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It has been a very bad year for deaths in the mountains, with at least 3 climbing deaths in the Lake District, over 100 fatalities in the European Alps, most recently last week when 8 climbers died in an avalanche and 11 deaths on K2 in the Himalaya at the beginning of August.
On Friday a family of three from Peterborough fell 200-ft off Sharp Edge, Blencathra in the Lake District. In a joint operation Keswick Mountain Rescue Team and Sea King helicopters from RAF Bulmer and RAF Valley rescued the family, however the 38-year old mother was pronounced dead.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=08&year=2008#n45286
On Friday a family of three from Peterborough fell 200-ft off Sharp Edge, Blencathra in the Lake District. In a joint operation Keswick Mountain Rescue Team and Sea King helicopters from RAF Bulmer and RAF Valley rescued the family, however the 38-year old mother was pronounced dead.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=08&year=2008#n45286
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Just a correction to your article - the MRC website is for England and Wales, not the UK. For Scotland, it's best to contribute to individual teams.
Just a correction to your article - the MRC website is for England and Wales, not the UK. For Scotland, it's best to contribute to individual teams.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I doubt that there's any particular root cause for all these accidents or that this year is any different to last in terms of "risk per climber".
The number of accidents per year will always fluctuate around an average for a given decade and since humans are brilliant at pattern recognition we always seem to fuss about each variation and cluster. I suspect on balance that your readers were as cautions or reckless this year as last.
A statistical cluster of accidents doesn't have to reflect anything - the test is whether the trend is maintained or continues or whether it reverts back to the mean. In fact to suggest that there may be a differing human element in this year's accidents without checking the validity (as above) might be considered offensive. To do so presumes, in general terms, that this years victims were more reckless, inexperienced, and made more mistakes than those in other years, without any real grounds for this presumption.
Flipping a coin can result in 10 heads in a row but this doesn't mean the coin is weighted!
So you are correct that "Climbing and mountaineering are dangerous, you can die or suffer serious injuries out there. Make sure you have the skills to reduce the risk, understand the dangers that you might face, plan ahead and don't let ambition cloud good judgement" but considering the context of the article I'm less thrilled to read "The message is clear" the message is probably made no more clear by the accidents this year than by those last year.
Given the context of the article you risk making this years victims poster boys for your statement when they may have been skilled, comprehended the dangers they might face, planned ahead and tempered their ambition with judgement and only had the misfortune to be part of a statistically insignificant cluster. Why use them specifically as a point of reference?
This need to attribute causes (and I'm straying from your article now which only gently implies criticism) to climbing accidents is something that bugs me about climbing culture. When someone is struck by lightning we don't usually consider this a mistake or failing on their part (unless there's evidence that they were waving a conducting fishing rod over their head or somesuch) when discussing a climbing accident why do we assume a cause so often without waiting for supporting evidence? Not that people are directly offensive, just that we presuppose a mistake rather than misfortune...
I doubt that there's any particular root cause for all these accidents or that this year is any different to last in terms of "risk per climber".
The number of accidents per year will always fluctuate around an average for a given decade and since humans are brilliant at pattern recognition we always seem to fuss about each variation and cluster. I suspect on balance that your readers were as cautions or reckless this year as last.
A statistical cluster of accidents doesn't have to reflect anything - the test is whether the trend is maintained or continues or whether it reverts back to the mean. In fact to suggest that there may be a differing human element in this year's accidents without checking the validity (as above) might be considered offensive. To do so presumes, in general terms, that this years victims were more reckless, inexperienced, and made more mistakes than those in other years, without any real grounds for this presumption.
Flipping a coin can result in 10 heads in a row but this doesn't mean the coin is weighted!
So you are correct that "Climbing and mountaineering are dangerous, you can die or suffer serious injuries out there. Make sure you have the skills to reduce the risk, understand the dangers that you might face, plan ahead and don't let ambition cloud good judgement" but considering the context of the article I'm less thrilled to read "The message is clear" the message is probably made no more clear by the accidents this year than by those last year.
Given the context of the article you risk making this years victims poster boys for your statement when they may have been skilled, comprehended the dangers they might face, planned ahead and tempered their ambition with judgement and only had the misfortune to be part of a statistically insignificant cluster. Why use them specifically as a point of reference?
This need to attribute causes (and I'm straying from your article now which only gently implies criticism) to climbing accidents is something that bugs me about climbing culture. When someone is struck by lightning we don't usually consider this a mistake or failing on their part (unless there's evidence that they were waving a conducting fishing rod over their head or somesuch) when discussing a climbing accident why do we assume a cause so often without waiting for supporting evidence? Not that people are directly offensive, just that we presuppose a mistake rather than misfortune...
In reply to Wrongfoot: I think there is an element of people wanting to dissect such incidents in order to glean ways in which they can make there own climbing safer though. But yes, sometimes accidents just happen.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mick, I can't help feeling there is something at odds between the implied conclusion-drawing in your editorial "Sharp Edge is mountaineering, not hill walking", and the heavy pruning of off-message comments on the original thread.
I predict that this incident will give rise to greater confusion as to the role of these forums post-apocalypse. Largely because the climbing community may feel a bit more distance between these hill-walker victims than a regular climber and poster like Ian Jackson, but also because there are glaring issues which could be raised.
Mick, I can't help feeling there is something at odds between the implied conclusion-drawing in your editorial "Sharp Edge is mountaineering, not hill walking", and the heavy pruning of off-message comments on the original thread.
I predict that this incident will give rise to greater confusion as to the role of these forums post-apocalypse. Largely because the climbing community may feel a bit more distance between these hill-walker victims than a regular climber and poster like Ian Jackson, but also because there are glaring issues which could be raised.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mick any reason why you felt you should omit mentioning the particpation of the RAF Leuchars Mountain Rescue Team?
Mick any reason why you felt you should omit mentioning the particpation of the RAF Leuchars Mountain Rescue Team?
In reply to Jamie B.:
That might explain the lack of any reaction when I have posted my sympathies for two hill walking accidents in the last year. Not a reply to my opening post from a single person on UKC which I was sadly suprised at. It gave the impression that no one cared as they were "only" hill walkers. Well I climb, hill walk, ski, kayak, canoe and mountain bike and am saddened by any death on the hills/during outdoor pursuits and am sorry for those lost so far this year
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
Largely because the climbing community may feel a bit more distance between these hill-walker victims than a regular climberThat might explain the lack of any reaction when I have posted my sympathies for two hill walking accidents in the last year. Not a reply to my opening post from a single person on UKC which I was sadly suprised at. It gave the impression that no one cared as they were "only" hill walkers. Well I climb, hill walk, ski, kayak, canoe and mountain bike and am saddened by any death on the hills/during outdoor pursuits and am sorry for those lost so far this year
In reply to Jamie B.:
I don't think this should be the case. I think I occupy the middle ground beween 'walker' and 'climber', not really fully belonging to either category but with great interest and many friends in both. I'm sure many others on UKC feel like as if are in a similar position.
I have always seen the distinction between mountain walking and climbing as an artificial and arbitrary one anyway, so I think it would be a shame if climbers felt less of a reaction to the deaths of walkers or scramblers in the mountains.
> Largely because the climbing community may feel a bit more distance between these hill-walker victims than a regular climber and poster like Ian Jackson
I don't think this should be the case. I think I occupy the middle ground beween 'walker' and 'climber', not really fully belonging to either category but with great interest and many friends in both. I'm sure many others on UKC feel like as if are in a similar position.
I have always seen the distinction between mountain walking and climbing as an artificial and arbitrary one anyway, so I think it would be a shame if climbers felt less of a reaction to the deaths of walkers or scramblers in the mountains.
In reply to duntelchaig midge:
I think your conclusion may be wrong there. I decided a while ago to stop posting condolences on threads unless it was someone I knew. The point at which I stopped was when there was a thread about someone I did know. I just felt... oh I don't know, I just felt that going on a thread about someone I didn't know and posting condolences was a bit invasive or something. I'm not saying I was right to feel like that or anything, likely not... I'm just replying so that you realise a lack of replies to such threads doesn't mean what you've assumed it to mean. I feel very upset thinking about the family on Sharp Edge, I feel more natural connection with them than I do many accidents, just because I have children of my own. But I'm staying off condolences threads unless I knew the person involved.
I think your conclusion may be wrong there. I decided a while ago to stop posting condolences on threads unless it was someone I knew. The point at which I stopped was when there was a thread about someone I did know. I just felt... oh I don't know, I just felt that going on a thread about someone I didn't know and posting condolences was a bit invasive or something. I'm not saying I was right to feel like that or anything, likely not... I'm just replying so that you realise a lack of replies to such threads doesn't mean what you've assumed it to mean. I feel very upset thinking about the family on Sharp Edge, I feel more natural connection with them than I do many accidents, just because I have children of my own. But I'm staying off condolences threads unless I knew the person involved.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I think as a whole there is an increase in inexperienced people going onto the hills but this is only based on what I have seen over the last 20 years, no hard statistical evidence. I just see loads of people with very small rucksacks and inappropriate clothing. I met a couple the other day asking why there wasn't sign posts to the top of Scafell Pike. I told them they should really have map and compass. They had no idea they should be carrying them.
I think people need to be reeducated on the dangers, especially now that national park promotion has a much wider reach and much more people can travel too them. I would feel much happier seeing people walking properly kitted and not just thinking if they get in to trouble they can get a helicopter.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I think as a whole there is an increase in inexperienced people going onto the hills but this is only based on what I have seen over the last 20 years, no hard statistical evidence. I just see loads of people with very small rucksacks and inappropriate clothing. I met a couple the other day asking why there wasn't sign posts to the top of Scafell Pike. I told them they should really have map and compass. They had no idea they should be carrying them.
I think people need to be reeducated on the dangers, especially now that national park promotion has a much wider reach and much more people can travel too them. I would feel much happier seeing people walking properly kitted and not just thinking if they get in to trouble they can get a helicopter.
In reply to grizz:
Mountain Rescue in the UK gives a similar picture.
I think some need a warning as to where the accident black spots are.
Maybe some signage at the start of paths.
Mountain Rescue in the UK gives a similar picture.
I think some need a warning as to where the accident black spots are.
Maybe some signage at the start of paths.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
There are obviously some accident blackspots, but with the exception of Sharp Edge, haven't the fatalities in the Lakes been in fairly unusual spots this year?
> Mountain Rescue in the UK gives a similar picture.
>
> I think some need a warning as to where the accident black spots are.
>
> I think some need a warning as to where the accident black spots are.
There are obviously some accident blackspots, but with the exception of Sharp Edge, haven't the fatalities in the Lakes been in fairly unusual spots this year?
In reply to grizz:
I can't see why some basic outdoor education couldn't be built into key stage 3 (ie first three years of secondary school) geography. They already spend a considerable chunk of time teaching the children how to read maps, each is given a free map of their local area, it'd be good if they were taught to use a compass as well. And other aspects of safety on the hills could be part of PSHE lessons.
> I told them they should really have map and compass. They had no idea they should be carrying them.
>
> I think people need to be reeducated on the dangers
>
> I think people need to be reeducated on the dangers
I can't see why some basic outdoor education couldn't be built into key stage 3 (ie first three years of secondary school) geography. They already spend a considerable chunk of time teaching the children how to read maps, each is given a free map of their local area, it'd be good if they were taught to use a compass as well. And other aspects of safety on the hills could be part of PSHE lessons.
In reply to gingerkate: no, no need to encourage people to go who wouldn't otherwise. We weren't especially enouraged to go in the hills but my friends and I wanted to so started anyway aged 14 or so, and we lived in hertfordshire so it wasn't wasy to get there or anything. There's nothing noble bout climbing, it's just some fun
In reply to MattG:
Wasn't talking about encouraging them, was talking about teaching them how to be safe in the hills.
Wasn't talking about encouraging them, was talking about teaching them how to be safe in the hills.
In reply to gingerkate: my point was, though I put it not so well, that there's no point teaching people how to be safe in the hills who have no inclination to go there. It might be better to somehow empower organisations like the scouts to provide such training for those who are interested?
In reply to MattG:
I think the Govt PE/school sports philosophy fails to mesh with the Health care crisis planning necessary to survive millions of obese tw**s of the future. Our PE curriculum spends too much time on team sports requiring at least 21 others plus an infrastructure of leagues, pitches, maintenance, coaching .... whilst time spent in PE teaching walking in the hills/countryside, cycling for pleasure and competition, climbing, canoeing etc would allow people to develop a healthier lifestyle for the rest of their lives. If markers of invovlement were measured 10,20,30,40 years after leaving school which sports would people still participate in? How many footballers regularly play into their 30's, 40s or 50s? not many, I'd guess but how many people of these ages cycle, walk, sail, play golf (NOT USING BUGGIES!!!) etc?
I think the Govt PE/school sports philosophy fails to mesh with the Health care crisis planning necessary to survive millions of obese tw**s of the future. Our PE curriculum spends too much time on team sports requiring at least 21 others plus an infrastructure of leagues, pitches, maintenance, coaching .... whilst time spent in PE teaching walking in the hills/countryside, cycling for pleasure and competition, climbing, canoeing etc would allow people to develop a healthier lifestyle for the rest of their lives. If markers of invovlement were measured 10,20,30,40 years after leaving school which sports would people still participate in? How many footballers regularly play into their 30's, 40s or 50s? not many, I'd guess but how many people of these ages cycle, walk, sail, play golf (NOT USING BUGGIES!!!) etc?
In reply to andyhodges:
>Our PE curriculum spends too much time on team sports requiring at least 21 others plus an infrastructure of leagues, pitches, maintenance, coaching ....
Interesting point, I think that breaking down the inhibitors to doing sports is important but they apply to all sports in different ways.
My secondary school eventually allowed a small group of us to go road cycling during the once a week afternoon sports session. Later on I took up martial arts but when I moved to a new town it was difficult to find a martial arts group with the same style and that inhibited me pursuing it.
Mountain biking has been good but when I moved away from the mountains I had less opportunity to do it. Mountaineering was difficult to break into, it took years from first wanting to do it to getting the training, knowledge and building up the network of partners so I could do it regularly. The equipment and travel is expensive and it's very time consuming organising it.
Football and team sports in general are cheaper and more accessible, don't have to involve a lot of travel and are better organised.
>Our PE curriculum spends too much time on team sports requiring at least 21 others plus an infrastructure of leagues, pitches, maintenance, coaching ....
Interesting point, I think that breaking down the inhibitors to doing sports is important but they apply to all sports in different ways.
My secondary school eventually allowed a small group of us to go road cycling during the once a week afternoon sports session. Later on I took up martial arts but when I moved to a new town it was difficult to find a martial arts group with the same style and that inhibited me pursuing it.
Mountain biking has been good but when I moved away from the mountains I had less opportunity to do it. Mountaineering was difficult to break into, it took years from first wanting to do it to getting the training, knowledge and building up the network of partners so I could do it regularly. The equipment and travel is expensive and it's very time consuming organising it.
Football and team sports in general are cheaper and more accessible, don't have to involve a lot of travel and are better organised.
In reply to Anonymous:
Oh yeah, and team sports are better for developing interpersonal skills than climbing and canoeing which are ideal for self absorbed poor communicators who want to avoid negotiation and team work
Oh yeah, and team sports are better for developing interpersonal skills than climbing and canoeing which are ideal for self absorbed poor communicators who want to avoid negotiation and team work
In reply to Anonymous:
>Oh yeah, and team sports are better for developing interpersonal skills than climbing and canoeing which are ideal for self absorbed poor communicators who want to avoid negotiation and team work
Cobblers, thrice cobblers, engage brain and think about it.
>Oh yeah, and team sports are better for developing interpersonal skills than climbing and canoeing which are ideal for self absorbed poor communicators who want to avoid negotiation and team work
Cobblers, thrice cobblers, engage brain and think about it.
In reply to andyhodges: Spot on!
Ever since I looked at a load of Sport UK blurb about their main aims being to increase lifelong participation in sports I've been utterly confused about why they are still funding ALL THE WRONG SPORTS.
If that is truely their goal then the sports worth promoting most are those where all ages (e.g. grandparents and grandchildren) can fully participate together. In that case, walking/hill-walking, cycling, swimming, climbing, sailing, paddle sports and golf are the prime candidates.
None of the main team sports can really be considered 'life long' sports so it's no wonder that loads of people give up doing any sport when they leave school or get past their mid/late twenties.
Ever since I looked at a load of Sport UK blurb about their main aims being to increase lifelong participation in sports I've been utterly confused about why they are still funding ALL THE WRONG SPORTS.
If that is truely their goal then the sports worth promoting most are those where all ages (e.g. grandparents and grandchildren) can fully participate together. In that case, walking/hill-walking, cycling, swimming, climbing, sailing, paddle sports and golf are the prime candidates.
None of the main team sports can really be considered 'life long' sports so it's no wonder that loads of people give up doing any sport when they leave school or get past their mid/late twenties.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
The problem is you don't get medals for hillwalking or touring cycling even though they will keep people healthier than being a spectator at a football match.
The problem is you don't get medals for hillwalking or touring cycling even though they will keep people healthier than being a spectator at a football match.
In reply to andyhodges:
Absolutely. Also, it's worth noting that climbing/mountaineering appeals to a large cross section of people who would otherwise do no exercise. For example myself, there is no sport other than mountaineering which I would find interesting and absorbing enough mentally to be bothered to participate in.
Absolutely. Also, it's worth noting that climbing/mountaineering appeals to a large cross section of people who would otherwise do no exercise. For example myself, there is no sport other than mountaineering which I would find interesting and absorbing enough mentally to be bothered to participate in.
In reply to MattG:
That's like saying there's no point teaching them French as they may never go to France. Besides, learning to use a compass would be good for their maths skills. And PSHE is such a load of cobblers that it couldn't help but be enriched by including some survival skills.
> there's no point teaching people how to be safe in the hills who have no inclination to go there.
That's like saying there's no point teaching them French as they may never go to France. Besides, learning to use a compass would be good for their maths skills. And PSHE is such a load of cobblers that it couldn't help but be enriched by including some survival skills.
In reply to andyhodges:
Completely agree with you, but the trouble is, to play football/rugby/hockey at school all they need is a field. The posh schools do all the other sports you mention, because they've got the cash to do so.
Completely agree with you, but the trouble is, to play football/rugby/hockey at school all they need is a field. The posh schools do all the other sports you mention, because they've got the cash to do so.
In reply to gingerkate:
What is this obsession with encouraging people to experience the great outdoors who don't want to go there.
Ok, fair do's if you're an instructor and are making a few bob out of it but I can't think of anything worse than getting a group of chavs and showing them my favourite places - Goredale, Borrowdale, Dentdale etc etc
Same applies to climbers - if people want to go and clip some bolts at Foredale quarry surely Malham Right Wing will be quieter. This must be a good thing.
The Ent
What is this obsession with encouraging people to experience the great outdoors who don't want to go there.
Ok, fair do's if you're an instructor and are making a few bob out of it but I can't think of anything worse than getting a group of chavs and showing them my favourite places - Goredale, Borrowdale, Dentdale etc etc
Same applies to climbers - if people want to go and clip some bolts at Foredale quarry surely Malham Right Wing will be quieter. This must be a good thing.
The Ent
In reply to Enty:
Know your history Ents. The outdoors has been promoted for decades as character building and life changing - well before Outward Bound and the Duke of Edinburgh award.
Why do you think the tax payer partially funds the BMC?
It is of now of course promoted by the media to sell advertising and product.
> (In reply to gingerkate)
>
> What is this obsession with encouraging people to experience the great outdoors who don't want to go there.
>
> What is this obsession with encouraging people to experience the great outdoors who don't want to go there.
Know your history Ents. The outdoors has been promoted for decades as character building and life changing - well before Outward Bound and the Duke of Edinburgh award.
Why do you think the tax payer partially funds the BMC?
It is of now of course promoted by the media to sell advertising and product.
In reply to Enty:
Ha! If not for the grace of god, both you and I could be chavs, whatever they are, if we had not been introduced to the great outdoors.
Me by the Scouts, you by....?
> (In reply to gingerkate)
> Same applies to climbers - if people want to go and clip some bolts at Foredale quarry surely Malham Right Wing will be quieter. This must be a good thing.
Ha! If not for the grace of god, both you and I could be chavs, whatever they are, if we had not been introduced to the great outdoors.
Me by the Scouts, you by....?
In reply to sutty:
Yup. Unfortunately the government is always seeing it first and foremost in terms of media potential, and immediate commercial returns, rather than long term economic and general health benefits.
> (In reply to Mark Stevenson)
>
> The problem is you don't get medals for hillwalking or touring cycling even though they will keep people healthier than being a spectator at a football match.
>
> The problem is you don't get medals for hillwalking or touring cycling even though they will keep people healthier than being a spectator at a football match.
Yup. Unfortunately the government is always seeing it first and foremost in terms of media potential, and immediate commercial returns, rather than long term economic and general health benefits.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Myself.
Dad was footy mad and not the least bit interested in taking me to the lakes. I had to start bouldering on the pinnacle at Troy Quarry. Only place I could get to on foot. Then I started riding my bike to Brownstones - 50 mile round trip.
This was heartbreaking when the climbing mags were full of pics of Big Ron on Slender Loris and Andy Pollit on Tales of Yankee Power. Places a stones throw a way seemed like a million miles.
Stuck with it though and have been to some of the best places on earth..............
The Ent
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
> [...]
>
> Me by the Scouts, you by....?
> Me by the Scouts, you by....?
Myself.
Dad was footy mad and not the least bit interested in taking me to the lakes. I had to start bouldering on the pinnacle at Troy Quarry. Only place I could get to on foot. Then I started riding my bike to Brownstones - 50 mile round trip.
This was heartbreaking when the climbing mags were full of pics of Big Ron on Slender Loris and Andy Pollit on Tales of Yankee Power. Places a stones throw a way seemed like a million miles.
Stuck with it though and have been to some of the best places on earth..............
The Ent
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Is that the message the BMC delegation should give to 10 Downing Street?
> (In reply to sutty)
> [...]
>
> Yup. Unfortunately the government is always seeing it first and foremost in terms of media potential, and immediate commercial returns, rather than long term economic and general health benefits.
> [...]
>
> Yup. Unfortunately the government is always seeing it first and foremost in terms of media potential, and immediate commercial returns, rather than long term economic and general health benefits.
Is that the message the BMC delegation should give to 10 Downing Street?
In reply to Enty:
What inspired you/motivated you to start?
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Myself.
> Dad was footy mad and not the least bit interested in taking me to the lakes. I had to start bouldering on the pinnacle at Troy Quarry.
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Myself.
> Dad was footy mad and not the least bit interested in taking me to the lakes. I had to start bouldering on the pinnacle at Troy Quarry.
What inspired you/motivated you to start?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
It should certainly be mentioned, an audience of five billion couch potatoes watching the Olympics and then back to the Terraces does not lead to health, a large item on the governments agenda ATM.
It should certainly be mentioned, an audience of five billion couch potatoes watching the Olympics and then back to the Terraces does not lead to health, a large item on the governments agenda ATM.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Bizzarely enough, nothing. I just liked climbing. As a really young kid trees, the school roof, railway bridges etc
The Ent
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> What inspired you/motivated you to start?
> [...]
>
> What inspired you/motivated you to start?
Bizzarely enough, nothing. I just liked climbing. As a really young kid trees, the school roof, railway bridges etc
The Ent
In reply to Enty: Beinn Alligan after watching a Muriel Gray programme. Id been fishing around Gairloch so had an interest in any related programme. Next was a caving pull through down Simpsons. First rock climb would have been on Raven Crag in Langdale, first ice climb - Jacobs Ladder.
Always played footy though and even now we still use jumpers for goalposts at work for impromptue matches.
As for the OP. I dont think you can stop accidents, very tragic though it is. We cant be elitist and we cant be all pompous about it afterwards.
As for the fat facists, if it makes you feel better having a go at fat folk then you are pretty sad really.
Always played footy though and even now we still use jumpers for goalposts at work for impromptue matches.
As for the OP. I dont think you can stop accidents, very tragic though it is. We cant be elitist and we cant be all pompous about it afterwards.
As for the fat facists, if it makes you feel better having a go at fat folk then you are pretty sad really.
In reply to Enty:
Being a miserable sod I don't particularly want to encourage anyone to do anything, least of all go hillwalking, as I much prefer to find myself alone when I'm on the top of a hill. But being a human I'd prefer it if all the people who go hillwalking had lovely times and came down again safe. Obviously an awful lot of hillwalking accidents are just unlucky slips that will always happen and no amount of education can prevent, but apparently an increasing number of MR call outs are by people who would've been fine if they'd only had a map etc etc. So why not teach children how to look after themselves in the hills?
Being a miserable sod I don't particularly want to encourage anyone to do anything, least of all go hillwalking, as I much prefer to find myself alone when I'm on the top of a hill. But being a human I'd prefer it if all the people who go hillwalking had lovely times and came down again safe. Obviously an awful lot of hillwalking accidents are just unlucky slips that will always happen and no amount of education can prevent, but apparently an increasing number of MR call outs are by people who would've been fine if they'd only had a map etc etc. So why not teach children how to look after themselves in the hills?
In reply to grizz:
I just see loads of people with very small rucksacks and inappropriate clothing. I met a couple the other day asking why there wasn't sign posts to the top of Scafell Pike. I told them they should really have map and compass. They had no idea they should be carrying them.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I never cease to be amazed by people like that. So naive... I know of people who've walked up Snowdon in just sandals and with no waterproofs. Plain stupid.
I just see loads of people with very small rucksacks and inappropriate clothing. I met a couple the other day asking why there wasn't sign posts to the top of Scafell Pike. I told them they should really have map and compass. They had no idea they should be carrying them.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I never cease to be amazed by people like that. So naive... I know of people who've walked up Snowdon in just sandals and with no waterproofs. Plain stupid.
In reply to joshuahughes:
Fell runners or adventure racers?
> (In reply to grizz)
>
> I just see loads of people with very small rucksacks and inappropriate clothing.
>
> I just see loads of people with very small rucksacks and inappropriate clothing.
Fell runners or adventure racers?
In reply to joshuahughes:
I've walked up to 14,500ft in sandals carrying the rucksack of a 70 year old Japanese woman.
Plain fun.
It's not so much the clothes you wear, although what is in your pack is important, but knowing what you are actually doing, knowing where you are and what to do if something goes wrong.
> (In reply to grizz)
>
>So naive... I know of people who've walked up Snowdon in just sandals and with no waterproofs. Plain stupid.>
I've walked up to 14,500ft in sandals carrying the rucksack of a 70 year old Japanese woman.
Plain fun.
It's not so much the clothes you wear, although what is in your pack is important, but knowing what you are actually doing, knowing where you are and what to do if something goes wrong.
In reply to joshuahughes:
I know someone who has slogged up numerous Scottish hills fully equipped on glorious hot sunny days with not a cloud in the sky and no prospect of anything other than continued hot and sunny weather. Maybe not sandals but trainers and no waterproofs would have been be far better.
> I never cease to be amazed by people like that. So naive... I know of people who've walked up Snowdon in just sandals and with no waterproofs. Plain stupid.
I know someone who has slogged up numerous Scottish hills fully equipped on glorious hot sunny days with not a cloud in the sky and no prospect of anything other than continued hot and sunny weather. Maybe not sandals but trainers and no waterproofs would have been be far better.
In reply to tony:
Conversely, a certain RAF MR team slogged across Rannoch Moor in underpants and nailed boots, Cath Sullivan's dad was probably one of them.
Conversely, a certain RAF MR team slogged across Rannoch Moor in underpants and nailed boots, Cath Sullivan's dad was probably one of them.
In reply to gingerkate:
I've spent 15 years in an MR team, some of our callouts are from 'navigational misdirection' but an sizeable number are from what may be interpretted as less moral fibre - wet,cold, fed up but not in life threatening danger! Another growing amount are 'off hill' callouts - altzeimers etc basically helping the police out in fields etc, we've been told this will grow massively in the future. Mobiles also mean poeple can ask for help when in the past they'd manage for themselves.
Many kids groups we go out for are from local schools, the kids are fine but their teachers daren't leave them out if they overshoot their timeframes. Only this week we had a D of E callout where the kids were found in their tents absolutely fine -thye'd looked after themselves perfectly but the adults couldn't just leave them out there unaccounted for nowadays.
I've spent 15 years in an MR team, some of our callouts are from 'navigational misdirection' but an sizeable number are from what may be interpretted as less moral fibre - wet,cold, fed up but not in life threatening danger! Another growing amount are 'off hill' callouts - altzeimers etc basically helping the police out in fields etc, we've been told this will grow massively in the future. Mobiles also mean poeple can ask for help when in the past they'd manage for themselves.
Many kids groups we go out for are from local schools, the kids are fine but their teachers daren't leave them out if they overshoot their timeframes. Only this week we had a D of E callout where the kids were found in their tents absolutely fine -thye'd looked after themselves perfectly but the adults couldn't just leave them out there unaccounted for nowadays.
In reply to joshuahughes:
This seems to be a commonly held view, but according to the Scottish Mountain Rescue Committee it is not borne out in reality:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7600217.stm
This seems to be a commonly held view, but according to the Scottish Mountain Rescue Committee it is not borne out in reality:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7600217.stm
In reply to jonnie:
It's interesting the bit about a lot of call outs being for minor accidents when people are tired. I was reading an article about nutrition on the hill recently, and about how energy levels can plummet if you don't regularly snack, and about how people get clumsy when their energy levels go down.
It's interesting the bit about a lot of call outs being for minor accidents when people are tired. I was reading an article about nutrition on the hill recently, and about how energy levels can plummet if you don't regularly snack, and about how people get clumsy when their energy levels go down.
In reply to andyhodges:
Are the call outs from people who're just wet, cold, fed up but basically ok on the increase then? If so, would you put that down to mobile phones?
Are the call outs from people who're just wet, cold, fed up but basically ok on the increase then? If so, would you put that down to mobile phones?
In reply to gingerkate:
Probably regional, seems the Lakes still has lots of slips on wet grass (poor footwear choice?) but a mobile certainly allows people to call for help when they may have sorted themselves out 10 years ago (or just been late!). There are stories of people phoning for help because they are overdue - not injured or lost in the Lakes this seems quite well reported. Down here (Dartmoor) people underestimate the complexity of nav (sometimes) - lots harder than a motorway path in the Lake for example and fairly featureless in poor vis. Many people seem to think MR is a free service - its does cost - thousands a year to exist as a team but the people calling out maybe don't realise we are very different from the Fire Brigade for example. Interesting the above article states another £300K from Scottish parliment - English (?British??) Govt has refused a petition to do this for England and Wales. Keep shaking those tins MRE&W!!!!!
Probably regional, seems the Lakes still has lots of slips on wet grass (poor footwear choice?) but a mobile certainly allows people to call for help when they may have sorted themselves out 10 years ago (or just been late!). There are stories of people phoning for help because they are overdue - not injured or lost in the Lakes this seems quite well reported. Down here (Dartmoor) people underestimate the complexity of nav (sometimes) - lots harder than a motorway path in the Lake for example and fairly featureless in poor vis. Many people seem to think MR is a free service - its does cost - thousands a year to exist as a team but the people calling out maybe don't realise we are very different from the Fire Brigade for example. Interesting the above article states another £300K from Scottish parliment - English (?British??) Govt has refused a petition to do this for England and Wales. Keep shaking those tins MRE&W!!!!!
In reply to gingerkate:
On a meet there was someone stumbling along and was noticed by another in the party. seemed they had put their water bottle in their sack and were unwilling to stop and get it out for a drink. After being given a drink they returned to normal, dehydration was the problem, and that was in winter. We did the 4000 in the Cairngorms and when we got down each drank three pints of tea, and the no sugar people had sugar in to get levels back to normal.
On a meet there was someone stumbling along and was noticed by another in the party. seemed they had put their water bottle in their sack and were unwilling to stop and get it out for a drink. After being given a drink they returned to normal, dehydration was the problem, and that was in winter. We did the 4000 in the Cairngorms and when we got down each drank three pints of tea, and the no sugar people had sugar in to get levels back to normal.
In reply to joshuahughes:
Joshua
I regularly go out on the the hills in just trainers, shorts and a t-shirt, in summer. It's not a problem. I don't even carry a map, and i don't think i need one. Also i'm often out on my own especially if it's for 4 hours or more. Am i being naive?
Joshua
I regularly go out on the the hills in just trainers, shorts and a t-shirt, in summer. It's not a problem. I don't even carry a map, and i don't think i need one. Also i'm often out on my own especially if it's for 4 hours or more. Am i being naive?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
From BBC news today
You can't assume on the ability of people. I went up blencathra in jeans and trainers last year but the pressure reading that morning was 1031mb. I got a lot of bad looks. However on the day I was referring too there were a lot of people in jeans and trainers whilst the lakes was under a big low. That strikes me as being people who don't know what they are letting themselves in for.
Report this morning on BBC
The Wasdale rescue team were called in the early hours of Saturday morning in atrocious weather to Piers Gill on Scafell Pike.
The two men were eventually found stranded near the top of the Gill.
A spokesman for the rescuers said too many people are trying to climb the fell without the right equipment.
From BBC news today
You can't assume on the ability of people. I went up blencathra in jeans and trainers last year but the pressure reading that morning was 1031mb. I got a lot of bad looks. However on the day I was referring too there were a lot of people in jeans and trainers whilst the lakes was under a big low. That strikes me as being people who don't know what they are letting themselves in for.
Report this morning on BBC
The Wasdale rescue team were called in the early hours of Saturday morning in atrocious weather to Piers Gill on Scafell Pike.
The two men were eventually found stranded near the top of the Gill.
A spokesman for the rescuers said too many people are trying to climb the fell without the right equipment.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Generally fell runners are well educated on the dangers of the hills, but I have noticed an increase in advertising of trail running activities and kit which might bring a new group of people onto the hills who haven't had a fell running introduction. So who knows what will happen.
Generally fell runners are well educated on the dangers of the hills, but I have noticed an increase in advertising of trail running activities and kit which might bring a new group of people onto the hills who haven't had a fell running introduction. So who knows what will happen.
In reply to grizz:
Ho Ho - just reread my bit form Saturady, later on that night called out for two 20 odd year olds on Dartmoor - no map, no compass, no torch, no whistle....but a mobile to call 999 luckily! I am part of Hasty team so we ran out in their direction - light clothing (but good torch, map, GPS whistle, radio).
How will we ever get any message through to poeple if not by education? Any one going out into wild areas ought to have been taught the real basics at school (i'm a teacher too so have a foot in both camps), some may say I have a vested inteterst in taking group out in my working day!
Ho Ho - just reread my bit form Saturady, later on that night called out for two 20 odd year olds on Dartmoor - no map, no compass, no torch, no whistle....but a mobile to call 999 luckily! I am part of Hasty team so we ran out in their direction - light clothing (but good torch, map, GPS whistle, radio).
How will we ever get any message through to poeple if not by education? Any one going out into wild areas ought to have been taught the real basics at school (i'm a teacher too so have a foot in both camps), some may say I have a vested inteterst in taking group out in my working day!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I'll tell you what message to give to them...No, on second thoughts, I don't want to be banned!
> Is that the message the BMC delegation should give to 10 Downing Street?
I'll tell you what message to give to them...No, on second thoughts, I don't want to be banned!
In reply to joshuahughes:
I'm always tempted to run up Glyder Fawr and ask 'is this Snowdon' just to see the response.
I wouldn't judge safety by the size of someone's rucksack. With new gear you can easily fit all you'd need in a 10L sack.
We've had people shake their heads at us as we run past, especially times when I've ran up in the snow in just my shorts and a wind smock, but generally people are fine and we get positive comments.
> (In reply to grizz)
>
> I just see loads of people with very small rucksacks and inappropriate clothing. I met a couple the other day asking why there wasn't sign posts to the top of Scafell Pike. I told them they should really have map and compass. They had no idea they should be carrying them.
>
>
> I just see loads of people with very small rucksacks and inappropriate clothing. I met a couple the other day asking why there wasn't sign posts to the top of Scafell Pike. I told them they should really have map and compass. They had no idea they should be carrying them.
>
I'm always tempted to run up Glyder Fawr and ask 'is this Snowdon' just to see the response.
I wouldn't judge safety by the size of someone's rucksack. With new gear you can easily fit all you'd need in a 10L sack.
We've had people shake their heads at us as we run past, especially times when I've ran up in the snow in just my shorts and a wind smock, but generally people are fine and we get positive comments.
In reply to IainRUK:
"We've had people shake their heads at us as we run past, especially times when I've ran up in the snow in just my shorts and a wind smock"
Wot! No shoes? Seriously tho,I know the feeling. Had many worrying looks and comments at my lack of attire whilst trg on the Ben. Especially on a summers evening, circa 7pm, when I meet most peeps on their way down and I'm just going up!
p
"We've had people shake their heads at us as we run past, especially times when I've ran up in the snow in just my shorts and a wind smock"
Wot! No shoes? Seriously tho,I know the feeling. Had many worrying looks and comments at my lack of attire whilst trg on the Ben. Especially on a summers evening, circa 7pm, when I meet most peeps on their way down and I'm just going up!
p
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