Tricams for winter climbing.

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 James Gordon 22 Dec 2022

For those with experience of them which sizes have yiu found most useful and especially if you’ve used them in the winter? Many thanks,

 CantClimbTom 22 Dec 2022
In reply to James Gordon:

Tricams???

Prepare the feathers and warm the tar. We have an unbeliever of the great cowbells in our midst 

2
 Alex Riley 22 Dec 2022
In reply to James Gordon:

I've tried placing them in winter, once was enough to put me off.

Slightly tongue in cheek, I'm sure you can get good placements, they just seemed a bit faffy and useless for me.

1
 tehmarks 22 Dec 2022
In reply to James Gordon:

If they're as great as they are in summer...

 beardy mike 22 Dec 2022
In reply to James Gordon:

So the truth is, if you like them you like them. Personally I like then, and I carry 4 sizes, red to green. I find they will go where absolutely nothing else will. Try some mates out on ground where things are tricky. The reality is they are not friends or hexes, they are their own thing, and saying they are rubbish is just fashionable.

 a crap climber 22 Dec 2022
In reply to James Gordon:

They can be a bit marmite-y.

Personally I'm a massive fan, carry white to brown. The white is only good for a couple of kN though so arguably not worth it, but it's not exactly heavy. Have contemplated more every now and again but never bothered. 

I'd say start with a pink and a red and see how you get on. The pink is so good it even has a fan page http://www.swarpa.net/~danforth/climb/sinkthepink.html

Make sure your second knows how to clean them!

Needle sports have a sale of them on at the moment.

 Baron Weasel 22 Dec 2022
In reply to James Gordon:

Upon Stephen Reid of Needle Sports recommendation I carry pink and blue. Not used them much but I'm told they can be very useful at times.

 PaulJepson 22 Dec 2022
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Blue fits in shot holes but other than that I don't find that useful for summer rock. Anything else that will take that size tricam will always take a cam just as well. I like black to red for limestone though, as they often sit well in pockets and horizontal breaks. 

Never used in winter but they allegedly have better holding power than cams in icey cracks (and are quite a bit lighter).

6
 beardy mike 23 Dec 2022
In reply to a crap climber:

So the pink IMO is only really relevant for climbing on quarried grit. Winter is a different scenario entirely and I'd say where they shine is in the mid to large sizes. In the small sizes they are a bit faffy with gloves on. Where I feel they are really useful is in odd shaped pods, stuff where a cam won't even sit, and hexes might only be half in. Personally I don't get on with Hexes, so Tricams are great, especially in iced cracks. You can get all sorts of weird placements to work. Yes, it's not as easy as banging in a cam, but I'd say no worse than a hex. Getting them out in the winter is actually super easy as you can just use your pick to hook them out - easier than in the summer with your fingers.

 CacCarnBeag 23 Dec 2022
In reply to James Gordon:

Hi James, yes! Blue and Green - used them a lot. 

I find they go into rock features that you would normally discount as a gear placement. The spike makes use of little dimples in flared cracks.

When you seat them it feels like the spike bites through crud/verglass which gives some extra confidence. 

I seem to find myself placing them on the Ben quite a bit.

1
 Gawyllie 23 Dec 2022
In reply to James Gordon:

I have a few small ones that i take most days out in winter. Find them pretty useful. Especially good for sandstone cliff like those found in the NW and also handy when cracks are iced.

I think i have the 3 smallest sizes. The white one is a bit small and probably not worth bothering with. Pink and red are good. Havennt bothered with bigger than that so cant comment.

Always worth checking your second knows to uncam them to get them out or its easy to lose them forever in cracks.

OP James Gordon 26 Dec 2022
In reply to CacCarnBeag:

Thanks mucker!

 Dave_Stocks 30 Dec 2022
In reply to James Gordon:

Hi James, 

I use them in the winter and find that especially useful getting a placement where nothing else would go. There is a knack to placing them and cleaning them but once you have used them i wouldn't go back to not having them. 

Size wise to try them get the 4 pack which is pink to blue. The black is also super handy but harder to clean with your axe. Once you decide if there for you or not then buy some bigger sizes. 

 Euge 04 Jan 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

I have a set, I only carry the pink in summer but the set in winter (as I don't carry Friends in winter).

Personally, I love them.

Euge

OP James Gordon 04 Jan 2023
In reply to Dave_Stocks:

Thanks Dave, just used them a day ago and they look like they’re gonna be a regular feature!

 rogerwebb 04 Jan 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

> Thanks Dave, just used them a day ago and they look like they’re gonna be a regular feature!

If that is the case some us are going to have to work on our removal technique...

(All tips gratefully received)

OP James Gordon 04 Jan 2023
In reply to rogerwebb:

Ha! Maybe a spare abalakov threader??

 beardy mike 04 Jan 2023
In reply to rogerwebb:

It's actually really easy, tap the nut with your pick to loosen it, then if its still in place, hook behind the point and pull towards you  if it hasn't already fallen out. It's easier than with hands...

In reply to James Gordon:

...but has anyone actually fallen on one?

 rogerwebb 04 Jan 2023
In reply to beardy mike:

Thanks.

It's an issue I hadn't thought about until I came to his second runner. Gave myself the heats using my hands.

 TobyA 04 Jan 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

A long, long time ago, in a galaxy (ok, country) far, far away: https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/climbing/protection/camp_tri-cams-1366

I'm not sure if I ever took a lead fall onto them. I did send the mini ones to Franco Cookson for some project he was working on. He falls off a lot, and he's still with us, so I suspect they worked for him!

 PaulJepson 05 Jan 2023
In reply to TobyA:

He also seems to crater a lot :-D

 beardy mike 05 Jan 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Well seeing as they were invented in the late 70s I'm pretty sure someone has...

1
 CurlyStevo 05 Jan 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

they come in to their own in cracks that are frosted or lightly iced up. It takes a lot of cleaning to stop cams worryingly skating about in this scenario something which sometimes is impossible to prevent. Tricams tend to bight much better in this scenario. 

 TobyA 05 Jan 2023
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Have you fallen on them in such a situation then?

In reply to TobyA:

Love the old school geekery!

 Jimbo C 05 Jan 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

My very limited* experience of them is that they can be great for the leader and can also be a real pain for the second.

*once only

 TobyA 05 Jan 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I have since watched Donnie Darko! It was weird but fun as I remember it. Maybe rather like tricams after all. 

 CurlyStevo 05 Jan 2023
In reply to TobyA:

I've never fallen in winter but I can judge gear suitability reasonably well.

Post edited at 15:01
 Kai 06 Jan 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

Has anyone used the tricams with wire instead of the slings?

like these:

https://verticallstore.com/products/abalak-elox-set

Wondering if they would be easier to place while wearing gloves.

 hutchymh 06 Jan 2023
In reply to Kai:

I got a set last month, used them on 2 winter days so far - felt simple enough to place and easy to clean.

Recommended

 Euge 06 Jan 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

> ...but has anyone actually fallen on one?

Yup, I have, in winter on a blue one (or green one). Held very well in an icy crack

Euge

 TobyA 06 Jan 2023
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Proof of the pudding is in... and all that. ;⁠-⁠) 

 CurlyStevo 07 Jan 2023
In reply to TobyA:

They clearly do hold when well placed in the general scenario it would be frivolous to suggest otherwise.
 

The reason they can be better than cams in icy cracks (when sufficiently cleaned) is that when the nose is in a dimple they can be ‘set’ in a parallel or even flaring crack much like a nut can be set in a tapering crack and provide very secure placements, in fact getting them out can be a right pain and one of their disadvantages imo. They will work actively with the nose less securely held in but it’s not the ideal placement imo. Obviously when placed like nuts they work fine passively too.

Cams even when placed in pockets when icy still often skate about when test pulled, although less so on very sharp gnarly rock like granite imo. Cams also require the crack to be much more thoroughly cleaned than tricams do.

Post edited at 11:57
 Holdtickler 07 Jan 2023
In reply to Kai:

I've used both designs (but not in winter). I actually prefer the wired ones. They are a lot easier to place one handed and for more reachy placements. The stiffer wire gives you more reach as you can hold the wire and makes it so that the unit is already orientated correctly (as opposed to the camp ones, where you have to flip the cam over the sling first before insertion). The spring action from the wire also gives a degree of active camming. The wire probably makes them slightly easier to clean, by waggling sideways but the flipside of this is that they need to be well extended to prevent them falling out at the wrong times. 

 Simon Yearsley 10 Jan 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

A definite fan. Used them loads in winter. I don't bother with them in summer. As lots of folk have mentioned, they come into their own in really icy cracks when cams can prove crap (or worse still, the cam looks like it might be ok, but then rips because of the thinnest veneer of ice - something which I've experienced, and have no wish to repeat!).  If there's a high likelihood of dry rock, dry cracks, I've carried just cams (and wires of course).  If there's a higher likelihood of icy cracks, then I've taken fewer cams and more Tricams.  On a big mixed route, I've regularly taken a rack of 6: Pink, Red, Brown, Blue (bear in mind there are annoyingly 2 Blue sizes, one with red stitching and one slightly bigger with black) White and Orange. Orange is excellent as it's a slightly different design, not solid and therefore lighter than the White.  I did have the next size up, the Yellow, but ended up abbing off it somewhere in the NW. Yes, they do take a wee bit of getting used to to place quickly, but I'd argue that cams and indeed wires do (should) take some practice to place properly/safely. It does take a wee bit of practice (before you use them in anger!) to remove them, but placing and removing is just a matter of learning a simple new technique. Better in my view to learn a new technique than to rely solely on a cam in an icy crack. Other thoughts: I've fallen on them quite a few times (always held and always nicely easy to remove afterwards, unlike some wires); they are lighter than most cams; they make a nice jangly noise on your harness.  


 French Erick 12 Jan 2023
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I've never fallen in winter but I can judge gear suitability reasonably well.

I have never used tri cams in any seasons bar once as a 2nd. I have fallen in winter quite a few times, I was pretty sure of my gear as otherwise would not have taken the risk.

 French Erick 12 Jan 2023
In reply to Simon Yearsley:

That’s very interesting Simon. Thanks for posting.

 I got one don’t particularly like jangly noises on my harness though!

Post edited at 07:12
 TechnoJim 12 Jan 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

I think someone upthread was recommending them.

After watching this thread with interest, I've just borrowed a set of pink to blue from a mate to try out next week. 

 C Witter 12 Jan 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

> ...but has anyone actually fallen on one?

I've fallen onto the pink about 4 or 5 times. Bomber!

1
In reply to C Witter:

That's confidence! Don't think I've ever managed to place one that I'd be willing to lob on, but sounds like that's my fault and not theirs  

 Holdtickler 12 Jan 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

Yes, see my comment above for a comparison of the 2 designs. 

In addition I'd add that in my experience, tricams are best saved for horizontal placements in breaks/pockets. This is for 2 reasons: The first is that there are usually better options in vertical cracks, nuts/hexes. The 2nd is probably more an issue for the wired variety but is because they are more likely to work themselves loose due to the direction of the force from the rope as you climb. If you are forced to use either design in a vertical placement be mindful of this and extend well. Likewise be wary of sideways movement in horizontal placements.

Oh and they do need a good tug to set them.

edit- typo

Post edited at 11:31
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OP James Gordon 12 Jan 2023
In reply to Simon Yearsley:

Awesome! Thanks Simon (we met in the Dunkeld deli once) I’ll maybe search for couple of the larger sizes too. 
 

 geezer 13 Jan 2023
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I have taken a decent fall onto a tricam ! In winter in icy cracks !  

I am defintely a fan of tricams and have a reasonably full set that I use in winter.  But the rest of the team need to be on boards otherwise it doesnt work well and you end up carrying extra kit!

The big yellow one is great on a weight / size of kit ratio 

 midgen 06 Feb 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

Gave the Kouba Abalaks a first outing at the weekend. Glad I did as they ended up being the majority of the runners I placed on one pitch. Only placements I could find were shallow parallel cracks, and lacking any small cams, they were perfect. The wire acts as a spring so you just push them in by the wire and they seat quite firmly. They will be living on my rack! Followers didn't complain about removing them.

 DaveHK 21 Feb 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

Got myself a set of Abalaks and I've just been out to  Pinnacle Crag to have a play around with them.

It turns out you can teach an old dog new tricks!

There was a bit of a learning curve in both placement and removal but after about an hour playing around I got my eye in and started seeing placements for them where I previously would never have looked. The crag is schist and has all the usual shallow pods and undercut flanges that you'd normally have a quick glance at and move on. The Abalaks didn't work in every one but there were plenty of places where they gave what appeared to be a solid placement where nothing else would have come close.

Over the last few years I've added superlight rocks and offsets to my rack. Both are good but more marginal gains than game changers. I'm definitely a convert and will be taking them in winter and perhaps a few of the smaller ones on some routes in summer.

 The Grist 21 Feb 2023
In reply to James Gordon: 

Over the years I have climbed with two people in winter who use tricams regularly. One if these climbers uses them a lot in summer as well. I have always been really impressed with their placements especially on mixed grade 6 and 7. They tended to use the smaller sizes. I have never seen them hold a fall as no one fell off to test it but taking them out they seemed bomber. The were generally in placements were a nut would be rubbish and a cam would just slide out due to ice. I am therefore a big fan.

That said I am useless at placing them myself and do not own any. The trick is to buy them and get good at placing them then they will probably serve you well. 

 markk 21 Feb 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

If I burn your tricams will we get our winter back?

 abcdef 22 Feb 2023
In reply to James Gordon:

so what is the consensus around whether tape or wired versions would be most useful in winter? (there probably isn't any, as possibly no-one has both...)

 DaveHK 22 Feb 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

> There was a bit of a learning curve in both placement and removal 

Just to add to this. I really enjoyed the process of learning to place the Abalaks, it's been a long, long time since I had to get my head around something genuinely new in climbing and I'd forgotten how rewarding that could be. 

I'm not sure how often they'd be the only available pro but I think they offer enough additional options to be worth carrying some of the time. I think I'll start taking the biggest 3 Abalaks on winter routes as a matter of course. In summer, I'll probably start carrying the smallest 3 on some routes/rock types. I can see them being particularly useful on schist, gneiss and limestone*, all rock types where you get pockets and those weird, flary pods.

*not that I get much chance to do trad on limestone these days.

 DaveHK 22 Feb 2023
In reply to abcdef:

> so what is the consensus around whether tape or wired versions would be most useful in winter? (there probably isn't any, as possibly no-one has both...)

I've only used the wire ones so happy to take correction from anyone who has used both.

The spring in the wire seemed to help with holding the piece in place prior to setting it with a tug, this might help with one handed placement. In the smaller sizes it's harder to depress the wire into the groove as the nut offers a smaller lever so these would be harder if not impossible to place with gloves on. That's one reason why I'm only going to take the bigger ones in winter.

I suspect there might not be much absolute advantage to either and that it's personal preference/what you're used to.

OP James Gordon 22 Feb 2023
In reply to markk:

😂🤞


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