UKH

Hi everyone,

I had a wardrobe clear-out today and decided that my climbing harness should go. I was thinking about giving it away it but I seem to remember a bit of debate about the safety of using  an old harness.

It's about 20 years old I would say its slightly worn mainly used indoors where it took one lead fall of about 4m (I'm about 85kg).  It's been stored indoors in its bag either in a box or a wardrobe for much of the last two decades out of direct sun.

I would happily still climb on it but that may not be enough.... What do people think?

Thanks,

Paul

Shelf life for soft gear like ropes, slings, harnesses etc is generally reckoned to be about 8-10 years - and less with wear. I certainly wouldn't want to climb on someone's 20 year old, worn, unknown harness.

Chop the belay loop to prevent it from being used, then either drop it in the recycling boxes that some gear shops (e.g. Cotswold) provide, or bin it.

Loads of shops have bins for recycling old climbing gear. It usually gets "upcycled" and turned into belts etc. 

Whilst I might be happy to use my own harness at that age with known storage and usage history, it's well outside the manufacturers recommended lifespan. Time to retire it.

As suggested above, there are places you can donate for recycling. Or I've seen people cut off the leg loops, then use just the belt to add weights for training.

I wouldn't climb on someone else's old harness but they are useful for adding weight when hangboarding as mentioned above. 

I wouldn't normally bother but, as my comment was fairly factual, I'm curious about the downvotes. What am I missing?

I'll be swimming against the tide a bit here, but I'd say that as long as you're accurately and honestly describing its history then whether or not to climb on it would be a decision for the person who takes it off your hands.

People are saying they'd climb on it if they'd had it themselves from new but not otherwise, or that they wouldn't climb on a harness that old at all - that's all completely fine, nobody is asking them to. 

And as suggested above, somebody might be quite grateful to take it off your hands to use for (eg) weighted pull-ups instead of climbing.

I would stick it in a 'for sale' post on here, priced as 'free' but perhaps +P&P if you can be arsed to post it.

This is the problem with downvotes, I can see nothing wrong with what you said, but have these people noticed something that could be safety related.

I just turn them off.

My concern with giving it away is that the people most likely to interested in free gear are beginners who don't have the depth of knowledge to understand or risk assess the lifespan (real versus manufacturers recommended) of safety critical kit.

Many thanks for all the replies - much appreciated.

Have decided that I'll take it to the recycling at Cotswolds in Covent Garden as its only round the corner from work.

Now what am I going to too with the 'biner and belay plate ... lol 

I down voted your post as it lacked factual basis and was opinion.

Whilst the manufacturers recommendations are clear regarding the maximum design life of gear, actual test data has shown little to no deterioration in properly stored, climbing gear, when it exhibits low wear.

The second part of your post was opinion. 

"I certainly wouldn't want to climb on someone's 20 year old, worn, unknown harness." 

And the third,

"Chop the belay loop to prevent it from being used, then either drop it in the recycling boxes that some gear shops (e.g. Cotswold) provide, or bin it."

is paternalistic and patronising and could be seen as you credulously over applying manufacturers recommendations without fully reviewing the available evidence. Worse you are applying your own personal choice to others in the manner of a supermarket pouring bleach on products after their best before date or slashing unsold clothing to prevent "freecyclers" getting it out the skip.

Even the extreme 'nanny state' end of UKC opinion shouldn't have a problem with you passing those on to someone who can make use of them. 

Unless it's an original ATC and you give it to someone who might be fool enough to use it with a slick, skinny modern single rope, in which case it would be a shocking act of negligence on your part not smashing it to bits with a sledge hammer or something and chucking it in the bin!  (Also lol.)

Absolutely.

Assuming there are no sharp edges old school belay devices are pretty much indestructible, only downside is that with thinner modern ropes they can be a bit slick. Same with krabs, no sharp edges and gate still working it's safe to use, maybe a bit heavy for most climbers liking but handy for a spare or to use at the wall.

Metal ware is generally not considered to have a set maximum lifespan, it's soft goods (harnesses, ropes, slings, helmets) which deteriorate even when stored unused in perfect conditions. How much they deteriorate being a subject of much debate, as you can see from the replies to this thread. 

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I know of at least 1 MRT that have begun to expire their carabiners after 10 years regardless of use. The same thing that has happened to soft goods within industry is coming to metalware as well. According to the manufacturer, one of my harnesses it will last "up to 1 year" if used weekly. In my opinion, it has gone too far but it is what it is. Expect to see metal carabiners with manufacturer recommended lifespans soon.

Also for inspecting yourself before use, along with sharp edges and gate function you will be looking for percentage wear and fractures. Gate need to spring back from all positions.

Goodness me, that's a bit harsh. The poor chap just ventured his opinion, in response to a question that was asked. You might disagree with that opinion, but there's no need to jump down his throat!

FWIW I probably wouldn't choose to climb in a 20 year harness that I knew nothing about either.

It's precisely the response that was quite specifically asked for, no more, no less.

People often ask why they got a down vote on here and it's an extremely rare occasion when somebody de-lurks and honestly answers the question with complete clarity.

Edit to add:

Unless you're calling the OP a liar, there is nothing unknown about the history of this particular harness.

It is possible to answer a question with complete clarity, and indeed provide a contrary opinion, using less aggressive language than Brown did. In fact, I would argue it's better to do so, as people take you more seriously.

The OP said, "I was thinking about giving it away". Presumably he wasn't intending on giving a full breakdown of its usage to the new owner, so I think my point is relevant.

Indeed, I would double down on it, because a few years ago I retired my own 20ish year old harness. It was "probably fine". But I think spending fifty or so quid every 20ish years on something that really cannot fail seems like a reasonable compromise between wanting to extract maximum usage out of something, and wanting to be safe. (I have been using it as a handy weight-belt for the fingerboard, as others have mentioned, so it's not going to waste).

Again, just my opinion, feel free to disagree!

Why on earth would you assume that he wouldn't intend to be completely candid, open and honest about it when he already gave us all a full breakdown of it in his post just right up there^.  It really is tantamount to calling the OP a liar, though I can't imagine what his motivation could possibly be for not disclosing its full history to someone taking it off his hands for nowt, and strikes me as quite insulting actually.  Which is ironic while you're upbraiding another poster for his supposed bluntness in merely giving an honest answer to a direct question.

I imagine someone like Petzl or other have done tests on old fabric slings and harnesses? Perhaps a link to this would help solve the question.

Some breaking strain analysis on old dyneema slings

https://services.alpenverein.de/chameleon/public/1710c3f7-77d8-c1dd-d63b-f6...

Oh dear! Sounds as though I should retire my old, furry, hawser-laid nylon slings I got in 1966. Drat!

Dan Middleton did a very memorable demonstration at a Peak area BMC meeting about a decade back. Two brand new slings were tested for breaking strain after modification. The first was cut half across its width, the second was rubbed vigorously on some rough gritstone across it's full width for a number of seconds. Both failed at about the same level, about half of that of a new sling.

Old harnesses with thin and furry belay loops worry me most. Harness failure has happened and the BMC explained it's concerns (as all strands in webbing come to the surface): belay loops in particular need to be monitored:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/todd-skinner-killed-in-climbing-accident

I've snapped UV damaged webbing abseil tat in my hands in the US. In contrast tests on rope tat exposed to UV show much lower risk, as the sheath protects the core.

Yep, I see your point, well made. 

Was that really your only thought about what I wrote? That I'm credulous and the gear manufacturers are, in effect, lying? As others have said upthread, soft gear degrades over time, and wear and degradation is difficult to assess - especially in the absence of knowledge about its use.

Granted. But the OP specifically asked "What do people think?"

We're taking about safety-critical PPE, not out of date sandwiches or end of line clothes. It is common practice to render PPE unusable when retiring it - precisely to stop anyone who may find it, but is unaware of its history, from using it. For example this* is Petzl's "Guidelines for retiring your equipment" which states "harnesses: cut the belay loop or the webbing at the metal ring". And if you think this is overkill, I recall a post on UKC a few years ago by a novice climber who had bought a used ex-army climbing harness (on ebay, I think) that had been chopped for disposal and wanted to know if it was safe to use.

A polite suggestion to end: go and read about the "principle of charity" - which is where you default to trying, where possible, to interpret other people's words as rational, coherent, and made in good-faith. The net (and UKC) would be a lot better place if people bore that in mind.

* https://petzl.my.salesforce.com/sfc/p/#20000000HrHq/a/5I0000004MGh/dHgHpxA5...

I'd say the difference in this case between direct and aggressive perhaps has more to do with opinion on the topic than Brown's reply, which fwiw, I thought was clear, dispassionate and unusual in that they did actually respond as requested re. the downvote.

Eh? A pretty clear summary of its usage and storage is included above.

jk