UKH

Does any one have an oppinion about this? Does any one use a scheme? Do you think a scheme similar to the kayaking award scheme could work for climbing? I would especially like to hear from multi disciplined instructors.

In reply to Nathan: do you mean like the Single Pitch Award? if so their is awards like this with the BCU, coaching awards.

andy

In reply to Andy W:

No simmilar to the star / rainbow awards as a youth scheme

In reply to Nathan: Their is the star awards in kayaking which are on skill level.

In reply to Andy W:
I am well aware of the kayaking schemes i am trying to research weather a scheme simmilar to that of kayaking would work in a climbing context!

In reply to Nathan:

I don't see why it couldn't work - I assume you mean it to cover skills like putting on a harness, belaying safely, tying the knots, abseiling, etc?

Lots of people worry about such a scheme, the concern being that it'll end up being a compulsary for all climbers. That's unlikely to be the case for outdoor climbing (as it isn't for kayaking), but maybe it would become the case at indoor walls. Rather than having to sign a piece of paper saying you're an experienced climber, you'd have to produce your 1 star award to be allowed to top-rope, and your 3 star to lead a route. Which would lead to a lot of p*ssed off experienced climbers having to do a naff award and remember lots of skills they don't use on a regular basis. Can you avoid this?

In reply to Carolyn: hopefully because it would primarily be aimed at toward under 18's and to avoid clashing with ICAS scheme (www.icas.co.uk for info) it would also be compulsory as kayaking is to e outdoors and not in although this may have to be researched more due to inclusion rights and the lack of crags available.

In reply to nathan:

WTF has a PR firm got to do with climbing?

Anyway climbing isn't in need of any badge collecting, box ticking nonsense cooked up in cahoots with the bloody insurance companies. No thanks.

In reply to Horse: Unsure what you mean by a PR firm? Do you mean public relations? Because if so still do not know what you mean?

In reply to Nathan: At my local climbing wall, under 18's have to do a test to see if they can do the basics, belaying, can tie a figure of eight etc, which works really well i think, but they dont have it for adults, adults can sign under 16's in though. if their was one test then it would avoid having to sign a disclamer every time you went to a new wall.

In reply to Horse:

Yeap, I don't understand the link to the ICAS website either - are you sure that's the right link, Nathan?

In reply to Nathan:

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say - are you thinking of an outdoor climbing award, or an indoors one? And up to what sort of level? Real basics, or up to and including real trad lead climbing?

Oh, and BTW, there are plenty of very good, experienced climbers under 18. Plenty of 13 and 14 year olds who can outclimb me.......

In reply to nathan:

Well copy and paste the URL you posted into a browser and see what happens.

In reply to nathan:

I think this is what you meant to link to?!? Attention to detail, my dear

http://www.megagrip.co.uk/walls/icas1.htm

In reply to Carolyn: sorry wrong URL correct one is http://www.icasclimber.co.uk/icas.html

In reply to Andy W: That sounds like a possibility i know the hassle of signing people in all the time at climbing walls especially when sometimes the staff at the wall have less of an idea than you!

In reply to Carolyn:

...... though the link from there to the main ICAS page don't appear to work.....

In reply to Carolyn: Try this one it is a pirate site
http://www.megagrip.co.uk/walls/icas1.htm

In reply to Carolyn: with regards to wha sort of level various levels ranging from absolute beginners up to leading trad. I am also all to aware of the under 18's that climb better than me i think most of them do!!!!

In reply to nathan:

It's OK, the one you posted before that seems to work...

Do you know how long it's been running or how many walls run the scheme? I've not heard of it......

In reply to nathan:

I am tempted to say that site is the biggest load of bolloxs I have seen in a long time. However, the badge collecting mentality of it is a little worrying because who knows where it will end. Climbers should have nothing to do with such schemes.

Oh Al Downie where are you now!!

In reply to nathan: the award will try avoid following the ICAS scheme, because i want to get away from elitism and the person with the best / highest award is the person that can climb 6b and up, i admit to not climbing at that level except at the wall i enjoy a nice gentle route but my skill level is reasonably high and i think that is what needs to be assessed!

In reply to Carolyn:
I think Glouster runs a something like that

In reply to Horse:

Lets hear the man out first before we slate him!

In reply to Horse: i assume you mean the ICAS website is the biggest load of bollox. Is that due to the nature of how the award is achieved or just such an awrd in general

In reply to DEL_35: in speaking with the AMI and the MLTB they are aware of the scheme but know of only a hnadfull of walls that use it! A lot of walls however have made there own scheme!

In reply to nathan: Note i dont say that i have spoken to the BMC, this is because they have yet to reply to any emails despite sending specific people about four already.

In reply to Horse:

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure I could care less about an indoor scheme. Indeed, it appears there is one, though I'm yet to see any evidence of it being used. I'm not sure what it means (having climbed on indoor 6a being no predictor of what you'll make of another)..... but one covering basic skill, too, might be some use. After all, kids do like collecting badges.

But I can't get my head round an outdoor award. The idea of trying to assess if someone's capable of leading a VDiff, and giving them a badge to prove it is beyond me. Indeed the prospect of someone having the badge which says they can lead VDiff strikes me a rather dangerous when they then go out and fall off one by 'emselves. Still, it'd be beyond the scope of SPA, so maybe we'd end up with instructors with a proper qualification

In reply to DEL_35:

Be clear I am not slating Nathan but the scheme.

In reply to Carolyn: The scheme that i would propose would not look at grade at all, it would be the individuals ability to complete technical things like belaying, putting a harness on, placing gear and a variety of other things.

In reply to Carolyn:

Well I think the argument goes something like this:

1) Little Jo or Joe gets his indoor numpty badge.
2) Insurers get used to the idea.
3) Walls insist on the badge.
4) Jo or Joe goes outside.
5) Those responsible adults in the cotton wool world then want Jo or Joe to have the same sort of award outside.

Need I go on?

In reply to nathan:
Whats yor ideas of assessing peoples abilty to place gear, etc? I think this may be what people are trying to ask.

In reply to Horse: Well that is true the world is going that way in which that everyone must be wrapped in cotten wool but the scheme is based on encouraging the youth of today in to the sport of climbing! I am sure if we all think back to who introduced us to climbing we can remember! I know some people who have found out that i climb and say wow i wish i had the oppourtunity to do that when i was younger!!!!

In reply to DEL_35:

Agree with Horse here 100%. He's not slating Nathan, but the ICAS award scheme. It appears to promote a "badge collecting" mentality and I can't see any use for it other than as an income stream for the people running it ("right, you've paid your £10 to be certified as capable of climbing 4a, now let's have another £10 to certify you as capable of climbing 4b"). Who's it useful for? As a BMC youth coordinator for L & SE region, I'm not aware that many walls in the region promote or use this scheme.

Not sure what format the scheme Nathan's proposing is meant to take. At first glance I'd again say "where's the need?", but maybe I haven't understood what he's suggesting?

In reply to DEL_35: i am still researching the topic but to start with the assesor of anyone leading would have to be MIA as inconjuction with BMC/MLTB recomendations as i am only SPA i am not sure how they teach this although i am sure you all no when you place gear if it is right or wrong.....Who introduced you all to climbing........How did you learn to lead........I was introduced by my step dad who belonged to wessex mountaineering club, and the southampton rats climbing club..........I learnt to lead when my parents new i enjoyed it and sent me to Plas y Brenin for a week long course at the age of 15

In reply to Horse:

OK, so you introduce an indoor scheme. Little Jo gets the badge, and proudly adds it to their camp blanket alongside their BCU 2 star, ski award and cycling proficiency badge. If necessary I can cope with the idea of having to do an indoor award if it prevents me having to register at every wall.

Little Jo wants to climb outdoors. There's no award scheme, so mummy won't let her. Ho hum. She's not allowed to go paddling whitewater, skiing off piste or mountainbiking either. She probably wouldn't have been allowed to climb indoors if she hadn't been on a proper course, so I'm not sure what difference the award makes....

Actually, I'm pretty sure the BCU scheme does extend to some pretty bumpy water - but it's in no way seen as compulsary for anyone who wants to paddle it.

In reply to nathan:

I'm sorry, you can't climb that route, you're only allowed to climb upto VS. And I notice you haven't yet got your "leading" badge.

Of course if you attempt it without having the appropriate skill level, as an unqualified climber your travel/ accident / life insurance will now be void.

Compulsory testing, compulsary membership of national body, all sounds like really good fun?

In reply to nathan:

Why encourage anyone?

If someone wants to climb then they get off their arse and climb. Another symptom of the cotton wool world not having the get up and go to do something for oneself and take responsibility for ones actions.

In reply to Rob Naylor: thanks for your input Rob, i am very keen t hear from the BMC as you may have read above. i feel that the award that i am proposing will come away from that of the ICAS award. I admit when i first came accross it it was not that appealing and i agree with you that £10 is very steep one of the things that i disagree with BCU star awards so long as cost are met for badges and certificates that would be fine i am not out to make money!!! Im use to being poor!!! As carolyn has stated children like getting badges i know this from my work with the BCU, A Swimming A, and Bronze med

In reply to nathan:

Nathan,

OK, you're proposing an award that specifies that youngsters can tie in properly, put on a harness safely etc. I don't see where that encourages youngsters to take up climbing. How isit supposed to do that?

I'm not even sure that encouraging more youngsters to take up climbing is necessarily a good thing in itself.. those who are "drawn" to it tend to find it anyway. Most youngsters these days have an opportunity to try it if they want to, through taster sessions with scouts, youth groups, organisations dealing with deprived youngsters, schools and at walls. Actively marketing climbing to youngsters through some kind of hard-sell is the last thing the sport needs.

In reply to alex:
this is why i only wish to run it for the youth of today...

that is why i

Out of every 100 people who go out and learn to climb the traditional way 1 or 2 get killed and mamed in the first or second year.

I learnt to climb form a very early age and started to abseil off bridges/cliffs with an old troll harness and a roofing rope we stole of a mates dad. After two years of that I learnt that we were using the gear loop at the back to tie in with and how it never snapped i'll never know. I then bought a controversial book called 'learn to climb in a weekend' and started to get a little safer, whilst learing to climb. Climbing is now a animal that needs to be fed regualary and causes serious probelms in relationships.

I guess i was lucky and totaly appeciate the experiences i had, although indoor walls have created a lot of different types of climbers who play their own games. A friend of mine can climb 6B sport/outdoors but would become a wreak on a V.Diff

The times 'R A Changing!

In reply to DEL_35:

>Out of every 100 people who go out and learn to climb the traditional way 1 or 2 get killed and mamed in the first or second year.

Where does that statistic come from, it is not one that I have heard previously.

In reply to Horse:


To be fair though, some people need their eyes opening as to what is possible if you get off your arse and do something positive. And climbing can provide the trigger to awaken it within you. In some senses, I know it did with me and I am a much better person for it. Isn't that partly why kids are encouraged to do outdoor pursuits, to find that self-reliance and "can do" attitude?

As regards this awards crap, I'm 100% with you.

I have read it a few times now and will try to get a link to support it but you've only got to be an active climber to realise its potentaily leathal. Most of the acidents i've seen are from people who are in the honeymoon of climbing, although not all.

An interesting link - http://members.tripod.com/~camclimber/faq.html

I'll have to admit that i find the idea of an award unapealing but perhaps it's a step forward. I'm not sure exactly what is being proposed by Nathan but its certainly an area that should be invesgitaed for future reference. Perhaps its not a good idea (or a null hypothesis) but it'll be interesting to know why!

I'm a pretty open person to ideas and if they are bad i'll come to that conclusion after seeing ALL the evidence. Nathan could i have a copy of the finished product and perhaps the BMC/MLTB would be interested too.

In reply to DEL_35:

Being potentially lethal and actually lethal are two very different things.

Well i guess its potentially lethal when you get a near miss and lethal when its not.

In reply to nathan:

This is a piss-take surely?
An early Al Downie April Fool?

[I still have my bronze, silver, and gold (first ever awarded!) climbing badges somewhere.]

Hmmm . . . one of the things that always put me off both swimming and gymnastics was that you were always supposed to be working towards some sort of badge - felt far more like school than like fun.

In reply to Nathan:
Maybe you have got involved in the wrong sport . If you want badges the boy scouts are very good : union jack folding , fire starting , basket making etc .
Climbing has a very good award system called staying alive . If you do then you get to keep climbing . If you don't then you don't .
But seriously , anybody with a bit of initiative can find a course to teach him the basics , combine that with common sense and have a good chance of not dying . Silly badges are anathema to whole ethos of climbing.

In reply to Postmanpat:

And don't stop you dying.

In reply to Kipper:
I really hope it's a piss take, an award scheme seems precisely the sort of crap that I would hate to see creep into climbing. The aims of the award are particularly misguided-

1. To promote climbing and make it accessible to greater numbers of people.
2. To promote excellence in climbing performance.

Agree with horse about the first one. We don't need to make climbing more accessible, it's not a secret club, if you've got the drive and the imagination then anybody can do it. Getting into it using your own initative is far more rewarding than gaining some meaningless badge.
The 2nd one is just absolute crap. It seems like the sort of meaningless shit which I absolutely despised at school and in lots of other sports.
As has been pointed out the use of trad grades seems pretty dangerous.
Ranting George.

In reply to Nathan: have used the ICAS awards for a couple of years it is quite useful as unfortunatly every kid that leaves scool expects a certificate for everything. The only problem with it is that there is a presumption that every climbing wall has areas of all grades that can be done and that is not always the case
cheers
allan

In reply to ashaw:

Dunno where you are in the country, but here in L & SE I don't find that's true at all. Kids who've done the BRYCS competition like to get something as a memento, but those who climb in the youth groups at various local walls and schools climb because they love climbing, not to get a certificate. They get more out of other kids encouraging them on specific problems/ routes than they'd ever get out of a series of sew-on badges.

One thing I've noted from my daughters' swimming and gymnastics clubs is how *catty* they all get about who's got which badges. Long may climbing remain generally badge-free!

In reply to Rob Naylor:
I quite like the idea of grade badges. It would save all the arse sniffing that goes on when climbers meet for the first time.

In reply to Wingnut: In discussion with parents, teachers, and coaches the majority of children like to work towards these types of awards. Although i aim to pove this scientifically

In reply to Mr Pink 2:

This is why the award is not focussed on grade

In reply to Rob Naylor: Rob when i was a child less than eight years ago i lived on portland.....You may think that living there i would have had oppourtunities thrown at me to climb but is not untill now that i am, and i know i would never at that age made it to BRYCS competition standard and i know that is true of many youngsters i quit swimming because i was forced in to competition and i was only there for myself the same with climbing i have no wish to force children in to climbing

In reply to Chris H: Another good reason i know when i go kayaking with a new person the first thing i ask is what star award they posess i dont worry about the grade of river they can paddle because a grade in 4 in one part of the country is not a grade 4 in another and the same with climbing grades

In reply to nathan:
Perhaps I have missed something, but the awards seem to be entirely based on grade e.g. to gain grade one you have to:
TR diff, traverse diff and boulder 3a. The use of trad grades just seemed slightly strange. This was a minor point though.
GN.

In reply to Mr Pink 2: You are thinking of the ICAS award this is what i am trying to get away from eg assessment on skills learnt like belaying leading etc...

In reply to nathan:

Being a kayaker of some experience, I can say that that is complete bollocks. I'd much rather know what grade someone can paddle than what meaningless star award they have. Before you ask, yes I did go through the BCU coaching system for what it was worth.
Grades may have different characterisitcs in different areas, but knowing that someone has the necessary skills to paddle grade 4, wherever that may be, tells me far more about their ability than the fact that they have a 3 star award. The same would go for climbing.

In reply to Craig_M: I know lots of people who say they paddle grade four but put them in big water that actually is grade 4 or a technical drop they would be lost if i know that you can not entirely go on there star awards but it is good to look at the whole picture!

In reply to nathan:

The problem with star awards is that they only assess skills in isolation, not a persons ability to apply those skills in a practical situation.

In reply to Craig_M: are you a coach?

In reply to nathan:

Used to be.

In reply to Craig_M: Well surely the four and five stars are not isolation awards

In reply to nathan:

No, they are the only 2 which might be worth having, that and advanced proficiency. However, whichever way you look at it, a persons record of experience is far more valuable than awards.
I've paddled with people who have all sorts of awards and have been completely out of their depth in grade 4/5. I've also paddled with people without a single qualification who I learnt more from than I ever could from any award.

In reply to nathan:

If you'd been keen on climbing at a young age, you'd have *made* the opportunities. Kids over here in the south east, with no real rock to speak of ( other than our eroding sandstone outcrops) find opportunities.

And what's this about "BRYCS competition standard? The great thing about BRYCS from my viewpoint is that it's open to all, and kids of all standards enter. Everyone knows that the winner in their regional heat is going to be one of 3 or 4 "outstanding" kids, but knowing they're not going to win doesn't stop other kids from entering.

There's one lad in this region who's goal for the last couple of years had been not to be last in his age category...this year he wasn't, and he was as happy as the category winner!

I normally loathe competition climbing, but BRYCS opened my eyes to how much youngsters of all abilities get out of it.

In reply to Nathan:
http://www.icasclimber.co.uk/icas.html

Exactly the opposite reason to why I climb.

In reply to Swirly:
Isn't this getting into the rather well-worn "Is climbing a sport?" debate?

Or, indeed, the failure of some to understand why not everyone trains for climbing ;

In reply to Nathan: Why dont you try to contact a local leader in the Scouts
They have various awards for outward bound stuff including climbing.
See http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/activity/outdoor/climb/index.htm

and http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/books/badge/s_cl_1.htm

and
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/books/badge/s_cl_2.htm

All the kids in my troop are interested in earning badges

the idea is to use the badges to enthuse the kids in a sport / activity, not have the badge earning be the be all and end all of the matter

In reply to Simon Waterfield: As a principle I think people should be encouraged/motivated by the intrinsic value they find in an activity rather than the irrelevance of an award system. Otherwise, by shifting the attitudes of the participants you unavoidably change the nature of the activity. If you like it you'll do it. If you don't, why do it for a badge?

In reply to Simon Waterfield: I have been on the website this morning it has proved very usefull, and hopefully i can get some more info when i have managed to collate all my forums

In reply to Li'l Ze: becuase that is what kids want!!!

In reply to Li'l Ze & others

When I first saw this thread i thought it was a troll, but now back after a few days away its still running & seems serious although I must admit I've never heard of ICAS. For me the lack of regulations, certificates, etc in climbing has always seemed a 'good thing'.

Anyone else old enough to remember the 2 pages of cartons (by Sheridan ?) in Mountain mocking the whole idea of awards in mountaineering ? (included such gems as the award for the best ice climb in Cornwall of the year)Maybe someone could scan & post it somewhere ?

In reply to Doug: If you could that would be great

In reply to nathan:
1. How do you know that's what 'they' (not much room for individuals there) want?
2. Assuming you can identify what 'they' want is it always right to give it to them?
Smacks much more of giving them what some adults (the ones who need systems, policies and checklists rather than judgement to validate their activities) think they should want.

Well i live in South Wales and we got a winter guide book. The N Face of 'Pen-Y-Fan' being a good grade 2 to solo. I'm sure if it got alittle colder you could do it
Start noticing the seeping cliffs and waterfalls more closely.

In reply to Li'l Ze: Well there has been scientific experiments to prove that kids enjoy getting rewards but i am in the process of investigating it further

In reply to nathan:

Must have been really tricky designing an experiment to prove something so specific and improbable.

In reply to nathan: this is not the best quote because i can not get to the books but something off the web will have to do....."Positive communication is a tool to reinforce good behavior and eliminate bad behavior; it builds self-esteem and inspires confidence in children." Why Positive Reinforcement Works!
Brenda L. Gargus
http://webtools.familyeducation.com/article/0,1120,4-160,00.html

In reply to nathan: I did not create such experiment but have seen results check out kids on down the pub and you will see that most people with children will agree that they enjoy getting rewards!!! Ask a child how they felt today when they got a star from school, or a new gymnastics / swimming award

In reply to nathan:
There's different sorts of rewards, though, isn't there? There's that warm self-congratulatory feeling when your second reaches the belay and goes "Phew, I'm glad you led that, I couldn't have done it" and there's the more formal badge-and-certificate sort of reward.

In reply to Wingnut: This is true and i am by no means trying to discourage that however children do like things they can see why elce would teachers give certificates / stickers rather than just saying well done kids like to show off what they have got look at the scouts if you went there was allways one child with there arm filled with badges!!! (Not that i wish to link my proposed award to the scouts!) Also gym and swimming there was allways someone who had all there badges sewn to there bags!

In reply to nathan:

Without wishing to be rude, I think that your posts might benefit from some punctuation and perhaps a reveiw before you hit the send button. At present the posts are poorly constructed and written, this does make them hard to read and understand.

Or didn't you get that particular badge?

In reply to nathan:

Exactly what is the purpose of your proposed award? It sounds like you're trying to devise something to be used as a sports development tool.
If this is the case you should be asking whether climbing needs to be 'developed' as a sport before you worry about how to do it.

In reply to Horse: no sorry i didnt! Despite going to university! However i do have a problem with this!

In reply to nathan:

Will there(sic) be spelling and punctuation assessments?

In reply to Horse: no sorry i didnt! Despite going to university! However i do have a problem with this! my appologies i do try my hardest!!!

In reply to Li'l Ze: i think we should get away from slating my spelling, puctuation, and inability to construct sentences i did not think we were discussing that! I thought that this was a climbing forum. Once again i do appologise .

In reply to Nathan Ball:


Well I won't put the boot in then.

Suggestion, use the preveiw button and read it before posting might help you a bit.

In reply to Craig_M: Not really i have no wish to develop climbing, only the people who partake at an early age, i can see where people are coming from. That they do not want more people brought in to the sport. I agree with this in some ways to restrict erosion and over crowding. But as an instructor and having a love for the sport i want other people to be given the chance to try it.

In reply to Horse: thanks horse often get a little carried away and just click submit! my girlfriend moans like hell when i submit assignments without reading them first. She now reads all my work to check it for me.

Does anyone following this topic have any involvment with kids? or work in the outdoor industry? I think it would be useful to know regarding the above comments?

Is the award centred towards kids? What age groups?

What exactly is being assessed to get a pass? and How?

Has anyone got any links regarding evidence to contribute to this topic?

Is it cold today or is it just me?

In reply to nathan:
>>Also gym and swimming there was always someone who had all their badges sewn to their bags!

Yes, quite. For some kids, that is an incentive - but, for some, it isn't. It certainly wasn't for me: being expected to take fun seriously has always been a major turn-off. Some people are naturally very competitive, and some aren't. Some people are into competitive sports, and some aren't. And, even among the competitive bods, there's the odd few who are *so* competitive that they won't take part - because they might not be the best.

Some climbers view climbing as a competitive sport - but many don't. It does have rewards, but what those rewards are depends on what sort of climbing you're doing and why. For some styles of climbing, it's "I beat x". But for some it's much, much harder to quantify.
What *would* be interesting to see would be a study into how many climbers do a competitive sport seriously, and what styles of climbing they do.

In reply to DEL_35: del you are sat in a nice warm room. Yes the award is aimed at kids or under 18's. what is being assessed is hard skills and not climbing ability. Still working out how this is to be assessed, but through observation i think

In reply to Wingnut: an intresting idea for a new thread! I take on board what you are saying and can see that not everyone will aprove of this idea. Which after all is what i aimed to achieve by setting up this forum is to see what the climbing community think of such an idea.

That they do not want more people brought in to the sport.

Could quibble over the 'sport' designation again. But not seeking de facto exclusion of newcomers.
As ways of being introduced to the activity proliferate and lean more towards the commercial and/or institutional my concern is that the people introducing them place little emphasis on ethics, environmental sensitivity and the importance of the 'inner' experience relative to grade-driven ego tripping (and frequent accompanying dishonesty).

Pretty heavy stuff. Of course as a result of this I have no fun at all.

In reply to Nathan Ball:
Hmmm. With a checklist, no doubt?

In reply to Li'l Ze:
"That they do not want more people brought in to the sport."
Oops. A quote from a couple of posts up, not a response to the one immediately preceeding.

In reply to Li'l Ze: Ethics of climbing is something i have been looking at to include within such an award scheme including the looking after climbing venues, eachother, and the rules of the game. Despite not everyone agreeing that climbing is a sport, it still has underlying rules.

In reply to Li'l Ze: possibly but not neccesairly i am open to sugestions.

In reply to Nathan Ball:

From my experience with kids who climb, I'm pretty confident that over about the age of 10, very few of them'll give a stuff about awards or badges.

I still don't see how having a "hard skills" award is going to encourage more youngsters into climbing. And I don't see how you're going to grade it to allow for a spectrum of development from what, say 5 or 6 to your suggested 18. You can either put on a harness or you can't. You can either tie on or you can't. How do you assess knotting ability.

Do you insist that for, say, a 2 star award a kid has to be able to tie a figure 8, and will a preference for a doubled/ rethreaded bowline disqualify her from this level?

Why would anyone want a badge stating that they're competent at setting multipitch anchors when they're actually betting their *life* that they are every time they do it? Sorry, does not compute!

In reply to Nathan Ball:

I don't think anyone is saying that they don't want more people brought into the sport, at least I'm not. The point is that what you are proposing is a traditional sports development type approach with young people. What I, and I think others, are doing is questioning the relevance of this appraoch in relation to climbing, which is not a sport in the traditional sense of the word.

In reply to Rob Naylor: Good points Rob but the same could be said for kayaking. I can low brace but when it comes to using it i will be placing my life on the line, if i dont get it right!

In reply to Craig_M: No i agree that climbing is not an invasion sport but an individual sport. So not a traditional sport. Do you have any views on a different approach or no approach at all?

In reply to Nathan Ball:

I can see what you're trying to do, but my personal opinion is that there is not a need for it. Because there is not a need, or perhaps more relevantly a desire, for sports development in climbing, then the natural wastage of people trying it then subsequently not taking it up is not a problem.

In reply to Craig_M:
I thinks its important to remember that all the views on here are from people who ARE climbers and that a non-climber seeking a start in the sport need consideration too.

In reply to Li'l Ze: Very good point.
Ever tried to explain to someone why they should be enjoying the view from the top of a hill? Or run a profit-making course in "View appreciation and internal satisfaction"? Or assess someone as to how effectively they're enjoying said view?

In reply to DEL_35:

Fair point, but we managed to get past the initial stage and so can anyone else. Do you think a sports development approach would have any great positive benefits to climbing as a whole?

To be honest i dont know - but this is what we are tring to determine i guess.

In reply to Wingnut:
run a profit-making course in "View appreciation and internal satisfaction"?

A thousand curses. Some ne'er-do-well has leaked my business plan!

In reply to Li'l Ze: lol foiled again!!

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Rob, I agree with most of your points. But lets not forget there are some problems with not having an award scheme for climbing. A few months back, I seem to remember a scenario along these sort of lines:
Young 'Jo's' taken up climbing, and she's finding it lots of fun. She's also being encouraged (by parents, school, college) to do DofE, no doubt because it'll be good for her and her university application. Now, unsuprisingly, when it comes to choosing an activity to do, she quite fancies improving her climbing, rather than taking up something else. But the lack of an award system means she can't be set a target like 'gain your 2* award'. Instead, she gets told she has to 'lead a VS'. At the time, there was much shock that she could be set such an aim.

Now, of course, a badly thought out award scheme wouldn't improve the situation at all. A well thought out one, concentrating on the skills of placing gear rather than worrying about grade might. I'm still not sure how practical such a scheme is, and there's certainly (almost infinte) room to improve on the ICAS scheme. Maybe it's DofE's fault for allowing pretty much any climber set the targets for the youngsters. But the scheme does require some find of way of 'showing progress'. Is there a sensible way of doing this?

In reply to Carolyn: This is what im getting at. Did this actually happen carolyn? Do you have any further details? If an award of this type well thought out and away from anything like the ICAS was introduced im sure that it would be well thought out i no my dissi has to be 20,000 words so pretty in depth and i set up this and other forums to ensure that i do look at all aspects! and getting a feeling for what people want out of an award if indeed they did want one.

Thank you carolyn very usefull post

In reply to Nathan Ball:

Yes, and if you search the forums for something like 'first VS' then you should find the thread relating to it.

However, I'm not clear if this was a realistic aim, set by a good instructor who knew her abilities well, or if it was an arbitary target. It could be either. Although it seemed a strange target, it's hard to know in isolation if it was a sensible one.

Here's a link to the DofE website you might find useful:
http://www.theaward.org/contents.asp?mainID=5&main_name=Library&sub...

In reply to Carolyn:
Any instances of anyone set such a DoE target falling and hurting themselves?
If you have a formal outdoor award system and this happens, who gets sued (cos someone will)? Awarding body? Instructor who prepared candidate for assessment 'inadequately'?
Risks like this might be why it hasn't crept beyond indoors yet.

In reply to Carolyn:
It does seem a bit odd, but, as you say, it's a bit hard to tell without the context exactly what was going on. Interestingly, achieving it would involve both technical competence (placing gear effectively) *and* athletic ability (being able to get up it) - surely this wouldn't be completely within the scope of a particular competence award?

In reply to Nathan Ball: I've just come across this, and to my credit, even read the whole thing; and having weighed up the pros and cons, I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Uncle Horse - it's a crock of shit.

You keep trying to explain the relevance of this using a parallel with paddling, but in order to do this you would need to assess specific climbing techniques. Since it's common to use a huge variety of these on climbs at virtually any level of difficulty, it's a completely meaningless measure. You say you're not going to assess the level of difficulty that a person can climb at, that's fine, so what are you going to assess to generate mutliple levels of awards? A 1 star award for tie-ing in safely and a 2 star award for er, um, tie-ing in _more_ safely, a 3 star award for tie-ing in _very_ safely whilst drinking a can of pop...

Attempting to justify this rubbish by linking it to the need for a measured progression in an unrelated area is complete nonsense. If the participant in a DofE scheme [for example] wanted to show progess in climbing as part of their award, then get an SPA. It seems to fit the bill nicely, as it's focussed on saftey and competence, not necessarily on what grade of route one climbs at.

Hopefully this pile'o'pish will never see the light of day. We already have many, many levels of competence awards that actually assess ones competence, climbing doesn't need some jerkoff loner with a string of badges down their arm to prove to the world how good they are. It's akin to putting blue lights on the front of your ford escrote (sic) and driving down the street slowly to impress your mates.

f.

In reply to Carolyn:

I missed the DofE "VS as a target" thread, but I've been asked by DofE people several times, either in my (former) capacity of club chairman or BMC AYC to "sign off" on their climbing progress.

The local schools and DofE supervisors here seem much more realistic about what climbing's about, and what I've signed off on has pretty much amounted to the fact that "X" has been on "n" away trips and has progressed from top-roping sandstone to leading multi-pitch over the course of the year, or whatever.

No grade requirements or anything of the sort...just a signature that the individual has, IMO, developed significantly as a climber over the period in question.

In reply to Li'l Ze:

That's why any instructor with half a brain cell will have liability insurance. It doesn't need to be a fall whilst trying to reach a target such as leading VS. It could simply be someone's who's been on a 'learn to lead' course with an instructor, takes a fall on their next lead and rips all their gear. But yes, I'm not convinced of the merits of an award system covering lead climbing. It could too easily lead to complacency.

But again, I don't see it as that different to kayaking. Unless I'm mistaken, for 2* and above, part of the requirement is now that you made ?10? logged journeys before your assessment. What's the difference if you injured yourself doing these?

In reply to Nathan:

not read all the threads but get the gist. have to say (my god!!!) i agree with horse. pretty insidious thin end of great big wedge. this scheme has been around for a while but (thankfully) appears not to have been taken up.

what interests me is no one appears to have asked (no doubt ill be corrected if im wrong) who is running the scheme and who pockets the money? ive a pretty good idea (but no way am i saying on here - find out yourself) and the guys involved are business types. whose interest are they serving?

In reply to stu: stu i think you are looking at the icas still

In reply to Nathan Ball: no, I think that the only people that will benefit from this are the ones being paid to issue the badges, regardless of which company name they operate under.

f.

In reply to flapper: fair points and everyone is entitled to their opnion all be constructive or not! "it's a crock of shit" is not to constructive but fair do's. As i have said time and time again this is purely research and i do not have the power to create such an award. However i feel that there is a strand for progression within the awards such as there is in climbing i did not wake up one morning and go and lead a multi ptch route i started by top roping, learning to tie in, how to put on a harness purpose of equipment, what things do "experimenting" i then went on to second routes getting gear stuck and then finally learning about protection and how to place that. There is progression there i am sure you all progressed in a simmilar way i would like to meet any one that woke up after never climbing and led any route. If this has progrssion then so can an award.

In reply to flapper: Well is that not true of all outdoor centres, climbing walls etc. I opperate as a freelance instructor when im not at uni i do, do it for the love of it but i wouldnt be able to feed myself on love only by earning money

In reply to Nathan Ball:
Why don't you take a look at this website that Sutty (I think) found the other day . I don't suppose this bloke got many badges when he was a kid .

.http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mad-dogs/index.html
Well before my time but maybe it will give you an idea of what climbing used to be about. It is the embers of this spirit which your badges will finally exstinguish

I am sure you are well intentioned but what are proposing will be very very bad for the sport .

In reply to Nathan Ball: I've just read a couple of your other posts on the Back Passage thread, you clearly have a problem with other climbers who are egotists/overbearing. Fair enough, I think that I climb at a reasonable level for a weekend punter but have also had similar experiences at many indoor walls where I'm not a local. Infact it's got steadily worse as I've got better at climbing. It pisses me off too as I want to climb when I go to a wall, not engage in some bullshit arse sniffing contest with the local heros.

The point is: The way I see it, if an award scheme such as this, that encourages kids to collects points and badges, will CREATE this enviroment that you dislike so much and ensure that it's reinforced at an early age. I wouldn't want you to starve, but I think that exploiting child pshycology to earn a few quid is rather too cynical.

f.

In reply to flapper: It is not intentional to exploit children at all the reward aspect is merely an avenue that i am investigating. I dont want the award scheme for more money i have re-read and can see that it does insinuate that as i said tho i do it for the love of it and i want to share my experiances with others and show other people what climbing is about and can do for them.

In reply to Nathan Ball:

http://www.megagrip.co.uk/walls/icas1.htm was the link i checked out. you claim you havent the power/authority to start such a scheme which isnt quite true. anyone can (these guys did) its a case of convincing enough people to make yours the "standard".

In reply to stu: very true but hardly any one has adopted this scheme and i know of walls that run schemes of there own!

In reply to Nathan Ball: Cool, then carry on introducing kids to climbing, just don't give them badges for it.

f.

In reply to Nathan Ball:

you seem to have come across quite a bit of stick with this one, which is probably a good indicator for the direction your diss. may take. im a full time freelancer and many like me would probably benefit from such a scheme, most colleagues i talk to are very anti such a scheme (cos were not all climbing-whores!!! shock horror ). hope this helps.

In reply to stu: stu where do you freelance?

In reply to flapper:

Yes, you have to watch out. If you start off by giving them badges, you'll develop the sort of mentality that'll have them ticking off all the routes in Classic Rock!

In reply to Carolyn: Do climbers not go out bagging routes any more i know the club i used to a member of did. I admit that i will climb some routes over and over again becuse i enjoy them but i always keep a record of what route i have done and with who the same as i do when i kayak i keep a record of the rivers i paddle.

In reply to Nathan Ball:

Urr, that was my point......

In reply to Carolyn: but people already do that with out being given badges

In reply to Nathan Ball:

.....which was also my point!

I'll spell it out in full, then. I'm pretty certain at least a few of the folks who are anti-badges happily go out with a tick list of routes. I'd be amused to see them justify the difference!

Nathan, if you're going to get any more sensible responses, I think you're going to have to give a bit more detail of your proposed scheme. It's rather hard discussing the merits of something so vague!

In reply to Carolyn: i know that is a problem and i do apologise for that as you can probaly tell it is a work in progress. I aim to have some rough outlines to post on here tomorrow or Friday. In the mean time all of the information that is coming forward has been very helpfull, my appologies for not seeing what you were talking about on the last post i got a little confused.

In reply to Nathan: if we have any sense and by some of the logical points being put out there I must agree that we all have some sort of sense we MUST recognise the following as rather obvious;
We are all different
we all live in different places.
Some people like a party bag at the end to take home if that is what the individual want then we should be able to offer it to them.
If people would like to be introduced to climbing as part of a course then great the more the merrier. Surely we cannot claim total rights to all rock and it is unfair to slag off people who climb at grades below. Otherwise we will end up like most paddlers who end up posing with the latest boat each year with the latest trick. Who cares get a life and let everyone else get on with theirs wether beginners or heros
allan

In reply to ashaw: well said allan that is all too true my friends get a new boat every year and talk about all these new moves! that i dont get! when i go climbing it is different no one is out to prove they are better than me although i have to admit most are

In reply to Nathan: I'm SPA trained and will be assessed this year. Personally I think the award is kinda irrelivant like the driving test, and maybe ongoing assessment would be more appropriate? There also needs to be the provision of lead coaching without having to take the ML route. Nothing wrong with that, but people will want to coach leading, but never go more than 100 yards from the road.

Spider

In reply to ashaw:

But is that the case? Or is it rather that an award is created largely to create employment and generate cash. To do this they have to go out and sell something, in this case climbing. It's this years thing to do. I am firmly of the view that marketing climbing in this manner is not a good thing for climbing in the long term. We will rue the day we step down that path.

BTW Stu, it is alright to agree with me sometimes and stranger things have happened. I even think Mick Ryan speaks sense sometimes and find myself in complete agreement with him!!

In reply to Horse: Speaking as the creator of this thread, there was never £ signs in my eyes when i considered this idea last september and proposed it as my dissi. For those needed a bit more info i include my dissi proposal more info will follow as to ideas for the award.
"The outline of the study is to focus on one part of the population. I have chosen to focus on people ageing form 7 – 18. It will focus on the need for a climbing award scheme for this age range. I will be drawing on knowledge from climbing instructors around the UK via questionnaires, and with the help and assistance of the British Mountaineering Council (BMC), and the Mountain Leader Training Board (MLTB). Currently no official award exists although some centres e.g. Gloucester Climbing Wall, have adopted their own. The study using the findings from the questionnaire would then go on to develop a climbing award scheme for (a) my personal use, and (b) the use of the BMC as a uniformed national award. The award will follow a similar pattern as the Rainbow award used in kayaking. Sources of information will be the BMC, MLTB, Mountain Instructors (MIC), and centres that have already adopted a scheme." Thanks guys for all of your feedback and ideas so far please keep it coming very appreciated

In reply to nathan ball:

Sorry I had in mind the ICAS rubbish.

Well I would question the "need" for any such award scheme, especially outside of a climbing wall.

Rather ambitious to suggest that the BMC would use such a scheme isn't it?

And I trust that the your dissertation will also include some appropriately worded commentary on the concerns of the wider climbing community on the implications of such an award scheme.

PS Your posts seem to be benefiting from the proof reading

In reply to Nathan Ball:

anywhere (i lied ... i am a whore) mainly peak/wales/lakes

In reply to nathan ball:

OK, a few constructive (I hope!) points...

First, why only up to 18? DofE (and many other 'youth' schemes) go up to 25 or 26. If you want an award to be widely accepted by these organisations, then you're going to need to cover their whole age range. And if these type of organisations can't use it, you'll drastically reduce your market.

Second, you're going to have to acknowledge climbers worries about an award scheme, rather than dismiss them with rather superficial answers. After all, the danger is that a badly thought out scheme would negatively affect most climbers (ie the danger of it becoming a compulsary scheme), whilst even a really good scheme would only provide minor benefits to a small number of young climbers (& possibly their instructors). It's not that surprising most folk dislike the idea!

Personally, I dislike/have concerns about a scheme extending to leading. The 'badge gaining' mentality doesn't sit comfortably with learning to (trad) lead in my mind. I suppose it is a logical progression, but I'd rather people were doing it because they felt ready, rather than because they'd done level 3, and for level 4 they have to lead a climb.

In reply to Nathan:
I cannot find anywhere in this thread any explanation for why you are proposing this idea except a vague suggestion that ten year olds like being awarded badges .
Thousands of people of every age group learn to climb safely every year without a regimented system of badges .
You are prepared to undermine the whole ethos of the sport for no clear benefit . My own suspicion is that if you really examined your own motives you might discover that your proposal had more to do with justifying and formalising the role of the instructor than with benefiting the sport of climbing or even the children who participate .

In reply to Nathan:

Nathan,

Please tell us concisely in bullet-point form WHY you are investigating this scheme i.e. why writing the dissertation will be of more use to society than you sitting at home watching telly (which is what I am doing).

I am very interested but struggling to understand.

Thanks,
Ray

In reply to Postmanpat: I totally agree, if it ain't broke don't fix it!

As someone who is heavily envolved with a youth organisation I've come up against this 'must have bits of paper' mentality quite a lot and it quite often is just paper pushers who don't understand the sport trying to make it as safe as sitting in an office. Although I support people having to be qualified (I'm currently ML and SPA trained) to take groups of kids out to ensure that you don't have muppits putting their lives at risk, I think its a bad idea to try and make the kids do assessments as well.

This would risk turning it from an enjoyable activity into a task which has to be done.

In reply to Dave:
>>This would risk turning it from an enjoyable activity into a task which has to be done.

Yes, quite. It's one of the things that put me off both gymnastics and swimming at a fairly early age.
There seems sometimes to be an attitude that "if my numbers are going up, I must be having fun". Fun is not a scientifically measureable phenomenon.
I currently do some voluntary coaching for my old school in a sport (not climbing) with no nationally recognised award scheme, no school team for the age group in question, and in which individual performance is known to vary considerably from day to day and mood to mood. Some of the kids are fairly competitive, some aren't. Some are anxious to improve, some have reached a certain level of competence but now are happy to just chill. They're doing this for *fun* - so long as they're having fun safely, why push something that formalises something half the class already do and annoys the other half?
This pretty much mirrors the state of my adult club - some tech freaks up to here in kit upgrades, the extra skills needed to fit said upgrades safely, and new techniques, and some happy to turn up, enjoy themselves, turn in average performances and go for a pint afterwards. Likewise, climbing clubs will have a selection of different attitudes among members: on the performance side, some who are constantly aspiring to the next grade up or to tick the whole of Classic Rock and some who just want to, for example, climb some of the classic routes within their current performance level because they are usually classics for a reason and so will provide an enjoyable experience; and, on the competence side, the odd few members who don't lead, quite a lot who don't do any winter climbing, and some who'll go out in anything.

In reply to Nathan: Nathan,
Some suggestions for the dissertation:
- Try looking at whether climbers do competitive sports seriously, and whether they did so in the age groups you're investigating. Did they get into climbing as another sport, or as an athletic pastime that they *didn't* see as mainstream sport?
- For the performance end of things, try looking at grades and their usefulness
- For the competence end of things, try looking for some debates on top-roping
(Yes, appreciate that this will be a lot of work, but this is what dissertations are for!)

In reply to Nathan:

Something you might want to take into account is that even though a 'badge system' might possible encourage the climbing development in some children, it can also have the opposite effect in other children.

To make a non-climbing related example. The reason I'm quite a poor swimmer is the 'badge system' when I was learning to swim as a child. I had/have a 'sub conscious fear' of diving into water, and therefore would not (still will not) do so. Of course to get certain swimming badges you had to do diving, and as a consequence I never got practice other areas of swimming (rescue, long distance, etc.) that was involved in these badges or at a higher level.

Just a thought.....

In reply to Wingnut:

-- I had a similar experience at school. I was unsporty, and totally uninterested, because all the sports at school were competitive and I was crap at them, and the humiliation of coming last made me feel shit. As an adult i discovered climbing and it was a revelation: a physical activity which engaged just about all aspects of physicality (strength, flexibility, body awareness etc etc) but was rich enough to not be reduced to mere 'performance'. The best thing that climbing can give kids is the lesson that some things are not reducible to badges and grades and scoreboards-- (and it's usually those things that are most worthwhile in life IMO.) ps. wish i'd discovered climbing when i was a kid.

In reply to Nikkus:

hear hear!

In reply to Horse: cheers mate!! These posts will be in the appendix, all names will be removed to protect your identities, and the findings will be in the main dissi!

In reply to Carolyn: ok fair pouints thank you. In answer to the question why not up to 25 / 26....Mainly because i was aksed by tutor to narrow my ideas and focus on one scheme allow this is a very valid point that i had not considered. I will try to answer the other points when i have a few more mins.

In reply to Nathan Ball:

Of course, the downside of extending it over 18 is that many students unions, paranoid about safety, could insist all climbing club members did the qualifications....... not a certainty (don't know of any uni canoe clubs who've had similar restrictions put on them), but a worry.

In reply to Wingnut: thanks wingnut! Lots of work ahead and so little time 3 months left! But i am working on it every day now! Some good stuff to investigate thanks!!!

In reply to Nikkus: I do no how you feel as i too was crap at sport and always came last. The thing that made me feel better was however that i new that i was a better climber, sailer, and kayaker than those that beat me in traditional sports! I admit i do have a competitive nature, but i know i will never be the best at anything sporting, too many adventures to focus on just one activity!!

In reply to Carolyn: Are uni canoe club insists that we have a qualified coach to the level applicable for kayaking! Although they do recognise a disclaimer to allow us to paddle higher grades if we wish! As the club secretary however we will not allow people to kayak unless they have shown competency first I do not know if this is a standards throughout other institutions. However the climbing club do not insist on even having an SPA there, although it was a requirement last year they seem to have let it fall by the way side as last year it was run by two SPA’s, it is now run by three people who have been climbing six months.

In reply to Nathan Ball:

Nathan, here's something else to think about for your dissertation.

It's an extract from this site - about careers, but I'll explain why I'm posting it in a mo...
http://www.outdoor-learning.org/info/careers.htm

"Despite the wide range of options for work in this field there are competences that are common to everyone. These can be divided into three types:

Technical skills such as safety management, administrations skills and environmental skills.

Process skills such as instructing and group leadership.

Meta skills such as sound judgment, creative thinking, ethical behaviour and clear vision.

The technical skills are the easiest to train in and the quickest to acquire whilst the meta skills grow over a lifetime. With this in mind many employers recruit for the meta and process skills knowing that the appropriate technical skills can be easily developed once you start work. They are therefore especially important to describe in your curriculum vitae."

OK, the shortcoming of most NGB awards is that they only tend to assess technical skills. And this is why many people distruct them. Folk come out, full of confidence, with their piece of paper that says they can lead a climb, but without the experience to be able to judge which ones they're capable of leading reasonably safely. OK, so that can happen without a piece of paper, but if given a piece of paper, folk will rely on it, and maybe stop thinking for themselves.

It certainly happens at the instructor level..... I spent most of a summer being sent out with kayak & canoe groups with instructions along the lines of 'I know they've got their instructor ticket and you haven't, but FFS go and provide some common sense!' I know it's a slightly different arguement for personal proficiency awards, but I think there are some parallels.

In reply to Carolyn: I agree with everything you have said, i have come across some instructors with a complete lack of common sense.

In reply to Nathan Ball:

Well, I think that's one of the hurdles you need to overcome with any award scheme. Quite a challenge!

In reply to Nathan:

Complete madness, obviously. I disagree with the chap who said we should hear this idea out before slagging it. Climbing would be best served by an Act of Parliament making instructing for gain illegal, but failing that the next best thing is for all right-thinking people to be extremely rude to the Nathans of this world at the mere mention of any such notion.

In reply to nathan ball:

I think you will need to be careful how you interpret some of your data Nathan. It is very clear to me from reading this thread that your proposal is highly controversial. I would line myself up with those who would oppose such a scheme, but that's not really my point. If you are serious in your aspiration to be a researcher you need to think about the data you are generating from this thread and what a challenge it represents. I haven't tried to count them but it looks like maybe 3 or 4 posters opposed to the idea for every one in favour. This suggests that there would be some difficulty in achieving wide acceptance for such a scheme. 'The need for' is a claim not a fact.

If i were your supervisor I would be advising you to reframe the proposal (I assume this is for an Hons degree or a Masters?) as an exploration of the relevance and applicability of the kind of award scheme used for - eg paddling - to climbing. That way you are allowing yourself to consider the possibility of admitting that the case for such a scheme is, as Horse so generously puts it 'questionable'.

Oh and just one more thing. If you started this thread with the intention of gathering data for your project you ought really to have said so. Research has ethics too.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

There's just never going to be any Kudos from other climbers for getting these awards. If you've done a route then we can engage in a round of congratulatory back slapping. If you've done an award you can stick it up your arse AFAIC.

I would like to see the BMC issue a standardised 'wall card' that you can show you're competent with at all indoor walls, as if you've been about a bit then your wallet just becomes full of the buggers. The walls wouldn't be able to charge for membership then, and there'd be hell to pay if it might became compulsory. But compared to me having to buy a bigger wallet that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

In reply to Ken & Nathan:

Ken, I think that's a very sensible suggestion. I haven't noticed anyone (apart maybe from Nathan) who has no reservations about such a scheme, and there are certainly many who are very strongly opposed to the idea. As you say, it makes more sense to start by considering if such an award scheme is applicable to climbing; starting with a scheme in mind and defending it the death is less than ideal!

In reply to Ken:

Absolutely! I might not be worried that my spoutings hang around in the public domain on RT for a while before slipping off to well-deserved oblivion, but I'm a bit narked to find out *after* the fact that they'll be enshrined forever in the appendix to someone's dissertation. Even with my name removed, I'm identifiable since I've made several references to helping with young climbers in London & SE for the BMC.

You should have said up front if you were going to include these threads in your work, Nathan.

In reply to Paz:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/services/summit/backissues/SUMMIT_23.pdf and read the debate bit competency testing at walls. The BMC are not in favour of competency testing.

I don't follow your logic of how having such a card would mean the walls can't charge for membership. And if the walls didn't charge for membership then the prices for entry will go up - most walls aren't swimming in money, especially with the current insurance premium increase so they will need to recoup their money somehow.

Bit worrying that you are prepared to sacrifice compulsory competence testing just so that you don't have to carry around a few wall membership cards in your wallet.

Graeme Alderson
BMC Walls

In reply to graeme alderson:

>I don't follow your logic of how having such a card would mean the walls can't charge for membership.

It wouldn't. You'd still have to sign something when you first come so that we'd be as sure as we can be you can't sue us, or at any rate not unless we mess up in a way we think we ought to be liable for. That something changes all the time as we think of ways of making it more watertight. It's only right that the admin costs of that exercise be loaded on to first time users.

In reply to everyone after looking at the feedback coming in over last couple of hours i will ensure that this information does not go any further and will not be included or referenced to in the dissi. However seems you have all been so helpfull so far........I have recently created a questionnaire that covers the same topic if you feel you could contribute in any way could you please pass on your details to me so that i can email you a copy. Once again thanks for all your help, and my appologies for suggesting placing thread in appendix

In reply to Carolyn and ken:

"starting with a scheme in mind and defending it the death is less than ideal!"

I have no intention of defending it to the death. So dont worry!

In reply to graeme alderson:

As I said before, you do not have to be a member or show competence before going in a swimming pool, why so for the visiting climber?
Imagine, you visit Sheffield to do a job and you would like to climb but you have to pay a membership and entry fee for a facility you may not be able to use again that year. I used to be all over the country and rarely used the same pub or hotel twice and if I had wanted to use walls then it would have been very expensive.

How about a BMC competency card, issued by all participating walls that would save the introductory at a new wall. Once checked you could show it and walk in.

In reply to sutty:
The wall still have to to pay for the time it takes for a member of staff to check the competence cards, though.
And they still need some way of keeping track of how many users they've got, on average (need this sort of stuff for forward planning), dates of birth for juniors (so they know when they stop being juniors and to charge them at the higher rate), anyone they've got on an annual membership as opposed to paying by the session (if the wall does this, they need to know when to ask for another year's money), any details their insurers need them to record, and, of course, anyone who's a using the wall but *isn't* considered competent yet (because they need to measure the progess said bod is making towards being competent).
So they'll still need to keep track of their users, so they'll still need to do some admin when someone uses a new wall for the first time. This admin costs money.

*But* whether this cost should be in the form of a one-off joining fee (you're probably right that it does discourage occasional users), or absorbed into the session fees, isn't quite the same issue as checking user competence.

In reply to sutty:


I think the BMC would most likely be opposed to this. See www.thebmc.co.uk/indoor/walls/bmcinv.htm
which suggests that the BMC line is pretty consistent with the majority view expressed in this thread.

In reply to Ken: Did any of you read my post. THE BMC ARE NOT IN FAVOUR OF COMPETENCY TESTING.

Graeme Alderson
BMC Walls Officer

In reply to graeme alderson:

Now admittedly I should have used my sarcastic voice so you didn't get the wrong idea, but thanks for the official line

I don't mean testing, just referring to that the disclaimer thing you sign at walls is blatantly mostly identical up to an insert wall name here clause, so why not choose the best one, sign it once, or even sign it again when occasionally when someone thinks of another way to cover their back. When you turn up at a new wall with a group it takes at least half an hour to sign everyone in, out of what is probably only two hours if you're lucky (especially if the wall shuts as early as Mile End). Surely just having a "I'll sign any damn disclaimer you put in front of me" card would smooth the process.

Or I'll settle for a big BMC wall cards holder. Or will it be acceptable to the walls if I sign over the Power of Attorney to the BMC so I can't sue unless the BMC want to for me?