UKH

Hi All

I have a question reference via ferrata sets...

I am a strong, and reasonably fit guy that weighs 131KGs (around 135KG inc kit and water). As someone who does a fair amount of scrambling, trad and indoor climbing (auto belay is certified up to 150kg), and I have been invited on a via ferrata holiday in the Dolmites in 2 weeks.

I have my own harness, helmet etc, though I need a via ferrate set that will handle my weight. They all are certified to 120kg only inc kit.

Before the trolls start, I am not worried about my ability to climb in terms of skill and fitness! And it is next week, so no chance of me dropping the KGs by then!

My friend has a skylotec 3 I could borrow, though it is only certified up to 120kg.

Can anyone recommend a setup that will be safe? Maybe an older setup with rigit rope instead of absorbers?

Thanks

Mick

In reply to BigClimber:

Welcome to the club!

Ignore the rating, maybe avoid the stitched, screamer type. If I would bother I would have to ride my cyclocross bike naked (wheels certified to 100kg), etc...

CB (108 kg)

In reply to BigClimber:

Accept the fact that if you fall off your probably screwed anyway. I've done most of the vf in the French alps and don't know anyone who's taken a real dynamic fall onto a vf. Plenty of people rest on the tails, which will be fine. If you are nervous maybe take some extra slings and a small amount of rope. 

In reply to BigClimber:

I'm in a similar position and just ignored it (even back when they were all rated 100kg).  There is a risk of you getting a very hard catch if you take a particularly long fall, I suppose, but there isn't really a sensible way round it, VF kits all have the same standard rating.

If doing a difficult VF where you think you might fall, it might be sensible to take a rope and a few quickdraws etc up and pitch the difficult section(s), but that's sort of true anyway as a VF kit is the difference between being able to be rescued after a bad fall or being in a heap of flesh and bones at the bottom - the old "the leader doesn't fall" thing definitely still applies to VF, even if you're under the 120kg.  But also consider what a rope will add to your weight!

I wouldn't go for a "non-screamer" one, there are hardly any about and any you find may be quite old!

In reply to cb294:

Thanks for the comments so far. I have chance to borrow this. With the brake, it should do the job right? Albeit is only rated to 120kg

In reply to Neil Williams:

Thanks for the advice. Yes, the old ones look like back breakers!

Knowing climbing kit, certified to 120kg means they have probably tested it at much larger mass.

Its strange that 120kg is the limit, as I know a lot of taller builders that climb, and they are a lot heavier than 120kgs...

In reply to BigClimber:

The standard test mass is 80kg for dynamic ropes (single). Look on it it as you are less over the limit than normal!

An engineering compromise? If specified for 150kg it may be less suitable for people who are only 50kg and excessively heavy. 

In reply to elsewhere:

Thanks

In reply to BigClimber:

Interestingly, counterintuitively but hopefully reassuringly, you should have a softer catch if you are heavier than if you are lighter.

Adult VF kits are dangerous for children and lighter adults.

If you are heavier you should be fine, so long as the VF kit doesn't break. With a large enough fall / a large enough mass, eventually you'll get to the point where the VF kit has dissipated all the energy it can and you get to the end, with a hard stop (more likely, bad) and at some point a  breakage (very bad).

If you are too light there is a risk of the VF kit doesn't "activate", or only activates a very small amount, creating a high risk of far too large impact forces.

In reply to BigClimber:

I would expect there to be a large safety margin built in to the 120kg so you would likely be OK but only the manufacturer/regulator can certify that.

Consider something from the industrial sector? A variety of lanyards are available for working at height and traditionally builders are not small.

The thought of a vf fall is terrifying, take a rope if you think it might happen. 

In reply to Juan S:

That doesn’t sound right regarding being too light. The vf kit will activate at a certain kn of force and the force that will cause injury to the falling climber is likely similar irrespective of weight. If the kit hasn’t activated on a fairly large fall for a light climber, firstly it means that the peak force is low enough that it shouldn’t cause injury, secondly a very similar scenario could be achieved from a heavier climber falling less distance.

In reply to Juan S:

I also don’t buy this heavier climbers get a softer catch thing. In a dynamic rope example they will experience a higher peak force exerted through their harness for the same fall as compared to light climbers. In a screamer ripping scenario, they are more likely to reach the limit where the screamer rips again experiencing a higher peak force than a lighter climber that doesn’t reach this limit. Once the screamer is ripping there will be a series of jerks the heavier climber will experience more of these for the same fall so a similar peak force for longer.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Correct.

Wrong.

The force my back can withstand is MUCH higher than that of my wife who is half my weight.

In any case, you will likely get injured if you fall on a VF, at least on vertical sections, so don't. Taking a rope is sensible advice if you are in any way worried that a second may fall off a vertical section and drop, say, a couple of meters to a hard stop (and it is going to be hard even with a VF brake).

CB

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Yes, I realise this is counter-intuitive. There's some literature on this online if helpful. see for example this link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705812017249

It's to do with the much greater decelerations that would be experienced by lighter climbers. 

This is why there are children VF kits (usually rated to 40kg). Adult VF kits are dangerous for children and light adults.

The take home message whenever I've looked in detail at VF kits has always been 'don't fall', assumer you are soloing.

In reply to Juan S:

Yep.  It is the difference between being able to be helicoptered off to hospital with potentially several broken bones and being a blob of dead flesh and bone at the bottom.

In reply to several posters above:

F=ma

VF lanyards (and energy absorbing lanyards generally) are set to 'tear' at a certain force, so for a given force a smaller climber will experience a higher deceleration (and this can be problematic), a heavier climber will experience a lower deceleration but will need more capacity to absorb energy so they don't 'hit a brick wall' by running out of energy absorption in the lanyard.

With the current VF EN standard the max impact force for a 40 kg user must be 3,5 kN (ie approx 9g deceleration), and max impact force for 120kg user 6kN (dry lanyard) or 8 kN (wet lanyard) - ie approx 6g deceleration.

For the heavier user overall/ultimate strength isn't an issue, but absorption capacity is...

To the poster above who suggested looking at industrial energy absorbing lanyards - these are only designed to absorb the energy created in falls up to a fall factor 2 scenario (2 x lanyard length) - via ferrata construction typically goes up to 3m vertical between anchor points; so assuming a 1m lanyard length then this exposes the user to potential fall factor 5 in a worst case scenario... Way beyond the design of industrial fall arrest lanyards...

Sorry OP this doesn't answer your question !! Though my personal take would be that if you bear in mind that you are slightly pushing the limits of the design capacity and take care to not expose yourself to a big fall (clip the new cable asap, and if in doubt clip a resting lanyard onto a rung for the transition) then the risk is not unduly great.

In reply to BigClimber:

you could do it with a friend with a rope and belay vertical sections but sim climb traverse sections

In reply to Pinch'a'salt:

This. ^^^^

In reply to CurlyStevo:

This WAS a major issue with the old standard. It was the case that the sets were designed for an average adult male, as that was who was predominantly participating in VF. As the sport has progressed, younger and younger people are taking part and it is absolutely the case that they were in greater danger because the peak energy transmitted is far far higher. Think about the absorber as a spring. If you have a heavy weight the spring extends further and over a longer period of time. By comparison drop a small weight on the same spring and the mass decelerates extremely fast as there is a greater resistive force, energy transmission goes up. 

The standard was modified to cope with this and the result is that most manufacturers weakened the stitching for the youngsters but lengthened the sling so that it would still be effective for heavier users. Some have varied the stitching along the length to increase force as you pull through the sling as younger users wont use that section. The trouble with this is that as a heavy adult, if you  fully deploy the sling, you are falling further. IMO the issue is not so much that a 135kg mass will fully deploy the system - you would still reduce the impact to something which is pretty acceptable, but more that you will be travelling further and more likely to hit something on the way.

To the OP, maybe look at this system: https://www.skylotec.com/eu_en/sport/products/via-ferrata-sets/rider-3-0-r-...

It is pricey, but the locking system means your fall will be short as you don't travel down to the last bolt, so the system will activate more quickly and make it less likely for you to fully deploy the system, or if you do, you're less likely to hit something...

In reply to beardy mike:

Interesting, the original Skylotec was a ball-ache to use apparently.

In reply to BigClimber:

Do you know what grade VFs you'll be doing, and how hard do you climb? Just trying to guide you on the likelihood of you finding something you're likely to fall off. Obviously you can have a 'slip fall' on anything, but a 'running out of strength fall' depends on your climbing ability/fitness/grade of route.

In reply to elsewhere:

The standard test mass is 80kg for dynamic ropes (single).

The test mass is not the mass of the "standard" climber, the test mass is lower to compensate for the lack of "sqidgieness" of the human body; the two things should not be conflated.

In reply to BigClimber:

The official certification and quality control is such that you can rely on climbing equipment not to break. Pause for applause of manufacturers who deserve a standing ovation.

Breakage is impossible! That's not quite true, but in 99.999999% of falls there may be death, injury, no harm done (mostly), user error, gear popping etc but no breakage of rope, harness, slings, cams & wires. Gear breakage is so rare that we hear about it on UKC even if they take place on the other side of the world.

A proportion of those falls will be by you. And people weighing more. But gear breakage remains wonderfully rare despite heavy climbers, misuse and some racks that are 30+ years old.

Gear breakage is negligible factor compared to everything else that can go wrong.

I reckon taller (more whiplash?) & heavier (more energy in fall) climbers are more likely to be injured but they will not break any climbing gear.

Has anybody on UKC ever broken a bit of climbing gear (rope, harness & lead climbing rated protection) and how?

Has any MRT or accident report said caused by failure of a bit of climbing gear?

PS 99.999999% of statistics on the internet are made up

In reply to BigClimber:

Have you thought about buying a Skylotec Rider 3? Pricey, but should (almost) eliminate the risk of a big fall.

In reply to elsewhere:

Yes, people do break gear, and misuse is often the cause, for example hook nosed carabiners, or as someone said the other day, being surprised a 2kN wire snapped when that was their only gear. You can break pretty much anything if you try hard enough and complacency and not knowing the danger you are putting yourself in on a VF is rife - I see it every bloody time I go on one. Whether thats daddy taking his 30kg 8 year old up a VF on his old fluffed up frictional VF set with no rope, through to both ends of certain types of frictional devices clipped into the cable when that effectively produced a fixed rope lanyard, through to 3 people being on the same (hard) section 4 metres off the floor so they can all pile drive the 70 year old granny who is at the bottom of the stack into the floor. Accidents in VF happen. LOTS. Infact its one of the worst areas of the sport because any tom dick or harry can go to a rental shop and play at being a mountaineer for the price of 5 euro a day. VF is NOT safe, it's a calculated risk and people need to pay attention to mitigating those risks. I think especially climbers are blasé about those risks because the standard is often well below what they are capable of and they don't account for the factors out of their control which could lead to their demise. I love VF, just not when I'm around other people...

In reply to elsewhere:

This was being discussed just the other day! https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/gear/frayed_wire_strength-748312

In reply to beardy mike:

My read of the skylotec system is this really requires nice, clean, modern via ferrate cables and fixings. 

Lots of the cables I've used in the Dolomites don't fall into that category with frayed, rusty cables of varying diameters running over the rocks in an irregular way with tight bends and fixed to less than ideal gear.  I recall things like ladders, stemple sections with no cables or solid hand bars being quite common.

While the more "sporting" routes in well maintained areas look suitable for this skylotec thing I'd think you'd be better off with a more traditional two carabiner system for the more mountaineeringy routes in the Dolomites.

Maybe there has been a wholesale re-equipping of the Dolomites I'm not aware of but I'd kind of miss the wonky, rusty, wobbly, ladders held on by twisted coathanger wires...

As for being heavy: go for the "don't fall" ethic.  You'd be a complete tit to ever consider falling on VF in the way you might take falls sport climbing regardless of your weight.  The VF kit is absolutely last resort safety equipment (except for resting on and then you'd be better off with a shorter lanyard/sling).

If you're not confident on a route take a rope (take slings + karabiners for runners, it's often hard to get a regular karabiner over the fixed gear and the slings do the job for you).  It helps to be equipped to use direct belays (use a reverso or equivalent) because this makes belaying from the fixed gear much easier. For this I usually use a short 1/2 rope (30m) for lightness.  Most difficult sections are short enough. However, if you really anticipate using a rope you should probably reconsider the route choice, especially if it will be busy.

In reply to gravy:

Thats a fair comment. You can use an extra biner in it if you need to to effectively convert it into a standard set. Was just an idea for the OP. IMO he will be fine with a standard set anyway...

In reply to BigClimber:

I have a related question. I'm heading to the Dolomites for some via ferrata shortly. I have a Petzl "Scorpio Vertigo" VF kit which I bought in 2007 or 2008 but which is hardly used (and since kept in darkness etc.) and certainly never fallen on. It looks absolutely "as new". It's certified to conform to CE 0082 and EN958.

It's of the "screamer" design, but it has no stitching  between the folded tape in the screamer section. It's just got a stitched nylon sheath around the screamer and a rather insubstantial clear plastic band around the folds of tape inside - with a notice attached "do not cut". 

Has anyone seen or used one of this type? I can, and will, ask Petzl or their agents for a view of course, but the answer I'm likely to get will relate to it's having exceeded the manufacturer's recommended life.

Many thanks

Martin

PS. I'm 66.5kg

In reply to beardy mike:

2kN is useful for lead climbing (because it probably will not break) but not rated for lead climbing (and they do sometimes break).

It is possible to break stuff, but gear breakage remains wonderfully rare despite heavy climbers, misuse and some racks that are 30+ years old.

Sounds like VF gear breakage is negligible factor compared to everything else that can go wrong.

In reply to elsewhere: I know 2kN is not intended for leading - that doesn't stop people using them like they are and hoping for the best. My point is that yes, whilst it is rare for gear to break, if you start with that attitude and use it as a general premise, that gear doesn't break, you're going to come unstuck at some point. Falls are hard on kit and personally I would say we should be doing everything we can to stay within the limits of the gear and to encourage others to do the same (on a public forum read by thousands of people). The problem arising from the OP is that there is a misunderstanding of the rating - as Jim points out, the ratings are for a solid body, not a squishy one, and it's not saying that no one over or under that weight can use one safely. But they should expect a harsher impact than would normally be the case. Yes VF gear breakage is rare, my hope by making some of the posts I do about it is that people get a better understanding of the risks they are taking and how those risks affect the gear and vice versa.

In reply to Martin Hore:

Are you sure it's not simply stitched at one end of the folded bits? Would be interesting to see it.  PS. check for recalls as I know there have been some on VF sets - maybe they forgot to stitch it......

That's exactly what you'll get for legal and business reasons. If they said you'd be fine to use it that blows their 'use until' date mechanism out of the water.  You could read the recent 'old rope' thread from 3-4 weeks ago to formulate your views.

In reply to Toerag:

Many thanks

Petzl responded with a very helpful reply. I was able to provide the serial number from which they confirmed that it was manufactured in 2013, later than I thought, with a 10 year maximum recommended life for the textile components. They also sent me the specific PPE inspection criteria for the product. From this, it does appear possible that my item is missing some crucial stitching which I shall definitely follow up with them. There have been no product recalls for this item.

Martin

In reply to BigClimber:

I will likely get shot for saying this.

All the above makes me question the benefit of using gear. Awful landing on shit equipment coupled with an error trap of process every few m clipping and unclipping. I would be considering going solo with a short rope and a few slings if I thought it would get challenging.

Mostly, I tend to avoid vf. 

In reply to Martin Hore:

With that version of the scorpio the 'tear-out' stitching is not visible, unless it has started to tear in which case blue threads will be visible. You can see these (just) if you look at the point where the two sections of tape meet (at the bottom of the energy absorber 'pack', between the two connection points).

In reply to beardy mike:

Thanks again to all of the posters.

I now have in my posetion the Skylotec 3 that you referenced on loan for the trip. I have also taken the council on the rope for the trickier sections with potential long falls.

My first post, and I must say, I am delighted to the consideration of the responses.

Thanks!

In reply to Pinch'a'salt:

Many thanks for that advice. I'll need to look quite carefully for the stitching I think to be fully re-assured, but it's good to know that my first impression was probably a false alarm.

Thanks again

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

I have a 2012-ish Scorpio down in the garage - can dig it out and send a couple of pics of what the insides ‘should’ look like if that is any help. 

In reply to Pinch'a'salt:

Many thanks again. I've taken a closer look. What I thought was a single tape is in fact two tapes sewn together with the blue "ripping" thread. I can see how it works now. Many thanks for helping me out with this - much appreciated. 

Martin