UKH

Should self-locking belay devices be mandatory when leading at an indoor wall? In my experience when someone falls when leading they tend to drop at least 3 bolts below their high point regardless of an attentive belayer.Also if using a non-self locker and my belayer has a heart attack or collapses when lowering me from the top of the wall the outcome would be probably very serious as you can imagine. Your thoughts, please.

i see far more lazy and dangerous belaying from those with assisted devices, than i do for those with a regular atc.

so to answer your question,  nope.


 

My thoughts are I see an awful lot of terrible belaying, often from older trad climbers, who have rarely held much of a sport fall, if ever. Personally I would be happy for floor walkers to engage more, but many of the people I see and know would not be receptive to this advice, having been climbing "since before you were born".

I think some kind of assisted device is a good idea, but mandatory, for heavens sake, climbers never like being told what to do.

This just creates more barriers for people who are starting to trad climb as they will need to learn how to belay using a tube style device to start trad climbing. People need to be competent with whatever belay plate they choose to use in appropriate contexts for it's use. The accident rate will be improved far more by improving belaying competence than by forcing people to use a specific device.

Godwin is correct about floor walker intervention being an important safety tool. I did have an unfortunate encounter at Alter Rock a few years ago where one attempted to sell me a Mammut Smart while I was belaying someone (with a gri gri 2 in a competent fashion), they got a fairly short "No, I am belaying, leave me alone". As such I think it's important that not only do they get training to intervene where there is something legitimately dangerous happening, but also wait until the climber is on the floor to say anything if it's something minor.

It is interesting how criticism of belaying is such a taboo in climbing.

I was once at a club meet  at High Neband an instructor who was instructing nearby approached one of our party, and very quietly pointed out that the long standing member of our club, was dropping the dead end of the rope. Basically belaying in an unsafe manner, 2 current committee members were there and the president informed. As far as I know, the senior member still attends meets, and still drops the end of the rope, as no one wishes to criticize their belaying.

Does anyone wish to be belayed by the senior member?

They turn up on meets, and assume the senior is competent, because they have been climbing so long, so are non the wiser.

I think you were on the other end of the rope from me on that occasion, didn't we do Cave Buttress or something?

I haven't been on many meets lately so wasn't aware the person was still climbing.

That's the one. Yes still attending meets.

I find the different attitude between gyms in the UK and in Switzerland quite interesting. In Switzerland, all you have to do is sign a waiver and off you go. Never any floor walkers and no need to demo your skills to the front desk teenager. Almost all centres promote the use of ABDs over ATCs, but most don't care what you choose to use. 

I've only been back to a few gyms in the UK in recent years, but one took completely the opposite approach and required me to demonstrate I could use an ATC before being able to lead belay and actively discouraged the use of ABDs. 

Ah, that guy. I've had the same encounter. I was in the process of teaching my partner how to use a tube device correctly and he started the sales patter for a Mammut Smart.

Having dealt with a fainting belayer, fortunately a few seconds after I'd been lowered off an ice route, I don't climb sport without an assisted device. 

For indoors and newbies, the WC Revo is perfect and would eliminate accidents. No special technique, no arguments about learning different devices, just a tube device with a safety belt backup. Pricey unfortunately.

If they'd rarely held much of a sport fall, I'd seriously question their degree of experience. 

Totally agree. When you belay someone, you hold their life in your hands. 

Tough. Time for a reality check. When you belay someone, you hold their life in your hands. 

Mick (who's probably been climbing since before they were born!)

None the wiser.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been climbing?

Already mandatory at the wall here in Lanzarote.

Basic Rules

-   It is obligatory to use semiautomatic or automatic items such as Gri-Gri Sum, Cinch, etc.

Ha! My youngest was at a climbing party recently and the instructor let slip how old he was. My belay device(s) (and, indeed, nearly all of my climbing hardware) is(are) older than him!

Wonder what he'd've said if I'd pulled out my sprung Sticht plate!

I briefly attended climbing meets with a local club, trying to meet new climbing partners. This was moderately successful but felt like a complete lottery, particularly when I got the top of a pitch to find the leader of the other pair belaying his partner stood up and not connected to anything, just belaying him from the plate on his harness. I asked him what he was playing at, he replied, "he's not going to fall off this, it's fine". The guy was nearly at the top of the pitch himself, and thankfully arrived without incident. I told him he'd been belayed on thin air and climbed on. Could have been me on the receiving end of that belay, as we'd paired up randomly at the meet. Not saying this is necessarily reflective of climbing club meets generally, but the guy was 'experienced' - i.e. had been climbing multiple decades, but doesn't mean he'd accumulated any knowledge in that time. 

Regards the original question, I'm far more comfortable belaying with a 'normal' belay plate rather than a auto-lock device. Spent years trad climbing and I just can't get to grips with the gri-gri or similar. Find it difficult to let rope out quickly enough when needed (when the leader is clipping for example) and generally just seems faffy. And I definitely think they should be something new belayers avoid until they're confident holding falls and managing the rope with a manual belay device. Seems obvious they would instill complacency in the belayer if they haven't already internalised the basics.

Yeah, I much prefer an assisted device for sport and indoors. I think my girlfriend will be belaying me with an ABD on trad routes too, albeit only on low grades using a single rope so unlikely to be on anything where I will fall off, or where I am dependant on marginal gear (she is unlikely to ever be a "rock athlete, but very much enjoys climbing easy routes).

I will however give Nottingham Climbing Centre a thumbs up for letting us try out a few belay plates weekend before last so my girlfriend could find something she was confident belaying me with (of course she wouldn't like the Gri Gri 2 I already own!) and which I was comfortable being belayed with. 

I’ve got a sprung stich plate too! Bought in 1976 when I was converted from waist belaying by hearing about a belayer with kidney damage after holding a big fall! 

No way- auto devices are awesome if you know what you're doing with them, especially for working sport routes (bollox to doing this with a standard ATC) and even more so if the leader is falling a lot and/or needs to lay off the pies.

However- knowing what you're doing is the key. as with anything. I think learning the basics of lead climbing/belaying with basic kit is essential to develop the basics and skipping this with new climbers won't help them (purely opinion of course....and you could extend this to body belays if you wanted to keep going ha). 

Without wanting to turn this into the annual "Using a GriGri means instant death" thread using an auto device will not remove human error or the daft things we can all do when tired etc-

I'd say using something like a GriGri-threading it, paying out slack effectively for the leader-especially quickly- takes a good bit more skill and ability to read what the leader is doing or you're both gonna have a bad time, despite the self locking ability.

I use an original click up, very similar to a tube in use. Give it a go. The msrk 2 is not as good

The Revo does. There is no way to compromise the failsafe. Has some downsides, but from a safety perspective it's hard to fault. 

These posts always go the same way.

"I see terrible ABD belaying down my wall"

"I see terrible manual device belaying down my wall"

"GriGris are brilliant"

"GriGris are the worst"

Then there's always one recommending the terrible Revo

That's actually laughable.

You going to offer anything constructive or just make snide remarks? 

On a recent trip to New Zealand, my wife and I popped in to the local Climbing wall. To top rope you require to be floor anchored and use their Grigris. We were told the induction usually took about half an hour, but as we appeared competent after demonstrating top rope belaying and having the age of our harnesses checked we were let loose.

We did not do the lead climbing induction, which takes even longer and requires competent climbers to have a yellow ribbon on display at all times when leading or lead belaying.

Beware what you wish for.

Given how massively much more forgiving assisted devices are of errors, I'd much rather be belayed a bit lazily with one than by the best belayer with a normal device. Given the multitude of possible distractions indoors, I really dislike being belayed by anyone with a normal device - it holds me back climbing. I'd quite happily see assisted devices made mandatory, although I do understand the counterarguments.

A complete lottery. What a great summing up of what can happen with clubs. The lucky thing is having enough savvy to make an assessment of it all. Thanks

My son was knocked back recently from being allowed to belay at a climbing centre. Although he has done a fair bit now and 6 multi pitch routes he does get very nervous when asked to demonstrate his competence. He attached the grigri upside down which I wrongly grabbed and corrected before he had the chance. There followed a long lecture from the youngster on belaying which was at the very least condescending but felt down right rude.

When he shouted over he was to show his use of the grigri while pulling it out the bag my heart sank. It clearly has been modified for "Lead rope solo" use including the cord hanging off it. Nothing was said! 

It was my first piece of climbing gear - Christmas present from the guy who was teaching me at the time, somewhere around 1990. Given the era, it (and the matching HMS krab) are anodized purple.

For the purposes of this thread, I've never used a GriGri, or any other ABD, for belaying anywhere - I can't justify the cost for the amount I'd use it!

Wow 

belt and braces . . . Is that a double super double knot with two snap lock crabs. With extra elasticated waist. It’s a maze. 

Just out of curiosity, what's that got to with the price of fish.

As it happens 20 plus years.

Ha, judging by the current rating (6 up, 39 down) most people disagree with you!

If this was to come in, I suspect it would be mandated by the insurance and not voluntarily by a center, because there would be so much uproar.  I'd be interested if there is any data on accident rates of tradition tube type devices vs assisted belay.  I've not seen any major accidents at a wall, but all the "near misses" I've seen where someone hit the floor were with a tube style device. 

Personally I'm with you and don't understand why some people are so defensive about it. I think some feel this is like their belaying is being criticised or something, but it just seems so much safer to me having that extra backup in case something unexpected happens.  Even the most attentive belayer can faint, have a heart attack or whatever. 

What if the leader is going for a clip when their foot accidentally pops, the belayer gets flung in the air,  the slightest slip of their hand, someone else trips and crashes into them or whatever.  It just feels like asking for trouble, people can say they as much as they like how they will never let go of the rope, but why not just have an extra backup in the system?

The only accident I have personal knowledge of was when a friend accidentally used a grigri the wrong way round and dropped their partner. That couldn't happen with more 'passive' devices.

Just sayin'.

Things like the BD ATC XP and the various guide plates can all be set up back to front which will give significantly reduced assistance, however it would look wrong when checking (either a self check, or a buddy check). The Gri Gri won't look quite so wrong to someone who hasn't used the device before though so it is worth being cautious of.

It’s important that people learn to be competent with all types of belay devices. Being able to belay with a Grigri is obviously safer belaying indoors but you never know if you’ll find yourself belaying with just an ATC.

I think it’s more important that indoor centres check that people are competent with the device they are using. In my experience this is something they do. I don’t necessarily think anything needs to change, education just needs to be better.

I can think of at least three full height indoor lead falls using grigris.

All of which were with experienced belayers who were familiar with grigris and would have passed any competence test with ease - they simply messed up on the day.

Or use a device where the brake mechanism can't be defeated by a lack of competence, which is where most devices fail, the GriGri in particular with the variety of ways you can balls up with it and drop someone.

You can't beat a Revo 

I made that point earlier and was mocked, still not clear why.

I haven't found a way to defeat the safety mechanism of the Revo. It succeeds where other assisted devices fail in my view, at the most important aspect, being safe.

Nothing at all. I was simply wondering about the extent of your experience to come out with some of your earlier comments. 

Interesting, thanks. 

My personal pet prediction is that in maybe 10-20 years' time we'll all be using assisted devices as default, and new climbers will view ATCs the same way we view hip belays now. 

Especially if they invent one which reliably gives a bit of initial slip to reduce peak forces.

Are you saying someone who has never used an ATC before would better be able to recognise that it's threaded wrong than they would a GriGri??? 

Yes, the Gri Gri mitigates this by having an incredibly obvious pictogram on the side of it, but it's not perfect. If you thread an ATC XP (the one with the grooves, NOT the smooth edged regular ATC) backwards you wind up with the teeth not engaging with the rope at all.

Ultimately the choice of belay plate should not be based on which fails less catastrophically when set up incorrectly,  the belayer either needs to be competent at setting up the device, or under the supervision of someone who is and buddy checks need to be undertaken to ensure that such an incorrect set up doesn't occur.

I can't imagine using any belay device without first giving a tug on the live rope to make sure that it locks off , it's a habitual reflex, takes half a second on a gri gri and a whole second on my DMM Pivot - the extra time needed to lift the pivot off of the carabiner so that rope can move easily again. Fingers then instinctively move to the screw gate to check that it is done up

Maybe I am paranoid but all devices can fail if rigged badly, if simple function checks were second nature then that removes some holes from the swiss cheese

A far more important discussion than which device is best / safest etc. 

I do not think I have suggested any particular expertise, other than my observations of human nature, and relating an actual incident.

https://youtu.be/v8pEe5X1-Lc?si=qFx0OA5nm8brlt4K

This is quite a good video about the user errors you'd possibly encounter and how the different devices react. It made me rethink my choice of assisted braking device (the edelrid giga jul). With the gigajul it seems to me that it's far too difficult/impossible to give slack while keeping a good enough grip on the dead rope. 

As always, the best belay device is the one you're most comfortable with, but it's important you understand the limitations and failure methods. 

Someone mentioned learning to belay with a tube as you may find yourself using one at some point. This made me think, I wonder how the staff at a wall would react if you belayed using an Italian hitch. A skill I'd say you should practice before you need it! 

I found myself using a waist belay last week. I'd already packed my harness away and a friend needed to retrieve a quickdraw from part-way up a sport route we still had a rope down. A quick waist belay was the simplest option and perfectly safe in the circumstances, but I suspect you might get told off were you to do something similar at an indoor wall!

I wonder sometimes if the failure analysis focusses to much on the device rather than the device/rope combination. Very Skinny ropes and inattentive/lax belayers don’t mix too well no matter the device

This is the policy at our local wall. 

"Therefore, we decided to ban all tube style devices that are smooth sided, and lack a directional breaking hand groove pattern, ie can be used in either axis or position. "

Nah, not while twin/double ropes are still a thing. Also, giving a direct belay off a GriGri is a right faff.

To the original question - I have been asked to demonstrate that I'm a competent belayer at every sport wall I've visited, however this has only ever extended to demonstrating a top rope belay. Lead belaying is an entirely different animal, particularly if your climber is heavier than you and/or if they are at all nervous about being above their last clip. Being anything less than entirely comfortable using an ABD will just complicate matters further. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen students at the university wall near me holding down the cam on the GriGri to get out slack quickly and failing to release it after.

Nothing beats regular fall practice to ensure your lead belaying is on point. 👌🏻

There are a great many skills that it would be really useful to be able to practise in a controlled environment indoors, but are fundamentally incompatible with liability insurance. I suspect most sport walls are making policy decisions that are driven more by the demands of their insurers than by any empirical observation of what counts as 'safe'.

Which is ironic given that it's entirely possible to set a lead route that is objectively dangerous! I was at an indoor wall before Christmas where the crux of the route was set on a small roof with third clip just over it - the draw and hold locations meant that you couldn't avoid having your leg behind the rope as you popped up over the roof, so if you fell at that point you were almost certainly going to invert and smack your head on the wall. Our solution was to start with third already clipped, which as you can imagine didn't go down very well with the centre staff. Once we explained the concern they acknowledged the what we did was probably the 'right' thing (and it was what they would have done outdoors, which was our rationale), but their insurance directed to them to ensure that climbers used all the protection available.

Having used the Revo a number of times I’ll give you 3 reasons why the Revo isn’t nearly as good as you claim it to be. 
 

1 - They don’t like thick ropes. Having tried to teach people how to use this on some thick, climbing centre ropes (for toproping admittedly) the rope often has trouble getting through the device making it quite awkward to use especially when lowering. 
2 - the brake only engages when the device spins at a high enough rate meaning the fall itself has to be quite a significant drop. 
3 - this is basically a continuation of 2 I suppose but it’s also the biggest issue for me. People claim this device to be an assisted braking device however that’s not true as to allow the brake to work you have to NOT be holding onto the deadend. This is because the brake engages by lifting the end where the deadend comes out. To then disengage the brake you simply pull down on the deadend meaning that when fall occurs, if you’re holding the deadend as you’re supposed to be, the brake won’t engage because you’re holding it in it’s off position. I’ve demonstrated this a number of times while on the ground by getting someone to yank on the live end really hard. If I’m not holding the deadend yes tbe device will lock (after a fair amount of rope has gone through!) but when we repeat the test with we holding the end, the brake never engages and I just hold the mock fall. 

Agreed, this is common to many devices, the GigaJul is far worse in that regard, it's completely unusable with fat gym ropes.

I consider this a plus. The brake only engages where there's been a major screwup and the rope is paying out over 4m/s. Otherwise it functions exactly as a tube device.

Agreed, it's not an 'assisted braking' device at all, it's a 'safety backup' device. If you're using the device correctly, the brake will never engage. It's only if you've screwed up and the climber is falling a significant distance without you holding the rope that the safety mechanism kicks in and halts the fall. Again, I consider this a big positive of the device.

If they could find a way to easily manually engage the brake to hold someone working a sport route, and have a bit more friction in normal usage (the pulley mechanism means it's quite slick)....it would be perfect. 

For me though, as someone who has experienced a fainting belayer, and some near misses with GriGri lowering gone wrong, I insist on my belayers using it while indoor climbing. 

No, assisted-braking devices (ABDs) should not be mandatory:

1. Because, contrary to the OP, they are not "self-locking" and also have serious potential risks, particularly when lowering
2. Because belaying with a tube device is arguably easier for novices to grasp than, e.g., a Grigri and several other devices, and tends to cultivate good belaying habits
3. Because tube devices are used in other areas of climbing, e.g. trad, and climbers need to be able to practise using these
4. Because tube devices have a number of applications for instructors/instructed groups
5. Because allowing climbers to use the type of device they are most familiar with is safer than forcing them to use devices they may be less familiar with
6. Because of the prohibitive costs of ABDs (e.g. £15 atc vs. £65 Grigri).

There are other arguments, too, but that should be enough.

I love my gigajul. I don't doubt it'd be unuseable with fat gym ropes but with the 10mm rope I lead indoors with its great. Easy to check it's engaging prior to starting and it locks up everytime. Also like that I don't need multiple devices to be familiar with and I can use it with halves to trad, can use it to abseil etc. When my partners take a fall the dead rope just stays dead in my hand and the device engages straight away. I've watched the videos about its faults but it would seem all devices suffer faults, and some responsibility has to fall on the user. 

I used a standard tubular device prior to buying it, and was sport climbing in some chossy quarry with my much more experienced friend. He took a totally unexpected fall on a route I'd never imagine he'd fall off. At that point I decided that I'd rather some back up when I'm holding a freinds (or anyones) life in my hands 

Given that the Grigri has been a popular choice among sport climbers for about 30 years now, what's your personal pet theory as to why it hasn't already happened?

My own personal pet prediction is that it's never going to happen while significant numbers of climbers are still climbing trad with two ropes, nor while it's still useful to be able to abseil on a doubled rope with a minimum of faff.

Or until assisted devices become the norm for trad. I suspect we shall then look back with horror at unassisted devices.

I believe that in the US where they often climb trad on single ropes ABDs are sometimes used.  However trad in the UK usually means double ropes. There are ABDs such as the Gigajul which can be used with double ropes, but it appears to be recommended that they are used in manual mode because it is difficult to control the ropes independently in assisted mode. Perhaps a device will come along which overcomes this, but until then the requirements of trad are probably different from indoor and sport.

Which brings me to the point that this debate has overlooked that people use indoor walls for different purposes, and climb differently. Some are pushing their grade and falling off a lot, and for them an ABD, probably a Grigri, makes sense. Others climb as if they were climbing trad, which is probably their main focus, and seldom fall.  They probably hold fewer falls in a year than the first type might do on a single route. For those, it probably makes sense to belay (and hold any falls which might occur) with the device they are most familiar with. 

Having said that, I usually use a Clickup when climbing indoors or on bolts outside.  However this is mainly because it is easier to hold a resting climber and to lower them off.  The Clickup works in a similar way to a tube device so there is very little new to learn. I've never used a Grigri and wouldn't know where to start. I'd be worried if a wall were to insist on me using one.

For all climbing and mountaineering?

I have thought about getting an ABD for indoor and sport. That means having two different systems, unless I'm going to use an ABD for trad and alpine mountaineering. That's the downside for me.

It's not just a question of modernising, as generally I find modern equipment lighter and better. 

I've also updated my abseil method a couple of times when I  found a better way to do it. 

So, I'm always on the lookout for progress. But, as far as belaying and abseiling goes, I've got methods that work well and an ABD seems like a major reboot for all of this.

On an abseil in particular I like to check and double check, which may not be so easy with an ABD where it's all hidden.

This isn't the ludditism that some posters imply.

That's what's put me off the Grigri. It is very different from a tube device, and as I only occasionally climb indoors or sport I doubt I'd make much use of it so it doesn't seem worth it. However there are ABDs, such as the Clickup or Megajul, which work in a very similar way to tube devices so there isn't so much of a learning curve. I use a Clickup for indoor/sport and a Reverso for trad. I don't mind having separate devices as I usually know beforehand which style of climbing I'll be doing so I only need to carry one with me.

I don't think an autolocking belay would prevent this.

The bolts are so close indoors that once you are high up the rope stretch means you're always going to pass a couple of clips. Not to mention a reasonable bit of slack in the rope.

Also, you know you're not going to pull the bolts out the wall indoors, so to save your neck I'll step away from the wall a little bit. So another indoor only difference that results in a longer (but smoother) drop.

I was actually about to say that I do wish walls would think more seriously about providing ground anchors for TR, though.

Lead belaying on an ATC, there's a very small chance I might choose that very moment to spontaneously combust. Significantly heavier climber on TR (not hard to find), I am going flying, and there's nothing stopping my partner until they land.

And I mean ground anchors, not just the two random sandbags per centre that you have to hunt down and then lug across the room. They are NOT heavy enough (have been known to fly, trailing sandbag...). 

and all BMW drivers are arseholes when they drive, since I’ve seen quite a few arseholes driving BMWs.

or maybe not.

But to answer the question. No, assisted breaking devices are not required. But bad belaying should be frowned upon, no matter what device they use. That being said, long falls are not always bad belaying. Thinking that minimizing fall distance is good belaying is quite often the exact opposite. Minimizing fall distance is only important if groundfall is likely… not the case indoors after the 4th clip (again generalization).

Maybe not ALL, no. Some are driving their boyfriend's car.

What was the reason given before the "therefore"?  Surely it's harder to screw up using a Bug as it works any way round?  Also very grippy, if anything the modern devices were designed to be less grabby!

If you have a big weight difference try an Edelrid Ohm.  Utterly transformative to my climbing as a very heavy climber, I have so much more confidence in my belayer if they're not going to have to catch 22 stone.

They can be a bit awkward for top rope use because the rope can get in the way, but I'd not go back to weight bags now.

I can see why walls would do this, but as I'm yet to find an ABD I actually like I'd rather they didn't.

But on part of your point that you aren't happy being belayed on a tube device, why should a ban be imposed to alleviate the need for you personally to have a conversation with your belayer about what device is used, and not climb if you're unhappy?  The climber-belayer relationship is based on mutual trust, and if you don't trust your belayer or their equipment that's for you to deal with, not the rule book.

Hi Neil, here's the full text. We made it through our induction with our ATCs then got pounced on by a floor walker 5 minutes later and lent grooved ones.

"As a modern wall we that we want to adopt the highest standards of technical safety that modern equipment can provide. Therefore, we decided to ban all tube style devices that are smooth sided, and lack a directional breaking hand groove pattern, ie can be used in either axis or position. Most of these tube style devices were designed in the 80’s and 90’s before ropes for sport climbing dropped below 11mm in diameter, and as the walls ropes are all sub 11mm, such devices are not suitable, or designed to be used with modern ropes or in situations where multiple falls may occur.

If you arrive with an old Sticht Plate, ATC, Lowe Tuber, or belay 90’s style with a Figure of 8, we will ask you to donate this to the Museum of Curiosities and provide you with a loan device at reception."

As a Bug user I can't say I agree, though it might not be great on superskinny ropes I'd be impressed to see a wall where the top ropes were anything other than fat and well-worn.  So I think that's quite unnecessary and a bit odd.

I'd agree that using a Fig 8 would be a bit dated now though!

Just checked on the BD website - the standard ATC is rated for use with a single rope from 9 mm to 11 mm. So the justification given by your wall doesn't seem fair. 

I gave up on my 90s one early in the 2000s due to not liking the amount I had to hold on abseiling on thin double ropes, I went to the original bent sheet Reverso then a BD ATC Guide, but presumably the ones they make now have been shrunk a bit to deal with modern thinner ropes?

I'd never heard of them being used to TR. How does that work? 

Tbh if I had one regular heavy partner I might but I climb with a lot of different folk (for pleasure, and used to do volunteering with a club) so it's too much of an investment to justify. Just wish more walls had proper ground anchors rather than (pretty light) bags. I was involved in an incident as a teenager where my partner almost decked it from the top of the wall as I didn't even have a sandbag and flew up half the wall - I am *very* aware of the dangers now! 

Interesting. I definitely still have a simple smooth ATC and it was bought in the 2000s or 2010s I think - really not all that long ago! 

Tie into the "wrong" end of the rope i.e. the end away from the wall.  The other end runs down the wall, through the Ohm on the first bolt and then to the belayer.  Remember the counterintuitive situation on friction - the further out they stand the more it will grab.  The rope running down the wall does get in the way a bit, but the extra confidence it's given me is immense.

Never knew that. Cheers.

The original ATC is definitely a bit too slick with a skinny single rope.  I had a 90s one too and I'd be v surprised if that one was rated all the way down to a 9mm single.  Perhaps the design has been updated a bit.  I found mine was hard work and felt a bit dodgy when I went from 11mm down to 10mm. (And my climbing partners have generally always been quite a bit lighter than me.)

I replaced it with a much more grippy DMM Bug that would also be banned under that slightly nonsensical policy. 

Fair enough about the fig-8 though, the brief fashion for using one of those as a belay device was always a pretty terrible idea.

I used to use the bug, but years ago I bought a 9.3mm sports rope and the information on the packing, led me to believe a different device would be a plan, so I bought an ATC XP, which I used for years until I got a pivot, which I still use along with a click up. A big thing for me with an assisted, is there is less to no slip when working a move, whereas with an unassisted, you always slip a little, which is frustrating.

It's interesting that the policy doesn't specifically mention the Bug despite it being one of the most famous "non-handed" (if that's the word, I mean works either way round) devices.  Perhaps they do realise.  Certainly I find it noticeably grippier than the ATC XP Guide I was using before, which to me was just a little bit too slick even before the teeth had worn a bit, which is unsurprising as on the Bug the rope is far more kinked than it is on a "handed" device.

The usual criticisms of the Bug aren't it being too slick, quite the opposite, more that it's too grabby and can stick a bit when paying out.

I lost control with an old ATC abbing down an impending wall on skinny rope with a pack. Just managed to aim for a ledge before conntrol completely went. Badly burnt hand. Very lucky.

I'm sure I've seen it used more recently by kids top roping in adventure groups. Sometimes they do backed it up by a 2nd belayer on the normally inactive rope. IIRC the small hole of an 8 used to be recommended as a better way using hole like the slit on as a Strict plate.

I’ve been dropped twice on top-rope by belayers using Jul type devices, that grabbiness really takes some getting used to. (So I’m quite unhappy that they are becoming standard kit for our mountain rescue team.) 
My alpine device is an old style Reverso but  it’s not super good with new ultra skinny ropes. I have a GriGri which is great for sports routes, RAD systems etc. but it’s rubbish on the fat fuzzy top-ropes at the climbing wall. I think that’s how the one drop happened - the crap ropes were just constantly triggering the assisted braking and the belayer was fighting to overcome it. 
When I went climbing with some friends recently they hadn’t used a GriGri before so stuck to the Fish they had. We were swapping around partners and ropes a lot but it was important that we didn’t get in a situation where somebody was on a rope with a belay device they didn’t know how to operate. 
So in conclusion I’d say no to mandatory ABDs in gyms, I’d much rather use the correct device for what I’m doing and the device that I know how to operate. Technique is much more important. 

Do you mean the actual Edelrid devices - like the MegaJul? 

I've had a megajul for a decade and use it more than any of the other belay devices I have - (ATC Guide, newer Reverso, DMM Pivot) - often because its the lightest but because it's to my mind super safe too. I don't quite see how you could drop someone top roping !? What happened in your cases?

A bit of a strange reply, but I'll humour it 

I'd agree it's not perfect, but it's also not much in the way of mitigation. It's mitigated by training, supervision and buddy checks. 

Thanks for the lesson, but I'm perfectly aware of how ATCs work.

Totally agree, although I'd argue that ANY failure is catastrophic. Use whatever device you are most confident/competent with unless being trained or supervised in another device

Yeah, the device wasn't at fault... the belayers were.

Sorry l had no intention of being patronising, just trying to explain my rationale as clearly as possible.

To me something that has an obvious feature which would add to the braking force that isn't interacting with the rope would feel like it was incorrectly set up unless I had deliberately done that. Without knowing how a Gri Gri was meant to be threaded I wouldn't get the same visual cue as with an ATC XP style belay plate (although you would notice something wasn't right quite quickly when belaying most likely).

My reference to the pictogram was that it can easily be used as part of a self check, or as a reminder when threading the device (I do the latter and then I give the live rope a tug to check it locks and visually check that what I think is the live rope is indeed tied to the climber's tie in loops).

The Bugette is still a thing too, though I doubt even the skinniest in situ toprope would fit.  (It's rated for 7.5 - 9.5mm)

Reading the above it sounds like they're actually quite pragmatic about it, so maybe it's just a bit clumsily worded.  Like it's a rule written to back up the floor-walkers if they want to pull someone up on it rather than a rule written to be rigidly enforced at all times if you see what I mean.

If you thread one backwards you get less friction, yes.  It still works though as it still creates a reasonably significant kink in the rope.  I've deliberately used them backwards when belaying small kids, as sometimes there can be too much friction the other way on thicker ropes and you end up having to pull the live rope out to lower them.

Yes once with a MegaJul, once with the Jul2.  Drop is probably a bit of an exaggeration, but I hit the deck from head height (maybe 2m?), no injuries, just a change of pants needed. The first time was a fat n’fuzzy climbing wall rope that the Jul was finding super easy to grip so that the lowering was really jerky. In an effort to get me moving again the belayer pushed her thumb up hard and rather than a smooth, gradual release it went from 100% braking to 0% instantly. The belayer had her hand on the break strand but some slack shot through and as she braked the Jul grabbed again and lifted her ‘soft catch’ style, but I wasn’t 3 bolts up. 
 

Second time I didn’t know the belayer, I don’t know exactly what he did but again he wasn’t familiar with the device and the feeling was the same - slow decent, jerk, fast decent. This time I bumped a ledge so again not a big fall and no injuries. 

You can call it user error, but it’s caused by them being tricky to get used to and to use smoothly. I think the grabbiness/difficulty to smoothly descend is well know about, which is why you can reverse it to counter the problem when abseiling. 

I’m not outright calling them bad belay devices, but I’m not convinced that they’re the best things to put into a beginners hands or even force an experienced belayer to use when they visit a wall if they’ve never used one before.

I thought that the ATC XP was intended to be used either way (much like the original wild country VC), giving you a choice of high or low friction modes.

Used to love my VC, although with a heavier partner I have now transitioned to grippier devices. Thinking back to when I started, I preferred a fig-8 to a sprung sticht plate as it was smoother both taking in and paying out (top route use only in those days).

Having seen lots of climbers over the years my experience mirrors the comments on this thread, which is that most individuals have a strong preference over what device they use. As a floor walker I would much prefer (with some exceptions, like waist belaying) that you correctly use a device you are confident and familiar with, rather than be forced into using something unfamiliar that opens you up to making mistakes.

I have seen serious falls with both friction and locking belay devices, so don't consider either to be failsafe. The only example I can think of where I might insist on locking would be an uncontrolled epileptic belayer, not a condition I'm familiar with, but anyone medically fit to drive I would consider ok to belay on a friction device.

Lowering is certainly the most cack-handed aspect of pretty much every ABD.  I've always lowered with two hands down on the principle that you should always have one hand fully holding the dead rope and never let it slide* (that's how I was taught and how I am most comfortable).  I can't think of a single ABD where you don't need a hand to release the device and thus have to slide on lowering.

Thus yes I'd be concerned about a novice dropping someone on lowering, probably more so than them letting go if they fell off.  I seem to recall when accidents do occur on Grigris that this is mostly how they do (and then they try to stop the fall by instinctively pulling the lever hard, which doesn't work, hence the Grigri+ that locked up if you did that).

* Except when paying out as that's impossible, but it's a very quick slide with much less risk of losing control.

A Click-Up is really foolproof lowering.

I got dropped being lowered by a beginner using a Grigri. 

I now teach beginners to belay me using a Smart, not had any problems yet.

Click up also good but I prefer a Smart

I'll have to give one a go.

I have to say that my local wall has ground anchors (pull a maillon attached to an eyebolt in the concrete up through the floor padding) available for every route, barring 4 for which ground anchors could pose a trip hazard, and so sandbags are supplied there. I have to use ground anchors with my partner as I'm a lot bigger & heavier (read: fatter!) than she is, so they're very welcome. I'd kind of assumed most walls would have a similar arrangement.

They're what I learnt with but I've climbed in an awful lot of walls and sadly the sandbags seem to be more popular. They're just not heavy enough (and yet still pretty unfun to drag across the room). Apart from when clueless people trip over your tether (thankfully not had that in the UK - it almost pulled the dead rope out of my hand), ground anchors are definitely better! 

How do they intend to put your Italian hitch or waist into their museum?

I suspect within 10 yrs, indoor rope climbing will cease to exist, or be purely top rope autobelays. For litigation/insurance reasons, which surely is the driver behind this. 

imho, the only way to stop this would actually be to mandate that belayers pass a test with a tube device, so prove their competence, and maintain skills, rather than going down the ever increasingly complex device/setup route.

ps. A ‘reverse threaded’ grooved ATC just becomes an ATC. 

A source of more accidents at least locally is people taking big ground falls because they think they're attached to an autobelay , when in fact they've forgotten to attach anything! I personally find this incredible, but it happens with painful regularity.

How to stop people doing mind-bendingly stupid things is difficult via demanding this piece of equipment or the other. The only way round that is culture, making a lot more 'second checks' of setup and accepting to be open to stopping someone else doing something stupid.  I've seen enough bad belaying with all sorts of devices.  Having said that I'm less comfortable than I used to be with someone belaying with a non assisted device .

That doesn't work for steep routes though, autobelays here would lead to claims against games of human skittles.

I suspect that bit may have been slightly tongue in cheek.

We started using a clickup last year for sport & indoor lead. An unexpected feature is if you are half asleep and use it upside down it still works as an unassisted device with the obvious caveat that it won't auto lock any more.

However it doesn't like one of our ropes at all, its a bit sticky at times.

In my experience it's rare and mostly older walls.  I suspect it's not favoured because (a) most people don't need it, and (b) there's an extra cost to testing and certifying it all.  And the Ohm makes it a bit redundant anyway (though it'd not surprise me if there was a wall out there that didn't allow them for some reason or other).

Yes floorwalkers are a good idea for climbing walls. My local wall is characterised by pretty minimal supervision and it's pretty daunting to be surrounded by people who have little grasp of the basics. And no matter how diplomatic you when pointing out possible errors, you will make enemies. A friend of mine has  given up. Faced with a campaign of retribution after pointing out some basic tips ,his at attitude to climbers decking on a line next to him is now 'carry on climbing'. As they say ' do not cast your pearls before the swine!'