UKH

I’ve just moved down to south from Scotland and am wondering about winter ethics. Did a soggy VDiff on Tryfan yesterday and thought it would make a good winter route but no mention on UKC…is there some ethnic down here about not climbing classic rock routes in winter? Shame as it looked like it would make a good winter route if the cliff comes in

I think you probably know the answer to that question and are only likely to p*ss people off by feigning ignorance in order to insinuate your superiority to such an attitude.

Probably the same way winter climbers have been scarring good summer routes in Scotland since the late 80's, frowned upon but unlikely that anyone will do much other than shout at you over the internet. 

Ffs mate. Not everyone posting on these forums is wanting to get into an argument with you. It’s clearly a very different ethic down here then. Might have thought a climbing forum would be a good place for this kind of question 

I don't think there's an issue with some routes getting climbed in winter. A lot of the summer ridges and gullies are climbed in winter (e.g. Great Gully (Winter) (IV)). I don't think a typical classic Welsh VDif would be on though; Wales doesn't get iced up like Scotland and you'd just be trashing the route for 99.9% of the people who will be on it (in summer conditions).  

What was the route?

You are Tom Livingstone and I claim my five pounds!

Ethnics climbing anywhere is encouraged anytime of the year

Me? Argue? I'd never dream of doing such a thing. If I had a reputation, I'm sure it would be as a very sanguine and agreeable sort of fellow.

Ah it was actually a Diff - Pinnacle Rib Route. 

Mountains are not stadiums where I satisfy my ambition

They are cathedrals where I practice my religion

Hoping for some education here, not simply lots of down arrows.  Having never climbed Tyfan summer or winter, what exactly is the problem with turning up when it is frozen and climbing it via any route that looks doable on the day.  Down here in the far SW folk ice climb the cliffs in Newquay on those very rare occasions that conditions allow.

hi mate, to be honest its incredibly rare that tryfan will freeze up sufficiently that low down (the start of the route is fairly low altitude) for the route to be considered acceptible by any winter ethical standards, and on the rare occasions when that does actually happen, you are far better off heading to cwm idwal and the devils kitchen!

This is probably the most relevant answer. However to answer the question, there is no equivalent of the Lakes Winter Guide or whatever it’s called for Wales. It’s not often that summer routes get done as FWAs but it does happen. Needs to be the right kind of route on the right kind of cliff obviously. There are plenty of classic winter routes which are also summer routes but they don’t tend to be 3 star summer routes (but some are).

A massive if.

There are some winter routes on Tryfan IIRC but not many because it rarely is in winter conditions. Some of the rock routes above on the East Face of Bristly Ridge have been climbed as mixed routes and are of the same aspect. But they are higher and not continually climbed mega classics like on Tryfan.

There's a bit in the intro of the old (80s) Welsh Winter guide which basically is a warning to the Scots, and anyone overly influenced by what was happening in Scotland, to steer clear of winter ascents of classic rock routes as it just wasn't the done thing. But that was back when you could regularly be climbing WI4 in soggy combs so who would be interested in scratching their way up a snowy Diff when there were cascades to climb. More recently there have been fewer cascades forming and more people scratching up high and less regularly climbed summer lines, but not Tryfan because that's Tryfan and it wouldn't be cricket.

The Ground Up guide isn't perfect but it is a guidebook. What do you mean it's not equivalent to the Lake winter guide?

I was referring to the BMC Lakes winter ethics statement. White guide or winter guide, something like that. Not an actual guide book.

Edit - there’s a paragraph on appropriate conditions in the ground up but it’s pretty general. The BMC thing is quite prescriptive and restrictive.

Stuff in Idwal looks so sick, proper psyched to get stuck into some of the mixed up there. I guess tryfan isn’t actually that high is it. Also messaged you about peak next week, I might be about 

I think there is one for Wales isn't there?  I might be going mad but I thought I had both in paper form.... 

Edit: not going mad (good!): https://www.thebmc.co.uk/north-wales-white-guide

The real mixed winter climbing is on Clogwyn Du in the Nameless Cwm, but the climbing is mostly at the upper end of the scale. Over to the left of this are the Tower Gully climbs which are not as tough. Regarding Tryfan, I can recall an ascent of Gashed Crag after a good freeze which gave good sport, but that was in the late 80s. But the really top venues for Welsh winter are the Black Ladders & Clogwyn y Garnedd, being the most snowsure and frigid.

However those areas noted above are the most vulnerable plant habitats and really are best suited to full conditions when there is a liberal coating of snow & ice. Tryfan's East Face is not as Flora rich but it is a prime rock-climbing venue, unlike the other areas that have been highlighted.

Having said all the above I'm sorry but Scotland is where winter climbing is best, whatever style you tackle.

On a more practical level the East face of Tryfan is SSE facing. At these lower latitudes and altitudes that means it will only hold fresh snow and strip before any ice builds up. In Wales the only crags where decent conditions ever develop face N or NE.

yep, im not suggesting there is lots of mixed in the devils kitchen, merely that if it is cold enough to freeze up the rock routes on tryfan, then there will be absolutely stonking ice easily accesible low down!

Cwm Cneifon please and thank you. 

Psyched on black ladders too, Flanders looks wicked. But Scotland is clearly superior to anything south of the border

Less chance of spelling 'nameless' wrong!

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/north-wales-white-guide

The fact you can’t be bothered to learn it’s proper name isn’t an excuse for anglicising it.

English person in Speaking English shocker.

Just to elaborate this, I just don't get this drive to use foreign names, spellings and pronunciations when speaking English.  It seems so superficial and stupid.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love speaking foreign languages and have in the past made a reasonable stab at speaking to the locals in German, French, Italian, Czech and Turkish, but when I'm speaking English I like to use English words as that's the language I'm speaking.

I understand people getting frustrated at English people not attempting to converse with locals in their lingo, but when speaking to other ( in the main) English people.....?

The Black Ladders in good nick is as good as most of the scottish cliffs I've climbed on

I admire your optimism, but it's been slim pickings there since 2013. Flanders has only got 3 logged ascents in the last 10 years. Clogwyn Du seems more reliable for decent conditions.

I think publication of the Ground Up guide cursed the whole area conditions wise.

Dam! I said Black Ladders and not Ysgolion Duon!!!

I refer to the Nameless Cwm by that appellation because that's what it was known as for years by the climbing community. And as for referring to the Idwal Slabs by their Welsh name, well that would baffle most climbers.

Names of places however don’t need to be translated. Enjoy your ascent of Mount White next time you are in Chamonix. 

Damn, you beat me to it. 

And what about the thousands,  no millions, of places that have different names in different languages how should we refer to them?

Given that 'cwm' is Welsh, it seems a bit bizarre to justify the lazy translation under the pretext of speaking English...

Whaddaya mean "pretext"? He was speaking English.

Yes and no. That’s to do with botanics, which is fine. The Lakes one is very prescriptive about which rock routes can and can’t be climbed in winter, unless they’re established routes. Basically anything starred is not on, as far as I recall. Whether this is actually respected is another question. So it was ethics rather than botanics. Ethics dictated by local rock climbers, I suspect. 

Or even Cwm Cneifion?

I think it’s fair to say that most climbers who don’t speak Welsh use English names for some crags but not others. Cwm Cneifion seems more common these days. Black Ladders is probably more common, though I like the sound of Ysgolion Duon more. Cloggy is probably universal except occasionally in print. So it depends and over time these things evolve. 

And Rhiwiau Caws... Sean'll know that one.😊

People definitely climb starred classic summer rock routes in winter in the lakes. Engineers Slab for example.

Names of places don't need to be translated but they often are. How many of us would refer to Venezia, Roma or Torino rather than Venice, Rome or Turin when speaking other English people? They'd probably think you were a tw@t if you did.

And if you mentioned you were off to Sicily for a week's climbing and there happened to be an Italian present would it be reasonable for him to harangue you for not calling it Sicilia even though most of the other English speakers present wouldn't know where you were talking about if you had called it Sicilia?

I think most Italians are sufficiently chilled out to not worry about this sort of thing, indeed this sort of self flagellation seems to be a peculiarly English thing.

Can't we just chill out a bit? The places mentioned in this thread have English names and they have Welsh names, use whatever you like, as long as we know where we're talking about.

"Unless they're established routes"... how long has Engineers Slab been done as a winter route? Long enough to be considered 'established' I'd have thought.

Well to give something a name in a different language is one thing, but then at least make sure that the name kind of approximates a translation of the original name. You wouldn't call De Nederlandse Route on Annapurna The Unknown Rib just because you can't pronounce Nederlandse. 

What you want to do is wait until the route is cosmetically white and do the route with the aid of a shovel, a sledge hammer, 8 pegs, a US Army helicopter loaded up with napalm and agent orange and a power drill. Ice axe and crampons optional.

The Unknown Rib on the Everlasting Food mountain, actually.

Yes it's very multicultural 

Phew! Good to hear I can keep using Mount Snowdon even when Welch people are about.

You mean like how Everest translates to the same as Chomolungma?

Same debate, different mountain. 

In general yes, but it’s about the context. In a country like Italy where Italian is easily the dominant language then nobody’s going to care. But in the UK, Welsh is a minority language in a country completely dominated by English and it is a constant battle to keep it going. In this context, then using made up English names like Nameless Cwm, Newborough beach and so on, very often catch on and all of a sudden the original names and the history behind them get lost. It’s just a constant chipping away at our history and identity.

I wonder how Welsh people even know that Cwm Cneifion exists let alone that a handful of English climbers call it the Nameless Cwm?

The Welsh language is in resurgence as far as I'm aware. I really don't think they need to worry about this one.

For every established winter route there was once a first ascensionist , the same could be claimed about the brave souls that thrashed their way up the embankment routes at millstone armed with axes crampons and a can do attitude.

a lot of the routes being mentioned are short walk in popular rock routs so would be best left this way for future generations. North Wales when in winter condition has plenty to go at without actively looking at rock  routes. 

That should have said "how many Welsh people even know..."

It's also still called that on the OS 1:25,000 map along with Cwm Cneifion so either is reasonable to use.

Not 'reasonble' really though is it.

The Cwm has a name, has had for hundreds of years.

Giving it a poor english translation would be bad enough but just labelling it "nameless Cwm" is pretty much on a par with marking a map "here be dragons". 

The starlings start their murmerations and like clockwork the ethics arguments begin.

Same every year.

All too soon winter will be over and the abseil chain anger will be reignited, while we wait for the chicks to fledge and the bird bans lifted. 

Indeed but if the ethics at the time were laxer than they are now, then we shouldn’t judge those winter ascents by todays standards. I’m not suggesting we relax todays attitudes to those of the past by any stretch of the imagination and would be highly favourable of keeping rock routes as dry rock routes only. The only remaining question is whether to stop winter ascents of those established on rock routes.. which I am of no fixed opinion on. 

What's not reasonable?

I don't know why the Cwm has acquired the alternative title of 'nameless', it would be interesting to find out.

Anyway, my point is not that we should call it the Nameless Cwm, I would normally call it Cwm Cneifion myself. Rather that we shouldn't be so keen to leap down people's throats when they use a name that they could reasonably consider to be acceptable since it appears on OS maps.

And I don't think the odd example such as this or the Black Ladders etc poses any real threat to the Welsh language which as I pointed out above, is undergoing a strong resurgence anyway.

You're trying to claim Embankment 2 (VS 4c) and Engineer's Slabs (VI 7) are the same? 🤨

These are established routes.

This is what I was referring to - see the very last page. A list of crags or bits of crags where winter routes aren’t supposed to be done. https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=1259

Why is it's name the same as a band?

It's to do with what he does when he gets knocked down by avalanches.

There are quality ice rotes in Wales, for example Flanders, Devils Appendix, Central Icefall Direct, though few in number, as good as equivalent Scottish routes. But for anyone in England, the Alps is nearer and more reliable, with far better routes, compared to getting soaked and hanging around in Fort William drinking shit beer.

Guffaw! Nice one!

Well that's clearly bollocks for most from the Midlands north, and I'm not sure if it's actually true for many in the south, short of if you live in spitting distance of Dover docks.

The 1970s called, they want their out of date and vaguely prejudicial attitudes back please.

I live in the Peak. Morning flight from E Mids or Manchester. Pick up my gear and skiing by 11am. Weather usually guaranteed. 
I used to go to Scotland and did a lot of the classic gully and face routes, and on one occasion with Al Rouse almost made the first ascent of Guerdon grooves, but a late hangover start benighted us. We spent an equal time hanging around. Gave up in the end. Just as an aside I know of many guides who complained about having to climb in Scotland for an assessment when they’ve absolutely no intention of ever working there. But thats the old west coast and Kingussie  mafia for you.

You said nearer, not quicker to get to. Presumably if you're happy to fly to Glasgow or Inverness you could be in Highlands pretty quickly as well, but that's not the same as being nearer anyway. 

Oh the irony of extolling the virtues of flying to a far off ice climbing destination as conditions at the nearby ones are pants these days.

Awesumz

I wouldn't worry about it. Just go climbing if the weather suits you. We'll never gte enough snow to make it any fun anyway nowadays.

I do remember a nice day on Tryfan. Bonfire night 1985. Waist deep snow way before we got to the bottom of the East face routes. Did a hybrid of everything at the mid to north end. Crossed north gully several times if my dodgy memory serves me even slightly well. Expect some one here will tell me we were naughty doing Moonlight Flit in early 86 as well. Those poor plants.

I would say it's a judgement call. And the judgement should be based on how much damage you might cause rather than how much you want to climb it. If it looks like there's a reasonably high chance of you knackering up decent quality summer rock, then don't do it. If you might knacker up a chossy pile of earth and stones, then go ahead.

Isn't it 'Welsh'? I agree mate, pec has a point, yes, I'll say it...there are too many biggots here, the originator has had an unjustifiably hard time, particularly from the biggest biggot of them all who can't get hi grammar right. Yes C Twitter, its you mate, grow up. 

Hi Will,

I'm sorry about some of the stupid comments made here, particularly by Mr/Mrs/Ms/They or whatever it calls itself who gave you a rather hard time. 

I was a mountaineering instructor in Scotland, Wales, England, Alps, Canada  etc for many years and I agree with your approach to ethics in Wales. You have a good and valid point by bringing up your ethics question. If I was in Wales and I didn't have a guide book and saw a particularly good line that I fancied climbing, I'd bloody well climb it! I've done it many times, just like they did in the 'old days', no guide book, no biggot shouting at me from an adjacent climb from below that I should 'get off it' as its a summer route.

The vast majority of people don't venture onto unknown territory, but use guide books and forums like this in order to gain info on routes, I'm included in that bunch. However, adventure is what you make of any route whether you are familiar with it or not, whether you have a guide book or not, in my opinion, if you see a good winter route, go and climb it be it in Wales, Scotland, England, Ireland or anywhere. There is no rule anywhere in this world that says where you can or cannot climb, unless it's unlawful to do so. Yes, you might incur the wrath of conservationists or 'access' police such as the BMC, so don't lose that spirit of adventure, just get out there and do it! 

Your's

UK winter climbing, English and Welsh in particular, is so marginal anyway, your laissez-faire approach seems pretty ridiculously selfish. It's not "access policing" by the BMC to ask people not to climb on certain gullies above Red Tarn or on the Trinity Face if they're not fully frozen, because of super rare flora. It's just accepting we don't have an unending right to do exactly what we always want and try to rub along with others who have some sort of interest or stake in the places we love.

Hard to believe, but this wasn't the standout worst part of your post!

What an ignorant post, particularly for someone who claims to be a guide.