UKH

I had a sudden realisation that I've been coasting in my climbing for the last few years and that I'm not getting any younger (49 this August).

I've got 10 days in North Wales this summer and if the stars align I'd like to have a go at Right Wall. I've done quite a few E4s in the past but only 2 E5s which were about 20 years ago. Since starting back after a break of a few years E3 has been my max. It does however appear to be a style of climbing that suits me.

I've got my own ideas for what I need to do to be in the right place physically and mentally but I'd like to hear other people's suggestions. Including beta for I will need all the help I can get and I am entirely without shame.

Thanks.

I can send you a topo of the gear placements and some beta. P.m. me if interested.

Spray me! YHM.

The ideal gear list is a strange mix apparently, knowing it would mean carrying a lot less unneccessary rack.

A lot of vertical wall training on the climbing wall, maybe with a weight belt.

Climb other routes first on the Cromlech to get used to the style, at least Foil and Resurrection, which are probably technically harder but better protected. Have a good shake out on the resting ledges.

I think you will be fine.

Thanks Rick.

It's some way above my current level but I'm increasingly of the opinion that this is a good approach to hard routes that you aspire to - less about the grade and more about what you have to do to climb that specific route in terms of style, length, rock type, protection etc.

I could have written this post myself! Good luck.

Yes.  Mind you it has taken me until my 60s to learn this!  Of course, along the way it has become much more acceptable in terms of style.

Can I get similar for left wall?

I’d agree with Resurrection but not Foil. RW is about climbing confidently away from gear on rock which is not always easy to read whereas Foil is deciding whether to put runners or fingers in a splitter finger crack. Memory Lane may be a more appropriate waymarker, and of course Left Wall too. I did Capital Punishment before RW which was also good to get my head in gear

A decent amount of mileage at E3/4 to be comfortable placing gear efficiently and climbing away from it is helpful.

Others might disagree, but I think trying to onsight 7a’s on bolts is also quite good training, both for fitness and to get used to reading moves and having to try hard onsight.

In my view this is a good mix because if you are a confident trad leader and can regularly onsight 7a sports routes, then Right Wall should be attainable - it’s probably about 6c, but good to have a bit in hand.

I’ve had a peek at your diary. The good news is your previous E5 is “Scotland’s Right Wall”. Many of your other harder trad. leads are on the bold side which make Wales’ Right Wall an excellent target. 

What is also noticeable from your diary is you’ve been doing a lot of ‘coasting’ as you put it, mainly short solos or quasi boulder problems, but very little try-hard trad. or sport climbing. Right Wall is a 120’ pitch and would be around Fr 6c with 12 bolts, though most people need a little in hand. You’ve got the trad. chops so I think you need to be climbing just a little harder than 6c, say long 7as first or second go. The last time you were operating at this standard was 20 years ago which, not coincidentally, was when you did Lady Charlotte. 

Get the mileage on long, vertical, hard-for-you routes, perhaps initially sport: Siurana, Chulilla, Portland, N Welsh coastal limestone would all be good places to get the relevant fitness, then long trad. routes wherever the weather allows. Trying Resurrection first is standard advice and good if you’ve got fitness to spare and are a little cautious on trad. You’re the reverse and I’m guessing you might find Resurrection no easier than Right Wall (it’s physically harder) and trying it before Right Wall might be off-putting. 

I’d aim to arrive at the Cromlech this summer with a few 7as under my belt, warm up one of the routes Kevin suggests, and go for it in the late afternoon when the sun is off the rock.

Beta from 1983: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BMKWOECD3SV/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&ig...

That's a pretty good analysis of my recent climbing! Thanks.

 https://www.instagram.com/p/BMKWOECD3SV/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&ig...

My topo is obviously very similar but I never spotted two threads! 

It's more like two E4's on top of each other, with the girdle ledge between them for a rest.

The cruxes tend to be fairly steady but a few feet above bomber gear so get used to that style of climbing. sounds daft but slate is great for this.

90% of the battle with these classic routes is standing at the bottom of them, putting your shoes on and going. 🙂 GET IT DONE!! 🙂

Was remembering that Foil is a different style as I was typing but included it as someone better once advised that if you  on sight  Foil you can do RW. Anyway, more routes at the Cromlech beforehand the better, I concur with your recommendations.

I’ve done it a few times, early days with Rab and even Paul Nunn, but personally I think there are easier E5,s in Wales. It’s fairly sustained at a reasonable grade with adequate pro, apart what was for me the crux, up to and out of the porthole. I once saw Pete Gomersall fail at the move because he didn’t have the reach. Take all the rests you can and if you have a topo, that must take half a grade off, so go for it.

Its the A4086

Ok smart arse what's the road to NIAD?

For what it's worth, I wouldn't agree with the standard line about Resurrection being physically harder. The last time I did both was on the same day, both on second (so no leader-head bias), and I felt the crux of Right Wall was harder, if only slightly.

Also not sure about a topo taking half a grade off, I've seen some pretty naff topos that don't help at all. Once you're on that wall it's tricky to read, even when you know roughly where to go. Being chalked obviously makes it easier, but on that pockety rock even that can be less helpful than you'd expect.

My tip, don't underestimate it. You hear a lot about how it's not that bad. It may be bottom end E5 but it is still E5.

Agree I thought Resurrection was way easier, both technically and psychologically. One hard but well protected move at the top.

Have a couple of days at Loch Maree Crag. You won”t need such a big rack for the Cromlech and the routes are shorter.

Also, remember this is Wales, so the gear placements will be easy to spot (polished!) and the route will most likely be chalked up. 

I thought Resurrection was physically harder than Right Wall, but much better protected and the difficulties more concentrated. I remember Right Wall feeling tricky to read and feeling sustained, both because of fiddling in gear and because it seemed quite far between the really good rests. I don't think I would rate it as soft E5, I think I would rate it as medium E5. Like everyone else said, if you can on-sight 7a sport wall climbs and you have a bold streak then you should be fine.

Lots of good advice above. A few things I would add:

Take 2 gold cams. One goes at the bottom of the short leftward diagonal crack just as the proper climbing starts. The other goes in the large pocket between the two ledges and is pretty crucial because there’s nothing else worth having till you get to the second ledge. Also one of the hard moves is just above that pocket. You go diagonally up and left from that pocket - don’t be tempted to traverse left into Lord. There’s a poor hold to pull on but you soon get to better holds, which improve as you get closer to the ledge.

Getting to the first ledge is fairly easy. Just as the runout gets concerning, the holds get bigger. There’s a small thread (Edelrid aramid sling handy) but it’s a pain to get in, easier to carry on. Small gear followed by a hidden purple cam to get to the gold cam pocket - not particularly hard. Then a hard pull or two into better holds to the second ledge.

There’s possibly a poor gold (ie third one) or large blue cam at the ledge, although the suggestion of a hex on Duncan’s topo may be better. Above that is some fairly sustained climbing for a few metres up to the porthole. I got a weird offset placement (something like upside down or back to front) down and right of the porthole. You can get a skyhook in the porthole but it needs a lot of extension to stay on. There’s a techy move to get stood up in the porthole which is fine as long as you aren’t pumped. Above is bold (nothing worth having till the crack) but steady. The direct finish is well worth doing and has good gear.

As others have said, if you can onsight long vertical crimpy 7as, you should be ok - it’s probably 6c but you definitely want a couple of sport grades in hand. Resurrection is probably harder as it doesn’t have two good rest ledges and safer, so well worth doing first.

Lots of trad mileage at E3-4 is pretty important, as your head has to be in gear.

Enjoy!

I thought it WAS your post 😂

I think a skyhook is a bit off the wall! It's not an E7!

Interesting to read the differing views on Resurrection versus Right Wall!

That topo is 41 years old, some of the placements will have blown-out, and it definitely shouldn't be taken too seriously. It seems from Misha’s commentary that the key message - the gear is bigger than you might expect - is still valid. 

The E4/5 rating shouldn’t be taken too literally either. At the time I was based in Bristol and my grading was informed by Steve Monk's guide which had E4 as top grade. E5s like Already Gone and Don’t Slip and E4s like The Bilk and Bisector Wall were all given E3. In the Peak, Supersonic was E4, Jermyn Street E3 and so on. 

In reply to Pedro50:

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24442.msg452824.html#msg4528...

In reply to Philb1950 (or anyone else): so... what Welsh E5s are easier than Right Wall then?!

 I did Riēght wall before Resurrection.  I'd done a couple of grit e5s but the only Welsh ones I had done were  Poetry Pink (E5 6b)and .Mean Feat (E5 6a).  and Flashdance (E5 6a)

I did Ressurection and True Grip a bit later. ( thought True Grip was more sketchy /insecure than Right Wall and didn't find Ressurection any easier as a lead than RW really)

I don't think I had too much in hand physically but had done shed loads of e3/4s in North Wales and Peak and had plenty in hand mentally, lots of soloing on grit. 

Not long before I did RW I did left wall with just one rack of wires and about 6 draws.  This wasn't by design as somehow we got to the cromlech without most of the gear and only one half rope, and as neither of us could be arsed to walk back I thought I may as well do something.  The point is, that's the level of confidence that I had. Right wall is a confidence route.  Small positive holds but you've just got to keep pushing on at a couple points,  hoping that good holds and gear come to hand.  I didn't get any gear in the porthole ( my mate did when he did it) as I just felt I had to keep climbing.  Don't hang around except for milking the rests. I guess that's the essence of the route really , it's just brilliant and is still fresh in the memory 33 years on. 

Its definitely not to be underestimated despite it's lowly equivalent sport grade.

philb was saying there's easier e5s in Wales. I'm sure there are, but running through the classic/ well known popular crag ones I'm struggling to think of them.  Maybe the ones I've mentioned for the weak and bold slab climber?  Huntsmans leap maybe Minotaur/ head hunter?  Similar . Gogarth, nah I'd rate the main cliff/ upper tier e5s harder certainly no easier. Nothing else in Pass at that grade any easier I can think of at mo. Tremadog nah, slate maybe a few more?.  Rhoscolyn? Warpath? 

Could be a good seperate thread though - classic Welsh e5s easier than right wall..

Get on it when it's chalked and good luck to you!

Maybe Warpath (if you're fit) or Poetry Pink (if you have strong fingers and like slabs)?

It's a long time since I did Right Wall but would definitely second your advice re targeting long vertical / slightly overhanging sport climbing in the high 6s / low 7s.  Almost all the people I knew in the 90s who were climbing E5/E6 away from the grit spent a fair amount of time sport climbing.

​

Seems we agree .

Was just thinking of North Wales , but Headhunter is a good shout as well, my first E5 excepting a foolish gritstone solo years before.

Also agree that Right Wall shouldn't be underestimated, it might be low in the grade but it's still a big lead and definitely worth E5 imo.

Not essential but it’s an option, especially if you don’t get the weird offset placement or some other gear. The description for Cruel Sister mentions a skyhook and that’s E3. 

Ha ha. I arrived at the porthole in that state (during an attempt on Precious in which I got totally gripped and boxed on the lower section) and took the big ride down past the halfway ledge. If that happens to you, don't forget to push away (slightly) to avoid breaking your ankles on the ledge, which has happened to others. Apart from that, it's a good clean fall onto bomber gear.

Also, that gear topo is pretty old. I got the RP4 below the porthole when I first led RW (in 1987) and was pretty pleased with it. But a year later, I couldn't find it. As for the other 3 placements up and left... Well, if you weren't too pumped to do the move when you got to the porthole, you probably would be by the time you found and placed them.

Positron, perhaps? Not so much easier, but very amenable as a first E5, particularly if you prefer safe and pumpy to slightly bold with good rests. RW and Positron were my first two E5s and I'm struggling to think of anything easier (not that have done a great many).

Crimson Cruiser (E5 6a)

Are both probably easier. George and Rach are probably the people to ask.

I thought the exact opposite!  I found resurrection hard and unobvious (I fell off near the top but got it 2nd go).  Right wall I found much easier to read and although its a bit run out around the porthole and a bit at the start I found the climbing easier with better rests.

King Wad?

Get yourself sport fit. When I did this 25 years ago I'd spent most of my summer playing on the Yorkshire Big 3.

A week before I did RW I did Resurrection and it felt easy. I knew I was ready then.

E

​​​​​​To paraphrase Andrew Greig, I'm camping in the ruins of a once decent trad game.  

Grab some popcorn/chalk those sweaty fingers!

Neil Gresham spoiling everyones onsight 😉 youtube.com/watch?v=CyZn6ykI0OY&

Rob Knowles doing the same:  vimeo.com/357665396

Lots of good advice here I think. Suppose the crux of it is being able to reliably onsight F6c-7a, easy to say you need to be able to do that, harder to do it!

The Cromlech is basically a very friendly vert crag, lots of positive edges, lots of them downwards facing, so if you have a circuit board anywhere near you that resembles that then doing lots of laps will help.

Fwiw I think that Resurrection is physically easier than Right Wall.

What got me from struggling up 6c’s to fairly regularly onsighting 7a (at Portland or Siurana, not the Peak!) was just getting plenty of aerobic fitness. Lots of cruising around at the wall with either no pump or not much of one, maybe 300m in a session (less if done on a bouldering wall where the level is a bit higher). For me ten sessions of that with some bouldering thrown in was enough. It is tiring work but can be done quite quickly. 

This is not intended to be of any use at all, but back in the good ole' days of UKC, maybe early- or mid-noughties?, I remember johncoxmysteriously (or just John Cox as he was then) seriously trying to convince me I should be able to climb Right Wall. This seemed as ridiculous an idea then as it still does now, but if I remember correctly John's argument was it was "only 6b+" which I was nearly climbing at the time, and that (because I was in Finland then and it was winter) I was "climbing above ice screws every weekend" - probably true but on WI3/4 sort of terrain! - and therefore I wouldn't be scared getting above the runners. That was I believe the entire logic to his argument. Everybody on this thread seems to be saying that RW is actually 6c, so I suppose we can't rule out that I had done something to annoy John and he was in a convoluted way trying to kill me, but I don't think so. Anyway, you climb above ice screws all the time, so I'm sure you'll be fine.

As it was winter at the time, and I did live in Finland, fortunately I was never anywhere close enough to RW to see how ridiculous the suggestion was. I have climbed on the Cromlech since coming back to the UK, but I think I would super happy with myself if I could second Left Wall cleanly at some point, never mind even seconding Right. I did second Cenotaph Corner and found it straightforward enough to be annoying that I didn't try leading it, but I think every route on those faces, at all the different grade levels have the ability to psyche you out with their histories. Best of luck when you do get on it!  

I would say just go and try it. Theres lots of gear if you hunt around with the only bold bit being off the girdle ledge, where you could bail off into cemetery gates. Much better to try these routes and fall off then not try them at all.

I fell off RW years ago and then did it several years later. Still had a great experience, no regrets at having 'blown the onsight' or similar nonsense  

This is a good approach to reduce the pressure on yourself too. After all, it doesn't really matter does it? Does it?

I have been pointed at Rimsky-Korsakov as a good potential first E5,  so presumed it was at the easier end of the spectrum! Interested to hear of any opinions to the contrary.

What about up to the girdle ledge?

Trying to get this attitude is what helped me break in to E4 and made harder trad (for me) a lot more fun! I had (have) a bad habit of getting super worked up about the very binary nature of success/failure onsight/not onsight.

It's all about the process apparently!

If it matters to you, then it matters! Personally, I think I would have probably stood even less chance if I had had a second go at any of my E5 failures (about 50% of those attempted) because the special "E5 psyche" was a major part of what got me up the ones I didn't fail on.

Seconded. I‘ve just missed the onsight of so many routes at my limit, right at the top; later attempts have usually failed miserably before I even got back to my previous high point. Going for an onsight or flash does seem to unleash reserves which are harder to call upon on subsequent attempts.

I too have found that the "E5 Onight Cape" can often only be worn once per route. Wearing the cape gives you an extra few percent of grrrrrr.

I have never done it but it is an interesting thread as you are pretty much the same age as me and climb a similar grade. I guess the obvious advice is to get fit in mind and body and just get on it. You sound like you have the skills and experience to survive even if you mess it up and you fall off. The crux could be just setting off on lead.

I have done Foil and messed that up by running out of small wires and getting pumped. If you do foil first do not do that. I have climbed memory lane and resurrection a couple of times and they would probably be better preparation. Something like the axe on Cloggy may also fit the bill if dry.  

Another tip would be to go to Pembroke first and do a load of e2-e4. Things like Trevellan Pillar, Star Wars and Bloody Sunday if you have never done them. Get used to climbing relatively hard trad. 

Good luck in your efforts. 
 

Thats where I fell off the first time. Its spaced there, I went a fair distance, but dead safe, you're high up and theres nothing to hit, as opposed to the bit off the girdle ledge where you could clip the ledge.

I think that the all or nothing onsight mindset where anything else is considered an outright failure does focus the mind to good effect.

When I did it as my first E5 in 1984 (forty years ago - how did that happen😱) I was so psyched that, having tried and failed for some time to get in some crucial twisted hex I had been told about as the last gear before the run out, I just totally went for it pumped already. Both my feet popped a couple of times but I somehow hung on and made it to the girdle ledge. Very memorable. The tricky porthole bit felt routine in comparison after a good rest.

I remember well the day i did RW (my first E5 on sight) about 35yrs ago when in my early 40's. During the drive up the pass Don Mclean  was singing American Pie on the radio. This triggered an earworm which stuck with me thro my ascent. The disturbing thing was, the final line of the chorus seemed to stand out most "this'll be the day that i die"

Thankfully i didn't.

Ps :- I found what i thought ( cant remember exactly ) was a brilliant rock 2 or 3 placed sideways between two nubbings just left of the porthole. This boosted my confidence for the hard move above.

There's already a lot of good information and advice within this thread, so much so that it's hard to know whether I can actually add anything that hasn't been said already, but here's my attempt.

As a few others have said, the crux of Right Wall is getting stood underneath it, racked, roped and ready to go. Routes like Right Wall gain mythical status and generally speaking a routes rep is infrequently worse in reality than it is in your mind. In order to dispel an intimidating atmosphere I used to tell myself I was "going for a look" and that helped a lot.

I'm always impressed with people who remember specific details about routes, either in terms of gear or moves, because I certainly don't; however, what I remember are the themes of a route. Right Wall features the same theme three times: easy climbing initially, with good gear, but becoming incrementally more difficult, before a crux section leads to an easier run-out section. It's a route which rewards a confident approach and a cool head.

When it comes to preparation I think trad mileage will make a massive difference, because the more at home you feel hanging out on edges above gear, the easier it's going to stay relaxed up there. Onsighting a load of vertical sport climbs will make a load of difference too, as that'll give you that extra 'try hard'. It'll also give you a good gauge of how deep you can dig into the pump and how effectively you can fight back out of it. Remember, those rests are really good, so you've got something to aim for.

In terms of some of the other peripheral debates. I personally think Resurrection is harder (technically), partly because it's more sustained climbing, but also because it's got a lot more gear - and as a result people tend to make the route feel even more sustained by placing a whole load more of it. Right Wall is easier in this respect, because you don't have to spend anywhere near as much time worrying about gear. Obviously you need to make sure what you get is good, but once you've got enough there's usually an obvious moment where it's just a case of climbing/sprinting to the next ledge.

On that note, there's the ever present question about whether or not there's gear at the Porthole. Some people say there is, others say there isn't. My opinion is that whatever there is isn't obvious or necessary. Why pump out placing gear when you could use that valuable resource to make the final few moves?! 

Enjoy the journey...

Yeah it’s the ledge rather than the fall which is the issue there.

Precious seemed a step up from RW, perhaps just because it’s less well travelled.

Think Positron was my first E5, as you say it’s safe. Each pitch is E3 or E4 on its own but overall there’s obviously a lot more tough climbing compared to RW. Fell off on the short pitch just before moving into the Alien chimney. Keep meaning to revisit it to do it clean.

I thought Rimsky was harder - harder moves, no real rests, fiddly crucial gear and insecure feeling. A lot shorter but packs it in. 

Some people say RW is 6b+ but I would respectfully suggest that these people are wrong (and before anyone chips in, I don’t think it’s less than 6b+). This makes me think the world needs a thread about sport grades for popular E5s.

Found my photo of the porthole - this was taken en route, must have been feeling cocky. Don’t stick a QD on the skyhook though as it will fall off!

You do realise that skyhooks are sold with the tape outside the double slot. They tend to resist an outward pull better. Try feeding the stitching through the slot.

I know I asked for beta but I think you've taken this too far.  

Joking aside, thanks to everyone for their advice.

I'm really looking forward to finding out how you get on! Hope it's a great day for you.

Thanks. A lot will need to come together for me to get on it but fingers crossed. 

I distinctly remember you (and Keith) telling my about the mythical good gear just left of the porthole. I never found it.

E

It’s a good point. From a quick look, it seems they come in either configuration. I suspect this version is better for a straight down pull, though whether there is ever such a thing in climbing is another question. At any rate, I don’t think I’d be able to pull it round due to the stitching. Not a piece of gear I particularly rely on…

Nothing mythical about it Enty, just 30 years of prior experience in finding obscure gear placements when things get a bit worrying.

Al

I distinctly remember getting a wire in sideways. I can't remember the size now but maybe a rock 1? Seemed pretty good at the time and I remember offering advice to others about it afterwards. Where I remember it to be was at the bottom of the porthole itself, or marginally below, rather than off to the side.

It was, however, nigh on 40 years ago though, so I'm not going to bet my house on the accuracy of my memory!

I definitely remember the key porthole runner being a rock 1, but I don't remember that it was sideways.

Similar, a Rock 1 or 2 and a 6 or 7. Both sideways, actually below the porthole, maybe 12 to 18 inches. Can't remember which was which. 

Isn’t it likely to be easier fingers uncrossed ?

Inspiring goals. Good timing. Knowing you, you stand a good chance.

This is a great thread so I feel compelled to add my own Right Wall story. In 1986 I was camping in the Pass below the Cromlech. I managed Left Wall OK and then on sighted Resurrection by the skin of my teeth. So, Right Wall next, I thought. In those days I only owned one Friend: a number two and a half, which I placed on the first no hands ledge. Moving up and left there was obviously a hard section to get to the girdle ledge. There was chalk on the route but it wasn’t helpful as every single crap pocket, it seemed, had chalk on it so finding the good ones was not easy. I got to a bomber two and a half Friend placement but mine was already placed down below. So I wiggled in a crap Hex 7, which surprisingly held me when I fell off the next bit. 

The next year I had a grudge to settle and therefore climbed Right Wall with four runners: a nut at the top of the initial crack, something (I forget exactly what) on that first ledge, my two and a half Friend in that bomber placement before the girdle ledge and then a large Rock on the girdle ledge and went to the top from there. I didn’t plan to climb it with so little runners but, I guess, that is what you do when you are 19-years old, stupid, and full of spunk.

Ok, my Right Wall story ... 🙂

1984. A week before, I'd been at Stanage with my usual climbing partner at the time, Dave Turner. When scrambling over boulders at the base, he managed to tread on my finger and badly graze it as I instinctively snatched it away. We had a trip to Wales planned the following week, with Right Wall in my sights, but that should be plenty of time for it to heal up.

Hitching to Wales, it was still sore, and looking infected. We arrived and did Stroll On, during which my finger started gushing blood. Not good.

What to do? The finger needed treating and a week to heal, but I was impatient. "Let's do Right Wall tomorrow morning."

We didn't really do warming up in those days. Plenty of tape on the sore finger and good to go. Climbed up and past the girdle ledge all with just 2 fingers of my right hand, but then passing the porthole I felt I needed a third finger, at which point blood started oozing out messily from the tape, so back to two fingers again to the top.

That afternoon we hitched out again!

In reply to:

A classic thread! Whilst the beta list has got progressively longer over the course of this thread the 'excuses' list is getting ever shorter... 👌 

I'm sure I've posted this before, but back in 1978 I'd done Ivy Sepulchre (E1 5b) - when it was still correctly given HVS - and was abbing down the corner. "Are you on the girdle?" I asked the guy on the gates belay ledge.

"No we're on Right Wall" answered one of the Berzins brothers (*), looking rather peeved that I hadn't realised the magnificence of them doing a very early repeat although splitting it at the girdle and each leading "half".

(*) - I only realised it was them when their "alternate leads" ascent was reported in the mags. Think it was the third ascent (after Pete & Ron's), or maybe fourth.

I think they thought it ok to split into two pitches because of all of Pete's shenanigans on the first ascent - can't remember the exact details, didn't he do something like untie, solo up The Gates, abb back down to the ledge for a peek because he couldn't remember the holds/sequence around the porthole, tie back in and continue.

I wonder if it could be argued that Ron actually did the first ascent 🤣, if Pete was still around would it have been a good subject to try winding him up about (for those who knew him well enough).

I never really considered it, except that I'd like to second it before too long, just to experience the moves.

It was nearly 25 years ago for me, my one and only E5. I always had the ambition for RW but no serious plans. One summer Saturday we had a good morning’s climbing at Idwal; Suicide Wall Route 2 and Capital Punishment which felt easy and undaunting. I realised I was “in the zone” so after a lunchtime brew at Ynws we stormed up to the Cromlech.
I climbed smoothly up to the crosely pocket but couldn’t see a way up from it so lowered off the 2.5 (old size) friend disheartened. That evening my mate gave me a pep talk and persuaded me to have another go on Sunday. When I got back to the crosely pocket I found the loooong stretch left to the line of crimps leading to the girdle ledge. I spend a long time there, it was very hot even in shorts and vest and the small finger and toe holds to the porthole felt a little too small and greasy. I was about to bin it and grab the small wire at chest height when a cold breeze wafted up the crag, now or never, I found the illusive toe swap to climb to and up and left of the porthole to a crack, runners and easier climbing.

I must have been reasonably fit back then, around the same time I was training at Broughton regularly and we were working our way through redpointing (2 days per route) the Malham Catwalk 7a+’s (and my only ever 7b) . I went back to second RW around 12 years ago and couldn’t second the crux on a tight rope

I'm liking these stories. Memories to treasure as you get older!

It helps a great deal to have someone who’s already climbed it sitting at the top of Left Wall telling you what and where the next placement is!

(Fine style for early 1980s.)

Still not uncommon these days…

Apparent from these posts that many of us have had beta or needed more than one go. I wonder what percentage of ascents are truly onsight, given the fame of the route; photos,  chapter in Extreme Rock, talking to friends etc. It took me two goes, I knew a lot about it. I started climbing in 1972, news of its ascent in 1974 stunned us when Mountain magazine appeared. I scraped my way up it in 1989 aged 35, I will be 70 this year. Hardly a day goes by without me thinking about it with pride. From this thread I've passed on beta to four people and I'm hoping they will get as much out of it as I did. 

I was pondering the title to the thread, and inspired by your post, turning it around to 'The Road from Right Wall'. It was 1984 for me, wonderful day. There have been other fine days down the many years but darker times also than I ever imagined then. 

1983 for me with Tom Jones at the top of Left Wall calling out the placement. (We didn’t call it beta back then.)

As Mischa suggests upthread - "it's not unusual"....

[Ok - I've found my coat!]

I have to say that this has been a lovely thread, both useful and inspiring to me.

I expected lots of good input. What I hadn't expected is to hear just how important Right Wall has been to many of you, in your climbing lives and beyond.

It seems to be one of those routes that makes stories, whether that story is the pinnacle of your climbing career or a gateway to bigger things doesn't matter. Reading those stories has been great and even if I don't do it the process of trying to get there is now part of my story. It has actually been part of my climbing story for much longer than this. I went to Llanberis to do it in 2005 on my 30th birthday. I was as fit as I ever have been and confident for it. Unfortunately the weather was minging and our tent got flattened in the campsite so we had to come home and that's as close as I ever got. 

Now there's a wee project for someone 'Right Wall Stories'...

Mine was technically better than a pure onsight because my mates had told me about lots of non existent gear placements.

E

I have two stories - we were sat at the bottom of Cenotaph in 1974 waiting for Jill Lawrence to pick her way steadily up it, Pete was fixing up an abseil to check out Right Wall. From the top I got to watch him, on a single rope tied to a tiny tree, with a horrible old steel figure 8, bouncing about trying moves in the top third of the climb. It looked thoroughly desperate and scary.

A couple years later I was on Dinas Mot with John Kirk, having a bad day on Mole Direct (I think) belaying because I had failed on the crux. I had the shock of watching Chris Gore, who had travelled down with us, take an enormous fall from near the top of RW on an early ascent. I don't remember him being at all hurt but that put all thoughts of trying it myself right out of mind!

Here's an offer you can't refuse*: how about we publish something after you've done it. We can gather some of the stories posted within this thread, plus a few extras (I'm sure there's more out there).

Like you say, Right Wall is a route people really care about, and means a lot to people as a result. I certainly know that it did to me, not least because it still does. The memory of when I first did it is one I look back on very fondly and all subsequent ascents have been similarly meaningful for one reason and the next.

I can't wait to hear how you get on.

* you can, obviously, refuse it

Here's another story. A friend of mine had just done Cemetery Gates and was relaxing at the top when a pair of sweaty hands appeared at the top of Right Wall.  The owner of the hands was pumped out of his mind and facing a huge fall and gasped to my friend in desperation "please, please stand on my hands!"   ..... and then he just made the top out.

When I did Right Wall I was so buzzing and pumped with adrenaline afterwards that I went back down and soloed Cemetery Gates really just to burn some of it off.

Didn’t he claim it was E4? 🤣

Absolutely loving this thread

I was in Ynns Ettys one dreary afternoon reading Fear of Flying by Erica Jong. Phil Davidson appeared and asked if I fancied going up to the Cromlech. I wasn't very keen and anyway Erica was approaching a zipless moment it seemed, so he went off alone. When he reappeared I politely asked how he'd got on. Oh I soloed Right Wall he said. I'm still not sure if I wished I'd have gone or not.

And how many of us as teenagers had that iconic poster of Phil Davidson soloing Right Wall on our bedroom walls? I expect I've still got mine somewhere.

This is such a great thread. The best I've seen on here for years. Climbers talking about a climb in a really positive and friendly atmosphere...what on earth is happening to UKC?

I didn't start early enough to have that picture of Phil Davidson on my wall, but when I first saw it (shortly after paddling the Fairy Glen on the Conwy with him) I was stunned. Its one image I doubt I'll ever forget. RIP Phil.

There can't be many ascents of E5s where you could call it 'combined tactics'...

My first attempt was a bit of a schooling in route finding. I had been climbing with GPN on a CC Aspirants Meet. For a change, the weather was playing ball and we did Troach, Silhouette, Shrike and The Axe on Saturday, followed by the Grooves on Sunday morning. Feeling confident, I suggested Right Wall for the afternoon. GPN went on to be a much better climber than me but at the time I had done a bit more around that level, so he was happy to second.

Things started off fine but I ground to a halt at the gold cam pocket as I couldn’t figure out where to go. Ended up traversing too far left into Lord (a common mistake), pumped out and got unceremoniously spat off. My excuse was being tired but the reason was being a muppet. Disappointing but trad can be unforgiving like that. Pulling back up to the cam, I figured out where to go and just about made it to the better holds above. The last third actually went fine.

The following year I was back, this time with spragglerocks. Knowing where to go and not being tired made all the difference. The gods of unfinished business got angrier with me and demanded another sacrifice, which was soon offered in the shape of Gesemini Direct but that’s another story. Despite a clean ascent, I continued the muppet theme by deploying a recently acquired skyhook at the Porthole, which promptly fell off as I moved past it because I didn’t think to extend it. This was even more amusing as, feeling cocky, I had just taken an en route photo of the skyhook.

My other experience of Right Wall was two years later as part of Precious. It’s curious that, despite being a logical direct on Right Wall, Precious is considered far less classic and gets a fraction of the traffic. Perhaps the E5 6b grade and lack of chalk puts people off. It’s actually 6a, though on the whole it’s a bit harder than Right Wall. I had the rare benefit of seeing someone do it before me and following their chalk, which perhaps isn’t cricket on a semi-obscure route such as this but I’m of weak spirit and happy to take these opportunities where possible. Even so, and despite allegedly being a direct, it felt fairly questy with some meandering around (a common theme hereabouts) and some creaky rock, until the classy direct finish above the Porthole. The much missed Rachel Slater encapsulated it in her logbook: “felt like being on the dodgy B road, parallel to the nice motorway”.

Good account, but what's a spragglerock?

I've heard this story from someone else except the phrase they reported was 'stand on me hands, stand on me fookin' hands!' and it was someone topping out Cemetery Gates after them. Enough similarities to be the same event and I'm sure we have a few mutual acquaintances.

The phrase actually passed into general usage with a few mates and is often used on topping out a hard pitch.

Many years ago I climbed Right Wall with Sean Villanueva O'Driscoll (as part of a BMC international meet). This was well before the height of his and Nico's fame, and I knew nothing about him at the time. We wandered up to the Cromlech with a whole bunch of people including Nick Bullock and, I seem to recall, Pat Littlejohn.

I pointed Sean up Left Wall to warm up, and of course he walked up it. I then quested up Resurrection, and fell off on the very last move, almost falling the length of the crag due to some (ahem) less than attentive belaying. But I got back up and, pumped out of my brain, got it second go.

The question then was, what next? I had been saving RW for the onsight, but it was Sean's lead, and he was the visitor, so it was the obvious option. I think he placed three bits of gear as he walked up the whole thing. I seconded it, still ridiculously pumped from Resurrection, but found it pretty straightforward. Of course, seconding is nothing compared to leading, but technically I found it pretty easy, even when tired. Sean then walked up Lord of the Flies (which BTW, I found considerably harder than RW, even on second).

One the one hand, I was disappointed to lose the onsight of two classic routes. But on the other, I doubt I'll ever have the cojones to lead Lord, and realistically now I've moved away I probably won't ever get back on RW. So in hindsight I'm happy to have climbed both routes in the company of somebody who is now a bit of a legend (and, even at the time, was an absolute gentleman and a pleasure to climb with).

Later on Nico tried to onsight Nightmayer, which was recorded for posterity: https://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/categories/trad_climbing/nico_favresse_an...

What a day!

UKC username 😂

It's been fun and nostalgic reading the tales of people's experiences on this route, and I think in some ways it's a justification of our arcane UK trad style of climbing and history that a wandering line with awkward gear brings about such vivid experiences that mean so much to so many.  

To me it represents one of the best days of my best year of trad climbing, and an early climbing date with my now life partner.  For a while I had a nagging feeling about the style of my ascent though, because while racking up to warm up on CG I was aware that someone had started up RW.  My ethics started out strong with tunnel vision only for the crack ahead, but as I caught up with him my eye started wandering to the left.  I fought (not very hard) against temptation but ended up leaning out from a jug and gawping across to study his moves and gear through the porthole section, committing the sequence to memory and completely blowing any claims to an onsight.  Some time later I saw a photo from Don Sargeant who was hanging above the corner taking pictures of the RW climber that day and there in the background is my face intently focussed on what was going on 10m to my left.  Oh the shame!  My flashed ascent of RW later that afternoon went smoothly, especially the porthole section...

Like many I suspect, my rigid onsighting ethics weakened over time and now it's a funny memory.

Thanks DaveHK for inspiring a great thread, and good luck with the mission

Ditto. As well as mainly being a muppet, my other mistake was trying to avoid beta in circumstances where it was actually awkward to do so, and ending up with dodgy half-beta.

Beforehand I was belaying my partner on the corner while another team climbed RW, and trying not to watch them, but couldn't really help seeing them in the corner of my eye when I looked up. From the perspective almost directly beneath, it struck me how far left the line went in that middle section. I also thought 'it'll be chalked now, just follow the chalk way left on that bit'.

Well I went too far left, the chalk disappeared, I got too pumped to reverse and took quite a big fall.

That might have been about the last time that I ever actually went out of my way to avoid beta on a route.

On my second attempt a couple of years later, it all went steadily and I really enjoyed it.

Nick had to do lap 30 to rescue my gear a few years ago, haven't been back since but would to to get it done!

I was watching too, and did the route the next day. Such a good route. One of my favourites anywhere. Livesey was a visionary .

And another Right Wall story...

Summer 1982 and a fine week in the Pass, tempted to give it a go in an attempt to be the first in MUMC to lead an E5, (though subsequent grade creep had already made this a futile quest anyway). All went well past the crux until a growing sense of unease set in at the porthole on the top wall, as I became ever more conscious of the possibility of hitting the ledge below if I came off. Raising a foot into the porthole I somehow kicked out the solitary wire - the Rock 1 mentioned above rings a bell - whereupon unease rapidly became blind panic and a hasty retreat, aided by a 4mm loop of rope hooked over the nearest thing resembling a spike I could find, had me lowering to the ledge.

Attempting to salvage some honour I insisted that we (by now long suffering second Dave Abbey) immediately slog up to do The Skull, which I failed on too!

Two years later, with plenty of recent runouts on slate fresh in the memory, RW felt much less of a harrowing experience, though certainly not the E3 5c some in the Peak were claiming at the time!

Impressed he was still counting at #30…

That must win the prize for bailing from the last hard move… on any route in the whole of Wales! Must have been harder to reverse than to finish. 

Hah! I think I might be able to challenge that.

In about 1978 I was one move from easy ground at the top of Great Wall on Cloggy. It was at the point where, just above the originally aided crack, you shuffle right a few feet onto good holds/small ledge/whatever. One needed to reach right and pinch a tapering right-facing sidepull, bring one's left hand through and similarly pinch it, then shuffle right and reach across for better holds. It kept going wrong at the point where one had to let go of the pinch with the right hand; it was a hot day, the pinch was getting slimey and I wasn't using chalk - and the left hand simply refused to stay attached. I didn't fall off but it was pretty clear that I would if I persisted so I retreated to a fixed sling at the top of the 'aid crack' and abbed from there. Ironically I'd led the pitch back in 1975 with its then standard aid quota [although subsequently learning that by then the aid had probably been reduced to one point] - crucially on the Thursday just before John Allen freed it on the Saturday [never mind the FFA - that was probably the LAA!]. At the time there was a peg in situ at around shoulder- or head-height from which I'm guessing I simply leaned across; a few years later this was absent, so frigging it wasn't an option!

Great Wall - free - is still 'unfinished business'!

Probably happens more often than you think. I too had my foot in the porthole during my attempt on Precious when I realised my arms were not going to cooperate. Having not placed any gear at the porthole, I made perhaps half a move in retreat below the porthole then decided to make a controlled step out into space rather than an uncontrolled fall to the ledge (a known breaker-of-ankles). One of those falls where the sheer inevitability of it removes any feeling of fear.

I got some very useful beta for that section before leading the pitch. 

Quite simple, obvious when told but not when flustered trying the move!

Yours if you want it, Ian.

In the early years I ended up seconding loads of classic routes like this. When I went back to lead them, they were still a tremendous adventure with no sense of loss of the on-sight because the climbing is so good. Maybe that’s just me. Great advice from Enty above, laps on Yorkshire and other sport routes has helped some notables float up hard trad. And some of us punters.

The peg was missing because Pete O'Donovan snapped it off when he took a fall at this traverse - i have it in my collection of antiquities, along with a bent iron bar which used to protect Prom Traverse at Black Rock.

I passed up the option to second Great Wall that day, thinking that I would lead it - it had protection, after all, but was completely happy to follow PoD up The Axe - no way I was leading that!

Great Wall remains Unfinished Business...

I fell off the top of LotF 30 years ago and it still keeps me awake. Of course it matters! 😀

Ah! That actually rings a vague bell. Can you recall whether it resulted in a couple of small wires getting 'welded' into that top crack? And do you know when it happened, roughly? I'm wondering how accurate my "about 1978" recollection is.

Looking forward to you to starting the sister thread..

Too soon, in a few years I might feel able to talk about it. 

I think summer '78 is likely, no knowledge of the state of the wires other than he did not fall too far but must guess they would be hard to remove!

Hi Pete,

I reckon it was summer 1977.

I've never kept any climbing diaries so sometimes the only things that remind me about when I did (or not) certain routes are the people and places. I definitely spent the summers of 1978 and 1979 climbing in the USA, so I think it has to be earlier rather than later.

Maybe John Kirk has a better memory? He was with us on that trip and also a fantastic Easter jaunt (the same year) to Cornwall…

Pete.

I asked because I came across this note in my logbook entry for Daurigol, which would have been around the same time, and wondered whether it might have been the same event:

"Robin led the third (Diglyph) pitch. At some point I swung across and (fairly easily) removed a pair of wires that had shortly beforehand been "irremovably fixed" by someone falling off the upper crux of Great Wall."

Not sure whether "shortly beforehand" meant earlier that day or just very recently. Somebody appeared on the ground and shouted up "You'll never get those out" due, I gathered, to someone having already spent a good while trying; it sounded as if he'd either been present at the time or had heard all about it from somebody who was. Clog #1 wedge and a Stopper #4 or 4.5 - as I recall!

Thinking about it, '77 makes more sense - Yosemite was Spring that year, lots of aid climbing, so I was pretty rubbish on regular trad that Summer, both in Wales and Cornwall. Cheers Pete for the correction, was hoping you might appear!

Wonderful! Simply wonderful. 

Mick