UKC

Historic Environment Scotland (HES) has placed bolts on the well-known Black Wall Traverse in the South Quarry of Salisbury Crags, Edinburgh, in order to secure fencing to close off the climbing area on the currently-banned Radical Road, which runs along the foot of the Crags.

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I, for one, am SHOCKED that the rest of society gives zero hoots about UK Trad ethics. Who would have thought it?! Don’t they read the UKC forums?!

Can I just check that I've understood this correctly?

1. Climbers damage fence
2. Authority that owns the land puts up new, stronger fence
3. Climbers are outraged that new fence doesn't rely solely on natural protection

Also, can we get confirmation as to whether the bolts are titanium, expansion, or pegbolts? 

Although it all sounds a bit ridiculous, it would have been nice if the local authorities had met and spoken with the area reps about things like this. 

I know when the council were bolting new rock anchors and grouting the Suspension Bridge Buttress in Avon, they involved the local BMC/ClimbBristol team in the discussions. That may in part have been because they were requesting a temporary halt to climbing on the cliff whilst the works were carried out, rather than trying to enforce an outright ban. 

I somewhat misleading clickbait headline I think.

I was hoping for a proper heated good old bolting debate.

"This house believes  Diabaig should have its belay bolts chopped"

Over to you

I believe they're releasing Scottish wild cats inside the compound. Big, mean ones.

I'm sure local climber Stephen Venables would happily take on the financial and legal liabilities if some local wanderer, dog walker, climber, pissed up youth or couple seeking a romantic spot was hit by rockfall in this area?

'In a 2021 risk assessment of the outcrops within Holyrood Park, HES claimed - without quantification - that rockfalls have been occurring in greater volume and frequency in the area and connected this to rising temperatures due to climate change.'

Ah yes, the Salisbury Crags permafrost. 

Mass tresspass when?

It’s about time they returned these crags to Salisbury and Salisbury send Stonehenge back to Wales. Best to get our own house in order before we start sorting out the Elgin marbles!

Never understood why HES etc have determined that the Salisbury crags area is a no climb zone. I don't see the risk to the public or the environment. Also the measures which include damaging the environment (bolts) and the frankly, ludicrous fencing arrangement with its "rabbit hutch" fence posts in bright green speak for themselves. What do HES think they're acheiving other than proving how out of touch they are with reality ?

No, the sooner the marbles are back where they belong in Elgin the better.

Until embarrassingly recently (like, a couple months ago) I honestly thought the Elgin marbles were marbles as in the children's game. Their significance and value makes a lot more sense now!

Wait....what?!

I’m hoping that means you’ve just had a similar facepalm moment to the one I had?

Na, that’s never bright green. Could be green but I’m thinking dark green…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shades_of_green

Sorry! 😉

Just marvelling at my ignorance then? That’s okay, I feared as much!

It's funny how little things like that can get stuck in your head and stay there for years.

I spent decades thinking the expression was "make ends meat", and I often wondered what "end meat" was, and why poor people had to rely on making it to get by.

I've never seen a fence like that. What are the green boxes for?

No, I was just trying to join in the humorous 'penny-dropping' moment.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Kind of reminds me of when I was very young and a friend telling me and my Dad (who was giving us a lift somewhere in the car) about a type of tv programme called 'So Paupers', as the people in them were very poor. I'd not even heard of soap operas back then but I'm not sure how my dad managed to keep a straight face.

Only if they are then replaced by pegbolts and tat made to look old like at the top of the strand.

I'm personally outraged that nobody has chopped the pegbolts on The Strand yet. Anybody logging that as a send without doing the heather scramble second pitch, having established an independent belay without use of the pegbolts, is a Logbook Liar.

I presume they're to stand on to help you climb over the fence 😁

Venables’ statement is erm… well it’s quite something isn’t it?  
 

HES are on a bit of a roll currently with closing things. A lot of their properties have not reopened to the public post covid (Not obviously Edinburgh and Stirling castles as they're big cash cows). Apparently they've all become unsafe and nothing to do with them all losing HES money. Closing the Radical Road is utter nonsense as the the risk to the public is minimal and it's time HES remembered that they are guardians of our heritage and not gatekeepers.

Seems like that unaccountable "executive non-departmental government body" is acting...executively...!

So, how do we hold them to account? 

Execute them ?

Mass trespass, get 100 climbers to climb carefully over the fence and then climb all over the rockface, carefully removing any loose rock of course.

Question, is there a gate anywhere in the fence, because if not, once you're over the fence, how is any officialdom going to stop you? By also climbing over the fence?

OK while this might seem like small cheese to non-locals, it is adding injury to insult in regards to the long term access issue of the Radical Road and associated Crags.

The insulting irony of the this development is the fact that HES regulations specifically forbade the placement of fixed anchors in any rock to protect the geological and archaeological heritage of the area.

https://www.historicenvironment.scot/media/4871/holyrood-park-climbing-guid...

Quote : “No fixings, however temporary, can be made to therock due to the sensitivity of the archaeologicaland geological remains. No pitons, bolts or stakes etc. are to be used. Climbing with ropes and other safety equipment is also discouraged to avoid damage to the rock face, to the ground at the top of the crags and to the rare plant and animal life of the park. “

To clarify a few points, perhaps misconstrued by those less familiar with Scots land rights...

The park is not owned by the 'authority' that raised the fence. The fence and access ban is the responsibility of Historic Environment Scotland (HES), who also manage castles and the like. The park and crags were previously owned by the crown but gifted to the Scottish Ministry at the point of Devolution in 1998, i.e. the Scottish Parliament, representing the people of Scotland. It belongs to everyone.

It is, however, still subject to historic by-laws that exempt it from the Land Rights Act right-to-roam, thus allowing the management (HES) to legally restrict access.

The bolt is placed in a wall/problem which is a benchmark stepping-stone for countless Edinburgh climbers and often their first Font 6C, having projected it for ages. I have to wonder the equivalent fuss that would ensue if a livestock fence had been secured with a bolt to e.g. Not to be Taken Away.

And its not even climbers that are pushing the fence aside. From what I can see, we’ve been remarkably well behaved, waiting for the situation to resolve. Its just folk wanting to walk along the Radical Road that push between the fence and rock.

In the meantime, all the tourists that want to enjoy the unrivalled views from the Crags across Edinburgh and west are now directed along the top of the crags, where rather than a decent wide path, there is a slippery, polished and slopey track running closely along the edge of a 30m cliff. Very safe.

That’s actually really helpful - cheers for that. 

There is more to this than access rights.  If HES are responsible for the land they have a statutory duty under the Occupiers Liability (Scotland) Act 1960 to take reasonable steps to protect visitors on their land from any dangers, and the access rights under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 don't override this (and apparently don't apply here anyway).

As a land manager myself I have some sympathy with HES position, having also had to manage land with public access where there was a risk of rockfall. I think they probably had little choice to fence the area off temporarily. However the way they have done this is clearly unsatisfactory, especially as it breaches HES's on guidance.  Having some insight into how these things are done, I suspect the decisions on how to actually carry out the works were made at a fairly low level, perhaps by a maintenance crew on the spot, with no awareness of the guidance or climbing interests.  This may explain, but does not of course excuse, the way HES have dealt with this. 

Neither should fencing be seen as a permanent solution, and HES should be looking for ways to stabilise the area of rockfall so that public access can be reinstated.  Even with Covid intervening it would be reasonable to ask what they have done about this.  The heading of the article says that bolts were placed "near" the climbing, but what from you say they appear to have actually affected an established problem.  I can well understand why this is an issue for local climbers and other users of the area.

Even car parks near but not within falling down range of Hysterical Scotland properties have been Herased off.  Spent a fair bit of time in Galloway in the Spring, and just about everything that they managed had a fence around it.  

There's an easy (diff?) downclimb into the quarry with the good bouldering.  Or there certainly used to be.

The Glen Lyon estate (notorious for trying to prevent access to the Munros there) had the main walkers car park cordoned off and signs up warning of risk from falling tree branches. This was maybe a month or two ago. 'It's for your own safety' has become the latest tactic, probably because it's a particularly difficult one to argue against, giving the illusion of moral high ground to the blocker. 

A tricky problem, in that us climbers can weigh up the (small) risk of rockfall and make an informed choice. Tourists/nonclimbers might reasonably expect to walk in a city park and not get flattened, so may need more protection, and a sign might not cut it in court afterwards, which is what this is really about.

My suggestion is: keep the fence, indeed make it stronger. But have a gate with a 4 digit code to unlock it. Climbers can get the code from the Holyrood Park Education Centre (ahem, where we all used to get our climbing permit from, right?). That way, the general public doesnt have access.

Of course the word will get out, the gate MIGHT be left open, etc, BUT HES can reasonably claim to have taken real precautions. And climbers get to climb. Might need to move bolts at S Quarry side tho.

Can we? How do you make a realistic assessment of the current rockfall danger at Salisbury Crags without a very close and detailed examination (which, obviously, nobody does.)

Don't be so patronizing: most people aren't stupid. A warning sign regarding any potential theoretical risk would be more than enough.

I strongly disagree. Don't encourage the f-uckers.

Yes, I saw that. It just blatant intimidation. I was tempted to park anyway and leave a note on my car saying that I was happy to take responsibility for the risks.

I scooted the cones over and parked there anyway. 

They beat the man and scold the woman etc.

In the Peak one notorious land owner has put up "Private Land" signs along alot of his fences. Correct it is private land and it's perfectly legal to have the signs but helps discourage people from legitimately accessing the Open Access land in an intimidating and deceptive.