/ Look bike frame - help for the ignorant

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Jimbo W on 17 Dec 2012
Hi Guys,

I need urgent help. Wife has just asked for new chain sets, rear cassette +/- derailers (if necessary) to get for her Look bike. She currently has campag? stuff, and she has 5x on the cassette and 2x on the front. She has just started cycling again, but is finding that she doesn't have the strength / fitness to get up even the hill outside our flat, so she wants some thing with a lot easier gears. I have four problems:
a) I don't have a clue about this stuff
b) I don't have her manual or know the exact model, but the frame looks identical to this:
http://i48.tinypic.com/2aje7nl.jpg
c) I'm not sure what kind of money I should be spending on it (I'm not rich!!)
d) I don't know whether I'll have to change everything at once, or whether her campag derailers stuff would do for a different chain set

Any help and wisdom greatly appreciated! Thanks.
balmybaldwin - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Providing you stick with Campag, the derailuers will probably still be OK, but will probably benefit from a nice set of new cables & outers.

RE:gearing, have a look at compact chainsets, these allow much smaller ratios that will make quite a difference.

The only real problem I would see here is the 5 speed cassettes are getting quite rare now, so you would be unlikely to find a decent range of ratios. It might be worth seeing if you can upgrade her to 7 or 8 speed (although this may mean a new rear wheel, and new shifters which probably wont be in keeping with the rest of the bike.

Some of the guys on here have some pretty special aging steeds that will be able to help a lot more than I can.

One option could be to go to the bike shop of her choice and get a voucher for her to choose exactly what she wants?
Dauphin - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

>She has just started cycling again, but is finding that she doesn't have the >strength / fitness to get up even the hill outside our flat, so she wants >some thing with a lot easier gears.

2 weeks of practice does wonders for this - normally cheaper & more satisfying. Rx a swift dose of WTFU.

D
Jimbo W on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Dauphin:

> >She has just started cycling again, but is finding that she doesn't have the >strength / fitness to get up even the hill outside our flat, so she wants >some thing with a lot easier gears.
>
> 2 weeks of practice does wonders for this - normally cheaper & more satisfying. Rx a swift dose of WTFU.

I suggested this...! it didn't go down too well!! But I agree, though I am cycle fit albeit on a Giant OCR2 that is >5 years old, and I have to say its pretty rock hard climbing steep hills on her bike!
JLS on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

This could be a compatability nightmare.

1) Gear Indexing - If you're lucky the bike currently doesn't have any in which case you'd stick with the friction shift and perhaps you'd get away with having the rear block of cogs changed maybe need a longer cage rear gear mech. to cope with that.

2) Changing the chainset - The axle length might not be suitable for a triple chanset and replacing it might be difficult as that frame might have French bottom bracket threads with would limit the options for new kit considerably.

3) Going the hold hog and replacing the back wheel with a new cassette type is going to cost you by the time you also replace the gear mechs and brake levels (incorporating gear levers). Also the frame is probably too narrow to fit modern wheel anyway. As well fitting a new front mech. could also be difficult in it's not a "braze-on" type the band size for that frame could be weird.

In short your Local Bike Shop could probably cobble something together but if you can't do it youself it probably make more sense to go to Decathlon and buy a new 300 Triband bike. Might not be as good as the Look was in its day but probably better than the results of a fix-up job.
Orgsm on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

In simple terms.

You want a smaller number of teeth on the small chainring at the front, and / or a larger number of teeth on the largest cassette ring at the back. That will help her get up the hills more easily. Generally 5,6,7 can use the same chains, 8,9,10 use a narrow chain. So if you jump to 8,9,10 ring cassettes then you'll need to factor in a new chain and also cranks or the chain will drop between rings at the front as well. If you change manufacturer the pull ratios of the levers often changes (but not always). So you would have to change both levers, and the deraillier. New cables will also be in order. If you move from a double chainring at the front (x2) to a triple chainring at front (x3); you'll need new levers, new daraillier and new cranks.

5 Speed cassettes date from the 1980's and much earlier. I had one on the racer I got for my 18th. On the front you can now get 24t small chain rings for road bikes. The bike will use friction levers rather than indexed levers which came about in the 1990's. So you may be able to fit a 24t ring on the existing front chain ring as well (by replacing the small ring). That would probably be your cheapest option. The BCD (distance in mm between the bolts) would need to be 74mm or less. You can get these aftermarket; they don't have to be campag. If the chain drops off the small ring due to the decreased diameter; you can get a chain catcher which can be had for 14.99. I have one on my bike and no more dropped chains with the smaller ring. If you post a picture of the cranks and any marking, we might be able to find out what cranks she has.

You might want to try the cycling forums where someone can give some detailed advice on upgrade options and costs. They may even have something suitable to sell to you.,

Try www.yacf.co.uk or the ctc forum.

Of course assuming the bike is steel (it probably is). You may be better off selling it as a project for someone, as steel racers from the 60's/70's/80's can fetch good money as "classics". You could then spend the money on a new bike for your girlfriend. not a classic, but more suited to getting her up them there hills.

Good look.
JLS on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Intrestingly I note the frame in the picture has cable guides on the head tube which suggest it was made for brake lever gear changers which in turn suggests it should have at least an 8-speed cassette...
JLS on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Some photos of the actual bike might help. Of particular intrest would be a close up views around the drive chain.
Orgsm on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Forget my comment on pull ratios as well, as that applies to indexed gearing. for the friction shifters (on the down tube), you just shift them as much as you need...

Just had a quick look and 24t front chainrings are currently 22.
Jimbo W on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to JLS:

Okay, I'll take some pictures tonight. I was about to suggest that that might help!! She said she had 5 on the cassette, but maybe that's wrong.

If you look on the website, the frame looks like the 1999 picture on the look history page:
http://www.lookcycle.com/en/all/look-cycle/histoire.html
kevin stephens - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: Buy new stem and saddle so she can ride your bike. Similar for her bike so you can ride it. You can then both traIn in harmony on the same hill, and you will both get a lot stronger
Jimbo W on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to kevin stephens:

Hmm. The frame is smaller, but maybe that might work?!!

Anyway, I've checked the Campag catalogues from the time she got the bike, and there is definitely no 5 speed cassettes, so I must have that wrong, there are definitely only two at the front. From looking, I'm pretty sure her frame is a KG 281, but I guess these could have been sold with any number of different components. I'll do some pictures when I get home from work! Thanks for the help though.
balmybaldwin - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: n

Google retrobike theres a good site there with lots of helpful folk who can advise what you can do and where to find discontinued parts
Horse on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Looks like this one:

http://velospace.org/node/13626

In which case reasonably modern looking and more than 5 on the back.
mark s - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: looks a nice frame,i have a kg381 and its a lovely bike to ride
gjardine - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: That is a nice frame but if you want to buy new gears for it you might struggle. New bikes generally have 9, 10 or 11 speed drive trains so everything is different, the chains are thinner, the bottom brackets are different and the wheels are dished differently. So if you are wanting to modernize you will need new wheels, gears, bottom bracket and chainset. A cheaper option would be to take it to your local bike shop (as long as it is an old independent one) and ask if they have an old 5 speed set of cogs with larger sprockets than you have now.
Jimbo W on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Horse:

> Looks like this one:
>
> http://velospace.org/node/13626
>
> In which case reasonably modern looking and more than 5 on the back.

It's definitely that frame. The forks and headset are different, but the front chain set looks the same as what she has, I can't tell the whether the derailers and cassette are the same though.
Jimbo W on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to mark s:

I think it is a good frame? It's got a couple of windows in the paint work of the frame where you can see that it's carbon fibre, and it's in good condition, but when I first met her she was doing 80miles most saturdays and so it must have done quite some mileage. Does carbon fibre wear? Is this worth getting it up to spec, I can't see any external sign of damage.
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Oh crap. Those have come out tiny! How do I get some photos from my iphone uploaded via wireless so you can see them. Anyone know a good site?

Everything from the changers, brakes, and derailers appears to be branded:
Campagnolo Veloce and the rear cassette is 9 speed
ads.ukclimbing.com
Orgsm on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:


Looks like a 9 speed unless I'm mistaken. How many teeth are there on the largest cog?

lost1977 - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to A Game of Chance:

9 is what i counted as well
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to A Game of Chance:

Chain set:
large - 52
small - ~42

Cassette: I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure the largest has 23

...and yes, it's definitely a 9 speed cassette, I was talking rubbish before.

Is anyone the wiser and able to suggest a way forward here? Thanks.
Orgsm on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:
> (In reply to A Game of Chance)
>
> Chain set:
> large - 52
> small - ~42
>
> Cassette: I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure the largest has 23
>
> ...and yes, it's definitely a 9 speed cassette, I was talking rubbish before.
>
> Is anyone the wiser and able to suggest a way forward here? Thanks.

ok, I think the small chain ring will be 116mm BCD. You should be able to get a 36 tooth 116 BCD chain ring to replace that.

On the rear you should be able to get a 9 speed 13-26 or 13-28 to replace the cassette at the back. That depends on the capacity of the rear deraillier. Do you know the model or can you get a bigger picture of the deraillier posted?

stewart murray - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: It could be as simple as getting a new casesette (rear cogs) with lower ratio.

Campag go down to 28 teeth which isn't ultra low but will make some difference (cost around 40)
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=26066&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Sh...

You may well need a new rear deraillier as they come with different cage lengths and the existing setup will probably be a small whereas you'll need at least a medium
(Cost around 35)

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/derailleurs-rear-campagnolo-xenon-9-speed-rear-dera...

You can change the chain rings but that'll be 40 per ring and they only go down to 39 teeth.

Add another 10 or so for a new chain and you're up to over 100 and won't have significantly lower gearing so best to sell it and put the money towards something newer.
JLS on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to stewart murray:

I think the kit you've identified WOULD be the way to go.

39x28 (36.6") should feel a good bit better than 42x23 (48")

It's obviously a good bike in not too back nick so spending 150 on what are essentially consumables (and probable due replacement anyway), seems reasonable to keep a 1000 bike on the road.
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Jimbo W: Shame it's campag, if it was Shimano or Sram you'd be able to put a mountain bike cassette on it with a long cage rear mech. Put a triple on and you need shifters. If you want to change the rear to shimano you need a new free body, if the hub won't take it you need a new hub. There's ghetto ways round it but she won't love the bike in that set up. My advise, either (I'm taking parts suitable for this bike, cheaper ones are available) 500 odd quid for a drive train and hub, maybe 400 for just a triple and shifters, getto for 50 (ish) but you need a mate.

Or tell her to push the bike up the hill until she get's a bit fitter! Oh, and try flickr.
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Jimbo W: Oh and the suggestion above works too as an improvement over a solution.
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to stewart murray:

I'm pretty sure the back derailers are the veloce 9 speed from one of these links:

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/spares99-B.pdf
http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/spares00-B.pdf
http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/spares01-A.pdf

The first two from 1999 and 2000 look more like what she has, but the pattern of the branding writing is more like the 2001.
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Jimbo W: You don't need a rear mech for that set up. Just the cassette, smaller front chainring and a chain. It's still a hard gear to push though.
JLS on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Yeah, it pretty clear what you've got. Trouble is that rear mech won't cope with the bigger range of gears required to provide gears much lower than you've got. You need a new rear mech. Then a bigger cassette and smaller front ring. Like Stewart says this lot is going to come in at 150 plus fitting and won't give ultra low gears. Most of the work could be done yourself with an allen-key but changing the cassette will need special tools which would probably cost about the same as having your local bike shop do it.

As the bike isn't THAT old compatable kit is still readily avalible which I originally thought might be a problem.

It might also be possible to fit a compact chainset to offer the ultra lower gears but I'm not 100% certain your current bottom bracket and front mech would be compatible - other may be able to say - so going down that road could open an expensive can of worms.

To replace the whole bike with something of that quality is going to set you back best part of a grand.
JLS on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to andreas:

>"You don't need a rear mech for that set up."

Do you think the current mech will cope will 52/39x28?

It's a bit beyond the recomendations but I guess it might work...
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to JLS: It doesn't need a mech. With a 29 on the back there's a small chance you might not get all the gear ratios, I'm confident you'd be fine with a 28. At least try it first.

Don't know about a compact, what kind of bb has it got?
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Jimbo W: BOOM! http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=86319

Take the big chainring off and move the front mech screws :)

Should work until she's a bit fitter then swap back or buy a spanky new compact & bb.
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to andreas: Apologies, I get over excited about getto bike solutions.
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to JLS et al:

Okay, cheers guys for the help, but I confess I haven't quite got my head around all the terminology. So please can I clarify:

1) This should be compatible with the bike she has (not including any discussion of the rear derailer)
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=26066&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Sh...

2) The rear derailer should be able to cope with all of these cogs? And if not, which bit is it likely to struggle with? The largest cog in the rear cassette?

3) On the front chain set, I could go down to a 39x28 (36"). Do I need to source this from Campag?

4) Will I need a new change for either or both of these changes?

5) It looks like the front derailer is a Campag Mirage. Am I likely to need to change this?

What's the best place to source this kit? Is the gearing quite tough as it is? I mean, it didn't feel the easiest going up the hill for me, but it was doable. Thanks again for the help!
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to andreas:

Don't apologise! If that would work, then that'd be gr8, but will it be compatible? Could I forget the rear cassette, and would all chain rings be accessible with the existing front derailer?
subalpine - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: you can get a campag triple and new BB for about 50..
JLS on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:
>
> 1) This should be compatible with the bike she has (not including any discussion of the rear derailer)
> http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=26066&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Sh...

Yes, this is almost certainly the cassette you want - 28 tooth.

> 2) The rear derailer should be able to cope with all of these cogs? And if not, which bit is it likely to struggle with? The largest cog in the rear cassette?

It's not ideal but probably will work good enough. You are likely to be unable to used the big sprockets in the big ring but this shouldn't be too much of a loss.

> 3) On the front chain set, I could go down to a 39x28 (36"). Do I need to source this from Campag?

Doesn't need to be Campag, you should be able to find a cheaper compatible one. (3/32 - 9-speed) you need to know the bolt pitch (BCD), yours looks like BCD 144mm but I'm not 100% sure could be 135mm I suppose.

> 4) Will I need a new change for either or both of these changes?

Changing the front ring to 39 will not require mech changes. 28 rear might.

> 5) It looks like the front derailer is a Campag Mirage. Am I likely to need to change this?

Not if you go with 52/39, if you change to the triple chainset you might.

> What's the best place to source this kit?

Pick from Ribble, Wiggle, Chainreaction, Parker International, Rose bikes.

> Is the gearing quite tough as it is? I mean, it didn't feel the easiest going up the hill for me, but it was doable.

Let's just say that gearing range "isn't fashionable".

The idea of losing the outer ring from that cheap triple is likely to prove unpractical due to how the front mech attatches to the frame, the need to chop or replace the chainring bolts and posible axle length compatiblity issues. To overcome these issues could be technically difficult and/or expensive.
ads.ukclimbing.com
JLS on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to subalpine:

>"you can get a campag triple and new BB for about 50.."

Would the old front/rear mechs cope with the new range?

Are the BB threads definately not French?

Does the shifter cope with a triple?

I don't know but the answers but these questions are cause for doubt.
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Jimbo W:

1) yes

2) The rear mech will give you all the gears but you might not be able to hit the big front ring and the rear big ring. This is the worst gear combination and very bad technique. If you are really cranking you might snap your chain. I call this chain snap mode. I did a six day tour in the summer with my bike in chain snap mode, nearly got it on the second day when I was knackered but was fine the rest of the way.

3) http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=62766 (four different sizes under buy now - 39)

4) yes

5) definitely not unless it's broke

6) The only problem might be chainline, that's the thing about getto, it's all trial and error. If it was me I'd buy it, see if I can make it work without scratching it and if not send it back. Chain reactions take anything back up to a year but check clearance rules. If campag square tapered BB's are compatible you might be able to put a compact straight on it. Do you want me to find out? I could never love a bike with a mixed drivetrain but most people don't mind. I think you just need to take the old crank off, move two screws and possibly shorten the chain. You need specialist tools for this. And it's a 30 - 42.


Me and my mate are very strong riders, I ride a 28 x 39 unless I'm in the mountains where I ride a 32 x 39. It's a hard gear.
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to andreas: I confident that set up won't put you in chain snap mode though.
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to subalpine)
>
> >"you can get a campag triple and new BB for about 50.."
>
> Would the old front/rear mechs cope with the new range?

The shifters are probably two speed so it can only have a double (unless it's built with a spare click, some are). I think you'd need a medium cage rear mech to use a triple.


> Are the BB threads definately not French?

I don't think it matters does it? Campag sell French BB's and it doesn't need changing anyway.

> I don't know but the answers but these questions are cause for doubt.

You can alter the chain line by taking out the drive side BB cup and putting spacers between the cup and frame. This solves any issue with the front mech as long as it's a double. I think :)

mark s - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: i have the same veloce deurallier from a similar era on my look bike,that has a 28 tooth on the cassette
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to andreas et al:

Okay, again thanks for the help. So I'm going to get a rear cassette as above to 28 and I don't think the chain snap should be a problem for her given that she always tells me off when I do that (I now actually understand what she's been going on about!!) So that part of the decision is made.

I don't want to put on a triple, so am going to settle for a double crankset.

So here, I'm still not quite sure what I need. From the manuals listed above, I can't work out what the BCD of the bike is, but I think it is probably 135mm? The crankset I have says:
52/42 on the large ring and
42/C9 on the small ring

I'd like to get a set up with a 39, and together with the change to the cassette I think this should suffice. However, I can't work out if that 39 you've listed will definitely be compatible with what she has. The manuals list chain set veloce part options as follows:
For the years: 1999 to 2001 - 53 for 39, 52 for 42 and 52 for 39
Then 2002 to date - 53 for 39, 52 for 42
...which appears to be the same as now.

So can I just buy that 39, and fit it onto the 52 she has, or do I need to get a 39 and a 53?

Lastly, will I need a new chain? If so what?

I am most grateful for this help, and I have learnt alot!
subalpine - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: 42->39 isn't that much difference. 28->34 on the back would be lower
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Jimbo W: There's 5 bolts holding the two chain-rings together. Don't know about campag but shimano has an allen key on the front and a bolt with a little slot on the back. You need a special tool to stop the rear bolt spinning or a butterknife. Once both chainrings are off (you can slide them over the crank) work out the BCD. Or with a bit of maths leave them on.

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html

The 52 is fine, just put it back on with the 39. The BCD of the one I linked to is 135mm so hope it's that or you need to look for new old parts.

Only change the chain if you change the rear cassete.
The old chain will work fine with any front chainring that isn't really worn down.



If she was doing 80 miles on that set up she sound pretty strong and that might be enough.
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to subalpine:

Going from a max of 23 to 28 on the cassette
And going from a min of 42 to 39 on the chain ring...
...means a going from a gear ratio of 1.83 to 1.39
...and 49.3 gear inches to 37.6

Will this make a noticeable difference?
johnj on 18 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Jimbo W:

Of course it makes a difference look at the gaps and look at the gaps between you shifts in place from this you can work out how many extra theoretical gears you have just bought, its not a spinny granny of a compact but its a few more than what you have.
sleavesley on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: simply yes!
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Jimbo W: I've just thought, they might have reduced the BCD so they can make 39 tooth chainrings.
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to johnj:

What I mean is will my wife be able to get up the hill!!!!??? I mean all things are relative, of course, but she used to be very strong, and I don't want to put her off her new found enthusiasm for getting back on her bike.
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to andreas: Nah it's cool, the chainring I linked to on chain reaction will work, you don't need to measure anything. They changed size in 1990.
johnj on 18 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Jimbo W:

In modern terms its still relevantly high geared if you live somewhere hilly it could be considered a roady setup, i dunno depends if your wife is a spinner or a grinder, If my wanna be girlfriend would come out with me I think she wouldn't have such a high bottom gear well maybe she would but then she's hard that one.
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to andreas:

I think this link is helpful:
http://branfordbike.com/articles/chainrings-pg68.htm

It looks like the BCD has been set at 135mm since the mid 90s, and I've just done a couple of calcs based on the bike pics of the cranks set above and the known distance of 170mm crank, by which I get a value of about 133.28mm through two methods. I don't think Campag have been doing 130mm BCDs so I'm pretty sure this is a 135mm. So if I got to 110mm, I'd have to get a new crank shaft set, right? but what about the bottom bracket?
johnj on 18 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Jimbo W: Ha! That's were I found out... It didn't occur to me to post the link. Weird.

You want a 135mm BCD chain ring and you don't need to remove the crank or touch the BB.

There's 4 sizes in the chain reaction link. The 34 and 50 have a BCD of 110mm and are for a compact crankset.
The size is smaller so the rings don't flex (they flex if they are too far from the bolts)(that's speculation).

The 39mm and 52 or 53mm have a BCD of 135mm and will fit those cranks.
andreas on 18 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to johnj: True dat. English or French BB ;)
stewart murray - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: I notice that you can get a 34 tooth inner chainring. This will give a pretty low gear. The downside is that it's a big leap from 52 to 34 and I'm not sure how the front changer would handle it. Also you'll have a big jump between the gears when changing down at the front from 52 to 34.

Here's a link to some TA Campag compatible rings. They do a 48 outer which would give a decent setup if you replaced the 52 outer with it. You would need to check that it's compatible with your particular chainset though.
http://www.parker-international.co.uk/9311/TA-135pcd-Campag-8-9-10-Chainring.html
ads.ukclimbing.com
johnj on 18 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to andreas: Never heard of the French BB, thought it was the Italians which got one all to themselves, it sounds a bit too old school to be BB30 but you never know :+)
johnj on 18 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to andreas:

In reply to andreas:

Right, so I'm going to get:
9 Speed Cassette:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=32406

Will this help me get in a bike ride on xmas day with her?
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=32406

The 39T inner ring:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=62766
Do the front rings vary at all for different cassettes, i.e. will this suit a 9speed rear cassette? Infact, if you at the close up in that link, you can see it says C10 50/34, and presumably the C10 refers to the speed, whereas her current chain rings have C9 stamped into them.

Will I need to get a new chain, e.g.:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=32406

Is there anything else I should be considering?
johnj on 18 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Jimbo W:

To take off your old cassette you need a chain whip tool, but other than that chain(you may get away with old one but better to fit new), cassette, chain ring(nine and ten rings are pretty interchangeable really) gives you lower bottom gear.
franny on 18 Dec 2012

>
> Is there anything else I should be considering?

An outer ring too.

franny on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to franny:

I assume you've got a chain splitter too?
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to franny:

> An outer ring too.

I was planning on using my existing outer frame as in the pictures I posted above.
Bimbler - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:
It would be better to change the set. See the following link for part of the explanation why and then have a browse of the site. Some really useful information here...
http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html#wear
Lord of Starkness - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

I had a similar Campag setup on my winter hack -- Veloce 9 speed cassette - 14 - 28, and 39 x 53 chainset ( Campag daytona) with a standard veloce 9 speed rear mech with standard cage but my old legs still found it hard work on the steep stuff.

Being a tight sod and not wanting to spend a lot of dosh on the hack I managed to get a nearly new Stronglight 36 - 50 compact chainset off an auction site and that gives me all the gears I want, yet didn't need to worry about a long cage mech as I maintained the 14 tooth chainset difference.

Not quite as low as my summer steed that has a 34-50 compact chainset and 10 speed 13-29 cassette, but I tend to keep off the really silly steep hills in winter!
Lord of Starkness - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

If the original kit is all campag, then its a good chance the cassette is as well. They are NOT interchangeable with Shimano or Sram as the spline arrangement on the freehub is completely different. Also you'll be better getting a campag specific lockring removal tool as the shimano / cylo one has a slightly different tooth profile and can slip when used on a campag lockring.
stewart murray - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: I would give some thought changing both chainrings to 48 / 34. I know it'll cost another 40 for a new outer chain ring but would give, in my opinion, both lower and a more usable range of gears than a 52 / 39 setup. Also as mentioned in the last post, you can get problems if you have worn chainrings and fit a new chain, or run a worn chain on new cogs, so changing chainrings, chain and cogs means it will all run smoothly.
Jimbo W on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to stewart murray:

Ok. But, from what I can work out, that would mean I'd need a whole new chain set and bottom bracket, and derailer? Do you know where I could get such a setup that would fit the frame? I'm not very savvy or confident about this!
Bimbler - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

To be honest although all the advice here is pretty sound, I think you need to get yourself down to a real bike shop!
JLS on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

I'm sure he means just replace both rings and keep your current cranks. Getting a new compact chainset would be the best solution but I still think there a potential problems with doing that however Lord Stark seems to have managed it ok so I guess you will most likely be ok too to do that.

Ie. new cassette, compact chainset, new chain.
themuppet - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W: Hi Jimbo W, here's what I have used to combat a similar problem with a friend's bike.

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/chainsets-chainsets-road-stronglight-impact-jis-com...

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/cassettes-cassettes-bbb-9-speed-cassette-campag/bbb...

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/chains-chains-kmc-x9-x973-9spd-chain-grey-grey/kmca...

The 34/50 chainset should bolt straight on to your existing bottom bracket, it might be a few mm out of line one way or the other but it shouldn't matter. Looking at your photo, there looks to be plenty of room on the mech hanger to drop the front mech down to a 50T chainring.

A 12/27 cassette coupled with 34T on the front will give you a nice and low bottom gear, about the same as a triple with a 25T rear sprocket.

You won't need to change either of your mechs or shifters this way, there is a small chance you might need a new bottom bracket to suit the chainset, but I would give it a go and see if it works.

Hope that helps, Tim



andreas on 19 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to johnj: Lol, I rode a Peugeot once, no word of a lie, I was cranking up a hill and the f*cking drive side pedal snapped! Skip!
Rigid Raider - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

As you'll have guessed by now you're opening up a huge can of worms, restoring that old bike isn't going to be simple at all. In any case modern bikes with compact frame design and compact or triple cranks and a nice comfortable carbon fork are so much easier to ride. You can get one by buying a Triban 3 from Decathlon, which will cost you 299.99. Factor in another 100 for some entry-level Shimano wheels (Triban wheels are crap) and she will be as happy as Larry.
Jimbo W on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Rigid Raider:

For sustainability and because she loves her bike, I don't think that'll be a goer.
Jimbo W on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to JLS:

Well that sounds fine, but the BCD is 135mm and I can't find a set of chain rings of that BCD, so surely I'd have to change the cranks? I mean, if that we're possible or something like it, that would be good! J
JLS on 19 Dec 2012
ads.ukclimbing.com
johnj on 19 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Jimbo W: Hello, yeah you'd have to change the full chainset cranks bottom bracket and chainrings, if you want campag rings these will cost the same price as a full chainset anyway.

Its not a difficult job, any half decent bike shop should be able to source and fit a suitable set up for not much more than 100 quid, job would take anything from 1/2 hour to an hour dependent if anything else needed doing.

JLS on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Yeah, sorry i misread a post, you'll only get down to 39 with your current cranks.
Jimbo W on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to JLS:

Sorry, I meant the 48/34 Stewart referred to!

So what if I go for a 110mm BCD, I'd need a new crank and bb, what about the front derailer? Can anyone point to such a compatible campag set up? I'd still put the 14 to 28 cassette on, presuming that we're compatible?

Thanks again! Amazing how many helpful people there are who know about such stuff!
johnj on 19 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Jimbo W:

You can get campag compact chainset for just over 100 without bottom bracket, as your frame will more than likely be 68mm shell english bottom bracket, and these campag compacts are quite modern you'd have to source a bottom bracket to fit, which will add about 20-50 quid at least. then you need to remove the old bottom bracket which requires tools add 20 quid then need tools to fit new one

(note at this point new campag chainset may fit your axle, however it may not and upon inspection it may be worn, and if you're fitting a new chainset for completeness sake you should always remove, re-grease the threads and refit, so in a lot of cases you'd fit a new axle at this point.

Front mech will work, rear mech will work, fit new chain and cassette and really should fit cables check mech hanger for straightness set up and test ride. With campag you aint gonna get much change from 200 notes. Then you have a look at tyres and there's a bit of a nick, not good at 40 plus, brake blocks are worn, rims need a quick true up, back hubs a bit creaky, she never did get on with that saddle ect ect....

johnj on 19 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
johnj on 19 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
JLS on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Campag have stopped doing square tapper chainsets so unless you are lucky enough to find old stock, you'll have to either also get a new style bottom bracket or go with another maker like this...

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=78792

...(or others models perviously posted) and risk jis/iso taper compatibility issues causing the new chainset to be too close to the frame.

It's really hard to give a definitive answer to this sort of stuff as some of the developments of the kit and diffrences between makers are quite subtle i.e. some things cause headaches and some dont make any diffrence at all.

It would be easy if you could through money at the problem but working out the cheapest solution that will all hang together is a bit of a nightmare as can be seen from the length of this thread.
JLS on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to JLS:

Also there are the tooling issues. Once you get into changing bottom brackets you then need one set of tools to get the old one out and another set to get the new one in.
Jimbo W on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to everyone:

When my da had a heart attack, they asked him what he wanted, operation, angio+stent or thrombolysis. He's a doctor, but he still left it for them to decide... ..."you're the experts"... ...so, okay.. ..I'm not inclined to go ghetto. So what would you do, with say a max of 200squids.
JLS on 19 Dec 2012
andreas on 19 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Jimbo W: 28 on the back, Campag compact on the front & BB if you can afford it, anything else if you can't, service (cables, brake blocks, grease and clean, tryes if needed). All from a bike shop! :)


Can anyone recommend a good bike shop in Arnisdale?
andreas on 19 Dec 2012 - host86-149-182-100.range86-149.btcentralplus.com
In reply to JLS: Will you please stop reading my mind!
Jimbo W on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to andreas:

Actually in Dundee at the moment. There's "spokes", but they're quite expensive. Not sure of other shops. I actually think my wife will have some of the tools and she certainly used to do all her own bike servicing, but I take the point about the specialised tools!
johnj on 19 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Jimbo W:

So a mate of mine is talking to a mate of his who's a wholesale bike and part importer, if you know the trade you'd have heard of the name of the companies. So he gives me some breakdowns on profit margins of bikes to parts, and as anybody knows the margin of the parts compared to the bikes is off the scale. You can easily see this if you try to build a bike from parts rather than buying one off the peg....

So the moral (if that's the right word of this story is) compile a shopping list with what you want and take it into your favoristist local shop with the best high street inertweb price. Say this is what you want or maybe they have something better, and knowing the mark up on price of parts, they should be able to do the service if not for free for a very good price. I worked in the cycle trade both as a mechanic and a sometimes guide for quite a few years so this isn't something what people don't do, we all need to find good deals in life.

Or just scrap all that buy all your parts of the interweb, find some local ukc type bike person and do a little trade like christmas cake and ale for helping to fit shiney new parts :+_)
Rigid Raider - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Since you're determined to resurrect the bike rather than buy a new one, here's a bit of advice from someone who has already done the same (I "modernised" a 1990 Harry Hall in Columbus SLX steel): don't go for an old-fashioned square taper BB and chainset, the modern "Hollowtech" type setup is much more rigid and efficient and probably lighter - this is where the axle is a hollow tube attached permanently to the RH crank and rings and the LH crank is attached with pinch bolts. They are noticeably stiffer and more efficient especially when you fit them to an old steel frame. Unless your wife is an Olympic athlete she will do fine with "compact" cranks, which means chainrings of 50/34, unless she wants a triple, where she could have 50/40/30, a very useful combination. Give consideration also to the length of the cranks, she probably won't want 175mm, might be better with 170mm or 172.5mm depending on leg length. A good bike shop will advise - where are you in the country?
MarkM - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to andreas:
> (In reply to Jimbo W) Shame it's campag, if it was Shimano or Sram you'd be able to put a mountain bike cassette on it with a long cage rear mech.

Might be too late for this input but when I looked into this issue my friendly local bike mechanic suggested using a campag to shimano pulley converter e.g. see http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.php
Went down that route and it has worked really well on my Ribble over the last 12 months

Cheers
Mark
Jimbo W on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Rigid Raider:

> Since you're determined to resurrect the bike rather than buy a new one, here's a bit of advice from someone who has already done the same (I "modernised" a 1990 Harry Hall in Columbus SLX steel): don't go for an old-fashioned square taper BB and chainset, the modern "Hollowtech" type setup is much more rigid and efficient and probably lighter - this is where the axle is a hollow tube attached permanently to the RH crank and rings and the LH crank is attached with pinch bolts. They are noticeably stiffer and more efficient especially when you fit them to an old steel frame. Unless your wife is an Olympic athlete she will do fine with "compact" cranks, which means chainrings of 50/34, unless she wants a triple, where she could have 50/40/30, a very useful combination. Give consideration also to the length of the cranks, she probably won't want 175mm, might be better with 170mm or 172.5mm depending on leg length. A good bike shop will advise - where are you in the country?

Thanks. In Dundee at the moment, but travel around over most of Scotland regularly. Spoke to her last night. She said she didn't use the 52 outer all that much, and mostly used the 42 inner. She didn't have to walk up hills though. She was always wanting to do more spinning and make it feel more aerobic with less strain on the heart. She'd definitely by going for a 170mm, but she's not bothered about having a triple. She used to set off from Broughty Ferry via the back country routes, though to blairgowrie and dunkeld, down towards Perth and back to Dundee via the country routes on her usual Saturday cycle. She was fit, but I wouldn't say she was a powerful rider. She did lots of variations, up through glenshee to Braemar etc. Can you point me to the hollow set up you refer to? e.g. a whole package? Thanks.
johnj on 20 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Jimbo W:

Hollowtech is shimanos version of the isis bottom bracket different ammount of splines tho'. Hollowtech 2 has a pipe axle and larger bearings, I've allready posted an example of Hollowtech 2 up the thread. You don't really want to get invovled with hollowtech as bearing races are too small hollowtech 2 though is as good as anything up to bb30. I think i need to write a little c sharp script for things like this in future

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_bracket
johnj on 20 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Jimbo W: hollowtech was also called octolink, the hollowtech bit comes from when they started to manufacture these cranks they were no longer solid i.e hollow tech
Jimbo W on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

I've decided I'm going to get her a new 110mm crankset and a new rear cassette.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=86368
and the BBs to go with it.

I have a 9s veloce campag rear derailed, should I get a 10s or a 9s rear cassette? And will the front derailer and shifters that I have work?

And, just a note to say thanks to everyone for the help and input. Very much appreciated. Have a gr8 christmas everyone.
johnj on 21 Dec 2012 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Jimbo W: as your shifters are 9 speed you need a nine speed rear cassette, 10 speed is different spacing and wont work. Front mech will be fine just needs adjusting and lowering which more than likely requires new cable.

happy Christmas too x
JLS on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to Jimbo W:

Than link shows 175mm long cranks which would seem a long for that size of bike.
Jimbo W on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to JLS:

You're right. I'm going for 170mm.

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