks like they do an Alpine Preparation course - which I think is the one applications are open for. Two days at Plas y Brenin - will be an awesome experience 

I'd say you guys are exactly the sort of people the courses are aimed at. Good luck!

Thanks Hoyes. Youre a legend 😎

Cheers for the pointer about how to display a photo by the way. I'm new and a bit unsure about how everything works on this site. I submitted a picture of CMD arete for those who are curious. It says it should appear in my gallery within a few hours if approved. It's of my mate looking back along the ridge. Hopefully u enjoy it cos I thought it was a stunner. 

Good piccy and a great looking day 🙂🙂🙂

You are obviously an AI enabled drone!

Must be the vaccine. 

You shouldn't have any problems with your GPS device on a Ben Nevis whiteout then.

Have you found the ‘find crag feature’ on here yet. It’s not just crags and the Snowdonia hills and ridges are on it. People post comments on their experience and you may find these useful. Try this:

Y Gribin (Grade-1)

The important thing to remember James is that we were all beginners once, even those that get up Everest. Come to think about it, some of those still are!

See also the 'forum activity' threads (which have actually descended onto another covid/fake accounts thread populated by a diminishing number of contributors but I digress....) 

YES