UKH

Bothies increasingly being used by commercial companies, according to the report- be a shame if they are, gets away from the ethos of what bothies are

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-37099406

Has anyone had experience of a commercial venture using bothies (either as a bothy goer or as a "customer" staying in a bothy?)

In reply to Pids:

Where does an educational provider (e.g. an outdoor centre) fit into this - do they count as commercial?

In reply to Pids:

There are quite a few ML and MTA providers in Snowdonia who regularly use Dulyn as part of the expedition element of training and assessment. Some bring in loads of coal, tidy up and carry out any rubbish they find. Others rock up and take over the place without much consideration for current or future users.

I've given up staying in Welsh bothies, other than the handful of times I've done work with TV/film productions there (with cooperation of the MBA)

In reply to richprideaux:


Seems a shame they are abusing the bothies then, even those tidying up and removing rubbish (although these should be second nature, albeit their should be no rubbish there)

From the Bothy Code:
Respect the Restriction On Numbers

Because of over crowding and lack of facilities, large groups (6 or more) should not use a bothy nor camp near a bothy without first seeking permission from the owner.

Bothies are not available for commercial groups.

In reply to SenzuBean:


I'd say yes, they just have a different client base

In reply to Pids:

It feels outside of the spirit of bothying to me and could be quite risky for the guide/company using the bothy.

You cannot rely on the bothy being unoccupied, nor can you predict who will be there. Guide walks into bothy with girls school group in to to find a stag do underway...

It would be understandable for a landowner to want his cut if he were to find out that a commercial group were making money using his bothy.

In reply to Pids:
Was quite surprised to find more than one guiding company quite openly offering paid trips to bothies.

In reply to Pids:

Never actually come across this at a bothy. Think I'd be having words with the leader of any commercial group and suggest they cough up a few quip to MBA funds.

Overcrowding by large group without the owners permission is more of a problem. Having said that I've not had any trouble getting a party to budge up.

In reply to richprideaux:


I know that some centres (very well known and regarded ones) - that occasionally use bothies during the winter, when camping and snowholing are precluded but have been advertised as part of the course content.
Personally I think this is okay, but I see how it could set a precedent that could lead to peak season use by less educationally focused outdoor centres, and how that could lead to overcrowding.

In reply to SenzuBean:

I too have used a bothy during a winter course, when conditions were unsuitable for snow holing. Guide plus 3, no one else there. We left more wood/ coal than we carried in. Additionally it was an excellent way for the guide to teach us about bothy etiquette etc.

In reply to SenzuBean:


Even though it is explicitly not allowed? Unless of course they've asked and been granted for permission.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


I don't know whether permission was sought (I wasn't on the course that went to the bothy). Also I refer you to this recent page by the BMC:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/national-trust-activity-licence-update

What is ‘commercial’?

The Trust is currently considering any activity on their land where money is exchanged for a service to be commercial. The activities happening on Trust land that the BMC and its members are concerned with will frequently be within Open Access land boundaries where there is a legal right of access on foot for recreational users. Commercial users – anyone who “engages in any activity which is organised or undertaken (whether by him or another) for any commercial purpose” do not have a right of access to Open Access land.

However, DEFRA [Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs] has provided additional guidance on the meaning of ‘commercial’ on access land and state in an information note on general restrictions that: “Activities organised for promoting or teaching an adventurous outdoor activity are also unlikely to be undertaken or organised for a commercial purpose.”

The BMC strongly supports a view that the vast majority of provider work falls within this definition with a primary purpose of educating students, building skills to encourage further participation in outdoor activities and teaching an appreciation of the landscape and environment.

I thought that this definition was the common one, hence why I said I thought it was okay. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but it doesn't matter anyway since I don't run anything that would fit any description of commercial

In reply to Removed Usersimonridout:

Why would you need to be taught Bothy etiquette? at the very least there are signs in the place telling you to keep the place tidy, take your rubbish away with you. Not to chop the tables up for firewood etc ; )

In reply to Pids:

There's a statement on the MBA site:
http://www.mountainbothies.org.uk/news-general-item.asp?item_id=904

Use of bothies by commercial organisations.

16/08/2016
...
Daytime visits to bothies for lunch etc. are not a problem nor is seeking shelter in the event of a genuine emergency. It is planned overnight stays by commercial groups that are not permitted. We therefore hope that, by providing proprietors and employees of outdoor activity businesses with a better understanding of the difficulties that can arise when they stay in MBA maintained bothies, they will in future make alternative arrangements for overnight accommodation.

In reply to SenzuBean:
bothies are used with the owners permission and where MBA in accordance with the MBA code. Consequently a large party should seek the owners permission irrespective of whether they are commercial or not. I would say anyone taking payment or being paid for an itinerary that uses a Bothy is commercial.

I have met a commercial provider running own staff training/jolly from a Bothy with 20 people in residence!

Which is obviously wrong, I don't know where I stand where it is one or two clients with one instructor out of season midweek, not a systematic regular occurance, in a remote Bothy and not an advertised.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

in our midweek scenario the weather is presumably so mank that other users wouldn't be put out. sounds like some operators are taking the piss. Who is advertising?

In reply to alasdair19:

There's one that shows up on a fairly obvious Google search, although interestingly the page has gone 404 at some point in the course of this afternoon...

In reply to Pids:




There seems to be a perennial issue affecting 2 Mid Wales bothies, namely their use by organised DofE and school groups. At best they get the youngsters to camp outside and use the bothies for cooking etc, or even just stay in the bothies. At worst, the instructors/ assessors/ teachers stay in them while the kids camp outside, sometimes in groups of 20+. The fact that the adults concerned also drive their cars and minibuses on forestry roads to and from the bothies - as well as go to the pub in them in the evening, leaving kids unsupervised - is simply the icing on the cake. (Such driving is actually illegal and is without insurance cover as normal vehicle cover is not valid for off-road use).

School usage is often by special schools or private schools who sometimes bring severely EBD children and teenagers to stay overnight at the bothies. Such groups have been known to turn genuine bothyists away by saying that they cannot guarantee their safety as some of the youngsters can easily become violent.

This is not how bothies should be used; it's not what they're for. The number of wrong messages and appallingly poor examples being given to the youngsters by doing this is one thing, the 'abuse' of bothies by folk who you'd expect to know better is something else entirely. Reporting the groups involved seems ineffectual, as they simply move on and use other, non-MBA bothies in the locality for a while until the dust settles and then they start again.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Quick Google of "mountain training bothy" brings out loads of companies advertising openly bothy trips. One even makes a note about a max 1:4 leader to client ratio because of "bothy ethics"

In reply to Ramblin dave:


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ohgfM7FDKrkJ:www.abacu...

In reply to Dave Williams:

has their been any formal complaints to mltuk who regulate and licence ml providers?

Also the ami are starting to develop a professional standards system many companies have a member heading them up there may be leverage there?

dissapointed at the naughty kids trips. which companies are involved?

In reply to Dave Williams:

That's interesting, as I had a funny experience in a south Snowdonia bothy years back (http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=314311&v). I've since wondered if that was two teachers/staff and two EBD (if that's the right word?) students.

In reply to Dave Williams:

Totally unacceptable to use a shared facility such as a bothy in that way. If you can work out which local authority area the children are from you could probably raise this as a safeguarding issue as the teachers/staff have no way of knowing who else is using the bothy and children or vulnerable adults should not be sharing sleeping areas with staff or strangers. Probably worth referring to the council where the bothy is as well.

In reply to GrantM:


That's ok. Corryhully is pretty miserable. Might put some of the paying clients ever going to another bothy

In reply to Pids:



On a couple of occasions I have met 'commercial' groups. In one case it meant a pretty cramped bothy, but then again you expect that anyway. More wood for the fire and a bit more variety to the conversation (and drink), so overall we were glad to have them there. In one case the organiser of the group offered to leave if we weren't happy with them staying (though it was fine with us).

I can certainly think of a few open bothies that get so little use that a commercial group staying is probably a benefit compared to the bothy standing empty for months on end. On the other hand, there are a few that are busy enough with normal visitors. I guess the ban is a good thing overall, but a discrete and knowledgeable commercial group leader should probably be able to get away with a midweek visit to a quiet bothy and not cause any problems.

In reply to Mike Peacock:

Your experience was indeed interesting and fits the general MO of an EBD school visit, so I would concur with your suspicions. The staff:student ratio was right, as was the fact that one staff member was older. They also seem to work to a maximum of 2 kids on a visit. Severely disturbed youngsters are usually taken out on their own by 2 staff members.

I presume the bothy you refer to is Penrhos, which has had it's fair share of problems with such visits in recent years. The bothies I was referring to are further south, in Powys and Ceredigion, both MBA and other. One commercial venture from Shropshire has long organised such extra-curricular trips in South Snowdonia/ Mid Wales for its EBD 'service users'. They currently use a twin-cab 4x4 to access the bothies, which they also use to access remote wild-camping spots, usually on tracks with no vehicular RoW. Their calling card is that they always light a big fire, either outside the bothies or in the wild camping spots. The amount of clearing up that's done before leaving is haphazard at best and may be influenced by how co-operative the students are when they are packing up to leave. Occasionally the bothies are left in a right old state.

Sadly these warnings by the MBA re. misuse of bothies are nothing new and seemingly have fallen on deaf ears as far as many commercial groups are concerned. However, the comment left at the end of this 2009 article is both interesting and very relevant in this instance: http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2009/10/25/bothy-group-issues-plea-to-comm...

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

Its also not an MBA bothy, but is owned and managed by the Glenfinnan Estate, and its highly likely that the company in question has been using it with the permission of the land owner.

In reply to Dave Williams:

Yes, it was indeed Penrhos. I hadn't realised these problems were so extensive, and that these groups behaved quite so appalingly. It flies in the face of the whole bothy ethos.

In reply to Dave Williams:
I'm all for getting EBD kids out and about, and I worked in a similar role myself (hence learning to climb) but I'm shocked that staff and presumably managers think it's ok to put such vulnerable young people in a shared facility like a bothy. It's unpredictable how they will react to members of the public in such close quarters.

We did on occasion use YHA hostels for trips, (when visiting cities) with the full understanding of the hostel manager, we insisted on sole use of sleeping accommodation for our young people, and seperate but adjacent rooms for staff. It would have been totally inappropriate for us to just book beds in the shared rooms in the hostels with Joe Public, both for the risks our young people might pose, and the risks to the young people. I can't see any way that use of a bothy could be different, as you can't pre book rooms in a bothy or expect exclusive use.

The amount of money these private firms get for looking after these kids, they should pay for exclusive use of a holiday cottage or one of many bunkhouses that can be hired for exclusive use.

Edit

I also don't care how badly behaved they were, we never left anywhere without clearing up after ourselves. As far as I and the rest of the team were concerned trips were treats, and our job was to help the young people to become respectful members of the community.

In reply to marsbar:

It's been a long term problem at the bothies concerned. The crux of the matter is the continued leaving of forest access gates open by forestry contractors.

In reply to Dave Williams:

I couple of weeks ago I got chatting to a large D of E group on Carnedd Llewellyn who said they'd spent the previous night in Dulyn Bothy.

In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

Any idea which councils children are involved?

In reply to SenzuBean:

Thats a very pertinent link when you consider the safety and etiquette issues encountered at lawrencefield with a national trust group.

In reply to Snoweider:


Aah. That makes sense. Didnt think Mike Pescod would risk Abacus' reputation by misusing bothies.

In reply to marsbar:


I think the MO will know.

In reply to marsbar:


As you might guess, such info is very well-guarded. I have tried to engage with the youngsters I've met but any conversation has always been stopped quite quickly by a staff member.

I can understand your frustration having once worked in the field. I also agree totally about the attendant risks to both service users and others. I have speculated whether managerial staff actually *know* what's really happening during such visits.

In reply to Dave Williams:

Perhaps a letter sent to all heads of children's services then?

Are the rules for Welsh both ies the same as the Scottish, in terms of no commercial use?

In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:


I couldn't agree more. A recent purge on unlocked gates in Mid Wales has resulted in a grinder being used on the locks/ chains/ barriers. It's assumed that this is down to private forestry contractors who don't want to be impeded by having to lock/ unlock barriers all the time rather than bothy users trying to gain vehicular access to a particular bothy. If gates were routinely locked every day, then the problem would probably disappear.

I understand that unlocked gates creates a similar issue with some Scottish bothies as well.

In reply to marsbar:

Good suggestion and yes, the rules are exactly the same.

In reply to Dave Williams:

Whilst I'm not disagreeing about unlocked gates being a problem, it does shift the blame from people who should know it's not allowed to drive and do it anyway. Just because the gate isn't locked doesn't mean it's ok. Hardly setting a good example.

In reply to Glyno:


Yes, the MBA is well aware of such use at Dulyn. As I said, anecdotal and bothy monitoring visits both suggest that this type of use is endemic in North and Mid Wales. I understand that concerns have been previously raised directly with the DofE at a regional level; seemingly to little effect judging by your recent encounter.

In reply to Mike Peacock:

Mike is it ok if I include your experience in the letter?

In reply to marsbar:

I agree, it's an appalling example to set and goes against the very ethos of bothies providing shelter in remote locations. Natural Resources Wales will contact the police if they have firm info and the police are then prepared to issue Section 59 notices. In addition, the local CPO does visit the bothies for monitoring purposes, although this is a blue moon type of event.

In reply to marsbar:

Sure. It was from 2008 so not very recent though.

In reply to Mike Peacock:

Ah ok.

In reply to Dave Williams:

Time to start letting tyres down.............

In reply to Dave Williams:

>I understand that unlocked gates creates a similar issue with some Scottish bothies as well.

It is. Two Galloway bothies have been given up by the MBA due to continued misuse made all to easy because of unlocked gate. One remains a bothy run by the forestry, the other was demolished.

In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:

The Forestry had had enough of their equipment being trashed. There is a multigenerational tradition in Galloway of going up to the bothies for parties. They can be a little wild.

They use quad bikes to get around the gates as well down there.

Timber haulers try and get as many round trips in a day as possible, to do this they like the gates open.

When I was involved in the MBA we had constant dialogue with the FC and Police mainly re security but the gates remain open.