In reply to Anonymous:
> (In reply to Rob Naylor)
> [...]
I answered these points on the previous thread about this, referenced above. You weren't able to refute my answers properly then, so why trot out the same old discredited arguments again?
> The style and exposure of The Needle is light years different from these gullies and is far more serious and intimidating now and then.
er, I don't recall Needle Ridge being a gully?
And East Jordan climb, which H-S did in 1882, isn't a gully either. It's given MVS today.
You said in our previous exchange that H-S could only do these climbs because he was "part of a strong team". I pointed out that (a) this "strong team" consisted of his younger brother, and (b) in any event, these climbs were soloed since the Haskett-Smith brothers didn't start using a rope until the late 1880s.
I said also (my comment on the previous thread) "H-S later put up several Severes (eg North Climb with Slingsby)which were certainly fully witnessed by others."
> [...]
> nb. he followed Slinsby et al up those routes.
You said this, too, in the previous thread. Then, as now, I pointed out that Haskett-Smith appears first in many of the listed climbs, which is an indication of the leader. I also pointed out before that in the list for one climb of a comparable standard (I forget which...it's on the other thread), attributed to H-S and Oppenheimer, it's explicitly stated that "Oppenheimer led the cave pitch". Why would this have been noted, if Oppenheimer'd also led the other pitches?
You never came back with any evidence at all that H-S hadn't led these routes, yet you still continue to assert that he followed others up them . Evidence please?
> [...]
> The article was written long after the first ascent after Haskett Smith had followed others up the route.
er, funny, you state in the other thread that H-S only ever made one other ascent, as an old man, on the 50th anniversary of his first ascent. A few "variable facts" going here, methinks.
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> No-one ever saw the handkerchief and the 'pruberence' would have been noticed on subsequent ascents when he followed others up the route
See above he his repeat of the route.
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> HOW COME HE COULDNT EVEN REMEMBER THE DATE HE CLIMBED THE ROUTE? I am sure that a route of this nature would be endelibly etched on the memory of any climber. A check with the met. office would probably reveal very poor weather at the time?!
Several top climbers in more recent times (Joe Brown, for example) have been quite vague about the exact dates of some of their new routes.
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> - I never said I didn't like him just that I doubt his claims. - The other information just goes to further underline the doubt.
No, but on the previous thread you continually castigate him for being lazy, having obtained a poor degree and being rich. Tends to sort of give an impression of your feelings for him.
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> - There is no evidence to show that these people did rate him highly either as a climber or as a person
Except that they continued to climb with him for years afterwards, some of them mentioning him positiviely in their own writings. Would climbers of the calibre of Oppenheimer and Slingsby *really* have consented to follow uo new routes a man who they *didn't* at least rate as their equal in climbing skill? Get real!
> [...]
> - I have never mentioned 'class' or 'toff'. The evidence is overwhelming that H-S did not have the ability to climb this route and from what we know of his background and character may well have spuriously claimed the ascent.
You didn't explicitly use the words "class" or "toff" but you did make it quite clear that you thought of him as an "idle rich" person. Where's this actual evidence you keep talking about? Every point you've brought up on this thread and the other has been refuted.