UKH

Someone who's never climbed in winter here - I'm told it involves something that's whitish coloured, cold and wet. And that it involves you going whitish coloured, cold and wet.

I'm looking at winter skills courses and I don't have a feel for the grading system (and yes, I have googled it). What sort of "feel" is associated with Scottish I/II, and to what extent are they climbing vs. belayed winter walking? I'm imagining that Scottish I ("snow gullies") is a bit like a grade 1 scramble, in that it's sort-of climbing and sort-of walking - is that right? What's II?

Thanks!

In reply to climbwhenready:

Generally the first 3 winter climbing grades (ie I,II,III) when mixed are on the same sort of ground the grade 1,2,3 scrambles cover but covered in snow, frost and possibly ice. When on hard snow or ice slopes grade 1 would be up to around 50 degrees, grade 2 60 odd degrees, grade 3 75 degrees. That said its not unusual to get really quite steep and awkward cornices and exit slopes at any grade (go around these where possible). Also as winter conditions vary grade isn't really a realistic guide to difficulty!

In reply to climbwhenready:


As an outsider with limited Scottish routes under my belt, I ca give you an idea. "climbing" starts are Grade IV or possibly in bad condition Grade III. At least those were the grades that I had to start actually climbing. Grade IV felt like gettin' up a not so stellar condition WI3. V about WI3+/4 and VI about WI4+. And not talkin' about Rjukan grades nor hero-ice found in the alps. More like brick hard non-Rjukan norwegian ice.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Grade I should never need 2 axes and you should be able to plunge the whole way (as opposed to swinging the axe). if its a ridge instead of a gully you may choose to hook the rock but using hands would be just as effective. Grade II those inexperienced or less confident may chose to use 2 axes though they will almost always be climbable with 1 (though you may feel the need to swing the axe once in a while). grade III will tend to have short sections of proper climbing interspersed with sections of walking, or it may be a continuous stepped ice fall mostle less than vertical. grade IV upwards will be probber climbing most of the way.

as to how they 'feel', it all depends on how comfortable you are moving on snow in crampons (and the conditions of the snow). i find being kicked into snow extremely comforting, others may freek out on steep snow...

certainly grade I/II ridges will feel comparable to their scrambling counterparts, all be it with the caveat of wearing crampons on rock. as for gullies its really hard to say how they will 'feel' as its so conditions dependant and how you cope with exposure/boldness.

In reply to Webster:
"Grade I should never need 2 axes and you should be able to plunge the whole way"
I disagree with that, what about the ice pitch on alladins mirror for example? I also think that cornice difficulties and exit slopes when hard neve may require the axe to be swung, plunging can be particularly ineffective in bone hard steepish snow / neve.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Agreed. Similarly the central ice pitch on Brown Cove Crags, which must be the most popular grade II in the UK.

In reply to HeMa:

Well meant though I'm sure it was, I should think that was about as understandable to the poser of the question as cricket is to an American or the offside rule to those of a feminine persuasion.

In reply to Martin Bennett:

Grading is always messy...

More so, when you talk about condition dependent stuff. Like ice or mixed.

In reply to CurlyStevo:



What ice pitch? I've never encountered one.

In reply to DaveHK:

Maybe he meant Aladdin's Couloir? An icy section seems to form about a third of the way up sometimes.

In reply to alexm198:


Maybe, still only needs one axe though.

In reply to DaveHK:
Yeah I meant alladins couloir. Johnny Dawes can climb mid E grades no handed it doesn't make it a good idea for your average punter to lead this way. Equally Alladins Couloir when in typical water ice nick is best lead with axes swung not plunged.

In reply to climbwhenready:
A grade I gully might be ascended by an adventurous walker who knew nothing about climbing, but it would feel quite steep, i.e. you can fall a long way quickly. Grade II usually means an icy or rocky steepening that a walker would not attempt and a lot of climbers would think twice about soloing (though many others would stroll up it). Grade III means ice-climbing, i.e. swinging the axes, but easy-angled or short - not sustained steep ice. That's a very rough approximation.

In reply to HeMa:
I've romped up grades IV's (Green Gully on the Ben in good but well used nick that really felt like an easy II stepladder) and climbed I's with an unconsolidated cornice or unexpected blank sections that terrified me compared to my average experience on a IV. Your simplistic line is plain wrong and pretty much any grade I in the UK may need proper careful climbing and a short section of vertical ice on a II is not uncommon.

In reply to CurlyStevo:



you must have done aladins couloir in extremely lean conditions, in which it would be far harder than grade I! iv only ever seen it as a banked out snow plod (or barren therefore out of nick).

i will refrase - any 'in condition' grade I should only need 1 axe and plunging.

thats not to say you shouldnt be climbing the routes like that, far from it, they are probably better lean in some instances. but if they have an ice pitch that requires swinging its not grade I territory!

cornices are a separate issue and are fairly irrespective of the route grade. i wouldnt grade a route based on the dificulty of a cornice which may sometimes be present, otherwise you could have grade I's which are graded as III!

In reply to climbwhenready:

There's too many responses to reply to individually but I get the picture. Thanks a lot everyone!

In reply to climbwhenready:

I guess what this debate shows and the take home message to the OP is that dificulty of a given route varies wildly depending on conditions reguardless of the grade, and that routes are graded assuming near perfect conditions (unless the guidebook states otherwise). in practice on a sub grade IV this generally means a substantial buildup of solid (but not bullet hard) neve most of the way up, with any ice features being fully formed. cornices can be a problem on any route of any grade, and can often be the scariest part of a climb!

In reply to CurlyStevo:


A rather silly example, you don't need to be JD to climb that pitch with one axe just be capable of standing in balance on two feet whilst you swing the axe. It's really very easy and should be well within the capabilities of most people.

In reply to Offwidth:


I'm still gonna claim it's pretty spot on. As with all winter climbs, they are condition dependent. And more often than not, the grade is correct when its in good nick.

Good hero ice WI4/+ will feel like a piece of pish compared to rotten WI3.

Same can be said about Scottish grades, albeit with pure snowed up rock dealios the difference can be less. For neve or ice dependent stuff, well a if the ice is rotten or the neve is loose pow... you'll be in trouble .

In reply to Webster:


And you shouldn't, well established routes are graded when they are in conditions. And less established ones, are generally graded on based what they were when they were climbed... and generally this is also when they were in good conditions.

In reply to Offwidth:

Vertical ice on a grade II is not uncommon......

What? I'd argue there are very very few grade IV's that would ever have a short section of vertical ice.

It might feel vertical but it would only be about 80 degrees.

In reply to climbwhenready:

No matter what the guidebook says, a winter climb can be up or down 1 grade purely on condition, it can vary through any season, as well as different winters. So always be prepared to work a little harder or pleasantly surprised at how much easier something was.

In reply to climbwhenready:

In my opinion grade I is steep walking, II is steeper mountaineering ground (but still needs a good head if soloing and can be very nasty in poor condition). III is climbing

In reply to Webster:
That's not vertical.

In reply to smithaldo:

no its overhanging!

In reply to Webster:
You don't go over the overhang at IV though do you? The ice he's on looks about 70degrees.

In reply to Webster:

I suspect that South Wales grades are a bit special as well, as that route looks excellent but rather goey for IV. But then I guess its not a three hour hike from the car like Coombe Gully is?

In reply to TobyA:

Long walk up or not, Comb is pretty easy!

In reply to DaveHK:
You seem to have mis interpreted my point I wasn't saying one axe wouldn't be sufficient for a grade I, I was commenting that grade i's may have sections that would be far better lead with the pick swung in rather than the pommel plunged!

In reply to Webster:

Nah the ice pitch is actually pretty common on alladins couloir, it's way more common than extremely lean conditions see the logbook Aladdin's Couloir (I)

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Fair enough, it was a little ambiguous.

In reply to TobyA:


To be fair I would say welsh winter grades in general are harder than their Scottish counterparts, partly down to the even more fickle conditions, but even a super fat 'the cascade' Cascade (V 5) would be far harder than say a typical 'hadrians wall direct'. even the route I linked to above felt harder at grade IV than Hadrians.

In reply to Offwidth:

give me one example of "a short section of vertical ice" on a II

In reply to Webster:
Having done a fair bit of pure ice in Devils kitchen in good nick I'm fully agreeing. The curtain in typical nick would be V in Scotland with stubby screws in thin ice and a steep crux, even south gully seems pretty high in the iv grade

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Thought Curtain was IV,5?

In reply to Webster:

You've picked a soft route to do the comparison - Hadrian's felt like a IV to me, certainly no tech 5 on it. Going direct up The Cascade on the Ben is a much steeper pitch. Water ice or cascades often feel harder than snow ice routes in good nick.

In reply to Webster:

I don't really buy that the welsh routes I've done are harder for the grade that the Scottish ones, the lakes routes I've done often are, even when in good nick. Examples to follow...

In reply to Michael Gordon:
the curtain and the screen in Devils kitchen both get iv 4, I don't think there are many popular iv 4 pure water ice routes in Scotland that are that hard.

In reply to alasdair19:

Lots of frozen gills; Right Twin on two occasions I've done it when thin... I dont carry a protactor but for a few moves they were the same angle as steep IV. I never claimed it was normal but it does happen and vertical ice steps are fine for me cf some of the cornices I've worked through or round on a I.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Is that not purely because of their popularity? Climbing stepped out ice definitely makes things easier.

In reply to J_Trottet:


Indeed...

Try climbing a untouched WI4 and then ones thats pretty much all hooking and stepping on existing holes. Which ones the harder?

Well, prolly the more climbed one, as placing solid screws can be next to impossible .

In reply to climbwhenready:

It's great how many people have replied to a thread with "grading" in the title! Next time I have a question I'm going to call it "Bolt dilemma"

(very grateful though)

In reply to alasdair19:


goat track gully in some conditions, ie lean snow but thick ice

In reply to Michael Gordon:


i know, and thats the point. there are no snow ice routes in wales whereas there are quite a few classics on scotland, not just on the ben.

ive not done the cascade on the ben, but from looking at it i would say taking the line of least resistance (which is what most big ice routes are graded at) it is less steep and sustained than both the screen and the curtain in devils kitchen, granted its longer but the first pitch is very low angle.

In reply to Webster:

Nah, the Cascade on Ben Nevis is way harder than the Screen and the Screen is comparable to many Lakes grade III routes, e.g. Trough Gully on Carrock Fell and there are a number of Lakes III routes that are harder than the Screen, e.g. Garden of Eden on Green Gable (which is actually lots harder).

In reply to LakesWinter:

Ok, here's some Lakes routes with grades and comparable Scottish routes/grades next to them............

Garden of Eden, Green Gable Lakes III, Scottish IV 5, Harder than Pygmy Ridge, Fingers Ridge and other popular IV mixed routes.

Bottleneck Blues, Gable Crag, Lakes IV 4, Scottish IV+ 5

Raven Crag Gully Raven Crag Lakes III, Scottish IV 4, harder than Italian Right Hand but not as steep as the Curtain or tech 5 ice.

Chock Gully Lakes IV 4, Scottish IV 5 or 6. Very safe but very hard moves.

Great Gully, Wastwater Screes V 4 is fair for the right branch but the lower gully is a joke at grade III.

I gave up on Dove Crag Gully but it's way harder than the IV 4 in the guidebook.


The Lakes ones that are fair at the grade tend to be the very popular routes, like the Great End gullies and Red Tarn routes and popular water courses like Newlands Hause and Launchy Gill.

You also need to take subjective views as well depending on that person's own experience.

Michael Gordon,

What is a grade I romp to a grade IV/V climbers may still be utterly terrifying to a winter walker so to use the phrase "steep walking" could be deceptive and potentially dangerous. There are plenty of grade Is which are high in the grade for both exposure, run out, and angle, even if they have very little to no technical challenges.

In reply to Milesy:

+1.
To the OP: you asked about grades I and II, not IV and V. In Scotland, grades I/II mostly are of two types: easy gullies and snowed-up scrambly ridges. One way to get a feel for what they're like would be to use logbooks>search for climb to check the pictures of some representative routes. I'd suggest these for a start:
(easy I gully) Number 4 Gully, Ben Nevis
(hard I/easy II gully) Number 2 Gully, Ben Nevis
(mid/hard II gully) Red Gully, Coire an-t Sneachda, Cairn Gorm
(snowed-up ridge, I/II in my experience) winter traverse of Liathach, winter traverse of Aonach Eagach.

In reply to rif:

Cheers, very useful

In reply to Webster:


Cobblers!

In reply to LakesWinter:

I've done both. I don't think there is a move on the cascade as hard as the crux of the screen (in devils kitchen) yet the cascade gets IV,5 and the screen IV 4. Also the ice on the screen is rarely that fat and normally only stubby screws will go in to average looking ice. Lastly most people know the cascade is very hard for a grade IV many people say its single pitch is harder than many of the grade V crux pitches on the Ben.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I have also done both. I did the Screen when it was quite thin and melty, about 6 months after doing Cascade and Cascade was way harder to second than the screen was to lead, just goes to show about winter grades really...

In reply to Offwidth:


But it's not II if there are unavoidable bits of vertical ice (at least not any bits higher than head height)! On most gills and the like you can just scramble around the side of bits like that otherwise it should be a much harder grade (or not be in condition - I backed off this last winter on St Sunday http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ReMJtV4DmNI/VLupYd-f9ZI/AAAAAAAAHes/x7zPI92lRr8/s... It was meant to be a I/II, but that's about 6 mtrs of steep climbing and it clearly wasn't II).

Who does? Which is why ice climber's vertical is actually about 70 degrees. Don't worry skiers are worse. Every steep bit that you have side slip has to be "at least 40 degrees!" It funny you boot packed up on the way up with out even taking your wrists out of pole loops.

In reply to TobyA:


Which is one of the reasons I carry an inclinometer with me when skiing... Primary it is to access avalanche risk though.

In reply to climbwhenready:

I've not gone from the top of this thread but there is a huge fundamental hole in all this talk comparing welsh/lakes & scottish routes. It is, IMHO, the most important factor for anyone wanting to winter climb/understand winter climbing.

<B Snow & ice form in different ways with each & every nuance in the weather so grades are fully variable. You have to learn to read the conditions not the guidebook grade. This is a massive difference from rock climbs which are fundamentally either dry or wet but holds won't change size or angle. B>

Grade I gullies can be death on a stick; not only when avalanche prone but also when there is no snow but a skim of black ice coating every rock; I had a few of these experiences (how can anyone climb grade III, let alone V? was what I remember thinking) in Wales & Lakes before finally being introduced to "proper" ice in Scotland by someone who knew what they were talking about.
Equally high grade routes can be a comparative soft touch because of the way they have built up; definitely the secret to staying safe & overachieving
Andy Nisbet has a reputation for sandbagging that I've never really understood as his "top tips" have been spot on in my experience. "Albertros (VI) is in grade IV nick" was spot on. Rains had sculpted great big bucket scoops for the feet which was a good job given the cobbled-together odd walking crampons we'd borrowed. In the legendary winter of '99 Andy convinced us to go do the equally legendary Fowler grade VII Test Department "The icicle is touching down, sounds a bit hollow but it's fine honestly". Well the ice was so good I was literally able to throw my picks in and avoid squashing my knuckles; anyone who had straight shafted axes will know exactly what I mean.

My advice is to read the conditions advice rather than the guidebooks to choose your destination. Then ask around for opinions. Grade I & II can be a lot as you suggested in the right conditions but rock hard snow ice and vertical unstable exits amongst many otherwinter hazards can all have monster consequences.

In reply to Mike Lates:

Well said Mike... in my own Uni club for our Scottish winter trips we used a local guide to the annoyance of our SU: they didnt get that the extra expense paid dividends with the best advice available. Winter climbing is expensive enough as it is and frustrating if you hit the wrong venues at the wrong time. The point I was trying to get over was grades can be almost meaningless in either direction too low in bad conditions or too high if a popular route has had loads of traffic.

In reply to TobyA:

My 70 degree ice is something like Idwall Stream... thats fair enough for tech 2. Im an engineer so my vertical ice on a II might be in the low 80s but no lower. Not all icefalls will be avoidable (just like sometimes a nasty cornice occasionally leads to doing a route twice, up and down) and steepness isnt everything some of the hardest things Ive done involved skittering past a lowish angle blank section.

In reply to Offwidth:

But is it in Grade II condition?

As has been pointed out quite a few times already, the grades can vary greatly given different conditions for all winter climbing.

The general idea is to grade well established routes in norma conditions... and naturally newer (harder) routes generally only get done in really good conditions.

In reply to HeMa:
Well not according to the broad definitions but how does the newish climber know that? As such any winter grade should be only be regarded as a very rough guide unless someone you trust knows the current conditions. I also suspect lots of less popular IIs are only that grade in exceedingly rare conditions, having explored away from classics in a few areas I visited a lot. Bad grading by good climbers who should know better doesn't just happen on rock.

In reply to Offwidth:


Beats me, which is why people gave definitions of grade this and that.

And by definition Grade IIs should really not contain 70 degree ice... III could, but not much longer than body length.

In reply to HeMa:

As an aside, I can think of loads of V's that don't contain any truely vertical ice. In fact the list of those that do would probably be shorter!

In reply to DaveHK:

Well, considering that there really aren't that many true iceclimbs in scottland... you're pretty much spot on.

True vertical ice in sustained lengths seems to start at Grade VI or harder.

In reply to HeMa:

There are tones of true ice climbs in Scotland in a good year!

In reply to climbwhenready:

As many have already mentioned, the conditions routinely mess with any attempt at objective grading. Short lengths of climbs at II or III can often present with extremely steep sections. At V or VI there is just a lot more of it. When you pull yourself over the first steepening with a vertical lip on a V then it is quite normal to find that there is another one just up ahead. When you do the same on an unfilled and unconsolidated cave pitch on a III then you have done all the hard work and the rest is probably I.

In reply to DaveHK:

organ pipe wall down Glen orchy way.
...

wet spring start to echo traverse, mega route X
oh hang on

In reply to Milesy:


That's why it gets a grade. Still steep walking!

In reply to Howard J:
When we did Goat track gully it was two axes territory also. There was an unavoidable near vertical step about 4 metres tall

In reply to climbwhenready:

My advice would be to plan your trip, preferably when you know 'it' might be in nick, try a grade I and then a II if all seems good.

Then answer the question for yourself!

In reply to climbwhenready:

Poor old OP. Posted what appears to be a simple question and initially got quite simple and clear answers. And look what he got!

In reply to Dave Perry:

Nonsense... he knows what to do and has lots of directly useful information including that winter grades are very variable dependant on conditions. A good beginner thread useful for others in the future.

In reply to Mike Lates:

Brings to mind South Buttress Gully on Blabh Bheinn. Looking back, that pull over the little roof must have been pushing tech 4/5?

Can't be many other grade II's you've fallen off, eh Mike?!

In reply to Offwidth: well, apart from worrying the op that you find vertical ice on grade II. &#128514;

In reply to smithaldo:
All the more reason to seek the advice of the experienced.....steep ground does happen at times on some routes labelled as IIs so why hide the fact? Some other occasional scary problems with II's include: partly consolidated conditions on what would be pleasant 50 degree stuff if it was solid (done NC Gully that's normally an easy II a few times like this); or damp sections at the top of steeper water ice as it blends into the snow such that the pull onto easier ground is tricker than the steep bit; or buried belays (wasted too long at times getting cold, digging in hope for something in the rock as a buried axe or deadman snow belay looked crap ....and when moving together may have been safer).

In reply to Dave Perry:

Nah, it's alright, I'm used to UKC

In reply to climbwhenready:

Only way to sort this fella is go and get on some G1. Take X2 axes with you, make it count, then find a G2 and repeat. Yes its a mixture of asking people, reading guide books and experience just dont get hung up about it. I kinda think of it like a G1 is a steady careful plod where as a G2 is more thoughtful and respectful and making placements really count.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Likewise - Garagh Gully on The Ben. I have photographs of three GrIII pitches; one of which was sufficiently long enough to warrant a Tech. of III.4 yet it is more often than not a GrI!

In reply to drsdave:


That is getting more to the root of what the OP was asking about the 'feel'! Many Grade I present you with great swathes of high angled snow. Once it is stretching out below you, a considerable sense of exposure can be felt depending on the surrounding topography, but large sections of the slope may have exactly the same type of snow. There might be 20m of crusty and 3m of powder followed by 150m of firm consolidated snow-ice, none of which will test your intellect much. Steady careful plod. Once you get to Grade IV or V, on most of the route every few millimetres of the ice or rock ahead of you will draw your attention because your continued safety depends upon it. Looking down is an activity reserved for belaying the second or screaming for slack so exposure does not come on a linear scale when you have more important things to think about.

In reply to Andy Cloquet:

Have climbed Garadh Gully in such conditions and we found the second ice pitch to be quite tricky, or at least it was for the leader without ice screws as we had planned to go mixed climbing that day!

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Sounds a bit steep to me!

The old (1996 I think) Scottish Winter climbs gave a rough guideline (obviously for good conditions!) for technical grades on ice:

3 = 60 degrees, 4 = 70 degrees, 5 = 80 degrees or vertical steps, 6 = vertical

I agree with other posters in that the steepness always feels greater than it is in winter - perhaps something to do with the different body positions for rock climbing?

M

In reply to Mark Bannan:

Shame they failed completely to be consistent with the routes (think of almost any classic ice crux and you would add at least one to the tech grade).

In reply to Offwidth:


What do you mean by that?

In reply to Mark Bannan:
Are you talking up to on short sections as that is what I meant. Of course even then it can be steeper depending how the ice forms also are you talking adj or tech?

Mcofs seem pretty inline with what I said http://www.mcofs.org.uk/winter-climbing-guide-grades.asp

In reply to Nath93:



Yep, a classic case. Done it a few times and never had it like the original grade II from 1st ascent but still a classic. Have you got the pic of my axes left in the ice still? Lucky I dropped into the cave as the snow-cone colapsed rather than down the slope

In reply to Jim Fraser:

Don't forget the terrifying steepenings & cornices that frequently occur. Bad on any route but particularly when rest has been low grade; no. 2 Gully on the Ben comes to mind. Aonach Mor in particular is renowned for good ice then death defying ungradable exits, especially mid season before the bulk has consolidated.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Ah - I see what you mean, cheers.

I hadn't seen the M C of S website - I think it is a reasonable guide for maximum steepness (more likely to occur for short sections on icefalls), while the Scottish Winter Climbs gives a rough guide for mean tech grades of crux pitch steepness (more likely for gullies).

M

In reply to Offwidth:

Do you mean Wales, the Lakes or Scotland?

In reply to Mike Lates:

>Aonach Mor in particular is renowned for good ice then death defying ungradable exits, especially mid season before the bulk has consolidated.

tell me about it!

I led an absolutely awful one on Icicle Gully a few years ago (sh*te route; wanted Jet Stream but queue too long).
At one point, about 20 kilos of loose snow flopped on top of me, almost pushing me off.
I was about 30m out with a good belay but no good runners!
I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I tried calling for a top rope (just in case someone could hear me!). I managed to extricate myself without.

All useful experience, I guess!

M

In reply to Mark Bannan:

I don't think it matters that much. I agree with the MCoS defintions with the provisos for cornices etc but the tech equivalents listed above are wrong: its common in all 3 locations to get near vertical ice on a IV and that would be IV 5 according to the definitions and as I've said in my own experience (albeit less common) if its right I've climbed many a II 4 ice pitch in a gill or gully.

In reply to Mark Bannan:

Yes I should have written Roman numerals as I was referring to adj grade.....

In reply to CurlyStevo:

No bother!

M

In reply to Offwidth:

This talk of 'common' and 'near vertical ice' mixed with 'IV' is just BS and makes you sound like you don't have a clue what you are on about.

85 degree ice is relatively hard, especially more than 5 m or so and feels like 95 degrees rock climbing but it still isn't actually even that 'near vertical'

The problem with Ice Climbing is that the actual real-life incline of what one has climbed, compared to how steep it felt and that one then talks about, means that one's ego always takes a bashing.

In reply to Offwidth:

I've not climbed in Wales and Lakes in winter, so I was wondering if they were different to Scotland in this respect - cheers for the reply.

I guess I can recall perhaps 2 occasions (out of about 10 in Scotland) leading tech 4 when it felt steeper than that so I suppose it is fairly common. Living in Scotland has given me the advantage of waiting for routes to be in good fat condition, so that is probably also a factor - many of my hardest routes have definitely been amenable for the grade!

I think it may be less common to get this situation in gullies (mostly neve or snow-ice) than on icefalls (water-ice) where vertical ice can more readily form at Grade IV.

M

In reply to smithaldo:


Not sure that's true.

Here is the description in Scottish Winter Climbs (1996 Edition) for Grade IV ice routes:
"steep ice requiring some arm strength, from short vertical steps to long pitches of 60-70 degrees".

M

In reply to Mark Bannan:




I think the question is the definition of short... and I'd say short here means sub 5m.

Funnily enough, vertical ice and low scottish grades seem to be the "norm" here... Oddly enough, when talkin' about water ice, vertical in other than short steps means WI5 or WI6. The classic Juvsöylä in Rjukan has actual vertical ice on it for sustained lenghts... and It's given WI6... (albeit some might claim it's only WI5/+).

In reply to HeMa:


Definitely!

M

In reply to Mike Lates:

Aye it'll be there somewhere, I think you did a blog post and had a bit about differences in grades when it comes to winter routes.

One for me to go back and do again, think that was my third time in crampons!