UKH

I've been living in Norway for over ten years, and every year people get caught in avalanches. The first comment from locals is usually: "They're probably foreigners".

It appears the stats back this up, so the Norwegian avalanche warning service has put together a bunch of useful info in English for tourists heading out in the mountains in Norway in winter. 

If you have plans to visit, please follow this link:

https://www.nrk.no/tromsogfinnmark/these-videos-shall-help-ski-tourists-mak...

One thing I'd add, I often see groups travelling with a guide from their home country. While you may trust your countryman I highly recommend using a local guide. The trip will likely be better and safer, there are plenty excellent guides here.

I didn't get chance this year but I must have done about 10 week-long trips to Lyngen and around over the years. My best mate and normal skiing and climbing partner is up there currently with his family and was skiing with the Eagle Ski Club the week previously. Dave said it had gone from some of the best conditions he had seen up there to some of the worst, and he's skied there most years for it must be 30 years now. He said it was madness that people were going out anywhere on the day that the two skiers were killed. But from what I read, the other two fatalities were locals whose farm house was hit and swept out to sea - which does suggest quite exceptionally bad conditions. 

25 years ago when I first went most of the non Norwegians visiting seemed to be Finns. I was quite shocked by the Finns I went with having basically no avalanche awareness. My basic knowledge from 4 Scottish winter seasons made me, slightly worryingly, the 'expert' as I told people I wasn't crossing certain slopes. It seemed to change a lot through the 2000s with more and more guided parties. Do you know what percentage of accidents have been with guided parties? I find it hard to believe that a UIAGM guide from anywhere, taking touring trips to Lyngen or Troms more generally, wouldn't fully appreciate the potential avalanche danger? 

Any stats to back up your slur on foreign guides? None of the articles that I can see mention whether the recent party to be hit had a guide, foreign or otherwise, and I can think of enough accidents in the Alps that involved local guides, probably a mixture of bad luck, heuristics, terrain feeling too familiar to feel risky etc, that I would no more trust a local guide over an IFMGA qualified outsider

And the reason that it is often/normally foreigners getting caught in avalanches is almost certainly because the vast majority of skiers visiting the Lofoten Islands are foreign

Do you actually know that? I've not skied in Lofoten but have always met plenty of Norwegians, both local and "southerners" up for Easter in Lyngen and other areas of Troms.

Nah

'In the last 14 years, 102 people have died in avalanches in Norway. 25 of these were from abroad.'

From the first line of the article. So not sure your statement about most likely foreigners is correct.

There is excellent info on avalanche risk in the Troms and Lyngen areas of Norway. The VARSOM website and map are excellent for avalanche forecast/info and planning routes.

At the start of popular routes there is often an avalanche info board and a transceiver checker.

They have digital information boards at the ferry terminals on Lyngen reminding skiers to check the avalanche forecast.

It's an excellent set up but there will always be folk who don't know they need to know and folk who think they know better and ignore the warnings... Especially when there are fresh tracks to be had.

Maybe I'm wrong on no. of foreign v domestic skiers, I couldn't find any data either way, however, the following link suggests that the only avalanche fatalities in a guided group of any kind in Norway since the 2018/2019 season were some snowmobilers in Svalbard. The nationality of the guide is unclear, organised by a Russian company but a quick google doesn't reveal the guides nationality (presumably not IFMGA), and the relevance to skiing is slim. Therefore, JuneBob's insinuation that foreign aren't safe looks to unfounded BS and he should probably apologise (unless he has data from pre 2018/19 showing otherwise)

https://www.avalanches.org/fatalities/

Here’s an NRK article that lists all of the deadly avalanche accidents in Norway in the last 20 years plus the respective news article to that event if available (Obviously in Norwegian but quite easy to get a good jist with GT).

https://www.nrk.no/tromsogfinnmark/troms-har-flest-skredulykker-i-landet_-4...

From a very quick peruse it’s difficult to say whether tourists or locals are involved more or not. However, it seems that of the deadliest events it’s mostly tourist groups that have been involved: 3 Frenchmen on Beretlia 2022, 4 Swedes on Blabærtinden in 2019, 4 Norwegians in Øksendal, 5 foreigners (French and Swiss) in Kåfjord in 2012, 4 Norwegians on Vefsen in 2010.

Make of that what you will, if I remember correctly the group in Kåfjord were with a guide on a ski and sail expedition (doesn’t state specifically in the article) otherwise I don’t see any reference to guides being with the other groups.

I've always thought the stats for there weren't that good, but I'm not sure how it compares to elsewhere, maybe it looks worse just because there are more people off in the back country, so fatalities are the same ratio.

The Finns, Swedes, French and Italians seem to make the news, but that's likely bias. Perhaps complacency among natives is playing part. 

From a fair amount of hut to hut touring I've found the conditions very variable, like Scotland just more snow, that's probably due being influenced by westerly weather systems, long term stable highs felt rare. Perhaps Oslo has nice weather as the edge of low pressure pushes across further north, then come the weekend the city folk head north and ski regardless because they've travelled, without considering the weather or conditions were different. Scotland has the same phenomenon with people heading into the hills after travelling. 

I've skied the mountain above Kåfjord where that horrible accident happened. I think it was a guided party, but that's is just from memory. 

There are a number of non-Norwegian guides who are based up there now so this isn't really a local vs foreigner thing, perhaps more resident vs non resident guides. I definitely remember being told certain years that weak layers in the snow had persisted all winter and to be careful. I guess you're more likely to have a sense of that if you've been up there all winter rather than just flown in for a week or two.

They blame foreigners for everything. 

Could say the same here for the swede guide that lost his life to an avalanche in the Alps quite recently. Alot of guides would lose their work in the Alps with that attitude. Also you can guide in Norway with no qualification so I`d rather fork out for the experienced IFMGA if i wanted.

People lose their lives and others making it a patriotic point to gloat. Petty.

If you are complaining about tarring everyone with the same brush, perhaps you should be a bit more clear about who the "they" is here?

The locals who I have met - often who we have rented accommodation from - in Lyngen over the years have always been unfailingly friendly and welcoming - some now run businesses based on tourism. But concern doesn't seem unreasonable. The two fatalities last week in Troms last week that were skiing accidents did both sadly involve tourists from abroad, and it sounded like rescue services got really stretched in the area including permanent habitation that needed to be evacuated. No one seems to get charged for rescue in Norway, and they like UK MRTs, they don't seem to be at all judgemental about people skiing places where they shouldn't and then needing rescue.

The majority of Norwegians. From bad wiring in houses to work related issues and avalanches ive heard it all. "Foreigners".

Nobody is doubting the concern. Its the " foreigners" comment people are bored of and the push towards using local guides when possibly their only qualification could possibly be being born there. 

Even the head of the NVE avalanche warning spouts this garbage: "

– Those from Alpine countries are more used to the fact that the snow stabilizes quickly with the heat in the spring and that south-facing mountain sides are safe, especially before the sun gets out during the day. Whereas here in Norway we have many accidents on persistently weak layers also in southern areas and in the spring, says Engeset."

Imagine the head of the SAIS saying that about people from the south?

Most in the Alps have been hunkered down for weeks dodging wild weather when we shouldve just got on the south faces. What about the Alpine countries during winter or do we only get spring snow?

Memories of the accident reports in the SMC journal.

I think you have completely missed Rune’s point with that statement. Norwegian winters, especially those above the arctic circle (and Norway in general) are much longer and very different regarding temperature fluctuations and it’s impact in the snowpack. Especially in comparison to the alps or Scotland. Here a weak layer from November can easily kill in March, opposed to a weak layer from last week… 

The group of italians that got caught in an avalanche in Lyngen last friday were with an italian guide. The details were in the local newspapers.

The statistics do show that foreigners are overrepresented in the avalanche fatalities, especially here in Troms and Finnmark which accounts for nearly half of all the avalanche fatalities in Norway in the last 20 years (45 out of 112). Of those, 34 have been related to ski incidents - 19 foreigners vs 15 from Norway. The problem is that when its a foreigner involved, its immediately assumed that either 1) they don't get the information they need from the English version of the forecast 2) they don't understand the complexities of the Arctic snowpack (which I think is to some extent true) or 3) they are trying to maximize their time on an expensive trip by going out anyway instead of waiting for conditions to settle "like locals would". My guess is that any one of these would apply in some of the cases. I think the main problem with the tourist-related cases getting too much attention, is that we have police, representatives from local authorities and the hospital who don't have enough understanding of avalanche hazard, and then they state that the conditions are "livsfarlig" (literally, life threatening) and that everyone should stay at home and not go up any mountains. And the general public, who don't know any better believe this. The last few days there have been articles in the local newspapers where police/local authorities have been quoted as getting tired of seeing foreigners "ignore" these warnings, and there have even been pictures sent in where someone has taken a pictures of tracks on a mountain (over 30 degreees) to illustrate their point that they must be those of foreigners, knowing nothing about the decisions and evaluation of the snowpack those people may have made. They also don't get that we still have plenty of mountains where you can still go skiing without even going anywhere near avalanche terrain (release+runout zones). This is why there is so much big deal made out of foreigners getting caught in avalanches than when its a local. Even the supervisor for the Lyngen red cross team has said that the lack of knowledge about avalanches is leading to locals "demonising" the ski tourists.

On a positive note, after all the debate of the last week there has now been financed a new project to start a competence centre for avalanche preparedness in Lyngen, whose objectives will be to educate the local population, travel operators, rescue teams & volunteers as well as developing better ways to reach out to foreign visitors.

The risk can even increase with time as depth hoar crystals grow and potentially last all season, or until there's enough load on it to trigger an avalanche. (I suspect you know this already)

A weak layer from November causing problems in March can be true, but the fatalities from the last few years (in Troms and Finnmark) have been caused by weak layers that formed rapidly in the week before, primarily due to changes in the weather (from warm snowpack to cold, or because of prolonged cold dry spells causing weak layers to form under a sun crust). Even in 2021 when there was a major avalanche on Sofiatinden, the weak layer that formed wasn't caught quickly enough by the avalanche forecasters until after the tragedy

A weak layer is a weak layer regardless of how old it is and individual avalanche/ condition awareness is the only way to keep yourself protected against it. Plenty in the Alps have avalanche awareness and are exposed to the extreme cold snow conditions also especially this winter. His saying people here are used to quick curing snow is an assumption.

Does VARSOM keep track of any area specific details like the "November weak layers"? These should be well noted and made obvious through the VARSOM app as well as the weather, temperature and condition fluctuations that will differ between Lyngen for example and Kvaløya. Its been a while since I used Varsom so not too sure.

I hadn't heard about the Sofiatinden avalanche. Do you have a link for the details on it?

A reminder I guess that the avalanche forecast is only as good as the weather forecast

Writing the detailed forecasts in a language that is translatable by google (rather than local dialect) would help - it's mentioned in this (which is worth a read);

https://varsom.no/media/oihfnq1f/ulykkesrapport-erikaksla_final.pdf

google "snøskred sofiatinden 1 mai 2021" and a load of articles will come up, mostly from the local and national news. The avalanche forecast was upgraded from a 2 to 3 the day after they realised the layer of facets were a problem.....

The Norwegian version of the forecast gives a description of the snowpack history, but they only describe recent events that are responsible for the current avalanche problems. So if the November facets are not a problem (and at the moment it would be deeply buried and difficult to affect anyway) then it won't be mentioned.

This project - launched in 2020/21 – might be of interest. The 2022 report* is in English

https://uit.no/research/carepanel The Center for Avalanche Research and Education ( CARE ) at UiT the Arctic University of Norway wishes to follow 10,000 people for 10 years in order to gain knowledge about how we make decisions in avalanche terrain, and what we can do to reduce avalanche fatalities

* https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QIzXBYljH8SOYkLK38MxqVA7_hdTYy-o/view

I never checked back on this,  too busy trying to ski without getting avalanched. 

Seems some people are twisting my words and then getting upset. I'm not going to apologise for that. 

I stand by everything I said.