UKH

Hi all,

A couple of questions... I'm in Scotland for 10 days for some training ready for my trip to the Himalayas. Got a few days with folk planned but likely to be on my own for a few days around Aviemore and Glen Nevis.
Have been out solo lots in Summer, in Winter in Snowdonia etc and have Alps experience to PD grade.
Will have a tent/camping equipment (as well as access to hostels) climbing axes etc. Also have a very high level of fitness, good navigation skills, basic avalanche awareness and keen for some arduous days out...

Any suggestions as to any routes/areas I could visit, safely?

Which brings me onto my next question... I regularly seem to be getting confused when talking about winter/ice climbing, walking and winter mountaineering as it seems people have different definitions.
I have seconded a Winter III route in the Lake District but equally seen people walking up grade I or grade II terrain solo and unroped... I thought winter mountaineering included winter climbing but have heard people treat the two differently. Could anyone please share any thoughts on the differences between them all?

Embarassing question, considering I've done a variety of stuff in Winter... but if you don't ask you'll never know for sure.

In reply to Stani49: You ask a very valid question as these days there is a real confusion between what is winter 'mountaineering' and winter 'climbing'. There might once have been an answer but I'm not sure there is one now.

A simplistic answer and pedantically correct answer is that everything is 'Winter mountaineering', but that doesn't real work in practice. There is obviously a more nuanced distinction reflecting both the route and style of ascent.

As far as the former is concerned, routes on easier ridges and traverses fall clearly into the category of 'mountaineering' as they are part of an obvious journey to one or more summits. In the main, they are also not ascended purely by pitched climbing with the full rigmoral of technical axes and a large rack. This leads on to the hypothesis that it is 'mountaineering' if you use one axe and 'climbing' if you use two.

However, these attempts at definitions rapidly brake down on the face of exposure to the masses. Routes that I would absolutely say were 'winter mountaineering' are now rarely climbed with one axe and parties rarely solo, move together or short rope. Pitched climbing seems now to be ubiquitous and hence perhaps almost everything is now a 'climb'...

Anyway, a good question and ultimately I think the terms mean different things in different contexts and mean different things to different people.

In reply to Stani49:

Yeah I basically agree, climbing and mountaineering in this context mean the same thing, at least conversationally, as you mention.

When to use a rope or not is a personal choice, just like in trad climbing and not really anything to do with grades as such.

Hope you find a good adventure, can't really help with areas but I would imagine conditions are much more important than location, especially if you're soloing. Keep an eye on the mwis cos there ain't no weather like Scottish weather!

In reply to Stani49:

A lot of the Munro ridge chains around Nevis and in the Mamores can be stitched together to make long mountaineering day's.

as for climbing, most Grade 1 gulley's shouldn't cause you much trouble although be aware of avalanche conditions. Many Grade II gulleys can vary by 1 or 2 grades so i'd avoid them unless you have specific knowledge of the conditions.

I always think Ledge route on Ben Nevis is a Fantastic but soft grade II although that might be down to the conditions i've had. you could link this up with a decent of the Carn Mor Dearg arete.

There's also the Fiacaill ridge in the Cairngorms, the difficulties are quite short but there are plenty of options in the area to expand your day.

The NE ridge of Sgurr an Lochan Uaine is a fantastic but remote grade I.

In reply to Stani49:


Not sure there are safe/unsafe routes, just different conditions and the requirements for different abilities, both climbing and weather/conditions interpretation. The grades are very variable, depending on conditions and style. There can be grade II gullies that are banked out into snow plods and there can be Grade II routes in conditions that many a grade V leader would want a rope for. Andy Kirkpatrick has a good article on winter soloing on his website, from memory think he suggests just being 100% confident in your ability at a grade, 100% confident of your ability for the conditions, don't climb underneath anyone and take a rope to retreat or cover a difficult section.

In terms of classic mountaineering routes - ledge route (combined with the suggested summit and cmd arete route is a great but big day out), aonach eagach, liathac, fiacaill ridge, curved rige, Ring of Steal (more walking aparently but a big day out). Another good winter day is the Ben Starav round at the bottom of Loch Etive, a couple of years ago I linked all the summits there and it's a big day . If the conditions are good Ben Lui and the surrouding peaks are a good day out and a classic grade I route if it's in condition, when I did it there was a big cornice and you can exit early onto the ridges either side and then walk along to the other hills and go back down the other ridge. If you fancy buying a book I'd highly recommend Scotlands Mountain Ridges, another good book is the big walks (ken wilson) which you can sometimes pick up for a steal second hand on amazon and is great for walking routes (which turn into even bigger days in the winter).

You might find travel an issue if you don't have a car. Also beware of grade I gullies, Scottish avalanche conditions are somewhat unique and it's the easier gullies that consistently sweep people away. Also beware soloing to the top of a gully and finding a monster cornice on the top.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:


Is that true? For example, I would categorize Tower Ridge and the Aonach Eagach traverse as classic mountaineering routes and, although two axes is probably more common ( though often one is a traditional alpine axe), they are regularly climbed in the styles you mention.

In reply to planetmarshall:

They were exactly the routes I was thinking of. Admittedly I don't have a massive set of data to base my observations on, but outside of Guides and MICs I have seen little evidence of anything but pitched climbing with technical axes.

I will give one concrete example. On a busy March Saturday several years ago I saw 14 parties on Tower Ridge. One party (not British, possibly Swiss) climbed it very competently using a range of mountaineering skills. The other 13 parties were frankly an embarrassment to British mountaineering as ALL were pitching the entire route, with double ropes, two axes and overly large racks. Watching some of the individuals flail around on trivially easy sections with two axes was cringe worthy.

Equally, last year, I saw online Go Pro footage of climbers on the Anoach Eagach displaying an equal level of unconscious incompetence. They were completely oblivious to the fact their ropework (when attempting to move together) was completely ineffectual and that they would have made far smoother progress with one axe and utilising the myriad of obvious handholds.

We all start at the level of unconscious incompetence, so this is absolutely not a criticism of individual climbers. It is merely a factual observation about how many (not all) people seem to be approaching these routes.

In reply to Stani49:

I'd go for things like the Grey Corries traverse, Mamores traverse, Aonachs & the Ben, maybe taking in some I/II gullies or steeper hill faces. It'll play to your fitness and give you lots of ground to cover. Good general mountaineering practice without getting hung up on the 'is it climbing' question?