UKH

I would like to get my dragon cams re-slung (slinged?) but with 60cm slings instead of 30cm stock ones. I really think this would make them the perfect gear for the routes I climb.

Unfortunately dmm have said they can only replace like for like with 30cm slings, which I find are pointlessly short and I have to extend with a quick draw anyway.

I know cord is an option but it's also ugly and bulky.

Does anyone know of companies in the uk that can do sewn dynema? Though I know a lot of textile stuff is done abroad

In reply to Kemics:
I've never heard of anyone doing it in the UK, but if you can do without them for a couple of weeks maybe you could send them away on holiday to California: http://www.mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/cams/mt_camresling.htm

In reply to Kemics:

This sort of thing has been covered many times.

http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=1&na...
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=1&na...

This post suggests you won't find a company in the E.U. that will do it.
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=445201#x6254648

In reply to Kemics:

It is illegal for anyone to do them in the UK. How would you rack the goddam things anyway, they´d be at your knees.

In reply to jimtitt:

Just flat-out black-vs-white illegal, no shades of grey? How so exactly?

Edit to add:
Oh. Hang on a minute. Is it this?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/1144/regulation/4/made

http://www.mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/cams/mt_camresling.htm
From the link I posted above:
"Please note - we do not inspect metal hardware for defects, wear or function or warrant that your cams or other gear are fit for use upon their return. By sending in gear to our Resling Service you acknowledge that you are solely responsible for any inspections and also determining when to retire your gear from use."

Maybe it's time to stop mocking the yanks for their litigious and risk-averse ways, if they can make this perfectly reasonable statement and we can't.

In reply to Kemics:

This always comes up and and as previous poster noted. mntools in California will do it. In europe I have found only one guy in Font that will do it. I do not have a contact for him sorry.

In reply to jimtitt:

A 60cm sling doubled would sit how the current dragons sit when extended, which isnt a problem.

Crazy that it's illegal. Dmm even replace the slings, so I can't see why it's illegal to use a different length sling

In reply to deepsoup:

Thanks, I'll check it out. Seems quite reasonably priced too

In reply to Kemics:

DMM can replace the sling, they are giving the CE approval. That they don´t wish to change the sling length is their affair.
For anyone else to do it in Europe they are required to certify the product again which would be impossible since they will have to destroy your cams (and it costs a considerable amount of money as well).

In reply to Kemics:

It might seem a bit of a dumb question but: You are aware that you can extend the slings aren't you?

Like this - http://assets.outdoorgearlab.com/photos/7/94/200931_30314_XL.jpg

I'm quite surprised that you find the stock sling length is too short.

In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

Yes I am aware! but if you look at that photo it's barely a carabiners length longer than the other 'non extended' cam. I find on 50 meter pitches I have to put quite a lot of 60cm slings on my cams to keep rope drag bearable.

Ideally that's why I'd have a double length sling as stock. So racked at 30cm (and useable) and then the option for extending to 60cm.

The dragon stock 30-15cm option is useless.
If I'm falling off, a 15cm shorter runner is never going to keep me off the ground. So I'd rather have a more flexible runner. Less rope drag, less chance of cam walking etc

In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:


I agree, normally extendin the dragon sling is more than enough. And if it isn't, then something even longer is generally needed (80 to 120cm).

Or simply omit that piece and place something else closer to the line of ascent.

Then again, maybe it's just me. As the stuff I climb rarely traverses that much and generally follows cracks in the direction I'm going anyway.

In reply to Kemics:


Couldn't disagree more! I think it's a great feature.

But whatever works for you! Looks like you'll need to send them off to the states.

In reply to jimtitt:


Hi Jim,

I spoke to our QA and Technical departments to get clarification on this.

In the past we have been too specific when writing ther technical files and included the actual lengths of the sling in the technical file - this makes manufacturing custom lengths impossible without an update to the file.

The increase in size of our sewing department combined with the increasing demand from professional customers for custom product means we are updating the files to a more generic wording that allows us greater leeway in matters such as changing lengths whilst keeping all the core technical details (materials/bar tacks/certification) the same.

This is a work in progress though as there are costs involved in terms of both time and money.

Thus right now we can't help, but going forward I would like to think that it is a service we could offer.

Regards

Simon Marsh

DMM International

In reply to Simon Marsh:

Good Guy - DMM

I think climbing equipment companies (not just DMM - WC, BD etc) are an example of how 'smaller' scale companies are great to deal with.

They seem to actually listen and work with the consumer base rather than just telling us 'this is what you want.'

In reply to Simon Marsh:

Awesome news. I look forward to the day.

Without any grand overview plan I'd say 90% of the hardware i climb with is dmm. Simply because when I compare to other products they always seem to edge ahead. But cool to know they pay attention and offer an awesome service too.

I would love if they sold dragons with various choice in sling length. I would call them "Reduce Rope Drag-ons Cam" ... Let the marketing guys know who to thank :P

In reply to Simon Marsh:


Top sausage.

In reply to jimtitt:

Are they though? Your point has been asserted in several of these threads, but I've never seen it posted with a citation to back it up. That bit of the PPE regulations I posted above kinda sorta suggests what you're saying there, but it doesn't seem nearly so clear cut to me. (Besides which, does a bit of pro used by a recreational climber fall under those regulations anyway.)

Can they really not manufacture a sling and certify that sling, while making no warranty at all on the thing - whatever it is - that the tape happened to be threaded through before they sewed it? In short, exactly what Mountain Tools do in the US.

In reply to deepsoup:

It certainly appears to be the sort of thing that could be handled with a disclaimer. If i have new tyres fitted to my car, I can't sue the garage if the engine blows up the following week?

But then I have no understanding of that type of litigation. I also imagine there's not a great deal of money involved so atm simply not worth it for any companies.

In reply to Kemics:

It isn't really my area but having dealt with the joys of documentation in a few highly regulated industries there is a lot of "we wrote 15cm in the documentation and that is what we are stuck with" there is a real art to writing specifications and conformance documentation so you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot; you need to balance giving yourself some wiggle room without allowing your suppliers to palm off any old rubbish on you

In reply to Kemics:

I read a little about this this evening in response to this thread. So of what follows below, some or all of it may be entirely wrong.

As climbers, we tend to think you can do anything with a disclaimer. This isn't true. The EU is a highly regulated market and if you want to sell certain types of product, they have to be CE marked and comply with various standards. This is (I think) why you can't buy a Big Bro in the UK (apart from the fact we have hardly any offwidths This applies to most climbing hardware, as it's PPE, and standards have been written which have to be followed.

As part of that process, for every product you make you have to produce a "technical file." This says what the product is, how it's made, how it complies with the standards (if relevant) and who tests the product (if relevant). DMM will have these for each Dragon cam and it says "it looks like this, we make them like this, we test them like this, they don't fall out of cracks in our kN-generating machine." The idea is that if you change something about the product, you have to recertify - for example, if they stopped hot forging Phantoms and started cold forging them or using CNC, they would have to retest that they held and not assume that because they look the same, they will be the same. There's an ounce of sense in this

I think the difference between cams and tyres is that cams are sold as a unit, so the whole unit has been tested and is described in one document (place in vice, pull dyneema, doesn't fall out). A tyre is sold as a unit on its own so all of this only applies to the tyre, not the car. And of course, when you buy a dyneema sling by itself, that's got its own technical document too.

As I said, that might all be wrong

In reply to deepsoup:

Are they though?

Only the manufacturer/supplier or their authorised agent may modify or repair PPE.

(Besides which, does a bit of pro used by a recreational climber fall under those regulations anyway.)

Yes.


No. Slings are certified under EN566. Cams are certified under EN12276 and the sling is an integral part of the device.

As Simon has noted you can certify certain "families" of gear under the same standard so a size X helmet will automatically certify size Y as well. Unfortunately if you specify only one size in the technical file only that size will be certified which appears to be the problem.

In reply to jimtitt:

How so? I just had another scan through those PPE regulations I posted a link to before but didn't notice anything to that effect. It all sort of blurred together after a bit though, so maybe I just missed it. Is it in there? Some other set of regulations maybe?


Again, how so?
And what would stop me from buying a sling that is not sold as PPE (but which happens to be manufactured to the same standard) and then using it as such anyway? Given that the Health and Safety at Work Act (which as far as I can tell is the daddy of all the 'elf and safety legislation) simply does not apply to what I chose to do recreationally.

What's to stop someone making me a novelty necklace, consisting of anything of my choosing sewn onto a full strength sling meeting the requirements of EN566, which I as a private individual may then use in any way I see fit? Be that wearing it around my neck to go to a fancy party, or stuffing it in a crack and clipping my lead rope to it.


But it's not actually illegal to manufacture a piece of equipment that does not comply to any EN standard is it? A while ago I learned through this forum that Marlow have been manufacturing a static rope for years that does not comply to EN1891. (It is insufficiently stretchy to comply - exceeding the maximum impact force in drop tests.) Instead they use their own internal standard to self-certify it, and sell it for use for abseil only.


Indeed. And as the original manufacturer I can see how that's a problem for DMM.
But I'm still not entirely convinced it's a compelling reason why some third party couldn't manufacture a sling that just happens to be threaded through a cam that they didn't manufacture and have never owned or supplied to anyone.

For that to be illegal, there has to be a law against it. What law? What regulation, act of parliament, whatever?
If someone set up in the UK offering the same service that Mountain Tools offer in the USA, under what law would they be prosecuted?

In reply to deepsoup:

The Health and Safety at Work act is irrelevant. We are concerned with the application of European Council Directive 89/686/EEC Personal Protective Equipment;- "The PPE Directive applies to PPE intended for use in domestic, leisure and sports activities as well as for professional use."

Climbing equipment comes under section 3 of the APPENDIX GUIDE FOR THE CATEGORISATION OF PERSONAL
PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT. specifically it is Type 3.1
"All protective equipment designed and manufactured to provide protection against falls from a height, private or professional use (working at heights, falling
off boats, mountaineering, rock climbing, speleology, etc.). This category also includes equipment for working at a height and with support (harnesses, thigh
straps, belts, etc.) Note : this equipment includes harnesses (thigh straps, shoulder belts, etc.) and all accessories intended for attaching a person to a structure, with the
exception of anchorage points forming an integral part of the structure or rock face.
For example: for professional use: lanyards,mobile fall arresters, karabiners, energyabsorbers, connectors, anchor points, etc. For mountaineering, rock climbing, and
speleology: dynamic mountaineering ropes, slings, connectors (climbing karabiners), rope clamps, chocks, rock anchors (pitons), ice anchors, ice tools that can serve as an anchorpoint, etc"

You may buy and use anything you like in a recreational environment such as rock climbing. It is illegal for anyone to manufacture, import or caused to be brought onto the market an item for use for rock climbing that does not conform to the requirements of the directive.

"But I'm still not entirely convinced it's a compelling reason why some third party couldn't manufacture a sling that just happens to be threaded through a cam that they didn't manufacture and have never owned or supplied to anyone.

For that to be illegal, there has to be a law against it. What law? What regulation, act of parliament, whatever?
If someone set up in the UK offering the same service that Mountain Tools offer in the USA, under what law would they be prosecuted? "

It would be a breach of 1.4 (c) "suitable PPE accessories and the characteristics of appropriate spare parts; The manufacturer needs to indicate the accessories and spare parts compatible with the PPE in the instructions. The manufacturer is responsible for the design of these accessories and of their compatibility with the PPE."
The relevant British law is `Personal Protective Equipment Regulations 2002 (SI 2002 No 1144)´.

In reply to Kemics:

Beal make some really thin 6mm slings (25kn)
They pass doubled up through the holes in Dragon Cams.
One could loop them onto the stem of the cam, then pass them through the holes like a sling draw. 15cm one the rack, 60 cm extended, you could also knot the sling for an option of 30 or 45cm extension.
Even allowing for loosing half its strength with a larks foot type knot it would still be as strong as the cam, though dyneema does do strange things.
Clearly DMM wouldn't approve.

In reply to jimtitt:

How does this work if someone brought an 'illegal' item like a BigBro back from their holiday for personal use?

In reply to Toerag:


It's fine. The regulations are all about selling, not using.

In reply to jimtitt:
Ok, I get it now, thanks.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Unless you're using your BigBro in the course of running a business it seems. (Guiding, perhaps?)

From Section 2 of the PPE regulations
(available to read in full, zzzzzz, here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/1144/made ):

" that PPE shall be regarded as having been supplied where a person—

(a)being a manufacturer of PPE for his own use; or

(b)having imported PPE from a country or territory outside the Community for his own use,
brings that PPE into service in the course of a business; "

In reply to Richard Justice:

Each to their own, but I wouldn't fancy that much in skinny dyneema.