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I was walking from Great Yarlside towards Little Yarlside and was looking at this wall http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/202444 and pondered where had all the stones come from to build it, how many men did it take, who paid for it, how long did it take, when was it built. Is there a history of walls like this or does anyone on here know anything about this.
In reply to Que Sera Sera:
The Drystone Walling Association will have the answers you seek.
http://www.dswa.org.uk/
The Drystone Walling Association will have the answers you seek.
http://www.dswa.org.uk/
In reply to Que Sera Sera:
Typically the wallers worked in gangs of four: two to do the actual walling; one to quarry the stone and one to manage the horse and sled bringing the stone between the two. There's roughly a tonne of stone in every running metre of wall, slightly less in fell walls as they are deliberately less solid than those in the valleys.
In good conditions a waller will put up between 4 & 6 metres of wall a day so with two wallers you are looking at around ten tonnes of material per day. The stone was quarried as close as they could find to the intended line of the wall - why cart (sled) it further than needed? They used a sled rather than a cart as it was less likely to run away or turn over on steeper slopes. The quarries will have been small affairs, an outcrop that they felt could be easily worked and would only have a short working face. No dynamite or black powder as a) it would have cost money & b) it shatters the rock. So they extracted the stone using hammers and crowbars.
The work will have been paid for by the big landed estate owners.
Edit: just for info, I grew up on a Lakes farm and did quite a bit of walling both on the farm and as a contractor.
Typically the wallers worked in gangs of four: two to do the actual walling; one to quarry the stone and one to manage the horse and sled bringing the stone between the two. There's roughly a tonne of stone in every running metre of wall, slightly less in fell walls as they are deliberately less solid than those in the valleys.
In good conditions a waller will put up between 4 & 6 metres of wall a day so with two wallers you are looking at around ten tonnes of material per day. The stone was quarried as close as they could find to the intended line of the wall - why cart (sled) it further than needed? They used a sled rather than a cart as it was less likely to run away or turn over on steeper slopes. The quarries will have been small affairs, an outcrop that they felt could be easily worked and would only have a short working face. No dynamite or black powder as a) it would have cost money & b) it shatters the rock. So they extracted the stone using hammers and crowbars.
The work will have been paid for by the big landed estate owners.
Edit: just for info, I grew up on a Lakes farm and did quite a bit of walling both on the farm and as a contractor.
Post edited at 14:35
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In reply to Que Sera Sera:
The title sounds like a BBC 4 documentary I would like to watch when suffering from a hangover.
The title sounds like a BBC 4 documentary I would like to watch when suffering from a hangover.
2
In reply to Bob:
Thanks for that. The sled explains a lot, I could not understand how what would have been a large number of horse and cart movements had not left some evidence, or even how a horse and cart would manage, but a sled on that slippy grass makes sense. Also I did not realise that 4-6 metres a day could be built by 2 men, that makes a couple of kilometers seem quite atenable with a few teams when labour was cheap.
Thanks for that. The sled explains a lot, I could not understand how what would have been a large number of horse and cart movements had not left some evidence, or even how a horse and cart would manage, but a sled on that slippy grass makes sense. Also I did not realise that 4-6 metres a day could be built by 2 men, that makes a couple of kilometers seem quite atenable with a few teams when labour was cheap.
In reply to Que Sera Sera:
Horse and carts would have left temporary ruts maybe. Even those will have been ploughed out, puddled by cattle and gradually the sides would have slumped and so on. You'd never notice.
If you want the definitive history of walls in the UK and Europe try this :_www.wallhecke.de, Most, but not all walls were built as a result of the 1800;'s enclosure acts.
Horse and carts would have left temporary ruts maybe. Even those will have been ploughed out, puddled by cattle and gradually the sides would have slumped and so on. You'd never notice.
If you want the definitive history of walls in the UK and Europe try this :_www.wallhecke.de, Most, but not all walls were built as a result of the 1800;'s enclosure acts.
In reply to Dave Perry:
Walls in the valley bottoms will have been mainly clearance stone from the fields - the best example of these being at Wasdale Head, the walls are as wide if not wider than they are high.
Cart tracks can be surprisingly long lasting, look at areas where quarrying has taken place, a good example would be on the way up to Crookrise: there are several old tracks; when one got too deep or rough they started another. Look at the hillside in early evening light and you'll see the grooves curving up the slope.
Que Sera Sera: It's 4-6 metres per man so upwards of ten metres a day.
Walls in the valley bottoms will have been mainly clearance stone from the fields - the best example of these being at Wasdale Head, the walls are as wide if not wider than they are high.
Cart tracks can be surprisingly long lasting, look at areas where quarrying has taken place, a good example would be on the way up to Crookrise: there are several old tracks; when one got too deep or rough they started another. Look at the hillside in early evening light and you'll see the grooves curving up the slope.
Que Sera Sera: It's 4-6 metres per man so upwards of ten metres a day.
In reply to Bob:
I was really only referring to individual cart tracks across fields rather than the eroded sunken tracks which ascend/descend hills across the UK.
Walls in valley bottoms are built, like most walls, with whatever is available at hand. Most of the valley bottom walls here in the NYM are from quarries with the odd field stone thrown in. Those in the Lakes as you state are often rounded boulders gathered/cleared from the fields.
I was really only referring to individual cart tracks across fields rather than the eroded sunken tracks which ascend/descend hills across the UK.
Walls in valley bottoms are built, like most walls, with whatever is available at hand. Most of the valley bottom walls here in the NYM are from quarries with the odd field stone thrown in. Those in the Lakes as you state are often rounded boulders gathered/cleared from the fields.
In reply to Dave Perry:
The specific wall I am referring to is 3km or more long and will have needed 1000s of tonnes of stone so I would guess they could leave traces in an unploughed area like that 100s of years later.
The specific wall I am referring to is 3km or more long and will have needed 1000s of tonnes of stone so I would guess they could leave traces in an unploughed area like that 100s of years later.
In reply to Bob:
Question: If I have a wall with a bulge, am I better off cost-wise waiting until it collapses and then getting that section rebuilt, or getting someone in pre-emptively to take the section down in a controlled way and rebuild?
> Edit: just for info, I grew up on a Lakes farm and did quite a bit of walling both on the farm and as a contractor.
Question: If I have a wall with a bulge, am I better off cost-wise waiting until it collapses and then getting that section rebuilt, or getting someone in pre-emptively to take the section down in a controlled way and rebuild?
In reply to Tom Valentine:
If you look at a fell wall at about a metre above the ground you'll find that it has gaps that you can see through. When it's windy and snowing these gaps let some air through so that the snow doesn't drift up right against the wall so the sheep sheltering there don't get buried. I've seen it claimed that light coming through the holes confuses sheep so that they don't jump over the wall! But the way that sheep are prevented from jumping is by having the cams (the top stones) overhang the line of the wall as sheep don't jump a wall like a hurdler but"run" their front feet up the wall to get purchase on the top and the step overhang pushes them out and back.
How do you make a wall less solid? When you are building a wall there's a lot of stone that isn't good enough for the facing stones so gets used as packing or "heart" in the middle of the wall. In part it's also used as wedges to support some of the outer stones so that they don't topple when you are building the wall. In a fell wall there is much less of this "heart" so you get the gaps.
Hope I've described it OK.
If you look at a fell wall at about a metre above the ground you'll find that it has gaps that you can see through. When it's windy and snowing these gaps let some air through so that the snow doesn't drift up right against the wall so the sheep sheltering there don't get buried. I've seen it claimed that light coming through the holes confuses sheep so that they don't jump over the wall! But the way that sheep are prevented from jumping is by having the cams (the top stones) overhang the line of the wall as sheep don't jump a wall like a hurdler but"run" their front feet up the wall to get purchase on the top and the step overhang pushes them out and back.
How do you make a wall less solid? When you are building a wall there's a lot of stone that isn't good enough for the facing stones so gets used as packing or "heart" in the middle of the wall. In part it's also used as wedges to support some of the outer stones so that they don't topple when you are building the wall. In a fell wall there is much less of this "heart" so you get the gaps.
Hope I've described it OK.
In reply to MG:
Depends on the bulge where the wall is and what's behind the wall - if it's a retaining wall next to a road then I'd sort it out sooner rather than later but if it's just a normal wall then the bulge might stay like that for years without anything happening. Or it could fall down tomorrow!
Depends on the bulge where the wall is and what's behind the wall - if it's a retaining wall next to a road then I'd sort it out sooner rather than later but if it's just a normal wall then the bulge might stay like that for years without anything happening. Or it could fall down tomorrow!
In reply to Tom Valentine:
It's probably partly because of the availability of stone, but also because they were to keep in sheep rather than heftier cows and horses. And they aren't always less solid - the DSWA manuals show that a lot depends on local geology and glacial deposition, as well as local practice, so fell walls and hill dykes can be very varied. In the South Mournes in NI for instance some of the mountain walls are just one monster granite boulder thick, with no infill, so they can look like a massive fretwork when you see them against the sky - but they could hardly be more solid. In a lot of places in Scotland there was no need for quarries, or for ponies and sledges, simply because there was so much free rock lying around that all the stone needed could be rolled and carried by hand to the line of the dyke. In that kind of country dykes often served for 'consumption', helping to clear stone from the fields.
It's probably partly because of the availability of stone, but also because they were to keep in sheep rather than heftier cows and horses. And they aren't always less solid - the DSWA manuals show that a lot depends on local geology and glacial deposition, as well as local practice, so fell walls and hill dykes can be very varied. In the South Mournes in NI for instance some of the mountain walls are just one monster granite boulder thick, with no infill, so they can look like a massive fretwork when you see them against the sky - but they could hardly be more solid. In a lot of places in Scotland there was no need for quarries, or for ponies and sledges, simply because there was so much free rock lying around that all the stone needed could be rolled and carried by hand to the line of the dyke. In that kind of country dykes often served for 'consumption', helping to clear stone from the fields.
In reply to Bob:
I know about walling. It's just that I've never heard of walls being deliberately built less solid, at least in mainland Britain. And I've certainly never been aware of it as a recommended practice.
I know about walling. It's just that I've never heard of walls being deliberately built less solid, at least in mainland Britain. And I've certainly never been aware of it as a recommended practice.
In reply to Tom Valentine:
Walls don't get deliberately built 'less solid'. But fell walls are quite often made from field boulders and/or roughly quarried stone. A wall built from that sort of rounded stuff if done properly is just as strong as most other walls are. It looks less solid because the rounded/uneven nature of the stone means there are more gaps in it.
Sheep, especially lambs, will climb anything if they so choose too.
www.wallsandhedges.blogspot.co.uk
Walls don't get deliberately built 'less solid'. But fell walls are quite often made from field boulders and/or roughly quarried stone. A wall built from that sort of rounded stuff if done properly is just as strong as most other walls are. It looks less solid because the rounded/uneven nature of the stone means there are more gaps in it.
Sheep, especially lambs, will climb anything if they so choose too.
www.wallsandhedges.blogspot.co.uk
In reply to Dave Perry:
We're in the same line of work, Dave.
I was taking issue with the post at 14.34 which said that fell walls were built "deliberately less solid".
I'm just finishing a long stretch at Midhope near Langsett and I would not expect the client to be impressed if he thought that because it was a fell/moor wall I was building it to a lesser standard than any other, leaving daylight gaps and skimping on the packing.
I know they do it differently elsewhere, like the Aran Isles, but round here we build them solid and we build them tight.
As I'm sure you do, too.
We're in the same line of work, Dave.
I was taking issue with the post at 14.34 which said that fell walls were built "deliberately less solid".
I'm just finishing a long stretch at Midhope near Langsett and I would not expect the client to be impressed if he thought that because it was a fell/moor wall I was building it to a lesser standard than any other, leaving daylight gaps and skimping on the packing.
I know they do it differently elsewhere, like the Aran Isles, but round here we build them solid and we build them tight.
As I'm sure you do, too.
Post edited at 00:13
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In reply to Dave Perry:
I made the statement about "less solid" and the reasons why. By "less solid" I didn't mean less solid in construction: on the farm I grew up on there is a wall build in the early 20th century that is of this construction, it's about two miles long and I can only remember repairing one gap (where it crossed a boggy section) in all that distance. This wall has daylight gaps, it's not a colander but it's not "solid" and of solid construction. The heart hasn't decayed away, the wall was built like that. Less than quarter of a mile away in a sheltered location using the same local stone the walls are solid, i.e. no daylight gaps.
If you are ever on the isle of Mull and heading down to Iona take a look at some of the walls - basically two or three courses of granite boulders perched on top of one another. A real balancing act, very "holey" or should that be "holy"
Different areas have different styles, here in West Yorkshire the walls have a flat "through" just below the cams, this through overhangs the wall by a couple of inches on either side to prevent sheep jumping over. In the Lakes the cams do this by being wider. Two solutions to the same problem.
I made the statement about "less solid" and the reasons why. By "less solid" I didn't mean less solid in construction: on the farm I grew up on there is a wall build in the early 20th century that is of this construction, it's about two miles long and I can only remember repairing one gap (where it crossed a boggy section) in all that distance. This wall has daylight gaps, it's not a colander but it's not "solid" and of solid construction. The heart hasn't decayed away, the wall was built like that. Less than quarter of a mile away in a sheltered location using the same local stone the walls are solid, i.e. no daylight gaps.
If you are ever on the isle of Mull and heading down to Iona take a look at some of the walls - basically two or three courses of granite boulders perched on top of one another. A real balancing act, very "holey" or should that be "holy"
Different areas have different styles, here in West Yorkshire the walls have a flat "through" just below the cams, this through overhangs the wall by a couple of inches on either side to prevent sheep jumping over. In the Lakes the cams do this by being wider. Two solutions to the same problem.
1
In reply to Bob:
As I hinted at before, Bob, I know that other parts of the British Isles build walls as a single rather than a double. I've just had a few days in Connemara and the stuff that's been put up there, probably centuries ago, seems to defy gravity.
Scottish boulder dykes are similar and watching one being built seemed to have more in common with the stone balancing bloke on the beach at Lyme Regis than regular walling.
As for Yorkshire, if you have enough stone to be able to afford the luxury of cover bands below your toppers, you are a lucky man indeed!
As I hinted at before, Bob, I know that other parts of the British Isles build walls as a single rather than a double. I've just had a few days in Connemara and the stuff that's been put up there, probably centuries ago, seems to defy gravity.
Scottish boulder dykes are similar and watching one being built seemed to have more in common with the stone balancing bloke on the beach at Lyme Regis than regular walling.
As for Yorkshire, if you have enough stone to be able to afford the luxury of cover bands below your toppers, you are a lucky man indeed!
Post edited at 08:26
In reply to Que Sera Sera:
Interesting discussion; I will sometimes stop on a bike ride to admire a particularly good length of wall here in Lancashire. Some of the waterboard walls are magnificent, especially when built with the squared blocks of the compact Lancashire sandstone that is commonly found in flat slabs around here. I've always been struck by the waterboard walls at Coldwell reservoir, near Burnley, though I think this may be gritstone:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kXRci8VntXI/TWk9IIsnvtI/AAAAAAAAA3k/64FD4zNEUrM/s...
I always thought the reason for "pourous" walls was to allow sufficient air to flow to dry the fleeces of wet sheep.
Interesting discussion; I will sometimes stop on a bike ride to admire a particularly good length of wall here in Lancashire. Some of the waterboard walls are magnificent, especially when built with the squared blocks of the compact Lancashire sandstone that is commonly found in flat slabs around here. I've always been struck by the waterboard walls at Coldwell reservoir, near Burnley, though I think this may be gritstone:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kXRci8VntXI/TWk9IIsnvtI/AAAAAAAAA3k/64FD4zNEUrM/s...
I always thought the reason for "pourous" walls was to allow sufficient air to flow to dry the fleeces of wet sheep.
Post edited at 08:39
In reply to Tom Valentine:
If you ever visit the Westmorland Show (or indeed just the ground - it's just off the M6 at Crooklands nr Kendal) they have short sections of wall in most of the vernacular styles, including the "West Yorkshire" style.
I was thinking of the stone balancing chap as it happens. I can just imagine the "fun" they had trying to put the second or third course on!
I think we may be suffering from confirmation bias - I had a look at the walls either side of the lane as I walked up it this morning and those have "holes". Interestingly I build "solid" walls - I rebuilt the wall on one side of the garden and built the wall on the other side from new and they are solid.
Trangia: My back's fine thanks
Rigid Raider: Those walls at Coldwell are closer to the walls the Inca put up, all the stone is dressed, they're closer to mortared walls. Yes, it's gritstone. I too admire them as I ride past.
If you ever visit the Westmorland Show (or indeed just the ground - it's just off the M6 at Crooklands nr Kendal) they have short sections of wall in most of the vernacular styles, including the "West Yorkshire" style.
I was thinking of the stone balancing chap as it happens. I can just imagine the "fun" they had trying to put the second or third course on!
I think we may be suffering from confirmation bias - I had a look at the walls either side of the lane as I walked up it this morning and those have "holes". Interestingly I build "solid" walls - I rebuilt the wall on one side of the garden and built the wall on the other side from new and they are solid.
Trangia: My back's fine thanks
Rigid Raider: Those walls at Coldwell are closer to the walls the Inca put up, all the stone is dressed, they're closer to mortared walls. Yes, it's gritstone. I too admire them as I ride past.
In reply to Bob:
Great examples of lots (most?) regional styles at the National Stone Centre in Wirksworth.
> If you ever visit the Westmorland Show (or indeed just the ground - it's just off the M6 at Crooklands nr Kendal) they have short sections of wall in most of the vernacular styles, including the "West Yorkshire" style.
Great examples of lots (most?) regional styles at the National Stone Centre in Wirksworth.
1
In reply to Bob:
Not much to add, but thanks to the contributors to this thread for one of the most inspiring - if tangential - threads here for a while. Is this sort of information/knowledge actually compiled anywhere accessible (i.e., other than in your heads)?
M
Not much to add, but thanks to the contributors to this thread for one of the most inspiring - if tangential - threads here for a while. Is this sort of information/knowledge actually compiled anywhere accessible (i.e., other than in your heads)?
M
In reply to Doghouse:
Millenium Wall - I built part of the South Yorkshire section. Admittedly not the prettiest on the wall, because we could have got better stone if we'd approached the Earl of Scarborough and taken some of the beautiful limestone from Roche Abbey - but better, in my opinion, than the clinically clean and uniform stuff the West Yorkshire branch used on their section.
Politics rears its head in the strangest of places, doesn't it.?
Millenium Wall - I built part of the South Yorkshire section. Admittedly not the prettiest on the wall, because we could have got better stone if we'd approached the Earl of Scarborough and taken some of the beautiful limestone from Roche Abbey - but better, in my opinion, than the clinically clean and uniform stuff the West Yorkshire branch used on their section.
Politics rears its head in the strangest of places, doesn't it.?
In reply to Bob:
Thats OK, I obviously misunderstood.
If anyone is not sure of the term 'single' and/or 'double' walls have a look at this single wall, built by 'balancing' one stone on top of another.
http://wallsandhedges.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/biggest-drystone-wall-in-europ...
Plenty of air can get through. But nothing. Absolutely nothing will ever get over it.
Thats OK, I obviously misunderstood.
If anyone is not sure of the term 'single' and/or 'double' walls have a look at this single wall, built by 'balancing' one stone on top of another.
http://wallsandhedges.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/biggest-drystone-wall-in-europ...
Plenty of air can get through. But nothing. Absolutely nothing will ever get over it.
In reply to Que Sera Sera:
If anyone wants a comprehensive study of walls in europe, look no further. Two volumes, 1280 pages and over 4000 pictures by Georg Mueller. "Europe's Field Boundaries"
Another book like this doesn't exist and likely will never be surpassed (unless he produces his next life work, which will cover the rest of the world when he's got round to visiting every other country outside europe).
The only slight downside is the cost of 298 euros.
If anyone wants a comprehensive study of walls in europe, look no further. Two volumes, 1280 pages and over 4000 pictures by Georg Mueller. "Europe's Field Boundaries"
Another book like this doesn't exist and likely will never be surpassed (unless he produces his next life work, which will cover the rest of the world when he's got round to visiting every other country outside europe).
The only slight downside is the cost of 298 euros.
In reply to Que Sera Sera:
Jings !
A great thread, very informative.
What about Styles of Stiles, as a complimentary discussion
http://www.geograph.org.uk/results/6112377
Jings !
A great thread, very informative.
What about Styles of Stiles, as a complimentary discussion
http://www.geograph.org.uk/results/6112377
In reply to Dave Perry:
298 euros shouldn't be a problem for the Alderley Edge walling set.
So I hear.
298 euros shouldn't be a problem for the Alderley Edge walling set.
So I hear.
Post edited at 00:29
In reply to Tom Valentine:
If I was your client I'd be slightly miffed if you built and charged me for an overspecified wall.
If I was your client I'd be slightly miffed if you built and charged me for an overspecified wall.
In reply to Tom Valentine:
Well they all looked pretty impressive to my untrained eye!
> Millenium Wall - I built part of the South Yorkshire section. Admittedly not the prettiest on the wall, because we could have got better stone if we'd approached the Earl of Scarborough and taken some of the beautiful limestone from Roche Abbey - but better, in my opinion, than the clinically clean and uniform stuff the West Yorkshire branch used on their section.
> Politics rears its head in the strangest of places, doesn't it.?
Well they all looked pretty impressive to my untrained eye!
In reply to Brown:
Never heard the term overspecified used in walling before.
A client will specify dimensions and the rest is usually down to good practice as detailed in DSWA manuals.
You seem to be implying that a wall can be too solidly built. I disagree, and so would my mentor, who said that the test of a decent wall was whether a shire horse could scratch its arse on it.
poetic licence, probably, but the message is clear.
Never heard the term overspecified used in walling before.
A client will specify dimensions and the rest is usually down to good practice as detailed in DSWA manuals.
You seem to be implying that a wall can be too solidly built. I disagree, and so would my mentor, who said that the test of a decent wall was whether a shire horse could scratch its arse on it.
poetic licence, probably, but the message is clear.
Post edited at 19:43
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