UKH

Desperate journalism time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-28692548

While we try to wean a generation off MacDonalds and Xboxes the BBC is saying - with bugger all evidence to support the report - that you really shouldn't take your kids up mountains.

I had actually thought that the BBC was above such tabloid excesses.

In reply to andyathome:
Strange post! I went to the link,nothing on the page it took me to has the BBC saying what you say it was saying.It reports what various people said,that's all. Where on that link does the BBC say we really shouldn't take kids up mountains?

In reply to andyathome:

It's the "Snowdonia park wardens" saying that, not the BBC.

Isn't a park warden someone who tells you to keep off the grass and not to feed the birds, and who chases kids spotted smoking behind the sheds?

This doesn't seem particularly concerning.

In reply to andyathome:
That was my first thought, but I think it's just poorly written. Judging from the quote further down I think what they mean is "Don't drag them all the way to the summit if they're not old enough; it's sometimes safer to just go as far as they are comfortable, and then turn around and go back." They seem to be trying to discourage summit fever leading to knackered kids needing rescuing, I think.

In reply to haydn:

This ^. The BBC employs some idiotic Daily Mail-esque journalists. If I was the warden who they paraphrased, I'd be pretty effing mad they'd taken my words out of context.

In reply to haydn:

Its interesting to see this article from the Mountain training suggesting a more measured response. http://www.mountain-training.org/latest-news/enjoy-the-mountains-with-your-... I get the feeling that the park press release may have been done in haste.

In reply to andyathome:
Deleted my previous, intemperate reply, with apologies to the OP.
J

In reply to andyathome:

have they edited the article since you put up the OP?

here's the quote from the park warden:

Head of wardens and access Mair Huws said: "Walking on mountains can be very challenging even in the summer and taking tired young children to a mountain summit isn't fun.

"It can result in children having very negative attitudes towards walking for the rest of their lives."

paraphrasing the headline

Snowdonia trails not summits safety advice for families

from that seems pretty reasonable. and the advice seems pretty reasonable- dont drag knackered kids to the summit

on the scale of tabloid excesses and desperate journalism, this isnt really hacking murdered childrens' phones

and is the BBC really saying that 'you shouldnt take your kids up mountains'- or it that just shoddy journalism by you, putting words into their mouths..?

cheers
gregor

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I was dragged up summits as a knackered kid. Now, if I'm not riding horses, I'm in the mountains - climbing, mountaineering, skiing, walking. Worked for me...

In reply to James Jackson:

There are exceptions to almost every rule.

In reply to andyathome:

The BBC's online news content is terrible.

Example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28730183
Wiggins wasn't anywhere near the front all race, he was merely an also ran.

And why do they think their readers are incapable of dealing with more than one sentence in a paragraph?

In reply to Trevers:





No mention of the two brits who actually won the race! excellent

In reply to andyathome:

I think the phrase at the beginning: "the national park authority is warning families with young children away from its peaks" is the unfortunate one. It is a misrepresentation of what was actually being said later on to not push your children to far in trying to reach a prticular summit. Not that you shouldn't go out in the hills at all with your children.

What is perhaps even more distracting is over half the article isn't even about this. It refers to three incidents. One for a young man and woman, one for a man in his 70s and one for a pair of young men. No exhausted children requiring rescue.

Without any other information, you could infer tired children aren't actually much of a problem...for once

In reply to mountainbagger:

The link from the main news page reads - ''Stay away' from Snowdonia summits'.

In reply to andyathome:

It also implies that "false" mountain paths (whatever they are) are being removed (whatever that involves) by the park authority on the advise of a coroner.

In reply to Andy Say:

Well, they've got to get people to click on the link I suppose

In reply to andyathome:

I suppose one common scenario you might reasonably worry about is: unfit father takes unfit 6 year old into hills, unfit 6 y.o. gets too tired to walk any more, unfit father gets too tired to carry him/her out. I bet that happens.

In reply to andyathome:

Those who don't know better may heed this advice - and for them it is probably good advice (don't drag your toddler up Snowdon when you have little/no mountain experience).

Those who know better will ignore this advice, so what harm is done?

In reply to andyathome: I was recently in Slovakia and several times met spirited 7-9 year olds who had hiked to the top of 2000m plus mountains, sometimes with chains on exposed parts and they seemed to be having a fantastic time. By contrast, my sisters overweight daughter can hardly lift herself out of her armchair and spends all day playing games on her computer. I know which ones I think are healthiest!

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I have to admit that the scenario you outline has never, ever kept me awake at night. And, actually, I don't think it does happen.

There is a '60something year old father goes cragging with his teenage kids and gets severely burnt off' scenario that does give me some concern however.

I guess its just the contrast between the tabloidy 'perceived risk' of the 'dangerous mountains' and real risk - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28746425

In reply to andyathome:

Oh come on. It surely does. I've been careful taking small kids into the mountains, but I've been close to this scenario myself. And I know what I'm doing (more or less).

In reply to redsonja:
Aye - those little taterniks are awesome aren't they. They haven't been told that 'they can't'. And the normal foul weather gear is a wee pac-a-mac with a pixie hood!

Makes you feel overdressed. And a bit soft......

In reply to andyathome: Absolutely. As you say, they haven't been told 'They can't' and it's perfectly normal for them to spend long days in the mountains. Not only that, but when I told them what stars they are, they chattered away to me in better English than mine! Top kids

In reply to redsonja:


Sounds bloody brutal to me.

In reply to Tim Chappell:
I think a lot of it comes from personal agendas - daddy wants to get to the top; the kid couldn't care less. Daddy says it'll be fun but apparently it doesn't seem that way when they're halfway up, soaked to the bone, freezing cold and, in some case, hopelessly lost.

To highlight what I mean about agendas here's a little anecdote:

I was hired to lead a group of scouts the other month and the Scout leaders told me what their plans were - Up Tryfan, down to bwlch tryfan, up to Glyder Fawr and fach, down to llynau y cwn and, if time allows, up y garn (bearing in mind these were 11-13 yr olds, some of which had never walked up a mountain before, I was thinking "we'll see about that!"). We only just made it to the summit of Tryfan when one of the leaders said "You know, I don't think we're going to make it to the Glyders!".

In reply to GrahamD:
It may sound like that. But then you grow up near the mountains in a hiking family it's normal. I was like that in north Russia. Since I was able to walk my parent would take me with them.

So if a kiddo starts to walk in hills, forest and taiga once he's 4, by the age of 6 he will have experience from dozens of backpacking hikes and where's no reason he shouldn't be on the mountain by 7-9 year old.

In reply to nutme:

My 6 and 8 year olds enjoyed scrambling up Tryfan last week... no whinging or moaning. Like you say if it's normal there's no reason to stay away.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

So it couldn't just be something simple like a lack of experience, or over estimation of capabilities, or under estimation of how bad that rain might get...I plead guilty to all of these at some time or other.

I spent years dragging my kids up mountains, often on sunny warm days, sometimes on cold rainy ones.

Now my kids drag me up stuff while I pretend I can keep up.

My agenda, oh yes I remember, it was trying to be a good parent. ?.still trying actually. Hmmm agenda...?

In reply to Wainers44:
It's a combination of both but unfortunately some people are unable to tell where their conscious competence ends and their unconscious incompetence begins.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

That word competence is an interesting one in this context. I had to renew one of my formal competence "tests" recently, not my mountaineering one as it goes but a test none the less.

I dont recall doing a parental competence test (just as well?!?) but I do remember quite a few times when others seemed to feel they had to judge my competence in being out with my kids in the mountains. Odd sniffy comments, funny looks, you know the stuff.

Obviously not you or I, but I do wonder why the more time some people spend in the hills themselves the more judgemental and less tolerant of others they get!

In reply to Wainers44:

Working on Snowdon I get to see some startling parenting. I once saw One kid being berated for being tired near the top by his dad who was basically dragging him by the wrist. I try not to judge people's parenting but when you see stuff like that it does make me think these people would benefit from some kind of training!

In reply to JIMBO: sounds like you have 2 great kids there

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Training has its place sure. However one way of looking at the original story is "national park tells families to learn through experience somewhere else".

Is it worse that parents subject their kids to the risk of obesity and heart disease or injury in the mountains through misjudgement? If only it were so simple!

In reply to Wainers44:

I think you are jumping the gun a little there. Not taking your child into the mountains isn't going to make them fat.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Maybe so, but taking a child for a walk further they think they want to go isnt going to make them hypothermic either.

In reply to Wainers44:

Of course not. If I turned around with a group because of one kid saying they're cold we wouldn't make it out of the car park!

I'm getting at the fact that some people SHOULD turn back but often don't know when (bad) to or don't want to (worse).

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I get that, I was just being flippant!

I find its odd to reflect that now I walk a few hundred miles each year in moors and mountains directly responsible for other people's kids, that weighs a whole lot heavier than being responsible for my own kids in years gone by.

Its getting that balance right between interest and excitement on one hand and manageable risk on the other.

In reply to Wainers44:
Apologies. It's often hard to get humour in type!


There's a definite skill to getting that balance right. I'll be honest and admit I've got it slightly wrong on a few occasions!

In reply to Wainers44:


No. But taking them up Snowdon in nothing but T-shirts on a day when it is warm and sunny in Llanberis, but cold and blowing a gale on the top of Snowdon is. And I have been witness to such foolery on more than one occasion. The problem is that all is well until you are nearly at the top when conditions change dramatically and because said family have invested so much getting to that point, what possible harm can come from pushing up the last few hundred metres?

In reply to Simon4:

I'm guessing that child had more mountain experience than 95% of the adults that climb Snowdon? :P

In reply to ByEek:

A bit like Everest then, really?

Edit: But waaaaaaaaay less serious.

I've had a look at the Llanberis MR website and can't see many instances of hypothermic kids being rescued.

In reply to ByEek:

However it doesn't need to be the mountain top to see this sort of thing. It isn't limited to Snowdon either.

We all know that youngsters can succumb in these conditions faster than grownups but over the years I have seen far more inappropriately dressed adults than children in the mountains!

I was one of those kids who was dragged along behind behind dad through my formative years; I walked from okehampton to ivybridge in two days aged 10, and whilst I didn't necessarily enjoy it at the time it did build my resilience and give me an abiding life long love of the mountains. Looking back my dad (a primary teacher and "walking group leader") was reasonably progressive with what he did with me. We started with the southwest coast path before moving onto Dartmoor and then Snowdonia and Scotland and finally a 14 day circuit in the Stubai alps in my early teens. I remember being thrilled to be allowed out on my own in winter conditions at 15 to cross moorland near cadair idris. My old man said he didn't feel like finishing and that he'd go back to the car and drive around and meet me further on. Looking back I think he was playing me!

In contrast a couple of years ago me and dad went for a trot up the pyg track as he claimed he hadn't climbed Snowdon since the early sixties. ( he doesn't like crowds!) At the little scramble step around the point where it joins the miners we met a very "urban" chap from Birmingham who was with his 7 year old son and and 4 year old daughter. There were still snow patches on the ground and the cloud was sat at about 700m. They were I street clothes, trainers and Pac a macs. The daughter was clearly exhausted, but the dads only concern was how long it would take him to get for the top and how keen he was for his son to get up there as it would "make him strong". No regard for his little girl at all. I don't normally stop to criticise others but he flagged us down and asked for our advise on timings as predictably, he had no map etc. my old man, enjoying the right to bluntness that goes with age, said "at that pace, 4 hours to the top, 6 back down and your little girl won't make it". The bloke expressed every intention of pushing on, although we didn't see him on our return, hopefully he saw sense.

I try very hard not to be judgemental, having been on the receiving end of some very patronising and unsolicited advice on the hill which was annoying to say the least, but I can't help but think that that bloke was a proper knob.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Well it was a lot safer to take him up an Alpine peak than to go on a bike ride on mountain roads - for us that is, especially me. It would certainly have killed me to try to keep up with him up some of the steep cols. And don't even THINK about trying to keep up with him skiing.

In reply to andyathome:




try googling 'snowdon rescue hypothermia child', apart from the first hit, there seems to be a lot if it about...

gregor

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


It definitely mentions the winner (singular). It also doesn't say anything about Wiggins leading most of the way.

In reply to The New NickB:


Yeah, that's been edited since I read it last. There was definitely no mention of the winner!

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Really? Looks like one story where the "son" rescued was 17. That one is repeated about 5 times, cant really see too many others.

My google might not be full strength though!

If you consider just how many families, people in flip flops, OAP's, dog walkers, fell runners and other undesirables walk Snowdon thats not a long list of hypothermic child rescues in that context.

B*gger, just realised that I tick all but one of those undesirables boxes!

In reply to Wainers44:

You know, I've never seen anyone walk up snowdon in a pair of flip flops! I hear this tale from a lot of people but I've never witnessed it myself. No high heels or miniskirts either...

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

The ones I saw were gold flip flops too! Not that I wear gold ones, well hardly ever....

In reply to Wainers44:

I reckon I could walk up and down snowdon barefoot

In reply to Wainers44:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/4741764.stm

the llanberis mountain rescue one, aug 27th

from the cavinguk one:


On the day we were there, there were rescues of unconscious hypothermic walkers, and we helped a hypothermic child whose coat was useless, and whose jeans rapidly (predictably) turned into a skin-removing, soggy mess. Many other children had been dragged in tears to the top by their idiotic parents, without anything like enough windproof or waterproof clothing. The day afterwards, when the winds were 27 m/s (60 MPH), a hypothermic 2 year old child was rescued after being carried to the top - how is a child supposed to keep warm in these conditions when they are doing no exercise?


those are from hits 3, 4 and 5 on my google- maybe your google needs new batteries....?



the difference is all the others choose to be there themselves and take the consequences (well, except for the dogs).

i think i'm only in one of the undesirable categories (but accelerating towards the OAP one at a frightening rate..!)

cheers
gregor

In reply to no more....




You could be right! I admit that I ignored the caving one as that was more of an anecdote than a proper report.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-28587724

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I don't recall flip-flops, but the last time I did the Pyg Track there were several Asian families with the ladies in saris and gold sandals.

In reply to andyathome:

I've seen an elderly and unfit-looking lady in a cotton dress on top of The Ben, wearing sandals and carrying a carrier bag. On the same day we passed a couple coming down the zig zags; the young woman's high-heeled sandals must have been OK going up the slope but coming down, her feet were bleeding and she was crying quietly to herself. Meanwhile her boyfriend stood watching her and asking impatiently: "What's the matter? D'ye not like the stones?" Her reply: "Of course I don't like the f***ing stones!"

In reply to andyathome:



I suppose you make a point. There do seem to be quite a lot of accidental (preventable) deaths near the top of Snowdon, but to take the More or Less stance, one should ask what the accidental death rate for the UK as a whole is and then compare it to the rate at the top of Snowdon based on the number of visitors per year. Alas I don't have the figures but they could be similar in which case perhaps this isn't an issue at all?

In reply to andyathome:
Most internet news has just one purpose - to generate links back to its source, it doesn't matter if the news item has any substance or not! It worked in this case obviously as we all know mountains are as safe or as dangerous as you want them to be

In reply to Martin W:

Thanks Martin. Strange that coroner should instigate this, aren't they better trained at other things?

I wonder how sustainable it is too, surely false paths will be formed when people explore off the usual route, and over time this will lead to more false paths.

Can we expect people who stray off the fixed route to be attacked by NPA staff with stones, like Ueli Steck and his friends on Everest?

In reply to Martin W:

With apologies for appearing disrespectfully frivolous, I always rather liked the advice included in the descent description for Puig Campana's "Espolon Central" in the various editions of Rockfax's Costa Blanca guide:

"Note that the whole mountain is covered with goat tracks and goats don't always know where they are going."