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> Adds up to 5.3 degrees C to the temperature rating of your sleeping bag.
It looks like it's what Cocoon claims, but it's just an astronomically high number to me.
Are Cocoon aware of how elephants are 'broken-in' by humans to enable humans to be able to ride them?
They are really naive to show images of animal cruelty like that, I wouldn't buy any of their products having seen it. UKC should seriously consider refusing to publish such photos and should feedback this to Cocoon...
> > Adds up to 5.3 degrees C to the temperature rating of your sleeping bag.
> It looks like it's what Cocoon claims, but it's just an astronomically high number to me.
And a spurious degree of specificity!
> They are really naive to show images of animal cruelty like that, I wouldn't buy any of their products having seen it. UKC should seriously consider refusing to publish such photos and should feedback this to Cocoon...
Yes, the elephant's spirits are broken by harsh treatment until they eventually give up. We don't know what it is which we don't know, though, so long as Cocoon learn about how elephants are treated and use that knowledge when choosing pictures that's good enough for me.
An inexperienced user acting on the basis of this figure is likely to experience some very cold and restless nights.
this is pretty awful
What a shitty advert showing an elephant being treated like some kind of object for human pleasure with no thought to how it is an intelligent sentient social animal. This kind of stuff is part of the picture of why the world is in a period of mass extinction and wildlife habitat loss. "Elephant numbers have dropped by 62% over the last decade, and they could be mostly extinct by the end of the next decade." http://worldelephantday.org/about/elephants
I am going to post this message here and also use the '!Report' facility.
And it features on the home page of UKC as well. This is simply unacceptable.
> And a spurious degree of specificity!
I was curious enough to see where that figure is coming from as I was sure it wasn't UKC who came up with it. They do have more liners with some very specific figures on their website as well, so I shot them an email. I got a reply from them:
> the temperature tests are performed by an independent laboratory. They take place in a cold chamber. The temperature rating of a sleeping bag is tested with and without liner. The difference is what we call the „added temperature“ – the temperature the liner adds to the temperature rating of the sleeping bag.
I could ask them what standard it conforms to as they don't quote one and I am not sure whether EN13537 considers sleeping bag liners.
Snake oil? I bet.
Interesting article from the BBC (back in 2017) about elephant tourism
Wow. How awful:
"Millions of people want selfies riding elephants, or washing them, or patting their trunks. But according to a study carried out by World Animal Protection (WAP) across Asia this is helping to fuel a rise in elephants captured from the wild and kept for entertainment. The number in Thailand has increased by almost a third over the last five years.
WAP researchers assessed almost 3,000 elephants and found that more than three quarters were living in "severely cruel" conditions. Many were bound with chains less than 3m long and were forced to stand on concrete floors close to loud roads, crowds and music.
Some 160 travel companies have already committed to stop selling tickets to or promoting venues offering elephant rides and shows. In 2016, TripAdvisor announced that it would end the sale of tickets for wildlife experiences where tourists come in to direct contact with wild animals, including elephant riding.
Dr Jan Schmidt-Burbach, Global Wildlife and veterinary adviser at World Animal Protection (WAP), said: "The cruel trend of elephants used for rides and shows is growing - we want tourists to know that many of these elephants are taken from their mothers as babies, forced to endure harsh training and suffer poor living conditions throughout their life."
Time that UKC and Cocoon got up to speed on this.
Hi all, thanks for the comments - we've removed the elephant picture and I have contacted Cocoon for their response about this and the temperature stats.
Animal cruelty is abhorrent and we would never want to condone it at UKC.
Great, swift reply and action Theo - good job
Thanks for your prompt action in removing and responding to this, hopefully you sent a strong message to them. It would be interesting to read their response...
Hi everybody - thanks for the comments - quite right it was a poor choice of image. Many apologies for any offence caused, we certainly do not condone any form of animal cruelty.
Thanks to Theo for helping us update the photo.
The Cocoon liners were tested independently at the large US retailer REI's Quality Assurance Laboratory.
Our understanding is that the test is done in a properly controlled laboratory environment, measuring the heat loss from heated mannequins placed inside the liners.
> The Cocoon liners were tested independently at the large US retailer REI's Quality Assurance Laboratory.
> Our understanding is that the test is done in a properly controlled laboratory environment, measuring the heat loss from heated mannequins placed inside the liners.
Fantastic. Point me at the data please.
I can give you some data!
https://www.rei.com/product/850427/cocoon-silk-mummy-liner
> Liner protects and keeps your sleeping bag clean, and can add up to 5°F to the temperature rating of your sleeping bag
> Added Warmth (C) Up to 2.8 degrees
https://www.cocoon.at/en/service/temperature-chart/
> silk, added temperature: +5.3 °C
Some more data points in https://www.random.org/
Perhaps its a jumbled conversion between Centigrade, Fahrenheit and freezing point ? More likely is that I just cant do my sums or understand science ....
> I can give you some data!
> > Liner protects and keeps your sleeping bag clean, and can add up to 5°F to the temperature rating of your sleeping bag
> > silk, added temperature: +5.3 °C
> Some more data points in https://www.random.org/
I think you and I might disagree about what constitutes data and how that's different to "claim".
I have a website that says my special socks add 15oC warmth to the rating of any sleeping bag... you see the problem here (apart form that nobody in their right mind would want to wear my socks)? So, no, another website claiming that their liners are the mutt's nuts does not evidence make.
http://www.autexrj.com/cms/zalaczone_pliki/5-06-3.pdf
You're right, the conversion is correct. The Celsius/Fahrenheit difference is linear, it's just shifted by 32 and multiplied by 9/5. That is, if you increase by 2.8°C, the temperature in Fahrenheit will increase by 5°F no matter what the ambient temperature is.
For example: (5°C × 9/5) + 32 = 41°F
What I meant was that First Ascent Online claim Cocoon used REI as an independent tester, but then description in the REI page does not match what they have tested?
Sorry, I hoped my tongue in cheek with a line to Random.org was a decent enough clue I wasn't serious!
If REI as both a tester and a retailer cannot agree on the figures, then I don't know I would want to see the test and the data associated to it.
Ah-ha! Gotcha. No worries!
I'm still curious as to how the number was achieved. Just having an air gap between sleeping bag and the liner might explain it.
I played around the PHD sleeping bag maker and the 5C difference is roughly (just over) 100g of 900FP down. Surely a 110g sleeping bag liner cannot be as efficient as 100g of high quality down?
> I played around the PHD sleeping bag maker and the 5C difference is roughly (just over) 100g of 900FP down. Surely a 110g sleeping bag liner cannot be as efficient as 100g of high quality down?
No, it can't. The claim is bollox
> Interesting article from the BBC (back in 2017) about elephant tourism
There is more here. I haven't read it, but it's possibly distressing reading for some people.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/17/elephants-used-tourist-rides-screamed-agony-...
The reality behind the docile elephants is that they're kept afraid of humans.