UKH

Haven't got a clue where this should go so I'm plonking it here!

Whyever you did or do it are there others out there that have seriously done physical work? If so does the whole world of warming up, being careful, rest days, the 'study' of getting strong/fit seem a bit weird?

At 16 I went on a YTS into a big breaking/jumping/livery yard (posh horses!). Umpteen grooms from eclectic backgrounds, servants but competing to ride the best horses - just like climbers salivating over something classic! 7o hr a week hard labour, go sick - lose your rides, work your hours (ie 40 not 70) lose your rides, fail to keep up - lose your rides. Simple really, learn fast to work, really bloody work and in return ride a selection of horses like god's own sweet shop and take memories worth a king's ransom. I worked full time to 23, part time (with other jobs!) to 33. I used to teach young grooms to just ignore pain and work, you may as well as not because no-one ever comes back when they go off.

I remember that maybe out of 5 grooms, 1 lasts a yr in a hard yard, but I always felt the other 4 could never have been cuchi cooed through it, there was an inevitability to it, it certainly felt more like desire and tenacity than luck.

You never pass a builder's yard wirh lines of fellas swinging arms like windmills or watch (rural) delivery folk spend 10 mins stretching before flinging 20 kilo sacks (I also worked 2 summers feed delivery!).

As I get older I get the need to warm up, tell my daughter to warm up but there's this nagging little voice that whispers in my ear "Just do it, shed loads of it and your body will pick up, it'll scream blue murder and then toughen off."

Is it just me or are there others who've errr 'f3cking grafted' that think it's all a bit woo....? I know an 84 yr old still mucking out who has disregarded all sense and reason to do as he saw his life was to do, get up and work. He is 84 and still mucks out stables 6 days a week. God help a scrawny 16 yr old trying to mug him! I knew Ol' Tom till he was 82 still farm labouring - I left the farm, he may have gone on. Tom cycled everywhere very slowly but could still lift and easy carry 2 full feed sacks (30-40Kg). These folk have never once warmed up - that I can garauntee.

In reply to flopsicle:

I dont know.. what I do know is at 35 I've noticed I have to warm up.

i used to be able to hit an interval session straight off, maybe 0.5 mile warm up, now its a bloody right commotion to get the body ready. My recovery is also longer. I can still train hard but need to add the slower days that even 2-3 years ago I didnt.
i dont know if the science behind it supports it but anecdotally I've found it helps to warm up. Supposedly there is some science that says your lactate clearance systems get more efficient through the warm up. Not seen the papers that was just chats with sports scientists.

In reply to flopsicle:

What you have to figure is that how many folk get back / joint problems in domestic situations (eg. making the bed). I do a lot of physical work around our farm - and do not warm up. Climbing imposes very particular stresses and strains on us (especially if you're wall climbing) and it is beneficial to warm up, - there are occasions when you can't get onto ideal warm-up routes at some crags. That said, for the most part I don't warm up - on the ground - there's usually a soft lead-in to the days action available.

In reply to flopsicle:

Depends on the type of warming up you are doing I suppose. With distance running you want to aim to get to the start line sweaty with your aerobic energy system all fired up otherwise when you set off after about 3-5 minutes you'll be blown and badly performing while you wait for your body to catch up.

In sprint events you are having to use your muscles to their maximum potential to generate as much power as possible to go as fast as possible. Try this on cold muscles and you are going to tear something, also getting the brain nerve muscle connection going so you can generate as strong a muscle contractions as possible is important for speed.

The human body adapts to the stresses placed upon it. The people you refer to who were flinging around feed sacks and 'grafting hard' probably really felt it after their first week and then gradually adapted. If you asked them to move heavier loads or generate more power output they'd be as wrecked as anyone else.

Your body has a certain baseline amount of adaptation though probably from long periods of hard labour. I had a great uncle who was a carpenter all his life. He was frail at the end and wheel chair bound but he still had a grip like a vice when you shook his hand.

In reply to flopsicle:
I'm 35, and found that I was wrecked when I first started volunteering doing outdoor conservation a few years ago, so that I'd fall asleep on my sofa when I got home, and though it became easier over time, I still felt like things were easier after an hour or so of lifting or carrying or doing whatever it is, which makes me think it probably is a good thing to warm up, because as at the very least it will make things easier, and will probably help towards avoiding injuries. I dare say brick layers start off more slowly at the start of the morning before picking up speed a bit.

'You never pass a builder's yard wirh lines of fellas swinging arms like windmills or watch (rural) delivery folk spend 10 mins stretching before flinging 20 kilo sacks (I also worked 2 summers feed delivery!). '

I think they probably will be watching their backs and things, in how they're swinging the sacks, even if from the outside they're going all out at it. I don't know how I'd compare to the sack swingers, but for me the difference of a foot or so in how far something like a compost bag or some walling stone is swung/hefted, can mean I don't tweak my back or something else.

In reply to LeeWood:

How many people who work outdoors do, too. Some people I know who do conservation work will grumble about dodgy elbows if they're doing a lot of fencing over a few weeks, or of niggling shoulders etc more generally.

In reply to flopsicle:

Spent a while stacking rain soaked pallets in a yard all day every day. I definately felt easier half an hour in to the shift so there's your warm up.

Competitive sport you're trying to get the absolute max out of your body which isn't going to happen with cold muscles.

In reply to flopsicle:

At 48, I've now finished flying and taken up a post running a horse yard (40 of them). Very physical and although I've trained all my life, I've lost over a stone in the first month. First 3 weeks were hard, trying to get the work/food/sleep balance right..now I've got it, I feel fantastic.
This place is also a hill farm, with plenty cattle and sheep, so there's a lot of walking up and down fells also.
I too, came from a mind set of stretches before and after...I haven't done any lately and feel fine (too bloody tired post work to contemplate stretching
Sleeping like a log for the first time in my life and I can see my ribs for the first time in 30 years )

In reply to flopsicle:

I think the thing is that there will always be injuries, both through work and play. It's more whether the time given to warming up is significant enough over genes, will power and luck!

I suppose I worked at the extreme end of a physical job but play (climbing) at a very mediocre level. I suspect if I was a set higher up climbing I may have a very different take on it.

Still, fact is that if I arrived at work to a situation that required, I could and did leap out of a cold car to engage instantly at my physical maximum, or drop dinner to do so. Things such as recovering huge loose tarps over straw or hay in storms, pulling right horses cast (stuck up the wall), or physically catching a foal in the wrong place. I never worried about it, never held back, never got hurt. Every working day the first job was mucking out, this is done bent, shifting fair weights on forks and in barrows, and in commercial yards, needs to be done extremely fast. Warm up is 2 minutes getting the tools!

In reply to flopsicle:

I've had both office jobs (HR Mngr/trainer/) + outdoor jobs. (Scaffolder, tour/walking guide) and other stuff.

At 59 I decided to return to the UK and become the village Drystone Waller and Hedgelayer. I'm now 65 and when walling I shift around 5 - 10 ton of stone a day. I feel fitter than I've done for years. I feel I could crush stone and climbing tools with my grip now .

I am 100% that I cannot lift the heaviest stones first thing on a morning. So I do warm up but by lifting the smaller stuff first until I feel 'up to it'. Then I'm OK.

Luckily I don't feel tired at all, even on an evening. (just bragging there)

There was a study several years ago in the british army, which if my memory serves me correctly demonstrated that traditional warming up exercises did not prevent young recruits from injurying themselves during physical training.

That also ties in with comments made on this thread and from my own experience of being a scaffolder in my twenties. Certainly didn't stretch or warm up then!

I've met an 83 year old who is capable of extreme physical effort, and can still canoe white water and portage an 80lb canoe AND all the contents over the roughest portages in Northern Ontario in one carry. He doesn't look old or tough, and comes across as a gentle quiet unassuming man - which he is.

He's Fred Neegan a Cree hunter and guide on the Missinaibi River in Ontario. He's done it for his entire life and told me he has no intention of stopping. Needless to say he's a brilliant canoeist and can, and does canoe all day for several days when he needs to - and on white water.

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/DavePerry/Missinaibi%202014/P10207...

The link should show a picture of him.

In reply to flopsicle:

For many years I did a physical job (farming, scaffolding, general building work, dry stone walling) and went climbing/running, basically let my body dictate how hard I pushed on any given day. After getting run over (not recommended) I was told that I'd have limited time to continue physical work so I retrained and like much of the nation now spend my working day sat on my backside.

Most physical jobs aren't 100% effort all the time, on the farm for instance, depending on the weather hay time was ten to fourteen days of eighteen hour days but then you'd have a week or so of taking it easy.

Definitely need time to warm up these days. I need about an hour or so to get going but then can keep going for ages. The last time I cricked my back was a few years ago and it wasn't at the start of the job but on the next to last thing I needed to shift. It wasn't anywhere near the weight or size of stuff I'd been shifting, I just picked it up incorrectly.

In reply to flopsicle:
'Still, fact is that if I arrived at work to a situation that required, I could and did leap out of a cold car to engage instantly at my physical maximum, or drop dinner to do so'

That I think is where you're going wrong - I've had manual jobs and done a lot of pretty tough training, and they're not the same. For sure you can do a lot of work and get really tired, but training to your real physical maximum can involve pushing yourself so hard that you simply stop and puke, and can do that 'on demand'. I doubt that you are hitting those physical limits.
And I would likely need 20, 30 minutes of proper warm up to do that - my muscles would not perform to those effort loads early in a session

In reply to flopsicle:
curious stuff, who did you ride for? I lived and grew up by Authur Stephenson's yard, and before exiting the Uk lived middleham. Never had much to do with horse, but did do agri work for Stevvie though, but nothing like the lifestyle of the lads/lassie. An aunt of mine ran the hostel there, where they lived and ate etc.. so I knew a far few of them, handy mates if ever there was bother, you don't mess with a person who grafts like they do everyday!!

In reply to summo:

People in real life know but it's not for forums. I don't know why but it would feel wrong. What I loved from the riding point of view is that we took on youngsters from lots of great places rather than it being a more 'fixed resident' yard. Stallions stayed but when I was there it was very much youngster orientated so everything else moved on.

I worked 3/4 big yards in total. Well 3 big, 1 some would call big. Also about 3 other minor yards not including pony work. 1 yard I worked for many years and still view as real friends despite busy lives offering little time.

In reply to flopsicle:

Don't know about warming up but when I did the chainsaw course, after felling every tree, snedding and shifting it all, I'd do a load of stretches and moves. I realised is be bending with a heavy object and risking my back. The 3 lads on the course looked at me like I was nuts but I wasn't popping paracetomol by day 3 like they were.

In reply to RockAngel:

Nice one, I think I just moved a bit more gingerly at times to get myself through my CS31 (I think that's the name of it, the small trees one), I could feel it in my back at times as the week progressed.

Given another week I might have started to have back twinges which needed pills, but it was it was more of an awareness of aches developing.

In reply to flopsicle:


I think warm-up for climbing is averagely un-necessary below F6c. Where it really counts is in dynos and mono/bi finger pockets. Lifting sacks can be done in a fairly static style but a dyno calls for an impulse loading of undefined (rel body weight) force. As remarked folk sensibly lead in to peak efforts for a given session and all is well.

What I suspect irks some of us is that warm-up is commandeered by ego-hungry exhibitionsists to show-off at the crag.

In reply to LeeWood:

Usually walking there is enough.

In reply to RockAngel:

Would agree, the fittest I ever am annually is after 3-5mths through the winter working in the forest. Early winter I start with the beetle damaged, wind blown, snapped tops, which tend to be scattered, so it's a less intensive. Then the move cutting. It is rare though that I can drive or quad to where I cut, so generally there is always walking in with equipment or even just my day bag and fuel, if I have a kit dump there already. Which serves as a good warm up too.

I would say as novice my lower back ached, shoulders too, much of it is posture and the more you cut, the more relaxed you are and start to position yourself better, or even dropping the trees so they criss cross a little (taking care not to risk snapping one), that way they aren't quite so low to the ground.

In reply to LeeWood:

I would disagree, warming up, is critical if you want to do any sport for the long term without lay offs through injury, I don't know many over 40s who don't think they should have been more careful when younger, as the collective damage and wear & tear starts to show.

If your max grade is 4a, 6a, 8a then start out near or at your limit you are still working your body to max effort, only with cold muscles, ligament, tendons and that isn't good. Regardless of grade warmed muscle work better. The same with cooling down and stretching after. That said, plenty folk just stretch when cold simply standing there, thinking that helps, they might as well start climbing.

Lifting a sack from cold, is probably just as bad a dnyo, it is all neuromuscular recruitment, focusing on a maximum effort. (unless you know in advance the sack is only a few kilos). With a dyno you can build up momentum, energy with your whole body etc, with sack from a static stance, it's a cold start in all respects.

In reply to Dave Perry:

I find that common sense with regard to lifting works most of the time; what no amount of care can avoid is the wear and tear on knees and ankles through moving over rough and uneven ground for a lot of of the working day. Much more severe than you get on the average hill walk.

In reply to Timmd:
Cs31. I was doing proper boogies! Prancing about and looking rather silly! Glad I did it.

In reply to flopsicle:

if we have planned hard work/training we can warm up.
sometimes the hardest work we do is with no warm up at all and that can ache next day.

In reply to flopsicle:

I worked with horses from 15yrs. Cycled to work every day - 6 days per week round trip of 14 miles. I mucked out and rode all the difficult horses. Eventually ran my own yard and worked 7 days a week and walked miles with clients who were learning to ride. All the hard yard manual work stuff - throwing feed bags and bales around. Never warmed up or stretched.
i now have an office job - got a bit softer in condition. I Still walk a bit , also ride about 4 horses a week training them. I now have started climbing my body had a shock !! Muscle memory is kicking in, weight dropping off and i can feel my muscles changing becoming leaner - - it's great !! When indoors i boulder to warm up and when outdoors use the walk ins to warm up. Good fun - I'm 53 yrs just need to keep active.

In reply to daretodazzle:

Cycling is quite a good warm up..............

In reply to flopsicle:


maybe that's because only the one in five has the physical set-up to cope with that sort of work? Maybe these sort of jobs are self selecting for those who can cope? I have friends and neighbours who are farmers. True they do just keep going and don't warm up, but they all have bad backs and dodgy joints, they just get on regardless. Not necessarily the best way of going about things!

In reply to flopsicle:

You have to watch out for survivorship bias in these kinds of anacdotes. All those who lost their rides were part of that population who couldn't physically cope with the stresses and strains of the job. Others would have been filtered out at an earlier stage.

I read an article about All Blacks rugby training. A large proportion of secondary school players in the first team DO NOT make first teams at age 22 - they're simply worn out.

Also consider the large compound movement involved in mucking out compared to climbing. Acute work using delicate structures like the hands may lead to problems much sooner and so a shorter shelf-life.

In reply to flopsicle:


You seem to be answering your own question. I rarely look at people's profiles but, as warming up is affected by age, I looked at yours' - 44. (May not be up to date, but I'm guessing you're in your forties.) At 24 you can probably get away without warming up very much for climbing (although you'd be well advised to). At 44 less so. At 64 (I'm nearly 63) not at all. And that's if you want to climb hard (for you). If you just want to climb at an easy grade, sure you can just get on with it. And I suspect that this is the flaw in your thinking. Your examples of people in later life just getting on with it are surely examples where they're putting in hard work but they're not pushing their limits. They're just doing what their bodies are used to doing at a 'grade' that they can do on automatic. So that's kind of their warm-up grade.

In the last 20 years, I've gone from a warm-up grade of F7a+ to F6a - and that's just to start. Then I have to slowly work up the grades. If I skimp on the warm-up, it's a flash pump and a waste of the day. Somebody who's maybe climbing 6a might see me jumping straight on and think, "Bloody hell, that old git doesn't need to warm-up." But they'd be wrong. It's all relative.

If you ignore your body, it won't just toughen up. Sooner or later, you'll knacker it.

Mick

In reply to RockAngel:

It sounds weird, but it was looking at a work-friend's pair of cool looking black and yellow chainsaw gloves which sparked my interest in learning how...'I want to do something which you need cool kit for'

http://www.arbortecforestwear.com/gloves-xpert-chainsaw-glove-at900.html

So much so I got a pair...

In reply to Timmd:

I like the fingerless pair for folk who have already had a mishap....

In reply to LeeWood:


I teach aerial circus which in terms of its demands on your body is not dissimilar to climbing and I have first-hand experience of the need to warm up for certain activities. We force participants to do a full body warm-up which usually lasts 40 minutes to an hour, one aim is to get the full range of movement from various key muscles.
Now, sometimes I lead the warm-up, sometimes I get to participate in it and other times I'm busy with rig checking or admin. I can certainly tell the difference in my body's performance depending on whether I've warmed up or not. Properly warmed up I can teach for an hour, including demo-ing all the moves and breaking them down and doing them in slo-mo as well as spotting, then go on to do my own training for a couple of hours after that. Without a warm-up I'm dead by the end of the hour with aching muscles and nothing left for my own play time.

I don't think it's the grade of the climbing which makes a difference to the need to warm up but rather how close to their limit you are pushing your muscles. In fact the key to those people who say they don't need to warm up might well be that either they never push themselves to near the limit or they go easy for the first part of a session - effectively warming up by climbing gently.