UKH

Ive got a talk to do on the birth of Rock climbing and im desperately looking for a picture of someone doing a handstand on top of napes needle. Ive seen one somewhere and im sure one of you lot will know where..

help v much appreciated
John

In reply to JR:

Please

In reply to JR:

Dunno about a handstand, but the most historically evocative one I've seen is the (Abraham?) photo on the front cover of Alan Hankinson's "The First Tigers". I'll assume you're using that as a source, since it's got almost everything anyone could want to know about the Wasdale scene of the 1880s.

Might interest you to know that the first VDiff I could find (looking for VDiff Dave a while back)in the area was Haskett Smith's West Jordan Route on Pillar, done in 1882, a full 4 years before the 1886 ascent of Napes Needle...which was certainly rock climbing, rather than scrambling.

Of course, ascents of Pillar Rock by easier routes (The Old West and others) go back to 1826. George Seatree records 6 ascents of Pillar Rock between 1825 ans 1850, 22 ascents between 1850 and 1866 and 50 ascents in 1875 alone

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Cheers for that, Ill probably use that pic then instead.

In reply to JR:
We only have Haskett Smiths word that he climbed it!!! It was several grades harder than anything he had climbed before and considerably more serious in that it also had to be downclimbed. H-S also failed on easier routes after his 'ascent' of the Needle ref. Cumbrian Rock / Century on the Crags. He certainly didn't solo anything else remotely near the grade - despite the protection of the day or lack of it. Other new routes that he climbed were usually in a supporting role.
H-S did nothing else with his life - he never worked (scraped a third class degree and later became a non practising barrister))or did anything else notable. He never made any other ascent of the Needle apart from the 50th anniversary ascent when as an old man he seconded the route. No-one has ever reported seeing the handkerchief that was supposedly tied to the top. Check it out there is nothing to tie anything to.
I think H-S 'ascent' is very dubious. Had a modern day activist made a similar claim I doubt very much that he would be believed.We are talking here of an on-sight solo ascent and descent of E9!
What do you think?

In reply to Geordie:

Possibly but graded at HVD it cant be several grades harder Diff is only two grades below, but i see your point. Bearing in mind it wouldnt have been half as polished. Your the first person ive heard say that though...

In reply to JR: Thats because no-one else dare! It's some kind of heresy to suggest this.
It may not have been polished but would have been covered in grass (lower crack) and lichen.
It would be very easy for H-S to suggest that he had climbed the Needle and then not be able to back down. Reading between the lines of the rest of his life I think that this could have been possible.
As for grading in the most recent FRCC guide to Gable the grade is Hard Severe.
I wonder what Phil rigby the writer of the forthcoming guide will have to say or the hierarchy in the FRCC?

In reply to Geordie:

Well i have accidentally opened a can of worms here. Doesnt Phil Rogbye come on here from time to time?

In reply to Geordie:

I think you're just stirring, mate. H-S put up the West Jordan (VDiff) in 1882 and Needle Ridge (VDiff) in 1884. The original route up the Needle was given as VDiff for years, gradually being upgraded as it got highly polished. H-S later put up several Severes (eg North Climb with Slingsby)which were certainly fully witnessed by others.

H-S's own account of his ascent (page 78 of Hankinson's "Early Tigers") is so detailed about the holds used on the upper section ( "...at the foot of this side there appeared a protruberence...feel the edge and prove it to be not smooth and rounded as it might have been, but a flat and satisfactory grip..." etc)that it beggars belief that he was never actually *there*. The protruberence he mentions and the flatness of the edge he used to top out aren't apparent until you actually get up there! The handkerchief was held in place under a stone.

If he lied about being there, how come he was able to give a *correct* hold-by-hold description of how he did it?

OK, you don't seem to like the man, and the way your posts come across indicate that you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about "class". Fine...I don't know much about the guy other than what I've read, and I've no idea whether I'd've liked him or not. So what if he *did* "only* get a 3rd class degree? You don't need to be an intellecutal giant to climb well.

Nah...you'll have to come up with something a bit better than the fact that he had private means and wasn't an intellectual giant if you want to discredit him properly!

In reply to JR:

I think the can's empty! Geordie says that no-one else "dare" suggest that H-S didn't do the climb...I'm interested in why he thinks it's "daring" to say this.

Sixty years ago he might have brought down the wrath of the F&R on himself, and been ostracised by the old buffers in the AC, but these days it's the *iconoclasts* who are the new orthodoxy...it seems cool to knock the achievements of previous generations, and almost everyone does it without fear of being ostracised by the climbing community.

He's not even bringing down *my* puny "wrath" on himself...all I'm saying is that his "evidence" for H-S *not* climbing the Needle seems a lot weaker than the evidence that he did do it!

In reply to Rob Naylor: Only one taker eh !
H-S took several attempts at West Jordan before he climbed it and then with a strong team behind him. Although technically Diff. Eagle Ridge is nowhere near as intimidating as the Needle. On his ascents of routes with Slingsby et. al. as I have already mentioned he was not the lead climber on these ascents. In Hankinsons book the comment is that he tied the handkerchief to a 'protuberance'. If he had tied it to a rock he could have fairly easily thrown it onto the top from the shoulder nb. no-one ever reported having seen the handkerchief after the ascent. From the shoulder it is very easy to see and therefore describe the holds and having climbed Eagle Ridge it would be easy to describe the summit.
As to why he may have been truthful or otherwise about the ascent this has nothing to do with class. The fact that he was not particularly successful in any other area of his life or indeed made any effort to be, given the advantages that he had, I think only serves to underline the perception of 'idle rich'
Go for it.

In reply to Geordie:

Lets take this point by point:

1) Where does your info re West Jordan come from? Nothing I have suggests several attempts at it...although there were other climbs on Pillar that he took several attempts over. His "strong team" appears to have consisted of his younger brother Edmund.

2) My post mentioned nothing about Eagle Ridge (Diff). I referred to his ascent of Needle Ridge (V Diff).

You say in your earlier post: " He certainly didn't solo anything else remotely near the grade".

Needle Ridge and West Jordan at V Diff are the same grade as the Needle, both climbed prior to the Needle, and both soloed. H-S didn't start to use a rope until the late 1880s. His comment after his early ascents with his brother and Robinson was:

"In those days we were heretical in our attitude to use of the rope. Not having one ourselves we were inclined to scoff at those who had; and in the gall of bitterness we classed ropes with spikes and ladders, as a means by which bad climbers were enabled to go where none but the best climbers had any business to be".

3) I'm interested in your assertion that H-S wasn't the lead climber in ascents with Slingsby et al. He appears first in the list on several routes, which is normally an indicator of a leader. He almost certainly led Haskett Gully at Severe, because the record notes that "Oppenheimer led the cave pitch"...unlikely to be of particular note if Oppenheimer'd led the rest of it, too! If you can point me at the documentation of his failure to lead these climbs, I'd appreciate it.

One has to ask why, if H-S was such a mediocre, non-leading climber of little talent, contemporaries such as Slingsby, Collie, Jones and Oppenheimer rated him so highly? It wasn't "done" to do people down in print then (though Crowley would have, I'm sure, if there was anything to "do down"...he assassinated Jones's character quite thoroughly)
but had H-S turned out not to be climbing at a standard which made his early exploits believable, these guys would have just ceased to associate with him, which they didn't. These people didn't "suffer fools gladly" and it would have quickly been apparent to them if his earlier claims had been exaggerated.

4) I can't find a reference in Hankinson's book to H-S having tied his handkerchief to a protruberance. It just says that he left it there. I can't find right now where I read it originally, but I clearly recall reading somewhere else that he wedged it under one of the stones which he threw up to test the flatness of the top.

5) To have described the holds above *from* the shoulder and to have thrown his handkerchief up there *from* the shoulder means that even you accept that he probably made it to the shoulder. Interesting. In the early days, before the debris and veg was cleared out of the cracks, it was the lower prt of the climb that was considered to be the crux. Hankinson again..."Many capable climbers were afterwards turned back when trying to make the second ascent not by the sensational upper part but by this lower and (under present conditions) very simple piece".

6) What's this thing about whether his class indicated his truthfulness? My reply to your original post didn't in any way imply that he was likely to be more truthful because of his class. The fact that he wasn't particularly succesful in other parts of his life means nothing in climbing terms. I expect that if you think for a while you could come up with several modern-day climbers who're not successful at anything outside climbing.

Yes, he may have been what you class as "idle rich" (though in later life he lived quite modestly on a relatively low private income) but many of the pioneers in those days had private means...they were the ones who had the leisure to climb. My grandfather, for instance, after 6 12 hour shifts a week in a mill, would have been unlikely to have had the time or energy to spend is Sundays in yet *more* physical activity.

Sounds to me as if your start point here is that you don't like "toffs" or "idle rich", that you've taken against H-S for not making the most of his advantages in life, and that you've then worked backwards from there to try and dredge up some very weak indicators that H-S exaggerated his achievements.

You've got a long way to go before you'll convince me that there's any merit in your argument...and I'm tod that I'm known for being reasonably open-minded and willing to modify my position when the evidence warrants it.

In reply to Rob Naylor:
Blimey that's way too many words for this time in the morning!

In reply to Grant:

Sorreee!

In reply to Rob Naylor: Rob thanks for the reply. I'm off to the wall soon so this will be fairly short.
Sorry I meant Needle Ridge not Eagle!
Some of the things that made me question the ascent:
* There seems to be some question over when the ascent was made.ref. FRCC guide - 27 June or 30 June 1886. I would consider that such a notable climb would be indelibly etched on the mind of anyone making it especially those who habitually kept a diary. ( Although as evidence suggests H-S was quite a lazy person and may not have kept a diary)
* During his time at Oxford he broke the college long jump record - in practice ie. no-one saw him do it - they had to take his word!
* On the day of the ascent H-S had been up at 5am and had already completed a long walk with his friends and he was complaining of a headache. Hardly the best physical condition to be attempting such a momentous route. His friend Robinson had already been sufficiently impressed with the Needle to infer that even a Swiss guide would not attemp it.
I have much more 'evidence' that questions the validity of the ascent. Class is certainly not an issue but I apologise for the term 'idle rich'. Perhaps 'wealthy person not gainfully employed' may be more politically correct.