UKH

Legs really feel like they're made of lead after a pitiful two day's on the piste. I *think" I've been leaning back too much and over-braking. Set boots slightly tighter this morning and consciously tried leaning forward more and I felt more in control (apart from really busy and also slightly slushy sections). If anyone has any bite-sized tips of good technique, I could try them out tomorrow! Ta / Grazie 

In reply to broken spectre:

Bend ze knees!

More helpfully, try to consciously feel the pressure of your boots against your shins, especially when you are tired.  Also, be aware of where your hands are - preferably out in front of you somewhere not flapping around randomly stabbing your poles too far back.

Edit: 'front' obviously

In reply to broken spectre:

You should be able to see both your hands in your lower peripheral vision.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Thanks both, I think my hands are usually near my hips. Sounds like this could be wrong, now I'm aware I'll consciously try and position them higher and more forward!

In reply to broken spectre:

When you are leaning forward, try to be aware of where you are leaning forward from.

For the longest time, I had my weight forward enough to be in control, but doing so in a way that made it more tiring. I was squatting slightly. This has the effect of pushing your shins into the fronts of your boots, but it sticks your bum out backwards. To counterbalance this and keep my weight forwards, I was leaning my upper body forward from the hips.

This season, I've been trying to think about standing a bit more upright and leaning forward from the ankle. Part of how I've been prompting myself to do this is to think about projecting into turns from the hip. It was difficult to get the feel for it, but now that I have, I'm finding it significantly less tiring!

Now, I just need to stop regressing as soon as I get off the piste!

In reply to broken spectre:

It goes against the grain for many climbers, but a 1:1 lesson from a good instructor, early in the week to allow lots of purposeful practice during the rest of the week will pay dividends. Which resort are you in?

In reply to broken spectre:

One exercise that instructors use is to hold your hands out in front of you with your ski sticks horizontally between them, like handlebars, and keep the arms pointed down the piste. Ski like that i.e., without using the sticks. Stand fairly upright, but using up and down movement by bending the knees. Feel your weight through the balls of the feet. Keep your weight on the down hill ski. Try to relax as much as possible. Braking and resisting gravity is what tires one out.

Definitely take a lesson or two.

In reply to kevin stephens:

My skiing improved enormously after one morning's instruction. They watched me ski, pointed out what I was doing wrong, and gave me excellent exercises to help me feel how to do it properly, and how to use carving skis to turn.

Due to covid, I haven't been for a while. If I get away this year, I would consider a refresher/improvement lesson.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

This is basically what I do! If ever I feel that I'm not skiing well / getting out of control / finding it difficult, I do these things.

Consciously planting the poles (or making as though I'm going to) helps with all of this - keeps the weight forward etc.

In reply to Becky E:

Deliberate (and somewhat exaggerated) pole planting can also overcome hesitancy in difficult conditions; it encourages you to commit to the turn, as well as naturally helping to initiate the turn.

Using carving skis to initiate turns is very simple; it just requires moving your weight (CoG) across the skis, which encourages the ski to roll, which causes it to flex to keep the carved edge in contact, which means the edge become curved, and turns naturally. The more you roll, the tighter the turn.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Bingo... albeit I'm too scared myself to go get one... ~30 years of bad habits are hard to get rid off.

Also trying something new, is a good way to pick up on obvious technique flaws... Be it trying SL or GS, or park skiing... or moguls... I've tried them all (except for slalom, too hard on my knees). The bad thing is that you might end up picking up new bad habits as well.

For the OP, one way is to try to feel a constant pressure on the shin (and flex the ankles). Also keep your hand up and in front (like holding a steering wheel)... all these help in getting or keeping the weight forwards (or centered.... but where it is supposed to be). Bending the knee does not help, unless you also bend the ankles (and flex the boots)... If you simply bend the knees, it will look you're squatting on a potty... looks awful, makes skiing hard (back seat driving is hard in a car... and also true when it comes to skiing), and lastly places your ACL in such a position that injury is much more likely (that position is such, that even low release settings of the binding won't help... in fact, the weight of a boot and lower limb is enough static weight to break the ACL in that position).

In short, keeping the weight where it is supposed to be (center or front), helps with control and also keeps you safe and un-injured. One other tip to achieve proper posture is to try to bend the knee so that it would touch the tip of the ski (thus also forcing you to flex the ankle and get centered or forward). Can be easily practiced on a mellow slope. Do this the same time on both feet, while you gradually angle/edge both skis. If done properly, you should leave two clean carved edge tracks on the slope and no sign of skidding anywhere. 

In reply to broken spectre:

Be self-aware not self-conscious. We all pick up our own bad habits. I recognise my friends (and them me) from miles away despite all of us being decent skiers. I am technically the worst of the bunch but usually balance it by sheer enthusiasm and optimism. 
 

Now as already pointed out:

1. hands in peripheral vision

2. Shoulders to the fall line

3. moving up and down with the knees (bend ze knee) helps with loading/unloading the edges 

4. shins pressing on the boots

5. have fun- style after laughter.

In reply to broken spectre:

• Get a lesson
• 'Stomp it Tutorials' YouTube
• 'All Mountain Skier' book. Old but excellent, usually £6 second hand.

My thoughts.

In reply to Dave Garnett et al:

It's funny I find this piece of advice actually really unhelpful. Mainly because I did it for years and totally missed the point. What they neglect to tell you is that to Bend ze knees is that you also need to flex your ankles. I think most people regard their boots as immobile, rigid lumps when in fact they are (marginally) bendable and what generates power to your edge. If all you do is bend the knees without flexing your ankles, you end up out the back with no control again. If you flex the ankles aswell as the knees, your centre of mass should be moving in a straight line up and down, rather than in an arc rearwards, with the effect that you don't need to pull your weight forward again. 

How do you do that? I find that if you feel yourself falling out the back, pull your feet actively upwards into the top of your boot and bring your arms forward. Your arms change where your CofM is anyway, and the feet lift actively tips you forward into your boot. This allows you to put pressure into the boot.

The other thing is to really concentrate on progressively squeezing. Again people tend to try to resist movements rather than going with them and settling into your boots. Progressing pressure increase is what prevents your edge from breaking away which is an indicator that not enough weight is on your outside foot. Practice pretending you have an orange held between your thigh and your hip bone. Every turn as you come through the fall line start to progressively squeeze the orange - but the time you reach the point at which your skis are horizontal the orange should be pulp and you need to start again with the other side. Remember, smooth, subtle, progressive movements.

In reply to beardy mike:

 

I agree completely, I think ‘bend ze knees’ is the reason so many Brits ski like they are sat on the toilet.  
 

The point about feeling the pressure on your shins is this only happens when you flex your ankles and maybe try to lift your toes (which think amounts to exactly what you’re saying).

In reply to broken spectre:

Get on a blue run. Ski more slowly than usual. Face your upper body down the slope and keep it there. Keep your feet together and turn by rolling your knees so you engage the inner edge of the outer ski somewhat in front of your boot and use that to turn. Avoid using your poles or jumping around or swinging your arse - it should all be ultra smooth and controlled. You should look like a local - but at a tenth of the speed.

When you can do that all the way down, try something a bit steeper, etc, but with exactly the same technique.

For something different, again face down the slope, and allow your upper body to rise and fall somewhat as you try to make turns as quickly as possible. Again, ultra-smooth, no jumping around, try your hardest to use the skis to turn, not your body weight.

6 weeks to go :/ must make more time for skiing.

Edited for (hopefully more) clarity

In reply to beardy mike:

Yeah, 'bend ze knees' is crap advice. What they are often trying to tell you to do is weight and unweight the skis, making it easier to turn them. This is done by 'bending ze knees', but it has to be a dynamic, bobbing action.

That's why I think it is important for an instructor to be able to explain what you are trying to do, rather than spit out trite stock phrases that really don't explain the desired technique.

Yeah; one if the review comments for the 'All Mountain Skier' book talks about keeping a regular swinging rhythm with your arms, which, as you say, naturally transfers CoG across the skis, helping initiate the turn in a nice, fluid manner. 

In reply to broken spectre:

Check this video out. Its easier thank you think, but if your postural basics are out, then you'll  always be over-working the legs..

youtube.com/watch?v=sQ81_D3rQXQ&

John C

In reply to kevin stephens:

+1, it's the only way once you've got a few ingrained bad habits, they need identifying individually and group lessons aren't effective. 

In reply to broken spectre:

There is some terrible stuff on youtube, but these are decent.

youtube.com/watch?v=bAsGPnEYzLE&   Ski school, find the film to suit your level. But I'd drop down a grade or two, with good technique you should be able ski with relatively zero energy use, just shifting your weight, posture etc.. using your edges. If the slopes are not steep you can focus on your feet, edges, legs, lean, arms etc... even where you face, as they all translate downwards to the skis. 

I had one to one lessons, even two x 1 hour lessons a few days apart will revolutionise your skiing. As the instructor said to me after watching me skid turn down a red, "you're not going skiing, you're on a braking holiday!"

In reply to broken spectre:

The problem is, without an instructor (or someone filming you) it's very difficult to understand what you're actually doing. You probably feel like you're doing the things you've been told about, but in fact you aren't.

I used to go on group lessons with the UCPA. 

One week, by the Friday afternoon I was the only one still skiing and in a few hours 1 to 1 I came on a bomb. He had gestures for all the drills we'd been learning through the week, so we just skied non stop, while he used the gestures to prompt me every time a part of my technique fell down, which really helped me understand how often I was making these mistakes, and what to concentrate on the most in specific circumstances.

There is no substitute for external observation unfortunately. Although perhaps a 360° action cam and pressure sensors in the boots can give you decent feedback these days.

In reply to broken spectre:

I have not read all the replies so apologies for undoubtedly repeating everyone else's advice.

- Get a lesson! As much as the internet is an amazing learning tool, an hour's 1to1 will give you an understanding of what you need to sort (we ALL have technique issues we need to sort) and hopefully the tools/drills to allow you to work on those issues. Skiing costs a fortunate so get a lesson (expensive but a moderate fraction of an already very expensive holiday!) and get a lot more out of your holiday.

- If you are trying to improve, do it on pistes where you are 100% comfy. Learning to carve on a red will NOT happen etc. Drills should be done where you are not worried about going too fast, the piste suddenly getting steep etc (unless you are working on specific steep slope drills!)

- Weight. The best advice I got for this (as someone prone to getting quite backseat) was to ski down shouting out loud where my weight was on my foot. I had to shout TOE, BALL or HEEL constantly for the whole run. As you can imagine, I shouted BALL a bit, HEEL a lot and most of it was interspersed with profanity. The main effect was that I was thinking about where I was applying pressure to the ski, which actually meant, when I managed to spend the majority of time on the balls of my feet, a lot of my other issues were "solved".

- Position. The best description I got of the skiing position is it that it is the "sports" position, think a goalkeeper about to save a penalty or tennis player about to receive a serve, feet shoulder width apart, knees bent, weight on the balls of the feet, arms out in front.

- Getting forward. When I realise I'm in the backseat, my arms are often down. The best way I have found to get forward again is to "throw" by arms forward.

- Turn "type". Don't get caught in the idea that there is one perfect ski turn. There is an obsession with carving at the moment (it does feel amazing, especially when you release the pressure to change edges and the skis pop across under your body) but having a quiver of different techniques will pay dividends as you encounter different piste pitches, snow conditions, visibility etc. 

- Don't get ski technique advice from UK climbers on the internet.......

I ski well and have done hundreds of weeks over the years BUT if I had taken a few lessons , rather than relying on natural fitness, mountain sense etc, I would be an expert.

Get some lessons and avoid getting bad habits which get ingrained. Then get refreshers every now and then.

In reply to broken spectre:

Setting your boots tighter won't help if you're leaning back too much, because you won't be pushing forward so much to engage your shins. I've always been advised to loosen my boots (and undo the powerstrap completely for specific drills).

In reply to kathrync:

Sounds like when I did ski school with a french ski instructor (they take no prisoners) - he used to do impressions of us skiing including what he called the  'toilet sitter'  technique with your knees bent and bum back !

In reply to tcashmore:

The answer to the toilet sitting style is to roll your pelvis forward. Looks very rude when you demonstrate it. Basically clench the cheeks of your bum together and push your bits out. You can't do this and stick your bum out at the same time.  

In reply to OwenM:

A good tip to get your weight forward is when approaching a steepening or other intimidation is give yourself a big YE - HAA, either in your head or out loud, weight on balls of your feet (as if on the accelerator) and shins pressed against the boot shin pads. If your heels lift significantly when doing this then your boots probably don’t fit properly

In reply to broken spectre: There’s a couple of references in this thread to having your shoulders pointing down the fall line. I’m sorry but that’s not always the best way. Your shoulders should point to the apex of your next turn. If you are skiing shorts in a narrow corridor that approximates to pointing down the fall line. If however you are skiing a wider corridor then pointing your shoulders down the fall line leads to over counter rotation and blocks your movement patterns. Try to imagine the apex of your next turn and let your upper body (shoulders and hips) point there.

In reply to broken spectre: There’s a couple of references in this thread to having your shoulders pointing down the fall line. I’m sorry but that’s not always the best way. Your shoulders should point to the apex of your next turn. If you are skiing shorts in a narrow corridor that approximates to pointing down the fall line. If however you are skiing a wider corridor then pointing your shoulders down the fall line leads to over counter rotation and blocks your movement patterns. Try to imagine the apex of your next turn and let your upper body (shoulders and hips) point there.

In reply to broken spectre:

Loads of brilliant ideas!!

I'm still very much a fish out of water but confidence has improved ten fold. I've been beasted by the old man (who's 77!) over the last 3 days in a kind of ski boot camp. No pain , no gain. Fitness and style improving by the day. Much fantastic advise above!!

In reply to David Bennett:

I was simply reporting an exercise that ski instructors made me do, first in France and later in Canada. So it may not always be the "best" way. I don't question what instructors tell me to do. I found it a useful exercise (particularly not using the sticks).

In reply to David Bennett:

Correct but likely next level.

In reply to French Erick:

indeed...

when a person is trying to learn to drive a car, you don't start teaching them how to do a scandi-flick to get past a hairpin turn faster... that comes much, much later.

so getting the basics in order is the first thing. and basics (for groomer carvin) is keeping your upper body quiet, squared to the fall-line and hands in front. Once that posture (plus naturally the problem of keeping the weight where it is supposed to be) are sorted out, they can look into more advanced things, like shoulders pointed to the apex of the next turn (so in essence, excessive counter rotation) that helps in making quick turns (handy in say tight trees, moguls etc.).

In reply to broken spectre:

Shoulders over knees over toes.

Pressing shin into boot and hands in front as above all helps, but it also needs a small hinge forward at the hips and abs, "a little punch in the gut" as some call it.  Otherwise your upper body can still drift back if your core isn't engaged in keeping it forwards.

You should feel your weight acting through the arch of your foot. If all the pressure is at youre toes you're too forward, if its on your heels you're too backseat.

In reply to Thread:

Massive cheers to all!! We had the trip of our lives!

Here's a short montage of what went down, what I did edit together today. Please excuse the blatantly intermediate level of my ability of both skiing and video-craft; although it didn't stop us enjoying ourselves on both counts!  youtube.com/watch?v=2TE6Ncnkqn0&

Highlight - Completing the Sella Ronda in an admittedly pedestrian 5 hours

Lowlight - A bout of the ol' sickness and diarrhoea (not featured in the vid 😬)

Music on the vid is Max Cooper and also Fleetwood Mac

Grazie!

In reply to French Erick:

I think you might be surprised. This is a topic that is often discussed when I am teaching at intermediate / early intermediate level, particularly if there are skiers there with a theorist learning type. 

In reply to HeMa:

I think we might be talking about different things, which would be down to me being in a rush when I made my first post and not being clear enough. 
I’m going to expand on my answer to the OP here, you probably already know this and I don’t want to come across in any way condescending but for anyone who wants to know……
It’s all about a concept known as rotary separation. Rotary separation is the angle between where your upper body is facing and where your skis are pointing. You apply the most rotary separation when you are skiing short turns in a narrow corridor, meaning that your upper body is facing down the fall line and your skis are very much more across the slope at the start and end of the turn. As you make wider and wider turns using more width of the slope you use less and less rotary separation until, at the limit, the turn shape is so wide that you are effectively going in a straight line and no rotary separation is used. Your upper body simply follows the skis.
Beginners, early intermediates, and many intermediates favour long turns because it gives them more time to execute the movement patterns necessary to make a turn (and take the speed down too if they are nervous). Conversely, they find short turns tough. As a result, they tend to use long turns and spend more time going across the slope in a turn shape that requires effectively no rotary separation, their upper body should be following the direction of the skis (I’ve simplified this to the case of early career skiers). Asking someone to point their upper body down the fall line in this case is extremely poor advice (this is the main thrust of my input to this thread since it leads to a biomechanically unsound posture, over weighting the inside ski, under weighting and pushing the back of the outside ski - effectively some of the same reasons why we want a “quiet” upper body in skiing). 
This brings me to the rule of them that states that your upper body should point to the apex of the next turn. This approximates to: if you are skiing shorts then face your upper body down the fall line, if you are skiing longs then let your upper body follow your skis and if you are skiing something in between then you need to point your body slightly more down the hill than where your skis are pointing at the start of the turn. This mid-point approximation still works with early careers skiers since they do not generate much lateral separation.
So, nothing complicated or next level here, just some guidance on where to point your upper body depending on the kind of turns your are executing. I use this advice frequently when I’m teaching at intermediate / early intermediate level. My students get it and normally able to perform appropriately. Of course, it needs refining if I’m working with more advanced groups.

Hopefully that clears things up. I assume you were talking about the extra tension you can generate through high levels of separation in short turns that enables much faster turns when you release the tension. If that is what you thought I meant, then I totally agree it’s next level.
 

In reply to kevin stephens:

Just returned from Val di Fassa and couldn’t agree more. I haven’t skied in 15 years and even then I’d only skied a few days. Two 1 hour 1:1s on the first two days with instructors meant I was skiing confidently for the rest of the week.  Def now have the bug 😊

In reply to David Bennett:

We are indeed talking more or less the same thing.

And indeed as you pointed out, the amount of counter-rotation during a turn depends on great many variables (in my example shoulders square to the fall-line).

And indeed in tight trees or moguls (especially the competition kind... fun fun, on modern wide, center mounted twintips btw.), proper counter-rotation is vital for good ski control and fast reaction & snappy response. It is also true, that for wide arching turns, as much counter rotation is not needed... As you also mention.

But no counter rotation (or even leaning into the current turn) is bad technique... always. Heck, watch any ski-race and unless it's speed skiing (or downill), you will always see varying degrees of counter rotation on them, be it SL or GS competition.

And this no-counter rotation is especially a given trait of intermediate skiers (n00bs are a different thing, as they will never carve anything). Which by the account, the OP is (intermediate skiers, that is)... albeit I didn't have time to check the OPs video to confirm. And in order to practice good technique (which he was asking), is to get the good technique dialed and exaggerate it... which is also why I did advice on getting lessons (as technique advice online is hard, especially without video feedback... and picking the right advice can be hard (signal to background noise-ratio).

So I listed common intermediate technique flaws, and ways to fix 'em. One prime one being the rotation towards the turn direction... other being in the backseat (or sittin' in the sh!tter as someone aptly also pointed out). For the former exaggerated counter rotation is the key (and with time, guidance and experience, you can start to adjust the amount of counter rotation to suit all the variables, like snow quality, speed, turn radius, obstacles etc.). And for the latter keeping hands forward, driving the knee towards the ski tip (so flexing both the ankle and knee), and feeling the pressure on the shins (just to name the key ones I've found useful, other good advice available in this thread... and naturally feedback from the ski-instructor). 

In reply to broken spectre:

Had  a brief look, and it seems you were indeed trying to keep your hand forward (good job)... this was based on the shadow btw. But for feedback, I also saw you dropping the uphill hand, and thus the shoulder (so "lean into the turn")... while the feeling of this is often nice (you can often see other keep their hands up on their sides as "wings"), it is still a technique issue... you should never drop our shoulders and lean past having your shoulders perpendicular to the skies (see above). In fact, as also written just above, a varying degree of counter rotation (so tying to keep you chest always pointed out downhill, not where your skis are pointing out... or as I wrote shoulders square and level to the fall-line) is best to learn early and properly. And the with experience learn to adjust the amount to suit the need...

n.b. only had a brief look at the start, and also as stated, it was based on your shadow... which might mean that the assessment is not exactly true/correct. Perhaps have your friend film you to see what is really happening (from uphill side, and also from the side). For self-learning and visualization, these are really good tricks... not as good as a proper instructor, but better than nothing. And indeed youtube do have some good technique videos available. Stomp It Tutorials from Jens  is indeed one good resource (mentioned earlier here).

And glad you had a good time (barring the stomach flu)... I'm a bit jealous... as I'm currently only able to ski the ~50m icy and hardback molehills... good thing they also offer good jumps, rails and now also moguls, to keep me entertained. 

In reply to HeMa:

Thanks for the response. It’s not my intention to get into a debate here, I simply wanted to get the message across that upper body facing down the hill at all times was not always correct and I built arguments and advice that were appropriate to the level requested and that people could visualise. Of course, things get more refined as standards improve. I agree with nearly all of the rest of your comments but want to clarify I did not propose leaning into the turn for an intermediate. (Which by the way is how advanced and expert skiers initiate the turn and get the tips to bite in the system I come from where it is known as topple. They then add angulation in the work phase YMMV). 

In reply to David Bennett:

Then they are not advanced/experts, if they need to use upper body to initiate the turns. Skis can easily be edged simply in the by just your legs/lower body.  Which is sort of my, point that I've been again making... bad technique is bad technique, no matter of your skill level... but the longer you "live" with bad technique, the harder it is to get rid of.

Not too many years ago, I had the privilege to get a sneak peak of a training sessions from some of the worlds best freestyle skiers (including multiple big titles, from olympic golds to world champions... oddly enough, they did not hit the park, pipe or moguls, but spent the morning fine tuning turn initiations, short turns and long turns... plus running some gates.  And yeah, even if it looks like they might not know how to "ski" properly, that far from the truth... but also, that they keep practicing it.

In reply to HeMa:

We must be talking about different things or at least have different experiences so I'll stop here. If you are interested look up toppling in skiing and see what some of the worlds best instructors have to say (and every trainer I've worked with)

In reply to David Bennett:

I remember Tommy Moe being being asked immediately after he had won and Olympic downhill gold (in 1994?), what he was thinking as he made his winning run - and all he said was "I was telling myself to keep my shoulders facing down the slope and the weight on the downhill ski"!

In reply to John Stainforth:

Hello John
I had hoped to be out of this thread but since you replied to me a second time, I owe you the curtesy of a reply as my last contribution.
You are comparing a world class racer with an intermediate skier, unfortunately all things are not equal. I’m focusing my input at intermediate level (as per OP) on longer turns because like everyone else I agree that short turns require the body to face down the fall line.
In a long turn you travel across the slope for longer and are executing a kind of turn that requires less separation, therefore you should not direct your upper body down hill. 
If you do direct your upper body down hill you generate counter rotation at the end of the turn (which has some benefits) but over rotation at the initiation. Over rotation is bad for early career skiers since it straightens and over weights the inside ski, under weights the outside ski and the outside ski loses grip. Typically, intermediate skiers push the back of their ski out and form a wedge at this stage. It’s quite similar to the effects of leading a turn with your shoulders. More advanced skiers (and there are clearly some here) overcome this problem by executing an early edge change and getting their centre of mass inside the next turn but many intermediates have not yet developed this skill.
With intermediate skiers there can be a lot going on that could be worked on and as someone who regularly teaches at that level, I know it is necessary to prioritise. Firstly, they should work on posture (well covered above), which leads to good balance (lateral and for / aft) and then focus on forming a strong platform under the outside ski. A strong outside ski platform is a fundamental and only once a degree of skill has been built in this area should more advanced concepts be worked on, particularly if, like separation, they have the potential to disrupt the platform.
I hope that helps.
 

In reply to broken spectre:

Coaching/instruction is the answer.

I'd resisted lessons for years as I wasn't interested in technique as such, my mindset was that I was a mountaineer who wanted to be able to get down things on skis as opposed to skiing well. Eventually Mrs65 persuaded me to take lessons and rapidly the penny dropped that if you're going to enjoy doing anything, (as well as looking good which let's admit it is important) then honing technique is key. A single morning with an instructor has produced more improvement in my skiing than weeks of thrashing about on my own or even with friends who are good skiers but aren't coaches. Now I always try to get some instruction when I go on ski holidays now.

In reply to 65:

I agree with this sentiment and hope I've not come across as bullish by not seeking instruction on this occasion. The trip was very much my dad's gig. I've followed him through the hills all my life and trust him implicitly. If I was to venture out again, especially alone, then instruction makes heaps of sense.

In reply to David Bennett:

Bad technique is bad technique, even if you are a beginner,  intermediate, expert or even a professional racer.

And upper body counter rotation (keeping shoulders/upper torso from chest upwards) pointing downhill (or as I put it in different words, upper torso square/perpendicular to the fall line), is good technique. Rolling into turns is with a few racing exceptions bad technique (namely in downhill).

So based on your idea, when people ask about technique things to improve... you advice them on BAD technique (which will be a lot harder to get rid of, once the bad thing sticks). A Novel idea... I guess we should start using this in climbing as well... when someone asks for instructions/advice on a boulder or route, simply tell them to use the ladder walk to the top .

In reply to David Bennett:

Actually, I wasn't thinking of what you had said and I didn't mean to contradict you: I just quoted Moe because I found it amusing that his focus was so basic, and because I was having beginner/intermediate lessons in Canada at the time and my instructor had been telling me the same thing in exactly the same words. Obviously, in skiing as in just about everything, there is a vast array of variation around the basic techniques, particular for the expert.

In reply to John Stainforth:

like many activities it’s about developing a range of tools and knowing where, when and how to apply them

In reply to HeMa:

Straight from the BASI Alpine handbook. Is the body facing down hill all the time? No. In the turn? Yes. Why is the body not facing down before the top of the turn? Because it makes it harder to get weight early on the new outside ski. Does the body largely follow the skis in a long turn? Yes. You may not like the answer but I'm going to take the requirements of my governing body over other opinions from the internet. The above is the advice that an intermediate needs.

In reply to David Bennett:

Absolutely this. It would be weird, unnatural and uncomfortable to point the body down the fall line in turns such as you describe.

In reply to David Bennett:

I know that Sometimes this is taught like that. And being in the British Ski Instructors material certainly explains the bad form presented by a number of your fellow island dwellers. I can counted this with a lot of other examples, like here https://eliteskiing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/PSIA-AASI_32Degrees_W17_...

all which show varying degrees of upper body counter rotation.

as for the point that turn initiation is hard unless you don’t initiate the turn with upper body… again wrong, turn initiation is driver by your feet (driving you to-be uphill ski forward which again facilitates proper weight distribution on both skis through out the turn).

n.b. Even though I am using racing examples above, they are not the best technique for regular skiers… like only putting weight on the outside ski… Again I know this is How it is still often taught (lift the inside ski mid turn). And then you see a lot of people falling due to the inside ski not being ”skied” and flailing and causing falls when the speeds increase…

In reply to HeMa:

You keep using race examples to comment on intermediate approaches. It feels like you are deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying to prove a point and let's criticise a whole nations approach to support a personal view.  I could counter with many links but it's into worth my time. I'm out.