UKH

Simply I need some belay stakes for the top of a sea cliff (there's nothing but short grass to belay on) and I was wondering what the general consensus is on:

- What to use for the stake (materials wise)?

- How long the stake should be (Ie how deep it's going to need to be hammered into the grass/earth).

I'm planning on using 2 stakes for abseiling/belaying anyway but I was just wondering if anyone could offer some helpful advice so I can make them. There doesn't seem to be any commercial options and I don't like the idea of snow pickets due to the expense and the lightwieght metal getting damaged after a lot of use.

Any help would be apprieciated and thank you in advance.

(P.S. I've searched UKC and it didn't really bring anything helpful up)

In reply to mlmatt:


Jim's page has tons of info, scroll down for stakes

http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

In reply to mlmatt: The definitive reference on stakes is on UKC regular Jim Titt's ever useful website - see http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm (you will need to scroll down to the section on stakes).

That should answer all your questions.

If not then Jim will not doubt be along in person at some stage.

In reply to lithos: lol, it seems my searching for the link was slower than yours...

In reply to mlmatt:

Well I think you both deserve a thank you, so thank you

In reply to mlmatt:

dont thank us, thank Jim he did all the work then write it up and published it.

he'da man

In reply to mlmatt:

contact some marquee companies and get some of the long stakes they use. 4 ft long, with a hear on top and they hold down f-ing huge tents - i'd be happy if i saw those at the top of a route.

In reply to mlmatt: I'd of thought these would do the job, quite reasonably priced as well.

http://www.blackcountrypins.co.uk/html/pricelist_mp.asp?custid=0&nm=&am...

In reply to mlmatt:

The newish BMC stake at Pembroke are one metre long, but i happily abseil off just one, even when it isn't all the way in. Stakes are stronger than you'd think!

In reply to Dan Lane: I think you need to be carefull making sweeping statements about stakes. They vary greatly in quality from the "can hold a Volvo" types to the ones where only a few centimeters of rusted metal is left underground and an would topple under an assault from an arthritic Vole.

To the OP Angle Iron, Re-bar and as mentioned above scaff tubes all make good stakes.

In reply to mlmatt:
I guess in your search you didn't toggle "older posts" there is lots to read http://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=9&dates=1&na...

Anyway as you can see above I now use galvanised scaffold pole 5ft (1.5m) long, they are a brute to put in but you would be happy with one! Remember the force needed to knock a stake in is equivalent to the force needed to pull it out
Black Country Pins have some good products BUT they are not galvanised so unsuitable for a sea cliff. Angle iron as suggested above rusts very readily and has resulted in some of the more dangerous stakes at Swanage.
.
The general rule for a sea cliff with grass and dirt at the top is make it as long as you can while still able to beat it in, and use thick, galvanised material. If the stake can withstand being driven in with a 5kg hammer it will be strong enough.

In reply to scott titt:

Didn't realise I could toggle older posts on. I was surprised that there wasn't more posting about stakes really!

I've also had a look at the black country pins and you're right, they aren't really suitable.

In reply to mlmatt:
I think Lyon might be able to help. My brother is an industrial type blacksmith and what started out as ground anchors for 4WD winching evenst are n ow sold (through Lyon I think) as belay stakes and are apparently used by MRT's. They are either t shaped or angle iron, usually 50mm and galvanised. Reinforced at the top and drill for a whopping big shackle.

In reply to mlmatt:

While not wishing to disagree with Scott Titt (nor his brother!), once you go over a certain length of stake, then I reckon the law of diminishing returns applies. What also needs considering is the variability of the type of ground into which the stake is being hammered. Needless to say, the stakes must be deep enough and the ground dense enough to sustain the force of the eventual pull. It's also important to hammer them in vertically and not at an angle for optimum holding power.

While 1.5m stakes may be required in some places, IMO this length cannot be considered as a rule of thumb as I can think of many many places where you'd have no chance whatsoever of hammering such a long stake into the ground.

I've some experience of placing stakes, both temporary and permanent, in a variety of situations - ground anchors for 4x4 winching, SRT rigging for exploration of old mine shafts as well as belay stakes. It's always surprised me how little depth is required to provide a sound and useable anchor. In well consolidated ground I've regularly and successfully winched a 4x4 using a nest of 3 or 4 anchors, none hammered more than 0.5 metres into the ground.

Having used a variety of different types of anchor over the years - angle iron, ex-MOD steel marquee stakes, 4x4 winching stakes and scaffolding pole, I agree with Scott that for permanent belay stakes, you can't beat galvanised scaff pole. FWIW, based entirely on my own experience, I reckon the optimum length of scaff pole for belay stakes is <1m and I now cut mine to between 750 - 800mm in length. Once you've hammered in over 600mm of a pole's length in solid, dense ground, it'll take a hell of a lot of lateral force to shift it IMHO.

Incidentally, the nice new (BMC funded?) galvanised T-section belay stakes placed at the top of many cliffs in Pembroke are actually 4x4 winching stakes which are <1m in length. I believe these are made in the UK by Forgetech and are also used by many MRTs.

Hope this provides some interesting food for thought if nothing else.

Dave

In reply to mlmatt:
Forgetech = my brother. I Knew they were selling somewhere

I would suggest putting in two stakes, then equalise them.

In reply to mlmatt: If the ground you're hammering into has lots of bits of rock in it then rebar as thick as your thumb or more is best - the extra diameter of scaffold tube and softness of the end don't penetrate as well. As the main enemy to a stake is corrosion I think 20mm galvanised solid steel would be best if you can get it. Stainless will corrode anoxically where you can't see it.
We use old WW2 T-section German barbed wire stakes over here, they're excellent once you remove the plates on the shaft and grind off the spikes on the top. Some of the originals placed by the Germans are still good after 65 years.
http://fesma.free.fr/barbru1.html