UKH

Er... go Wales? 

Aye - go (home roundly stuffed) Wales 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 

Listened to most of it on the drive north - amazing how reception has improved through the Drumochter pass over the last few years! But a miserable outcome

To be fair Wales played with some spirit againist a really good team.

Personally quite encouraged by Scotland vs England, just need to stop giving the ball to the big unit on the wing!

One advantage of listening to it on the radio as opposed to watching it on ITV is that you don't have to suffer those Lawrence Dallaglio Motorway adverts.
 

Similarly for the Scotland game, radio meant no Dylan Hartley on the commentary.

I didn't have high hopes for Scotland's chances today so am delighted with the result. A bonus point try would've been nice though 

They did. It’s the story of Wales’ tournament so far; plenty to take into next week. 

Way too many errors. Ford passing into shoulders, Lawrence came back way too early and played a kind of anti man of the match role. Not taking away from Russell and The Saffa in any way but that speed and power in blitz needs to be tempered with a degree of accuracy. 
 

I enjoyed watching Scotland win today, but they fed (very well) off of scraps provided. 

Is Duhan van de merwe a traditional Scottish name ? I wonder what his tartan looks like ?

agree - what was it 20 odd handling errors for the Hype? I think the second scotland try which seemed to come from good English defensive efforts resulting in broken play I'd 'allow' but the first and third were created by English incompetence - albeit wolfishly capitalised upon by the Scots

I'm very pleased that Scotland won, but all these foreign imports in rugby does seem a little bit daft to me.

It is legal and we sort of have to accept it if we want to continue accepting that, for example, Fijian or Tongan citizens who first choose to play for All Blacks can subsequently donate their talent back to their country of birth. Same package. 

indeed - although at least its nice to have some family link - like the Millar-Mills family!

I think the residency rules in rugby are nonsensical and feel it allows countries bring players over for clubs with the aim of introducing them for country.

For some reason people like Dunc56 often raise this issue but only with regards to Scotland. Never towards England, Wales, Ireland or France (just referencing 6 nations teams). Perhaps just because van der Merwe is so good!

It would make more sense if they had never been allowed to play for the All Blacks in the first place if they are Fijian or Tongan.

up to a point - and inevitably on the edge cases the concern around 'mercenary' players will arise

Oh I think plenty of folk have whinged about Manu, Mako, Billy, Mike, Talupe, etc etc - usualy as you say, its when ther is a good player involved!

Sometimes I think you are from Yorkshire

Well I very much support Scotland and I genuinely feel that having a South African as a star player scoring all the tries detracts from the "Scottish" victory. But it seems all the teams are at it. 

Why?

The majority of pasifika players were either born in NZ, or moved over from a young age for a 'better life' with their parents. If you go into Auckland you soon realise how big a population of islanders are there. In fact, most of the pacific island nations benefit from the NZ and Australian school systems with players returning to their 'home' nation if they don't quite make the NZ or Aus standard. Sure, there are exceptions where pacific island players are brought over into super rugby contracts, but I remember seeing a statistic about 10 years ago saying that in the 1000+ ABs who had ever been capped, only about 30 were born in the islands. Even the late great Jonah Lomu was born in Auckland, although most people think of him as a Tongan import. 

Famously (or perhaps not) Yorkshire Cricket Club used to have a policy that you had to be be born within the county to be eligible to play. Many tales of Yorkshire men rushing their expectant wives to the county in order to allow their progeny the chance of playing for God's own Cricket team.

Thanks for the explanation. Do these islanders have dual citizenship then?

It strikes me that eligibility should simply be on citizenship. Though that obviously doesn't work for the UK nations.

https://www.world.rugby/organisation/governance/regulations/reg-8

Some nonsensical bedtime reading for you.
A player may represent a national team of a country in which: 

(a) the Player was born; or 

(b) one parent or grandparent was born; or

(c) the Player has completed sixty [1]consecutive months of Residence immediately preceding the time of playing; or

(d) the Player has completed ten years of cumulative Residence preceding the time of playing. 

The only point I’d make is that these laws have been ‘unanimously’ challenged and poked around around since before the game went professional. 

What I find extraordinary is that there is absolutely nothing there about actual nationality!

The Vunipola brothers moved over as kids, slightly different to adult imports. Some will still take issue with that.

As always the BBC comments section for the match report made for fascinating reading. 

Why does that really matter though Bob?  Surely it's a much more modern take on planetary living to accept that if you've no longer played for one country for 3 years, and moved to another for 60 months, or have a grandparent etc. then you should be allowed to play for the country you live in?

It evens up the field a bit, given the massive disparity in talent pools the different countries have. I'm all for it.

I don’t mind it either. 
Reading about the journey (from his perspective) that Tuipolotu had to take alone to break down a door that was slightly ajar shows resilience and worldliness of the highest order. 

Well obviously it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but I feel it does make a bit of a mockery of the whole premise of national teams and international sport.

they will be dancing in the streets of western cape tonight

.

Love it , people like dunc56. Then proceeds to tell me what my prejudices are based on one sentence. Oh dear, oh dear. 

As an Englishman who has been pretty uninspired by the performances over recent years I actually thought this match was quite good from an English perspective. Obviously giving the ball to Van de Merwe is not the best game plan (what a finisher!) but if you put aside the errors and panic which should be ironed out over the next few games, there was a lot to enjoy. Always gutting to lose to Scotland but they deserved it in their ability to take the points when on offer (be that Van de Merwe or Russell!)

I wonder if this is because thd rules evolved really for the genuine problem of deciding on qualification for the home UK nations. The problem (as I see it) then being that the rules are made a nonsense of to import foreigners from outside the UK.

Of course if everyone could be trusted to align themselves with the nationality that they actually "feel" there wouldn't be an issue.

And I wonder if there are players of genuine nationality who feel somewhat aggrieved to miss out on a place in their national side to a foreign import.

The best way to deal with those sort of feelings is to keep watching the clips of vdM scything through defences to score. I find that negative feelings evaporate in the face of such joy.

I might give that a go later😃

I agree. The news reports I’ve seen, mostly the Guardian, make it sound very one sided which was not my perception while watching the game. I thought England looked pretty good and as a Scot I found the whole game pretty bum-squeaking. England were certainly not the struggling, overwhelmed side they were made out to be, and losing by 9 points is hardly a drubbing.

I’m disappointed in France who are having a poor tournament. Scotland aren’t the second worst team any more so it’s maybe less surprising that the score was so close but Italy still are the runt of the litter and they should have won that, and Francophile that I am, I wish they had. That’s two games France have won by the skin of their teeth purely due to luck. 

Robert... if they are that desperate to play for Scotalnd I think you should embrace them as one of your own!

Isn't Robert English?

As it was a Penalty, shouldn't the clock have been re-set as the French players clearly moved towards the ball before it was kicked.

Desperate to play for Scotland or just desperate to play international rugby, didn't rate his chances of making the South Africa team and so sold his soul to the highest bidding top tier nation?

I don't know Robert's family history or place of birth but I believe he passes (c) and (d)!

Obviously different countries have different nationality laws, some more restrictive and some more relaxed than others. So world rugby needs a standard set of qualifying requirements.  

Now that the residency requirements has been extended from 3 to 5 years, the regulations are actually pretty close to British nationality laws (other than qualification through a grandparent) where 5 years legal residence in the UK is essentially the qualifying period to be able to apply for nationality    

https://www.theoffsideline.com/six-nations-duhan-van-der-merwe/
 

From the horse’s mouth ?

I pass (b), (c) and (d) for Scotland and (a) and (b) for England. And, absurdly, for India on (b). I suppose I feel a bit English, more Scottish and more again British. I really don't think I could imagine representing England in any sport though in the infinitessimaly unlikely event I were selected.

I don't think that need necessarily be true; taking   citizenship might be an appropriate test of commitment.

Fair enough. But I wonder what he would have done had he got an offer from SA at the same time as Scotland. I'd still prefer him to be able to say he felt Scottish with hand on heart. Maybe he does.

He's such a fibber isn't he  

"When I came over in 2017, there was never the thought of playing for Scotland because the only thing I could think about was playing for Edinburgh"

Possibly, I tend not to embroil myself in arguments against refereeing decisions unless it was a recent Scotland vs France game or involves the now thankfully retired Craig Joubert.

Edit/correction to my earlier post, that is not two games France have won by luck and the skin of their teeth, its two games they haven't lost.

Is Bundee Aki a traditional Irish name ? I wonder if he dresses like a leprechaun?

Is Billy Vinupola a traditional English name ? I wonder if he does Morris dancing ?
 

Is Taulupe Faletau a traditional Welsh name ? I bet he eats leeks after he’s been down the pit?
 

Or is it only the Scottish “ imports “ you have an issue with ?

What is your definition of "genuine nationality"?

The guy has lived in Scotland for the last 8 years. Despite the accent, I'd say he's got more claim to represent Scotland than me, having been born and spent my first two and a half decades in Scotland, but lived outside it for most of the last 20 years.

He'll have some Scottish dna. Everybody has.

I think you have to accept legal citizenship (though rugby appears not do do as such!). Otherwise the nationality you, hand on heart, feel (could be more than one) - needed for the UK nations at least.

I've no way of knowing whether you or Van de Merwe feels more Scottish.

I really don't think residency on its own by any means should necessarily suffice. As for country of birth, let alone that of parents or grandparents, this is clearly daft on its own (the fact that I am eligible to play rugby for India is plainly ludicrous).

In reply to 

Good job DVDM wasn't playing in the scrum.

youtube.com/watch?v=_HfGGFqG6po&

Van de Merwe got one very timely offload and one very favourable bounce, that's like pretty lucky really. But he did make the most of the opportunities 

Legal citizenship applies to the whole of the UK, which is clearly of no use in the context of the 6 Nations, in which 4 of the competing nations are constituent countries of the UK. 

Legal citizenship is just the ability to meet set criteria, which varies country to country. By setting their own criteria, rugby creates a level playing field for how easy it is to qualify for a country. If they accepted citizenship, foreigners with enough spare cash and no connection to the country could play for Malta tomorrow.

You can't base your criteria on how someone feels.

Yes. That is why legal citizenship is insufficient for sport where the UK nations operate separately. If it were not for the UK anomaly (there may be others), nothing more would necessarily be needed.

Fair point. Maybe a combination of residency and citizenship then - would require a more comprehensive level of commitment to be be demonstrated. 

That is just an ideal to aim for. I don't think residency, let alone the daft birth place stuff, is good enough. I agree there are no easy answers.

Perhaps some version of the Tebbit cricket test done under hypnosis or with lie detection.

Football seems to have worked things out much better. Loads of top players play and live abroad but still play for their own country (though there is some daft grandmother birth place stuff  going on within the UK). If Van de Merwe were a footballer I am sure he would be playing internationally for SA or not at all. Rugby seems to have made a mess of things in comparison.

Lots of the current SA test team play in Europe.

Some Rugby authorities (England, Wales a bit, not Scotland) stipulate that  you must play in their national league to be considered for selection. Others (SA) are entierly relaxed about where you play.

I think the real evidence for loyalty to a chosen country is what happens when players retire. Most seem to go home..ie. back to S Africa or wherever. I'm not comfortable with mercenaries being recruited but it's the same with all countries. 

In athletics, a lot of Benelux and Nordic runners (and other places but not IMO so noticeably) seem to have spent their first and formative years in African countries.

I think there is an easy answer - if you want to make a life somewhere, whether for a few years or permanently, you're entitled to represent that country if you desire to.

I'm not sure referencing the views of famous right wing xenophobe The Chingford Skinhead is the best way to advance your argument.

I used to think along those lines, but I now feel that was bourne out of old fashioned (xenophobic) nationalist thinking on my part.

If you live in Scotland, but you can't play for Scotland, you are being "othered"; excluded from paying a full part in the country you currently call home on the basis of your past identity.

Why should I care if you still have another nationality that you hold dear and might want to play for in different circumstances. You live in Scotland, you pay taxes in Scotland, you vote in Scotland, you should be able to represent Scotland.

Civic nationalism is a challenge to feelings of identity but a much more healthy outlook IMO.

Tempted to ignore you but have bitten. 
 

These sort of comments are typical of someone who has clearly never played the game (and possibly any team sport). Rugby at this level is about split second decisions and handling, much of which Scotland did brilliantly. So ‘one timely offload’ is the sort of thing that wins matches. As for the ‘lucky bounce’, look at the kick. Fly half practice this. Spiral kicks backwards to bounce up, sideways to go into touch and forward to bounce awkwardly for the opposition. Scotland took the chances given to them a created many others. They won.

Luck favours the prepared. And the talented.

I mean, how good is Finn Russell ? Did you hear him say his kick % was 100 for Scotland but for bath it's 60 odd  

Birdy Num Num lives in 1966, with regular long weekends to 1945. 

dunc56: Russell is something special. Talking of special fly halves, George Ford's drop goal was magnificent. 

So Haaland for England, and Kane for Germany! 

If they wanted to switch allegiance, why not?

I'd like to see the whole world become a bit more like the EU where people are free to travel, work, fall in love, vote, set up home, stand for election and fully immerse themselves in their new country. 

I don't see why representing the country (if you want to) in something you're good at shouldn't be part of that.

Then it becomes a club sport, you can buy the best team, and anthems can be done away with.

Yep. That's right.

and to the chappie above you. Yes I have played rugby. It was still a very timely offload, and a very favourable bounce. Even van de Merwe said that.

You're just evading the point here. Suppose we could ask Van de Merwe who he would support if Scotland were playing SA in the football world cup final and get an honest answer. I think that would be a reasonable way of determining whether or not he should be playing rugby for Scotland.

You are basically saying that all meaningful international sport should be scrapped on the grounds that it promotes  xenophobia. Fair enough, but the counterargument is that international sport is the perfect outlet for nationalist feelings if done in the right spirit (as rugby usually is). 

Sorry, but I think this is absolute nonsense; you can play for your own country if you are good enough.

Probably good enough to have moved to, maybe, New Zealand to give himself a decent chance of lifting the world cup.

Because Haaland is Norwegian and Kane is English. It really is that simple.

I actually suspect that football has not gone down the farcical road that rugby is in danger of taking  because the club game is so big; the top players can have a massive profile and play at the top level by selling themselves to top clubs whereas in rugby all the attention is on the international game - that is where all glamour is.

Precisely. The beauty of international sport is that you play for your own country - that is the source of the passion. At the moment I can still support Scotland with a sprinkling of foreign players but if it became a total free for all I am sure I would lose interest.

I think it is very different with individual sports. Unlike with a single national team I don't have to root for an individual running under a flag of convenience; others can still compete and I can root for them. They are not having their place taken by a foreigner.

I sometimes think that the Olympics would actually be better restricted to individual sports without people competing under a national flag and with anthems and so on.

Worth noting that Haaland was born in Leeds and lived his first few years there. The English FA maybe missed an opportunity!

you'll love this one - 

 Kevin-Prince and Jerome Boateng - 2010 world cup - played against each other in a game - Germany vs Ghana  

Did they swap sides at half time?

<cough> Zola Budd <cough>

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zola_Budd#Arrival_in_Britain for those who weren't aware of or have forgotten the shenanigans that enabled her to avoid the South African sporting boycott.)

Emma Raducanu

Mo Farah 

Greg Rudetsky

I am sure there are loads more. It's a tricky one. 

I don't think there is anything tricky about either of them. They are British citizens who have been in the UK from a young age and there is no reason to believe they do not feel British.

The issue is with those moving to another country in order to further their international career under a flag of convenience.

Zola Budd was an inspiration for the way that the USA's darling Mary Decker managed to trip over her - one of the highlights of those Olympics, especially the way she had to be carried into a news conference - aww, didums.

In Athletics I have sympathy for say the 4th best Kenyan runner moving to Bahrain, he might be the 4th best in the World but can't get a look in at home.

Yes, as I said, I have a lot more sympathy with individual sports where someone is not so much representing a country as themselves. It has always seemed wrong to me that if the best eight 100m runners in the world are all American or the best eight 10000m runners all Kenyan that only half of them can be in the Olympic final. 

If you ever get a chance to see the footage, look at it carefully. Decker appears to have two goes at tripping Budd up, and then on the third attempt gets it all wrong and Decker is the one that comes off worst. Not surprising really, a couple of years earlier, Decker threw a baton at a rival international team member when she got beaten. Nasty piece of work really.