UKH

Having had a couple of "incidents" with a rather slippy ATC, I am in the market for something that's a bit grippier.

I've started using my old DMM Bettabrake, which is reasonable -- are there any modern devices that are similarly grippy/grabby?

In reply to kylo-342:

Reverso is pretty grippy in my experience. Bear in mind your choice of karabiner (cross section) will influence it, as well as the ropes, I find brand new ropes a lot slicker.

In reply to kylo-342:

Was playing with a selection of belay plates last week:

Black Diamond ATC - very slick
DMM Bug - Slightly more grippy than the ATC
Wild Country Variable Controller (in high friction mode) - for years my belay plate of choice, significantly more grippy than the Bug
Petzl Verso - Slightly more grippy than the Variable Controller

In reply to kylo-342:

Grabby is something most of us try to avoid, for braking power the ATC XP is still the best I´ve tested (or the Metolious BRD depending on the rope).

In reply to kylo-342:

Never had any problems with the reverse 3 or 4 being too slick, inc. using on 8.2mm 1/2 ropes.

If your buying a new device, I'd get one with a guide mode - you might not use it much but the devices aren't much heavier (if at all) and it's another option open to you.

Cheers,

Stuart

In reply to JimboWizbo:






That's really interesting. What's the rule of thumb for judging how krab cross section effects friction?

In reply to Oldsign:

Big round cross section - less friction. Small featured cross section - more friction.

I would expect a DMM phantom to create more friction than a DMM rhino, for instance... especially in guide mode or when abseiling

In reply to JimboWizbo:

Cheers Jim. I'll be obsessively squinting at my collection of lockers when i get home

In reply to kylo-342:

These are very grippy and cheap currently
http://www.rockrun.com/winter-climbing/belay-devices/wild-country-vc-pro-2?...

In reply to kylo-342:

Well done there with your decision. Hope the experience wasn't too rattling!
Reverso, or BD ATC xp.

The hardest part will be ensuring you are belayed on something safer too.
I normally offer my reverso or xp to belayer and don't climb if they won't swap out their atc. Even indoors. Fortunately, mostly everyone I know uses Reverso's/guides.

It's all shits and giggles lowering off fast "until it isnt".

In reply to zimpara:
thanks everyone for your replies, most helpful.

I will try out the options suggested.

(Although I might keep the bettabrake for sea cliff adventures -- as the convenient thread-hole means I can tie it neatly into the harness with some 5.5mm dyneema... and then it doesn't fall into the sea......(and there begins another story involving Tony Whitehouse))

In reply to kylo-342:

I'm using the new DMM Pivot and its very nice. Seems to hold all ropes easily enough but can pay out smoothly too. Very similar is the BD ATC Guide which I've had for years. A bit different but grippier than most in day to day use (Jim will explain how its is less grippy in extreme circumstances) is the Edelrid Megajul. It is virtually autolocking, but takes more knack to feed out smoothly. Oh, and nowt wrong with the modern Reversos either.

In reply to kylo-342:
I'm guessing there's more modern devices with guide modes which also provide grippy and not so grippy lowering, but I've always liked the sprung sticht plate for how reassuringly control-able it is. Some people find them a hassle or a faff, but I never have done, to me they're subjectively 'twice' as grippy as an ATC, or something like that.

http://belaydevice.co.uk/blog/belay-device/belay-device-catalogue-2/stitch-...

In reply to Timmd:

Thanks for that link -- I didn't realise sprung sticht plates were still available. I have ordered one! Brilliant.

In reply to kylo-342:

I have been using an Edelrid Mega Jule, it is very light and versatile. I have been using it with a pretty big partner (16 stone plus) and it locks brilliantly. It has taken a little getting used to and requires careful rope work to ensure it pays out smoothly. You can ab in two modes, one that locks off and one giving less friction were you would use a prussic too; I think it has what you call a guide mode also for direct belaying.

In reply to kylo-342:


I still use/have one having learnt to belay with one, have been thinking it could be worth looking into something more multi functional as well, like a belay device which you can ascend a rope with, and easily use in a way that it's easy to escape from the system.

In reply to TobyA:

I´ve a Pivot on test and it´s braking power is pretty good, a bit less than the ATCxP and better than the Reverso³. The Megajul is still the weakest braking device I´ve tested

In reply to jimtitt:

not too impressed with megajule - for me too complex, too asymmetric, too easy to get wrong.

In reply to kylo-342:

on scary raps (all of em) I use 2 screwgates, it appears to increase the friction and slow the descent, would it have same effect while belaying?

bugett and reverso are both reliable IMO

In reply to John Kelly:

A genuine question as I would not like to make a dangerous error; how could I get it wrong in a way that may cause a serious problem?

In reply to tmawer:

I can't remember which direction has the high resistance (you could just hold on very tight)

I guess i could get used to it but you know those days when your 3000ft up a mountain, its dark, the wind gets up, the anchors are shit, you've been cold and wet for hours, i just want an easy, symmetrical, bit of kit that even i can't get wrong or even nearly wrong

In reply to John Kelly:

Yes, using two carabiners when belaying/rapping is a good choice if paired with a larger person or just want extra security. The rope is forced to bend around a wider angle and friction is increased.

In reply to John Kelly:

Yes. I would prefer something a bit more intuitively easy to use under those conditions for sure!

In reply to kylo-342:

I've recently changed from using an HMS screwgate with my DMM bug to one of the DMM belay master carabiners. It's quite a big difference. The smaller radius of the upper part of the belay master means it sits further inside the bug, so friction is higher. I only bought it because it was clearance at my climbing wall and I was fed up with the HMS screwgate flipping as I was belaying meaning I had to keep checking it to stop it being in a cross loading situation.

So try another screwgate, see if that changes things!

In reply to kylo-342:

My two cents:

Enjoying the Pivot - seems to be the smoothest one I've tried in guide mode. Lowering in guide mode is easier, but still a huge pain, especially if lowering someone significantly heavier.

The megajul I like if there is a chance of dropping rocks on your belayer/your belayer losing conscience for whatever reason. I wouldn't use it if you're planning on taking massive, high factor falls, as the autolocking thing works less well (or so Jim has scienced out). I really dislike abseiling with the megajul on autolock mode, as I find I go down in a very jittery manner: the point between 'completely locked off' and 'ohcraptoofast' is too subtle for me to find. I agree that since it looks/works differently to other devices we're used to, it can be a bit more confusing to use in a stressful situation.

Most modern devices tend to be grippier, since they are designed to work with ropes that go down to a smaller diameter. Anything V-shaped with teeth will do what you're after.

In reply to John Kelly:


I think the difference is one of static over dynamic friction. When locking off I suspect much of the static friction comes from the rope flattening somewhat at the points of inflexion where it switches back and providing surface area or runs over any type of groove or tooth. With the two screwgates you will have more metal to run against but no additional "points" though the angle may be slightly more acute where the rope enters and exits the plate. I'd suspect the additional sgate adds little in terms of reducing the force/angle required to arrest a fall at the breaking hand but is significant when abbing or lowering as the rope runs across more metal. Added benefit is more metal to dissipate heat through on very long abs.

In reply to ultrabumbly:


What?

In reply to jimtitt:

Your own (excellent) data and graphs shows that for the more common rope types it provides more braking force than a Reverso until you get to fairly high lock-off forces. I agree it looks rubbish on the smallest ropes and the minimum rope size should be considered very optimistic.

'weakest' is unfairly vague.

In reply to andrewmcleod:



True enough, it´s not as bad as some with some rope diameters. The tests I´ve been running recently on guide plates show it to be reasonably consistently the weakest at higher braking forces though which may be of concern to some. As a guide plate it´s positively awful!

In reply to ultrabumbly:


The larger the karabiner diameter (round stock karabiners only) the more belaying force is created, I´ve tested up to 24mm and this is the rule. Two 12mm HMS karabiners give about 74% more force than a single karabiner and three 135% more, at least with the ATC XP and Reverso³. The highest braking force I´ve yet recorded is an ATC XP with 3 karabiners.
In fact this is one of the nice features of conventional devices that you can easily adjust the braking force both upward and downwards as desired with no detriment to the handling.

The wrap angles through the plate are increased with a larger diameter and as they multiply together the effect is larger than one would think.

In reply to jimtitt:

I use mine in guide mode quite a lot so this is somewhat more worrying to me (I am very careful about rope diameters with my MegaJul, for example I know it doesn't hold my 80kg on a single 8.5mm strand when abbing), although I guess in guide mode it shouldn't be catching big falls (it is good for scaring people who are used to the guide mode on a Reverso/ATC due to the completely different setup!).

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Unless I'm mistaken, the mega-jul is self locking in guide mode (like all other guide mode devices). What I dislike is that it has more friction than other devices in guide mode, which makes taking in rope harder work. Harder work = positively awful.

For thin ropes, you could always go micro-jul instead of mega.

In reply to kylo-342:

Can anyone coment on how the Pivot is when taking in rope in guide mode? I find the ATC guide a bit of a work out. Often leaves me more knackered than the climb.

In reply to RoK:


It's pretty good. Though of course depends on positioning/stance. If you can place it high, it's great. But then again, with a good position, the ATC guide and the reverso aren't bad either.

In reply to Juan S:

With normal ropes (new 9 and 10mm) I´ve measured them all and the Alpine Up is worst by quite a way and then the MJ, ATC, Reverso and Pivot all a muchness, the Rev is a bit worse than the others. I gave up testing with a used 10mm rope as the pull-through values were ludicrous like over 10kg. The Smart in both versions is far far the best apart from an HMS or my trusty Grigri.

In reply to Juan S:



Well they lock, then under load they don´t lock any more. With a thin rope (7.8mm) the Pivot and MegaJul failed to hold our 88kg test weight and dropped it, The ATC just held it. The MJ appears to be the hardest to release according to my notes, both from subjective feel and measuring the force required.

In reply to jimtitt:

Bad but not unexpected that the MegaJul 'failed' on 7.8mm ropes (right at the far end of its range) but worrying given the Pivot is supposed to be rated down to 7.3mm!

I remember my Reverso (before I threw it in the sea) being an absolute pig with a 10.2mm Beal Edelrid in guide mode...

If you only need a few of inches of slack it is quite easy to just waggle the carabiner backwards and forwards on the MegaJul - not had to actually lower on the MJ yet fortunately (got very close the other day, had the Italian backup in place).

If only Petzl would make a lightweight double-rope two-cam two-lever grigri... (just two grigris bolted together!)

In reply to jimtitt:

have you got a link to this stuff
thanks
john

In reply to andrewmcleod:





For single ropes the GriGri is hands-down the best guide device and since you don´t need another couple of HMS karabiners to use it it´s comparable in weight to the rest as well. Personally I just use an Italian hitch anyway, it functions on all the ropes I own.

In reply to John Kelly:




No, it´s bits of paper on my desk and computer files at the moment. I´ll write it up one day when I´ve time I guess.

In reply to jimtitt:


I don't quite understand how this happens. If I'm reading this right, the Pivot is not auto-locking in guide mode? This doesn't make sense to me. Even with a thin (7.8mm) rope. The physics of how this would happen puzzle me (you have a considerable part of the weight of the climber clamping down the dead rope with all the friction that entails).

Can I double check you were talking about the DMM pivot on guide mode? And, if you remember more details about your test:
Was that one or two thin ropes (it should auto-lock with either, but I'm just curious)
Was the test weight dropped slowly through slow slippage? Or a fast drop?
Finally, you wouldn't happen to have measured the breaking force required to stop such a fall/slippage?

My apologies for all the questions!

In reply to MG:
Those (Variable Controller and variants) are absolutely terrible. Don't buy one. They are *so* grabby they can be hard to release with some krab/rope combinations, particularly thick centre ropes.

I'd recommend a Black Diamond ATC XP or ATC XP Guide. I've had both and found they give a very good level of grip (if you want less you can always thread an ATC XP backwards if you want, making it the same as a regular ATC), while being very smooth to operate with most rope/krab combinations (I use a DMM Belay Master 2 myself).

Neil

In reply to Juan S:







The loaded rope clamps down on the dead rope and locks it BUT with increasing force the dead rope is squeezed out to the side and in the end the two strands change places, depending on the rope or force either jamming inside the slot or becoming completely free. You can see how this occurs easily by trying a piece of cord instead of a rope.
With bigger ropes this is of little concern as the forces involved have to be quite high but with thin ropes it can occur under bodyweight. Some plates do this worse than others depending on the width and shape of the rope slot.
The weight is slowly lowered onto a single strand.
Once the strands have swapped position the rope is merely running over a karabiner and the plate provides virtually no braking force unless you move your hand to a conventional belaying position.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I get on fine with my VC Pro2 down at the indoor wall, ok a bit grabby with the slots, but flipped around it's fine. I've seen a lot of negative reviews from people whom, I think, don't realise it can be used both ways.