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I've had some debate lately with my friends about the best way to ascend/descend the Aiguille du Midi arete in terms of rope technique. What are your thoughts?
My take is this:
1) If you have a great deal of experience in short roping technique, you may take exactly one other inexperienced person, attached to a short rope up/down the arete. (This assumes you have practiced this particular technique including catching practice falls.)
2) If not short-roping as in above, all parties must have adequate experience on exposed rides. All should descend/ascend UNROPED, using personal ice axes for protection.
3) Inexperienced people should not be on the arete unless being "guided" as in case one above.
4) Ropes should not be used unless under case one above.
Rationale: There is no protection that can be clipped on the arete, thus the only fall protection if one person slips would be self arrest by ice axe (team arrest). The slope is far greater than what can reasonbly be held by this technique, that is, the danger of pulling off the whole team outweighs the chance of stopping one person's fall.
The other idea - jumping off the opposite side of the arete - seems appealing, but in the areas of greatest danger, both people are climbing actually down the face itself. So there seems no way to "protect" in this way in the very section that needs the most protection.
Additionally, the arete is typically extremely crowded. Using a rope of even 10m would inevitably lead to people passing you. Then you have a rope wrapping around somebody else, yanking them off the mountain as well. The "human factors" of this arete, then, seems to preclude rope use in this way.
My take is this:
1) If you have a great deal of experience in short roping technique, you may take exactly one other inexperienced person, attached to a short rope up/down the arete. (This assumes you have practiced this particular technique including catching practice falls.)
2) If not short-roping as in above, all parties must have adequate experience on exposed rides. All should descend/ascend UNROPED, using personal ice axes for protection.
3) Inexperienced people should not be on the arete unless being "guided" as in case one above.
4) Ropes should not be used unless under case one above.
Rationale: There is no protection that can be clipped on the arete, thus the only fall protection if one person slips would be self arrest by ice axe (team arrest). The slope is far greater than what can reasonbly be held by this technique, that is, the danger of pulling off the whole team outweighs the chance of stopping one person's fall.
The other idea - jumping off the opposite side of the arete - seems appealing, but in the areas of greatest danger, both people are climbing actually down the face itself. So there seems no way to "protect" in this way in the very section that needs the most protection.
Additionally, the arete is typically extremely crowded. Using a rope of even 10m would inevitably lead to people passing you. Then you have a rope wrapping around somebody else, yanking them off the mountain as well. The "human factors" of this arete, then, seems to preclude rope use in this way.
In reply to John Blab: Intesting post - Ive always been with competent mates and we havent roped - however if you get any acceleration up on the face - you aint gonna stop.
A competent guide, short roping clients up or down should alkways have a tensioned rope which theoretically would stop a minor slip or stumble from becoming a fall anyway.
Whenever Ive been on it it is always like a staircase with big steps anyway.
A competent guide, short roping clients up or down should alkways have a tensioned rope which theoretically would stop a minor slip or stumble from becoming a fall anyway.
Whenever Ive been on it it is always like a staircase with big steps anyway.
In reply to John Blab:This is an interesting topic, I personnaly solo'd down last time I was there and felt safer for it. I have roped down in the past but when I was inexperienced and I think we were at greater risk because of this. I would solo in the future.
In reply to John Blab: I can't remember if we roped up when we first went down it or not. Not quite sure why you say only two people on a rope (unless you mean only one inexperienced person with potentially more thna one experienced person).
Certainly by the end of our two weeks in Cham we had decided it was far safer not roping up, plus there was little need as the rut was so deep.
Certainly by the end of our two weeks in Cham we had decided it was far safer not roping up, plus there was little need as the rut was so deep.
In reply to John Blab:
Had to take my girlfriend down the arête for the 1st time this year, she was very inexperienced and it was a big worry for her and me
The worst part as you say is where the ridge turns left and you are both facing down the slope, I kept her rope very tight and examined the possibility of me jumping to the right if she slipped and went down this bit braced for this, I thought that in extremis it would save us if the worst happened but you would still end up pretty banged about but still alive if it happened at the very top of the left bit
What do they do with all the skiers in winter ?
Had to take my girlfriend down the arête for the 1st time this year, she was very inexperienced and it was a big worry for her and me
The worst part as you say is where the ridge turns left and you are both facing down the slope, I kept her rope very tight and examined the possibility of me jumping to the right if she slipped and went down this bit braced for this, I thought that in extremis it would save us if the worst happened but you would still end up pretty banged about but still alive if it happened at the very top of the left bit
What do they do with all the skiers in winter ?
In reply to John Blab:
Going the other way late in the day with balling up crampons 40 years ago we were roped up, and stopped numerous slips due to soggy snow going away from us. On good snow it would be a lot easier.
Trough? pristine snow mate.;-0
Going the other way late in the day with balling up crampons 40 years ago we were roped up, and stopped numerous slips due to soggy snow going away from us. On good snow it would be a lot easier.
Trough? pristine snow mate.;-0
In reply to John Blab:
They put a fixed rope type handrail affair there for the ski crowds in winter.
They put a fixed rope type handrail affair there for the ski crowds in winter.
In reply to John Blab:
Very topical, I did it early on Saturday (and last Sunday too.)
We did it as a roped party of four. In hindsight, any single fall would have most likely meant we'd all have gone over. But the rope has a psychological effect; it feels safer (even though that's not rational) so people are less nervous and likely to slip or trip.
If I do it again though, I'll solo it.
Very topical, I did it early on Saturday (and last Sunday too.)
We did it as a roped party of four. In hindsight, any single fall would have most likely meant we'd all have gone over. But the rope has a psychological effect; it feels safer (even though that's not rational) so people are less nervous and likely to slip or trip.
If I do it again though, I'll solo it.
In reply to John Blab:
Bollocks
> 3) Inexperienced people should not be on the arete unless being "guided" as in case one above.
>
>
Bollocks
In reply to Removed User:
They'd certainly need some of them to get down there if they're inexperienced!!
They'd certainly need some of them to get down there if they're inexperienced!!
In reply to John Blab:
First trip to the Alps my mate tripped over and went over the Chamonix side of the Arete - I actually found it pretty easy to stop him (though did sh*t myself) as we kept the rope tight.
First trip to the Alps my mate tripped over and went over the Chamonix side of the Arete - I actually found it pretty easy to stop him (though did sh*t myself) as we kept the rope tight.
In reply to Removed User: Care to explain? Have you ever even been there?
In reply to dougair: I am with Bobt - the arete is hardly the most fearsome place in the world, though it can be bad if it is very busy (especially if you are going the other way to the masses). As an alpine newby - the arete was the first thing we went down.
In reply to MJH:I find it quite intimidating myself and have been down several times. The question is how experienced someone should be. Conditions are the other major factor, which change the arete constantly. Accidents occur regardless of experience but its about minimising the risk. Should inexperienced people be there?, I would say no they are risking their own lives and those around them. I define inexperienced as a limited/non existant knowledge of crampon and axe work.
When I first did it I was fairly experienced with crampons/ice axe etc, but only through scottish winter training.
Walking out of there for the first time, I was definetly a little unnerved by the scale of it all and the potential for a rapid return down to chamonix!
Walking out of there for the first time, I was definetly a little unnerved by the scale of it all and the potential for a rapid return down to chamonix!
Thanks for the discussion everyone.
To clarify about "inexperienced" - I do not mean "experts only", as the ridge is quite easy. I only mean prior experience on similar slopes using ice ax and crampons, self-arrest practice and knowledge, etc. The Midi arete is not the place, for example, to learn how easy it is to put a crampon through your trouser leg and fall over.
Sorry for the interruption, please continue.
To clarify about "inexperienced" - I do not mean "experts only", as the ridge is quite easy. I only mean prior experience on similar slopes using ice ax and crampons, self-arrest practice and knowledge, etc. The Midi arete is not the place, for example, to learn how easy it is to put a crampon through your trouser leg and fall over.
Sorry for the interruption, please continue.
In reply to John Blab:
This can happen to anyone. how ever experineced, it dosen't take much to loose concentration or be forced into stuttering a step.
A former lecturer did this despite being a hardened mountain guide.
> Thanks for the discussion everyone.
>
> to learn how easy it is to put a crampon through your trouser leg and fall over.
>
> to learn how easy it is to put a crampon through your trouser leg and fall over.
This can happen to anyone. how ever experineced, it dosen't take much to loose concentration or be forced into stuttering a step.
A former lecturer did this despite being a hardened mountain guide.
In reply to John Blab:
Not that black and white though - very hard to define the amount of experience required to make short roping the safer option.
My personal experience is that if you're alert and treat the arete with respect (ie tight rope) even a relative beginner is safer this way, but it really does depend on a lot of factors, including luck.
Not that black and white though - very hard to define the amount of experience required to make short roping the safer option.
My personal experience is that if you're alert and treat the arete with respect (ie tight rope) even a relative beginner is safer this way, but it really does depend on a lot of factors, including luck.
In reply to John Blab:
If you need to discuss this for other than semantic reasons you shouldnt descend it all. IMHO.
> I've had some debate lately with my friends about the best way to ascend/descend the Aiguille du Midi arete in terms of rope technique. What are your thoughts?
If you need to discuss this for other than semantic reasons you shouldnt descend it all. IMHO.
In reply to John Blab: i rather irresponsibly skied the valle blanche with just skis and sticks. next time id rather ski the arete as it really isnt pleasant going down the icy steps in ski boots with lots of bumblie and edgy frogs skittering down right next to you
In reply to John Blab: Very interesting topic, I first went up the midi one summer when I hadnt done any winter climbing at all anywhere. I shit myself when I saw the hardness and angle of the face on the Chamonix side. After my more experienced mate lead me out and back along the ridge I felt more up to it, until the third member of oput party exited the ice tunnel and promptly landed flat on his face with his crampon through his trouser leg. Despite being called names I refused to go down and headed back off to chamonix on the telepherique. Went up to Tete Rouse from Les Houche (sp?) instead.
I know now that I should never have been there with so little experience. chamonix is a big hard place to learn I think the Ecrins would be better but Chamonix is like bullshit town though aint it?
I know now that I should never have been there with so little experience. chamonix is a big hard place to learn I think the Ecrins would be better but Chamonix is like bullshit town though aint it?
In reply to Erik B:
I've alredy done it, twice, last April. Skis on at the tunnel.
We thought we were GNAR! until we saw a Frenchie absolutely caning it, making big fast turns on a Monoski!
> (In reply to Brian Birtle) i rather irresponsibly skied the valle blanche with just skis and sticks. next time id rather ski the arete as it really isnt pleasant going down the icy steps in ski boots with lots of bumblie and edgy frogs skittering down right next to you
I've alredy done it, twice, last April. Skis on at the tunnel.
We thought we were GNAR! until we saw a Frenchie absolutely caning it, making big fast turns on a Monoski!
In reply to John Blab:
I was there once in May and the French did that stuff all the time. I saw old ladies skiing the slope right from the tunnel. With neon overalls and stuff...
Quite many of them headed towards Aiguille du Plan and probably skied down the perfect slope we managed to avalanche this August. I saw some climbers retreating from that steep step while we were on our way back.
> We thought we were GNAR! until we saw a Frenchie absolutely caning it, making big fast turns on a Monoski!
I was there once in May and the French did that stuff all the time. I saw old ladies skiing the slope right from the tunnel. With neon overalls and stuff...
Quite many of them headed towards Aiguille du Plan and probably skied down the perfect slope we managed to avalanche this August. I saw some climbers retreating from that steep step while we were on our way back.
In reply to John Blab:
Done it several times in snowboard gear. Mostly with a guide, roped up along with 4 or 5 others, guide at the back. Nobody wearing poons or carrying axes except the guide. Have also done it solo wearing crampons. Felt a lot happier.
Doing it in snowboard boots is fine, it's the skiers with smooth-soled boots that make it scary...
Done it several times in snowboard gear. Mostly with a guide, roped up along with 4 or 5 others, guide at the back. Nobody wearing poons or carrying axes except the guide. Have also done it solo wearing crampons. Felt a lot happier.
Doing it in snowboard boots is fine, it's the skiers with smooth-soled boots that make it scary...
In reply to John Blab:
The Aiguille du Midi Arete is unique as it is descended after jumping on a telepherique. Normally to get onto terrain like the Midi Arete we (the aplinists) would already be moving together, and would continue to do so.
Given the artificial approach i dont see why parties need a rope to descend, because everybody should be able to use their axe and crampons effectively to descend a very straight forward ridge. Having said this i dont see why a group would stop prior to ascending the ridge and untie from the rope just for this section.
The problem is that rapid artificial access to high mountains and mountaineering just dont mix !
The Aiguille du Midi Arete is unique as it is descended after jumping on a telepherique. Normally to get onto terrain like the Midi Arete we (the aplinists) would already be moving together, and would continue to do so.
Given the artificial approach i dont see why parties need a rope to descend, because everybody should be able to use their axe and crampons effectively to descend a very straight forward ridge. Having said this i dont see why a group would stop prior to ascending the ridge and untie from the rope just for this section.
The problem is that rapid artificial access to high mountains and mountaineering just dont mix !
In reply to John Blab:
ps. hope you managed to get rid of that tw*t with his wind up accordian type thing
ps. hope you managed to get rid of that tw*t with his wind up accordian type thing
In reply to John Blab: You should always rope up if there is a risk of a serious fall, end of debate for sure i think....!
In reply to John Blab:
It depends on what conditions are like really, don't you think? Sometimes a rope is wise, sometimes it's quite unnecessary. I've never seen anyone belaying though, you'd feel a bit silly
It depends on what conditions are like really, don't you think? Sometimes a rope is wise, sometimes it's quite unnecessary. I've never seen anyone belaying though, you'd feel a bit silly
In reply to BorisB:
What a load of nonsense - you can be quite happy soloing something that you find easy, but that doesn't mean that the risk of a serious fall is removed.
> (In reply to Brian Birtle) You should always rope up if there is a risk of a serious fall, end of debate for sure i think....!
What a load of nonsense - you can be quite happy soloing something that you find easy, but that doesn't mean that the risk of a serious fall is removed.
In reply to MJH: and you can drive on the wrong side of the road and drink and drive, and play with matches and steal from shops....untill...! wise up!
In reply to BorisB:
I'll remind you about one thing. People solo regulary quite much harder stuff than the Midi Arete. For example, I'd seriously doubt the need of roping up if just soloed something like Frendo Spur and wanted to take the lift down.
I'll remind you about one thing. People solo regulary quite much harder stuff than the Midi Arete. For example, I'd seriously doubt the need of roping up if just soloed something like Frendo Spur and wanted to take the lift down.
In reply to BorisB: My mum has soloed this while my old man and I climbed the S face (we roped up though). TBH I have been on harder paths in Nepal than walking up the Midi Arete.
In reply to BorisB:
What, even if the rope woudn't stop the fall? Rather selfish to want company on the way down if you ask me.
Mark
> You should always rope up if there is a risk of a serious fall, end of debate for sure i think....!
What, even if the rope woudn't stop the fall? Rather selfish to want company on the way down if you ask me.
Mark
In reply to John Blab: i was shortroping someone down it this summer who was rather scared by the whole thing. it was a bit unreasonable of me to put them there to be honest. however, when i decided to belay them (there is actually a rock halfway down you could use) i got abuse from some french tw@t about how it was safer to shortrope etc. despite the fact that my partner was now going 10 times the speed.
In reply to John Blab:
solo it and beat the crowds to your route,thats what we did,whiule they are uncoiling ropes your off into the distance.....(hopefully not in a downward direction)
Craig
solo it and beat the crowds to your route,thats what we did,whiule they are uncoiling ropes your off into the distance.....(hopefully not in a downward direction)
Craig
In reply to critic:
Yer that's a good option. I do however have a mate that did that and nearly killed himself tripping over his crampons in haste to avoid the crowds
Rob
Yer that's a good option. I do however have a mate that did that and nearly killed himself tripping over his crampons in haste to avoid the crowds
Rob
In reply to ukminch:
Oh ye,alwazys swill your face with cold water before wrapping up for the cable car journey just incase your not quite awake when you leave the ice tunnel
Craig
Oh ye,alwazys swill your face with cold water before wrapping up for the cable car journey just incase your not quite awake when you leave the ice tunnel
Craig
In reply to critic:
lol
lol
Interesting.... Descending this earlier this year was my first experience with crampons and axe, on a (not really very short) rope from my mate above me. In hindsight, this was a total error and I should have got some experience elsewhere beforehand. We climbed Tacul the following day, but the Midi arete was easily the most worring part of the whole experience (hopefully not because I was naively missing something I should have been more worried about!). Next time I'd solo it.
Thanks for all the discussion... it has so far reinforced my original points.
I took down the mostly-beginner friend of mine on Tuesday. I don't think she should have done it. "How do I use this ice axe thing?" was her question at the tunnel. But she had done it on crampons several times (short roped to a guide or following the fixed lines) and said not to worry she'll be fine. I was like "hey it's up to you. I'm not pressuring you at all." Man! was I worried. Descended down below her, watching and giving crampon technique pointers...
Such a big deal made about a small, easy ridge, but one that can and has killed many.
The ridge was the scariest bit of the whole day - she flew through following the five pitch HVS on the South Face and on the way back up the ridge is not nearly as daunting.
I took down the mostly-beginner friend of mine on Tuesday. I don't think she should have done it. "How do I use this ice axe thing?" was her question at the tunnel. But she had done it on crampons several times (short roped to a guide or following the fixed lines) and said not to worry she'll be fine. I was like "hey it's up to you. I'm not pressuring you at all." Man! was I worried. Descended down below her, watching and giving crampon technique pointers...
Such a big deal made about a small, easy ridge, but one that can and has killed many.
The ridge was the scariest bit of the whole day - she flew through following the five pitch HVS on the South Face and on the way back up the ridge is not nearly as daunting.
In reply to John Blab:
My mate Boarded it the day after I took my "wading in snow midi pic" (in my gallery).
I was pretty envious!
He was tragically killed on MB a month or so later ;-(
> (In reply to Erik B)
> [...]
>
> I've alredy done it, twice, last April. Skis on at the tunnel.
>
> We thought we were GNAR! until we saw a Frenchie absolutely caning it, making big fast turns on a Monoski!
> [...]
>
> I've alredy done it, twice, last April. Skis on at the tunnel.
>
> We thought we were GNAR! until we saw a Frenchie absolutely caning it, making big fast turns on a Monoski!
My mate Boarded it the day after I took my "wading in snow midi pic" (in my gallery).
I was pretty envious!
He was tragically killed on MB a month or so later ;-(
In reply to Guy: WOW your nails, can i have your autograph please....tool!
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