UKH

Could one of you people who knows about the law tell me what trespass actually entails?

At some stage I picked up the idea that for your venturing onto other people's property to count as trespass you have to have damaged something (even if only something very minor, like squashed grass) or else have refused to leave, when asked to do so by teh landowner.

Presumably a great big KEEP OUT sign would count as the landowner telling you to leave....

But in other cases, where there's no sign, if you stray off a right of way/access area, am I right in thinking that you're breaking no law until you get spotted and asked to go, and that you are breaking the law then if and only if you refuse to exit their land by the shortest route?

In reply to gingerkate:
I'm no lawyer but...

trespass as a legal notion, as far as I know does not depend on whether you damaged anything or not.

that is more to do with what the farmer can ask for as compensation of you tresspassing. Which remember is only a citzens offence so you get no criminal record and the police will not get involved normally.

I think legally if you leave the land when asked and haven't damaged anything then there is nothing the land owner can do about your actions.

In reply to gingerkate:

Is this to do with more covert protest operations or something =).

In reply to Fiend:
No, I'm too goody goody to trespass anyway. It was just the Vixen Tor thread got me wondering, and I'd like to know for sure what teh law actually was...

Wot covert protest operations?

In reply to gingerkate:

I'm sure many more qualified will be along in a moment, but...

Trespass is a tort, that is a civil offence where the remedy is for the injured party to bring an action for damages. If you don't damage anything, then there's no point anyone going to the expense of suing you. That's not the same as you not being guilty of the tort.

There are now other offences (aggravated trespass?) that are criminal offences, however, which complicates things if you are part of a group.

In reply to gingerkate:

Have a look at: http://www.naturenet.net/law/common.html

Trespassers in the UK cannot normally be *prosecuted* despite what signs say, They *can* be sued if they damage any property.

In reply to Woker: I thought trespassing was a criminal offence now? Wasnt it part of the criminal justice bill in the 90s, to try and stop us ravers?

Big Steve (at work)

In reply to Anonymous:
no, that was more referring to repetative beats and squatting.

In reply to gingerkate:

This bit of that page brings back memories for me:

"It is not normally possible to be a trespasser whilst legitimately on a right of way. However, if the user is not using the right of way as a route to get from one place to another, but using it for some other reason, such as to interfere with the landowner, they can be considered to be a trespasser"

I remember studying at great length in Land Law the case of a bookie who several decades ago was using a public footpath alongside some "rides" around Newbury (or it may have been Newmarket) to spot the form of various owners' horses. He was held to be trespassing, even though on a right of way, as he was using the right of way for a purpose other than getting from A to B.

In reply to Rob Naylor:
how strange......

In reply to gingerkate:
I used to mountain bike all over the Duke of Bedford's estate and woodlands near Woburn, we occasionaly got shouted at by groundsmen and gameskeepers but we reasoned that they'd never catch us and we were right.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Dear Rob

Does this apply in Scotland?

Norrie

In reply to Anonymous: The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act of 1994 did contain provisions defining and criminalising Aggravated Trespass.

Other than this it is tortious and as such a civil rememdy, though it can (with a little creative policing) lead to the commission of the evasion of liability by deception (i.e. giving a false name and address for service of the claim form) and or conspiracy to pervert the course of justice 9more than one person giving false details to the land owner or their agent).

The trespassers eg ravers / crusties etc can then be arrested and removed from the land.

In reply to gingerkate:

Sypeland, great place with not so great gamekeepers.
Best thing is to leave when asked, but you do not have to. They can not physicaly make you leave only sue you and as you'd of left before it got to court there aint much point.

Anyway next May the boot will be on the other foot!

In reply to sloper:

Dear sloper

Does this apply in Scotland?

Norrie

In reply to sloper:
wasn't this part of the bill more aimed at protesters than ravers ?

Certainly never heard them try and do ravers for aggrivated trespass, as there are other more relevant parts of the Bill to be used for that.

In reply to FH:
they are allowed to use reasonable force to make you leave.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

That site covers English law only, and specifically mentions that in some cases Scottish law differs significantly. I didn't study Scottish law during my "second round" of tertiary education, and I don't know in any detail how Scottish law differs from English in this area.

In reply to Woker:

That would be very hard to prove.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Dear Rob

Thanks, it does help not to make the assumption that everything in the UK applies to Scotland.

Norrie

In reply to sloper:
False name and address? So if I stray onto someone else's land and they spot me and come to tell me off and ask me to shift, are they entitled to ask my name and address?

In reply to gingerkate:

In England, not unless you've actually damaged something and they intend to sue. They can ask you to leave and take reasonable steps to ensure that you do.

In reply to Rob Naylor:
But they could falsely accuse me of damage... I mean, they might think I'd damaged something when I hadn't, or just accuse me of squashing grass... so then they could ask for my name and address? And I'd have to give it, or else be guilty of something?

In reply to gingerkate:

If they were there could be issues under data protection if they wrote it down.

Personaly Bollocks to them is my attitude, as is theirs to us. And if want proof ring up swinton estate and ask to climber anywhere other than Slipstones, and e-mail them and leave messages.........they never reply!

In reply to gingerkate: thats how i understood his post

i shall answer

Jon Smith
29 acacia avenue
Grimsby

then what are they going to do about it? lol!

In reply to FH: Data protection issues, oh yes of course not to mention the human rights act, the right not to incriminate ones self and the right to silence.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:


Dont forget the weights and measures act.

In reply to gingerkate: Saw a good one yesterday at Huddersfield Golf Club. 'Trespassers will be asked to leave'. I thought these yorkies were supposed to be tough.

In reply to FH:
I was going to say "is being fat one of the criteria to define tresspassing" but realised it wasn't funny.

In reply to Richard Bradley:
Scarey stuff!

In reply to gingerkate: Yep. We golfers are civilised. Not like those climbing types.