UKH

Before the bun fight ensues let's get the terms of reference right:

- I MTB

- I don't think mountain bike riding contributes more significantly to erosion of paths that walking but I will accept that it can contribute to more use and erosion in different places

However...

I was passed by a "pod" of e-MTBs all done up in full downhill gear at the weekend after they lifted their bikes over a stile next to a sign saying "no bikes, no motor vehicles" and then shot up a step path.

I was shocked at the damage they caused - totally different to a push bike, not quite a big trials bike but not far off. Big tyre tracks tearing up the grass, large stones overturned and pulled our of steps, big gouges in the peat.

I suppose the bikes were quieter than trials bikes but the "pod" was not, whopping and loudly braying all the way like a bunch of Bullingdon Club yoiks.

Once they got onto the flat the damage was not so evident but they created way more damage that the same number of walkers or self powered MTBs (who would likely have had to push at this point).

In reply to gravy:

I am a keen cyclist and mountain bike alot, but can clearly see the damage done from inappropriate bike use in winter and wet weather.  Alot of bad erosion in local Kilpatrick hills caused by mountain biking through the winter but problem has got a lot worse with e bikes, in past some steep uphills etc wouldn't be worth hassle in winter, but are still passable with e bikes so local erosion definitely been getting worse last few winters due to increased use.

Definitely more responsibility required, causes conflict with walkers and leads to land owners trying to restrict access to cyclists and ultimately ruins the whole mountain bike experience by severely rutting some trails which are usually excellent in dry summer conditions

In reply to gravy:

There's loads of E-bikes about in the lakes these days, they've really taken off and that's great for getting people out and its amazing for accessibility and inclusivity. there's a lot of positives... but I have also observed that on steep inclines they knacker a loose surface really fast.

E-bikes make riding uphill more fun and certainly far easier so people will say on the bikes longer where a standard rider would be off and pushing/carrying. Inevitably e-bike power levels are getting higher (they are already way more powerful than the early stuff) there will come a point that you could "cycle" up a steep hill at speeds previously reserved for trials bikes.

Its not hard to see that there may be conflict on the horizon. Maybe the industry can design around the erosion with tech (limit torque, traction control etc) but I feel the demand for more raw climbing power will be what sells bikes, after all who wants to get off and push after spending all that cash? 

edit, I still want one though  

In reply to gravy:

It's worth noting it's not just E-bikes. It's a 'cheeky' trail which I never really bother riding anyways (due to the following) but anyone riding in the Peak for a good number of years will be able to tell you the damage that riders have done to alpine/les arcs. Used to be alright, but too much riding in the rain has made is ridiculously wide. At the same time, PDMTB and Ride Sheffield do some fab work, so it's certainly not everyone.

The environmental argument doesn't always work sadly. Some definitely need it drumming into them that they are damaging the area they ride in and then will be complaining that it's not as good in a few years' time.

In reply to gravy:

Might be a bit selective! https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/research-reveals-walkers-do-more-damage-to-trail...

There's quite a bit of comparative research now available since I did my MSc final project on it 25 years ago! eg https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301479720314791

In reply to gravy:

I've noticed an increase in obvious mtb damage a lot in the Lakes lately. I can't help thinking e-bikes are probably a major cause, they definitely seem to allow more people to get to areas where they wouldn't have otherwise been, increasing total traffic.

I feel like chicken runs on popular hard descents are getting more widespread too, cutting tight corners or avoiding difficult obstacles etc. Walkers are guilty of straying off paths too, but I find it kinda disappointing when mtbers do it - if you haven't got the skill to ride the line, come back when you can instead of just tearing a new easier path into the hillside. Easy to blame the increase in aforementioned e-bikers getting higher and further in the fells, but I suspect it's also down to things like social media publicising of 'must do' descents, insistence on taking some kind of 'racing line' to get a better time on Strava, people trying to emulate pros etc in 'shredits' who seem to glorify locking out your back wheel and dragging it round every corner to make a rooster tail of dirt whilst knackering the trail (seriously, why the f*** is this a thing?!) and lastly just general lack of trail etiquette (probably just getting old and grumpy but there's definitely more people acting like knobs. Maybe it's just that mtbing is getting more popular and the actual proportion of knobs is about the same as it always was)

I'd love to see increased access for mtbers, but the (perceived?) rise in irresponsible trail use really doesn't help the cause, just ammunition for people who complain about the damage bikes do - something I always used to refute, but sometimes it seems it's just undeniably true.

Anyway, glad I've got that off my chest. Back in my day etc etc... Kids these days blah blah blah...

In reply to paul_the_northerner:

The power limit for EAPCs (250W) hasn't changed since the regulation was introduced in (IIRC) 2014.  Anything capable of a higher continuous power output is classed as an electric motorcycle, and to be ridden legally in a public place such a vehicle would have to be registered, taxed and insured, and the rider would have to wear a helmet conformant with the standard for motorcycle helmets.  Such a vehicle could not in any case be legally ridden on public footpaths or bridleways* since it would be classed as a motor vehicle, not a bicycle - though it would be legal to ride it on a Byway Open to All Traffic.

* Other than, I think, those which follow the route of private roads, provided that the owner of the private road has given consent for such use.

In reply to Martin W:

Quite a few illegal e mountain bikes are evident in my local hills and even around city centre of Glasgow, problem is virtually impossible to police there use in local outdoors and like wise many will escape getting caught in city as well.

In reply to gravy:

Were they e-mtbs or e-motorbikes?

I have only had a quick play on a couple of e-bicycles so limited knowledge but wouldnt have thought outside of on wet grass they would be significantly more damaging. Whereas an e-motorbike could and sadly there do seem to have been quite a few sold by irresponsible companies on the nudge nudge wink wink this is only for private land.

In reply to mondite:

Problem basically is they make terrain more accessible in winter or bad weather, so routes people wouldn't bother normally riding over winter still get used by e bikes, during the winter past most the mountain bikes I seen up my local hills were e bikes and damage and erossion worst I have ever seen.  Although e bikes have a speed a power limit it is easy to buy a by pass kit online, and also alot of illegal e mountain bikes that as you say are more like motor bike even though you can still pedal them.  E bikes in general are amazing for increasing access to outdoors, but ease of use also have down side as I have stated above.

In reply to Martin W:

A bloke on a Trek Full sus MTB passed me on my road bike sitting bolt upright going at almost 30 mph into a headwind.

Regulations don' t meant much it seems.

In reply to gethin_allen:

It's quite easy to hack a lot of the earlier motors into going much faster - and a lot of after market conversion kits with no limits at all, sold for "use on private land only"!

The more recent legal models are able to detect the hacks and shut down, but it's probably only a matter of time before someone works out how to bypass them with a software upgrade.

In reply to gravy:

Just to be clear, there's no such thing as an illegal mountain bike. It's either a mountain bike or an illegal motor bike. 

I know that's splitting hairs but if we're going to be calling out an activity lets not create misinformation which harms those who aren't doing anything wrong. 

In reply to a crap climber:

I agree, it's not just eMTBs but the fact that there are so many more bikers in the hills these days full stop and they do tear up paths no doubt about it. The remorseless rise of humanity is depressing to behold. I'm back to the extinction event thread 😠 

In reply to Siward:

I've always previously tried to maintain that the path erosion caused by a responsible mtber is comparable to that of a responsible walker. Lots of people would claim that bikes are worse, but I think an element of that is down to tyre tracks being a continuous line that is more noticeable rather than the worn path from walkers that people are more used to seeing and hence looks like a 'natural' part of the landscape. And as mentioned by Bulls Crack upthread, there are studies that conclude bikes don't cause disproportionately worse erosion.

I'm definitely starting to come to the position though that irresponsible mtbing does a lot of very overt damage, which many people understandably take issue with.

Obviously I need to maintain this distinction between responsible and irresponsible path used, that way I can convince myself that I'm responsible and not a part of the problem, hence justifying my own actions when mtbing.

I'm not sure how to really solve this. Better education would work in some cases - perhaps if more people understood that if you knacker a path too much, it'll eventually get turned into steps which are less fun to ride, then they might treat what is essential a finite resource with more respect. Some people can't think beyond their own immediate gratification though and no amount of education will help. Maybe a punch in the face?

Good shout...

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Further to your links its worth noting the introduction of lower pressure tubeless tyres and larger diameter wheels which have a larger contact surface area and therefore i would assume do less damage.

In reply to muppetfilter:

I have switched to fat bikes for this reason.  4" tyres are the minimum , fattest are 5" , some 4.8" .

They are significantly better as far as trail damage is concerned.

If all off road e bikes were far it would be a great help.

In reply to gravy:

It's making the path wider by walkers and bikers that causes the path erosion, but no on wants to walk through that wet bit so go wider then the path becomes wider. 

In reply to gravy:

The main difference I have noticed is if a group of MTBs follow the same line on soft ground it doesn't take long for a channel to form the next time it rains heavily.

The notoriously overgrazed Lakeland fells have fragile top soil so it's likely a small increase in MTB traffic results in a disproportionate amount of damage. 

The key here is education, people getting out and about on the hills is a good thing but minimising damage where possible benefits everyone.

In reply to gravy:

There's something about powersports that attract self entitled nob heads.

I know plenty of people who are MTBers who ebike as they get older or who just want to ride further. These types of riders don't cause the problems.

It's the equivalent of dirt bike or ATV riders who do who have found a loop hole to ride a motor where they're not allowed before. One ATV can destroy an entire section of singletrack plus flora on side of trail. The destruction is so glaring I don't know how these people can justify it, they're just self-entitled and that's the root of the problem really, not the fact that you can get a MTB with an electric motor now.

Same thing as MTBers who wear lycra and cut corners which creates trail braids just to get KOMs on Strava. Or the ones who can't ride tech and think everything should be a flow trail building massive dirt jumps on land where they're not allowed and get entire good areas shut down.

All these things have happened near me recently. If only there was a way to get rid of nob heads instead of ebikes.

In reply to Martin W:

True, but I was amazed at the difference when Mrs J had her 8 year old ebike serviced 2 years ago. She had had a courtesy bike (same model), the torque available was nearly double. 

In reply to RobAJones:

250W is still quite a lot! Most fit roadies couldn’t hold 250W for that long. Not wanting to be mean to MTBers, but I suspect that’s a full gas effort for most of them.

I know I sound very elitist, but it you want to go off-road (or on road), you should have the power to do it by yourself. E-bikes are motorbikes in my opinion and should be regulated as such.

In reply to VSisjustascramble:

No argument with that, but when I checked the max. torque has increased from 50Nm to 90Nm. According to an online calculator that equates to more like a change 350 watts to over 700? That certainly fits with me being able to comfortably  do 25kph up a 15% hill on the courtesy bike on full power as the combined weight of me and bike would be over 100kg

It has been brilliant for Mrs J and probably anyone else with injury/health problems. The best cyclist I know (sub. 6h FW) uses one to commute, on the insistence of his coach. We are a few years behind the continent, and most of their ascents tend to be on forest roads, but the idea of being able to descend 6000m of single track in a day on a mb has real appeal

On a selfish note I'd prefer it if the speed limit was capped to 30kph rather than 25

In reply to gravy

 Heli - biking has arrived in Coed y Brenin. Last Saturday, a couple from the south east (Kent was mentioned) arrived by private charter helicopter at a farm on the edge of Coed y Brenin Forest. They hired a pair of electric bikes for two hours then flew home. Now that's environmental damage!

In reply to Myfyr Tomos:

Old news! Decades ago I watched dumfounded as some prats were repeatedly helicoptered from a pasture in Kingsdale to the crest of Gragareth. Just so they could paraglide back down. Thankfully, it hasn't caught on - but no doubt it's due for a return given the rise in selfish entitlement apparent in many people.

In reply to RobAJones:

Still limited to 25kph and 250w the higher torque just means you can get the same power at a lower cadence (26.5rpm with 90Nm). There  is no way you could be doing do 25kph up a 15% hill unless the bike has been de-restricted.   25kph up a 15%Hill  at a 100kg takes  over 1000w!

I'd rather it was capped at 25kph at all times, with the motor braking on the downhills to slow the crazy fools down.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Probably a bit of selective memory, the sign said 15% so the average gradient was probably closer to 10. It was the difference between the 250W bikes that was striking. 

Only personal experience but ebike users I have come across are generally the opposite of crazy fools. Does you logic extend to normal bikes, I'm physically capable of riding down our High Street at over 40kph, not sure there is a correlation between physical fitness and road sense. I could perhaps see some logic in young kids having to pass some sort of test. 

In reply to mondite:

There seems to be a big blurring here, with big-tyred e-bikes being popular and likely having the same sort of effect as a petrol motorbike with the same tyres.

In reply to gravy:

I suspect that as a 73 years old moderately skilled EMTB rider I do far less damage to a trail than a 19 year old riding aggressively on a standard mountain bike.

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Bikes don't cause damage, riders do. 

On a slight side note, I thought bikes were limited to 12.5mph / 15kmh, Google is giving me lots of different answers. 

In reply to thepodge:

For them to be legal on the road (inc bridleways) in the UK they must be restricted to maximum 15.5mph (in terms of when the assistance cuts out. You can ride faster but just cant have it helping), have a maximum watt power and to only work in pedal assisted mode eg no throttle.

However there are various hacks to override the 15.5 mph limit and then there are also ones sold "for private offroad use" only which may or may not bother even having pedals vs just the throttle.

In reply to thepodge:

Yes that was partly my point although a 24kg machine with a motor behind it is always going to be more detrimental than a 12kg bike when ridden in a similar manner. Around my area, in the Cotswolds, horses seem to inflict far more damage but that's just anecdotal and observed.

It's not the outright speed that is restricted but rather a restriction to the assistance i.e. the motor assisted speed.

What I tend to baulk against is the slight whiff of "banning".

Al

In reply to thepodge:

12.5 mph is 20km/h, not 15km/h. Perhaps that explains some confusion? 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I think I've just made a load of numbers up to be honest. 

In reply to gravy: whenever I see descriptions of a days riding,  I frequently I used to struggle to do 20 miles, know I do 35 or whatever.  The extra weight is one thing, the same increase in total volume ridden will have an impact, especially as they open up difficult terrain for a lot more people.

## can we stop this " I wish ' extinction event nonsense?  You had your chance with Covid and noone seemed keen to get it to save the planet 

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Are the dislikes because some of you disagree?  If so why not discuss?  Or is it because some of you are the 19 year old aggressive riders

Al

In reply to gravy:

UKC is a climbing based website. Why not complain about all the trashed crags, damaged boulders and the surrounding delicate eco systems  that increased numbers of climbers have caused. Trails can be repaired. No chance whatsoever with rock. It’s already irreversibly damaged. 

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

I think I fall into the 'aggressive rider' category here - I think rider skill drastically influences the amount of erosion, which is only exaggerated with the extra weight of an ebike. What I frequently see on steeper, technical trails is less skilled riders hesitating when they reach a more difficult section. This causes them to stiffen up in their body and lock the rear wheel (this being what causes the vast majority of trail erosion when riding downhill), rather than being able to carry their speed through. A more skilled (aggressive) rider would also brake before the section without locking up, so they can ride through with more grip. Similarly, on sustained steep sections, the default method less skilled riders use to control their bikes is to lock their rear wheel, which results in the formation of ruts. A more skilled rider would brake more evenly to remain in control, which also reduces erosion.

On the surface it may seem that younger, more aggressive/skilled riders chew up the trails more but I think it is skill that has a greater impact rather than age or riding style. Of course there are going to be exceptions to this as well though.

In response to the OP - I do agree that ebikes cause more trail damage generally. This is only enhanced by their recent explosion in popularity.

In reply to jbell:

Whilst I am sure there is some truth in what you say my observations would suggest otherwise.  Aggressive, even expert, riders seem to kick up far more dust and mud than I do. That dust and mud is damage to the the trail. I think riding in the wet and mud is probably a big contributor.

In reply to gravy:

Don't necessarily disagree .. but I think the OP fails to acknowledge how, amongst other things, the change in tyre choice has had an impact too.

Not that long ago .. the masses, myself included, had a generic "MTB" tyre on their bike.  Bit skinny, bit of tread, some lugs round the edges, inner in it.  

Now I run 2.6", tubeless, ultra soft compound, Magic Mary's up front and Hans Dampf (soft compound) on the rear .  Magic Mary's are effectively a mud tyre ... they are super effective in wet conditions and allow me to ride well in the winter season when it would otherwise be miserable.  

Add to that the fact that tyre choice has been brought to the masses at reasonable price in recent years.  £45-£50 for a magic Mary front tyre.

Alongside e-bikes, dropper posts and geometry changes ... modern tyres are opening up terrain that was otherwise closed to bikes and at times of the year (wet times) that were otherwise not getting ridden.

The e-bike in its own right isn't why we're witnessing a larger impact from MTB's.  MTB's are massively more capable than they were just 10x years ago, they cost less, they're more reliable, and heaps-and-heaps-and-heaps more people are getting into the sport.

This story is going rumble on for the next 10 years.  Worse before it gets better.

https://www.schwalbe.com/en/mtb-reader/magic-mary

(Also .. Magic Mary's are ace ... would highly recommend them.  Stick it on the front only ... overkill if you had it front and back.  Put something faster and with harder compound on the rear.  The ultra soft compound doesn't last that well ... I'll probably swap it out for soft compound when this one wears out.  But I do plan to stick with magic mary on the front for winter season.)

In reply to StuPoo2:

If you want to get real dirty, there's always Dan.  He's been known to drag Mary under the table

In reply to gravy:

Check the archives of high, stumbler and bumbler etc and you will find very similar gripes in the late 80s/early 90s when mountain bikes started to become popular.

E bikes are something new that has become popular so others choose to moan about it.

Chalk, friends, mountain bikes, mobile phones, have all been through this phase. Drones are just coming out of it.