UKH

Having a look around for some new bit of kit as always and came across this brand Kailas who I've never heard of but it looks cool and judging purely by the eyewatering prices it should be some good stuff...however from a little digging it is a Chinese brand and on a lot of the hardware descriptions do not quote any of the standards they are developed and tested to which to me screams run...

Basically looking to see if anyone has any first hand experience with them?

I have their climbing trousers and (city) packbag. Seem Just fine.

We bought a daypack from them a couple of years ago in Kaly - it has been excellent tbh - maybe a few too many pockets, but well made and comfy,

Chris

Are they making unrated climbing safety equipment or clothing and bags? If the former, run. If the latter, I see no real issue.

On a brief look at their site, load bearing equipment appears to have appropriate UIAA and CE ratings. Unless you’re suggesting their lying on their site?

I haven't come across them before but the notified body that the CE mark for one of their carabiniers refers to is Dolomiticert who seem to do some climbing related stuff.

https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/single-market-compliance-space/#/notified-bodi...

If you feel really unsure you could ask them for a declaration of conformity on the grounds that you can't find much information about them in the UK.

I've got a kailas clip up II, sport climbing clipstick. Good bit of kit, no issues with quality. 

I was looking at their ice tools - which quote no certifications. Some other bits of kit have certifications yes but not the ones I was looking at…

Good point. Thank you - I’ll drop them an email!

The aesthetic design of the tools all seems a bit familiar, pretty sure I was accused of plagiarism at school once over something that looked less like the sources I used and referenced!

Didn't they make Totem basics for a while?

I climb on their Entheos II axes and have a couple of their Swift ice screws. Some of the nicest looking and highest quality winter kit I have played with!

I've been using their quick draws for 8 years. They've been great. 

But as always, people like to combine "I haven't heard of it" and "made it china" (isn't everything) with terrible quality.

Yeah, it was the aesthetic on them that pulled me in! They look good but I just can't find any sort of certification for them - did they come with any paper bumf with them?

They did, but I didn't pay too much attention to it. You could get in touch with VertiCall in Canada and see if they can confirm as they state on their website that they are T-rated... But I don't think there was any mention of a UIAA certification in the paperwork, nor is there a T etched on the shaft. Pretty sure they meet EN 13089 though as all their other climbing gear is rated to that at least.

If its the aesthetic you like most it may be worth waiting for the supposed new DMM axe to pop up.

You do realise how the Chinese system works, right? 

Don't say that, I was expecting it but there's already been one comment essentially referring to my bigotry for my mention of China...

It's not bigoted at all to say China operates in a IP free, patent free world. I have friends who've worked for years there, it's a totally different environment and actually fosters much quicker product development cycles - you just can't horde the value of an invention.

Yes, it's less fair when it comes to the potential value extraction of the inventor, but it's potentially better for overall progress (depending on what metrics you want to use to rank success).

I personally think all of our patent battles mainly just frustrate development and siphon of capital to lawyers... so I'm not convince either the west, or the east, has yet to find the ideal balance....

I do, but this is a particularly brazen example!

I’ve used Kailas gear for quite a while, without worrying- clothing is well cut and fits a European body rather than SE Asian, my friends use their climbing gear which is CE rated, as mentioned earlier it is distributed in the US/ Canada by VertiCall. Their ice axes are patented so while appearing similar to other brands must be sufficiently different. It’s just a shame that in Malaysia their gear is expensive, to the extent that it’s cheaper buying their gear abroad and bringing it in and pay the tax. Also because the demand for specific gear is so low,  that bring in, try on and see if it fits doesn’t work here- it’s bring in and buy, which means buying boots is very high risk

I’ve used Kailas gear for quite a while, without worrying- clothing is well cut and fits a European body rather than SE Asian, my friends use their climbing gear which is CE rated, as mentioned earlier it is distributed in the US/ Canada by VertiCall. Their ice axes are patented so while appearing similar to other brands must be sufficiently different. It’s just a shame that in Malaysia their gear is expensive, to the extent that it’s cheaper buying their gear abroad and bringing it in and pay the tax. Also because the demand for specific gear is so low,  that bring in, try on and see if it fits doesn’t work here- it’s bring in and buy, which means buying boots is very high risk

I’ve used Kailas gear for quite a while, without worrying- clothing is well cut and fits a European body rather than SE Asian, my friends use their climbing gear which is CE rated, as mentioned earlier it is distributed in the US/ Canada by VertiCall. Their ice axes are patented so while appearing similar to other brands must be sufficiently different. It’s just a shame that in Malaysia their gear is expensive, to the extent that it’s cheaper buying their gear abroad and bringing it in and pay the tax. Also because the demand for specific gear is so low,  that bring in, try on and see if it fits doesn’t work here- it’s bring in and buy, which means buying boots is very high risk

I’ve used Kailas gear for quite a while, without worrying- clothing is well cut and fits a European body rather than SE Asian, my friends use their climbing gear which is CE rated, as mentioned earlier it is distributed in the US/ Canada by VertiCall. Their ice axes are patented so while appearing similar to other brands must be sufficiently different. It’s just a shame that in Malaysia their gear is expensive, to the extent that it’s cheaper buying their gear abroad and bringing it in and pay the tax. Also because the demand for specific gear is so low,  that bring in, try on and see if it fits doesn’t work here- it’s bring in and buy, which means buying boots is very high risk

Yeah yeah, we heard you the first time

Interesting you mention the patent - woud be interesting to know which aspect has been patented. Unfortunately the patent number supplied doesn't lead anywhere except to product spec sheets on various websites.

I wonder if the "patent" is as valid as most "CE" stamps which just means...."Chinese Export"

Are the prices for the pair or a single axe? Bloody expensive if they are singles

You do remember the flak that DMM got on here when they copied/not Camalots for their Dragons and Nomics for their (whatever) tool?

Kailas is a huge brand now, who seemed to get their start supplying the (then) booming number of Chinese clients to the 8000m peaks, and the Sherpa companies guiding them. Lots of Kailas gear and down suits in 8000m summit photos.

I'm tall and lean and found that their clothing doesn't fit me, but it looks fine and they have a range of colours and variations that should shame most 'western' brands. I don't mind though, because it seems to have got expensive beyond its quality. OVMV.

Yup £382 an end! I've stuck with the less premium end of the market...ie Petzl...

The point of the patent system is to share knowledge, and foster innovation; that's why patents are published.

The intention is that people should cross-licence IP from the patent holder. The trouble is, most patent holders seem try to use their patents to deter competitors, rather than come to an equitable licence agreement.

That's a bit like saying "the point in issuing shares is to raise capital for a company and the shareholder then has a say in the running of the company and gets dividends". While still true, it's a small % of what shares are now used for in practice...

I've no issue in that being the original use (don't know much about the early days/history/reason for Patents in the early days, but now it seems to mainly by used for protecting a market leading position, or trying to extract exorbitant fees if proven to be infringed.)

That's what I said...

The protection provided by patent rights was the 'carrot' to encourage publication of what we would now call IP.

'Patent trolls' could opt for equitable licence fees. But they seem to go for the punitive approach.

I think the equitable approach would be better than the Chinese blatant theft approach.