Sad news on The Ben

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 Trangia 02 Jan 2019
In reply to gilmour_789:

Very sad indeed, and a dreadful start to the New Year. The second fatal accident on Ben Nevis in recent days. Condolences to her family and friends.

PaulScramble 02 Jan 2019
In reply to gilmour_789:

She fell from the ledge route which is the 'easiest' route up the north face. This suggests they were beginners. I turned around on the ledge route last year, and this death has convinced me to get a guide for my first north face climbs.

Post edited at 15:35
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 planetmarshall 02 Jan 2019
In reply to PaulScramble:

> She fell from the ledge route which is the 'easiest' route up the north face. This suggests they were beginners. 

While it's always tempting to speculate, I think it's premature without being in possession of the facts.

Over the years, I've lost a few friends and climbing partners in the mountains in Scotland, none of them beginners. Accidents will happen, and the mountain doesn't care about your qualifications or experience.

Stay safe out there.

 

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 DaveHK 02 Jan 2019
In reply to planetmarshall:

> While it's always tempting to speculate, I think it's premature without being in possession of the facts.

One of the reports said the group had missed the gully which takes you back up left and ended up on much steeper ground. Quite an easy mistake to make, I did the same in summer conditions and very quickly found myself on difficult terrain.

 

Removed User 02 Jan 2019
In reply to gilmour_789:

from the reports I have read, it seems to suggest the fall was somewhere on the CMD arete? In any case, dreadful news.

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 tehmarks 02 Jan 2019
In reply to PaulScramble:

A startlingly insensitive post. No one is immune from the hazards of mountaineering - not beginners, not 'experts', on hard terrain or easy terrain. Not even the guide who will be guiding you up your first north face routes.

My deepest condolences to all those involved and affected.

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 DaveHK 02 Jan 2019
In reply to Removed Userena sharples:

> from the reports I have read, it seems to suggest the fall was somewhere on the CMD arete?

It was Carn Dearg as opposed to Carn Mor Dearg.

 

 mrphilipoldham 02 Jan 2019
In reply to Removed Userena sharples:

The Mail Online have it as 'Ridge Route'....

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

The BBC link at the top of this thread says 'John Stevenson, from Lochaber Mountain Rescue Team, said that in the latest incident, the woman and her friends had been climbing what is known as the "ledge route".'

 Sophie G. 02 Jan 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I heard John saying on Radio Scotland news this evening that the conditions are pretty dangerous just now. He's not kidding. We were climbing on Cairn Toul and Angel's Peak today, and there's not a lot of snow- or ice-cover, but there is a lot of treacherous verglas, e.g. on paths, and the snow-patches are rock-hard and need care and concentration where they're exposed. 

It's easy to be lured into thinking that because there's next to no snow, it can't be serious out there. Don't be fooled. A lot of it is very serious indeed.

Take care out there, people.

 

 

Post edited at 23:46
 Purple 03 Jan 2019
In reply to PaulScramble:

You begin with a factual inaccuracy, and continue with an unhelpful assumption.

Pipe down, have a look at the like/dislike ratio and try to work out why it might be so.

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 DaveHK 03 Jan 2019
In reply to Purple:

> You begin with a factual inaccuracy, and continue with an unhelpful assumption.

> Pipe down, have a look at the like/dislike ratio and try to work out why it might be so.

However, engaging a guide when you're unsure of your own abilities is an excellent idea.

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 Purple 03 Jan 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

Agreed. 

 Chris_Mellor 04 Jan 2019
In reply to tehmarks:

You wrote; "A startlingly insensitive post." In my view it's not. It's common sense speculation that could lead to safety improvements - like always stayed roped and attached to the rock via a belay. A 500 foot fall suggests there may have been a mistake in this area.

You say: "No one is immune from the hazards of mountaineering." Indeed, that's why we have ropes and belays. etc.  Cut teh-mark some slack please.

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 Cog 04 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I thought Purple’s post was unnecessary. 

Paul King’s profile states he has been climbing for less than a year, and he had already been corrected twice.

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 Stichtplate 04 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Such speculation, based on bugger all knowledge of circumstances, is best conducted as idle speculation, unattached to a very real and very recent fatality.

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 David Rose 04 Jan 2019
In reply to gilmour_789:

Until more facts are known, it would be wise not to comment on the circumstances of this very sad accident. But attacking an inexperienced climber who sensibly declares he will  seek professional guidance in light of it is uncalled for, too. Scotland is a serious arena. Both it and those who seek adventure there deserve respect.

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 Michael Gordon 05 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

> It's common sense speculation that could lead to safety improvements - like always stayed roped and attached to the rock via a belay. A 500 foot fall suggests there may have been a mistake in this area.> 

Climbers generally do not forget to put the rope on. It seems fairly obvious that they decided not to rope up, the same decision most of us make often when tackling easier routes in the mountains. So most likely a choice rather than a mistake, and I'm not sure what one can really learn from that. We've all been on dodgy ground where we wished we had the rope on, but the trouble is that it's not always obvious that it's going to be tricky (otherwise the rope would be on, obviously!). The possibility of going off route has been mentioned above and I've made a mental note regarding this particular route (even though I've been on it before).

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 tehmarks 05 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

It's startlingly insensitive because this thread is not about him. A spurious conclusion that the party were clueless beginners, followed by some inane crap about how he intends on tackling the same face. Not a single word of compassion. Not a single ounce of understanding.

To be blunt, who gives a 'ck? It's not the place.

Post edited at 09:57
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 Patrick Roman 05 Jan 2019

As mentioned in the above post, it’s easy to forget sometimes that a young person lost their life. I can only imagine the ideals and plans she had for the year ahead. My thoughts are also very much with her three companions. I hope you can support each other after what must have been a horrific experience. It does take time.

 

Regarding the route, I first did it in 2003 when I led a work colleague up it. We were roped initially but once on the upper section we unroped. It was pointed out earlier that the gully heading up left after the ramp was maybe missed. This is a really easy thing to do especially in poor visibility (reports indicate visibility was poor at the time of the accident). In 2003, before taking that gully I walked ahead to double check and very quickly the ground falls away. The steep walls of Carn Dearg Buttress are below. Of course it was easier for me because both weather and conditions were good, and really all I had to do was follow the line of snow (which the party on New Year’s Day didn’t have).

 

Since then, I’ve used Ledge Route as a descent route maybe half a dozen times and always unroped. I’ve always done it in good visibility and snow conditions, which helps enormously. I hope that’s of some use to anyone planning to do it. Guidebook descriptions go into more detail about what to look out for (either in ascent or descent) so make sure you have them with you too.

 fred99 05 Jan 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Climbers generally do not forget to put the rope on. It seems fairly obvious that they decided not to rope up, the same decision most of us make often when tackling easier routes in the mountains. So most likely a choice rather than a mistake, and I'm not sure what one can really learn from that. We've all been on dodgy ground where we wished we had the rope on, but the trouble is that it's not always obvious that it's going to be tricky (otherwise the rope would be on, obviously!). ...

For experienced and "senior" climbers this is all very well. However on 2 separate occasions many years ago I found myself "up sh1t creek" when the other persons I was with, who were more experienced in the terrain, derided my (rather worried) requests to have a rope put on because it was "easy" (at least for them).

In one case I became crag-fast above a 300 foot drop, and one of them had to reverse the traverse on what he then agreed had become very dodgy snow to rope me up, in the other I refused to continue the scramble and exited down a gully alone. Thankfully in both cases I survived, but it showed me the value of always listening to the weakest members of the party.

It is all very well for beginners to do whatever they are told by the more experienced members of their party, but this shouldn't be allowed to extend so far as to force them to risk their lives by being un-roped just because "X" who has climbed umpteen grades harder feels it to be too easy and beneath them to put a rope on. Remember we were all that worried newbie once.

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 Michael Gordon 05 Jan 2019
In reply to fred99:

I agree. No-one should feel ashamed to request a rope on a route and if a request is made, the other member(s) of the party should do what they can to assist without complaint. 

 Euge 07 Jan 2019
In reply to fred99:

But we don't know that is what happened here!

Euge

 fred99 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Euge:

I didn't say it was.

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