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Hi Norrie
Just an interesting point ... you may have done all the hardest routes on the Ben in winter (have you?) but I have done the longest (upward going) route (and a pretty long downward one too - and surviving it). Must be the longest one in Scotland....and I walked across the river in Glen Nevis in crampons (and I'm not Jesus) to get to it. Yup! I soloed a complete winter ascent of Surgeons Gully in the Cold Old Days. I was followed for a while by an American Larry Ware that I did Smiths on Meggy with a few days before and some friend of his but they bagged out. IF that was the only winter ascent it will be the ONLY winter ascent ... at least until the next ice-age arrives!!!
Cheers from the tropics
Gordon
PS it had some nice little ice pitches in it and a fair bit of snow plod!!
Just an interesting point ... you may have done all the hardest routes on the Ben in winter (have you?) but I have done the longest (upward going) route (and a pretty long downward one too - and surviving it). Must be the longest one in Scotland....and I walked across the river in Glen Nevis in crampons (and I'm not Jesus) to get to it. Yup! I soloed a complete winter ascent of Surgeons Gully in the Cold Old Days. I was followed for a while by an American Larry Ware that I did Smiths on Meggy with a few days before and some friend of his but they bagged out. IF that was the only winter ascent it will be the ONLY winter ascent ... at least until the next ice-age arrives!!!
Cheers from the tropics
Gordon
PS it had some nice little ice pitches in it and a fair bit of snow plod!!
In reply to Colin Moody: I think in about 1976. About grade III for those days but now, who knows 'coz I don't understand all these roman numerals and letters and numbers. Maybe XV/3, 1334 mtrs (4000 odd feet) - the XV would be for length and the unlikelihood of actually finding any ice to climb...
In reply to Gordon Smith:
So you basically walked from Fort William up to the corrie, then climbed a line on the Face?
So you basically walked from Fort William up to the corrie, then climbed a line on the Face?
In reply to Gordon Smith: an ascent in the 90's did most of it, but not the whole thing
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Interesting, it's in the guide as grade V from 1996.
> (In reply to Colin Moody) I think in about 1976. About grade III for those days but now, who knows 'coz I don't understand all these roman numerals and letters and numbers
Interesting, it's in the guide as grade V from 1996.
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Hey Gordon didn't you do the first ascent of Pointless? any ripping yarns, gripping or total path.
Hey Gordon didn't you do the first ascent of Pointless? any ripping yarns, gripping or total path.
In reply to Colin Moody: Actually I don't remember much about it (more than thirty years ago)... just that it had ice pitches and lots of powder snow between them - and went on and on. Took me a few hours on my tod. Did the 1996 folk walk across the river? That was the amazing part!! Larry Ware and his buddy gave up at the first ice pitch, I think.
In reply to Alex Roddie: I suppose you could say that ... but the face was the face towards Glen Nevis and the line was a gully that started near the river and ended near the top.
In reply to Alex Roddie: Google the name, It's not where you think it is. Quite a climb, of which very very few have completed the whole line.
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Hard winter routes are only transient, but long routes are not. Arthur Paul and myself did Minus One Buttress, which was the first Grade VII on Ben Nevis, there are harder routes now.
You have certainly done the longest winter route on the Ben, if not in Scotland. In the current Guidebook it states that on the First Ascent in 1996, "Above the deer track, three further pitches were climbed up the virgin central branch, but the party abseiled off in the dark below a very steep icefall". Yes, you went from the bottom to the top, 20 years before the First Ascent, strange. If you had not finished the route and were a Mountain Guide and drove up the Glen in a Transit Van covered in Logos and Adverts instead of walking from Fort William, you would get the recognition of the First Ascent.
You still hold the longest winter route done on Ben Nevis, so well done.
> Hi Norrie
> Just an interesting point ... you may have done all the hardest routes on the Ben in winter (have you?) but I have done the longest (upward going) route (and a pretty long downward one too - and surviving it). Must be the longest one in Scotland....and I walked across the river in Glen Nevis in crampons (and I'm not Jesus) to get to it. Yup! I soloed a complete winter ascent of Surgeons Gully in the Cold Old Days.
> Just an interesting point ... you may have done all the hardest routes on the Ben in winter (have you?) but I have done the longest (upward going) route (and a pretty long downward one too - and surviving it). Must be the longest one in Scotland....and I walked across the river in Glen Nevis in crampons (and I'm not Jesus) to get to it. Yup! I soloed a complete winter ascent of Surgeons Gully in the Cold Old Days.
Hard winter routes are only transient, but long routes are not. Arthur Paul and myself did Minus One Buttress, which was the first Grade VII on Ben Nevis, there are harder routes now.
You have certainly done the longest winter route on the Ben, if not in Scotland. In the current Guidebook it states that on the First Ascent in 1996, "Above the deer track, three further pitches were climbed up the virgin central branch, but the party abseiled off in the dark below a very steep icefall". Yes, you went from the bottom to the top, 20 years before the First Ascent, strange. If you had not finished the route and were a Mountain Guide and drove up the Glen in a Transit Van covered in Logos and Adverts instead of walking from Fort William, you would get the recognition of the First Ascent.
You still hold the longest winter route done on Ben Nevis, so well done.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
A valuable lesson for us all.
:oD
> If you had not finished the route and were a Mountain Guide and drove up the Glen in a Transit Van covered in Logos and Adverts instead of walking from Fort William, you would get the recognition of the First Ascent.
A valuable lesson for us all.
:oD
In reply to Gordon Smith:
I'm not going to ask!
I can send you his e-mail address if you want to ask him.
> (In reply to Colin Moody) Did the 1996 folk walk across the river? That was the amazing part!!
I'm not going to ask!
I can send you his e-mail address if you want to ask him.
In reply to Norrie Muir: F*cking hell,
Did Norrie Muir just congratulate someone?!!!!!!
This place has lost the plot.
Did Norrie Muir just congratulate someone?!!!!!!
This place has lost the plot.
In reply to Merlin:
I have never known Norrie not appreciate genuine achievement. The problem is - there's not an awful lot of genuine achievement on UKC!
Mick
I have never known Norrie not appreciate genuine achievement. The problem is - there's not an awful lot of genuine achievement on UKC!
Mick
In reply to Norrie Muir: Pity I didn't take it very seriously. I suspect it may have had a lot of pitches blanked out or ramped up with snow, especially higher up. The one thing I vaguely remember is using a tree for aid some way up ... bridging with one leg on ice and one leg on the tree. Sometimes, especially when gibbering in a typhoon in the Pacific, with waves crashing over my wee boat and the mast in the water, I miss the fun of it all!!!
Gordon
Gordon
In reply to Colin Moody: Hi Colin ... just want to use you to bring up a point or two that bother me ... after 30 years of not thinking about winter climbing, and being an old fogey, and being stuck in the tropics I wonder about all the grading that is done in Scottish Winter Climbing. Personally, I would vote always for the old Jimmy Marshall (era) grading system which only really considered the seriousness of a climb and weighted technical difficulty relatively lightly ... Tower Ridge is a fairly serious undertaking, not easy to escape from but not really very hard at grade 3. The grading system left the route itself as more of an 'unknown' ... closer to the feel of a first ascent. Also, how can a route that is less than, say, 500' or so be anything more than a grade IV? Surgeons Gully, however hard the ice falls might be and however long the climb, is not a serious undertaking ... you can walk off it at any point. I would worry that the new grading system encourages people (more than the old system) to climb routes for the grade and not for the route. I've read posts with Norrie advising folk that 'when they're ready to climb a grade VII they won't need advice as to which one to climb ...which is excellent advice - 'I climbed No2 gully and Castle Ridge last year. What grade VII's would be good for me to aim at this year?' (NOTE: overexagerated a little!). Also, I've climbed the Orion Direct when it was piss easy, and when it was pretty hard ... but it's always a serious climb - what do average conditions mean (especially when a route has had only one or two ascents). It seems to me that all this grading stuff and torquing etc (what is the difference between pulling up on a pick jammed in a crack and a Moac (or a knot) jammed in a crack?) - just really serves the equipment manufacturers well!! And what is Dry Tooling, pray?
Gordon (the old fart) Smith
I was once a young lad.
Gordon (the old fart) Smith
I was once a young lad.
In reply to Conquistador of the usless: Dear Mr Conquistador, I have no idea what those words mean!!! Yes, I did Pointless with the Kiwi Nick Banks. I'm a bit confused about it, though, as the picture I saw from Simon Richardson's article of Victor leading on it did not ring a bell. Neither did all this horror about thinly iced slabs ... the second pitch, (after a short ice pitch just left of the start of the Point) I seem to remember, WAS an ice glazed slab with patches of thicker ice and snow up to an overhang. The main pitch, however, threaded round an overhang and up steep mixed ground into a memorable corner ... that I had a heck of a time getting out of up the right wall! Then the rest blurs into standard winter face climbing up grooves and ribs to the crest. I remember it as being a very good mixed route with spectacular positions and Andy Slater (soloing in the Point down below) said it looked very dramatic. Few days later did Galactic HitchHiker (Con's route) with Andy Slater ... we were trying to bag that one as well but Con pipped us - as it should have been - Hitchhiker WAS his route.
Gordon
Gordon
In reply to nz Cragrat: I could, if I could be bothered ... Where is Nick now anyway ... my mum lives in NZ and said a few years ago that he had a shop near the Hermitage at Mt Cook. Stellar chap!! Hardy Kiwi!!
Gordon
Gordon
In reply to Gordon Smith:
A few years after your time, but not that long, most of the so called hard Ben routes were soloed (85-86_) ,and 5-6 of them a day.Modern kit,fit people,and attitude.At the time you still did not fall on ice.Nobody was soloing Cairngorm 4's at the time( Savage Slit for ex ).It would seem that modern gradings at last have got up to speed with this.Enough said...
A few years after your time, but not that long, most of the so called hard Ben routes were soloed (85-86_) ,and 5-6 of them a day.Modern kit,fit people,and attitude.At the time you still did not fall on ice.Nobody was soloing Cairngorm 4's at the time( Savage Slit for ex ).It would seem that modern gradings at last have got up to speed with this.Enough said...
In reply to iceox: Well, I suppose we were soft and flabby wimps in the early/mid 70's with poor attitudes. Mind you soloing Zero and the Point in a morning, or even Hadrian's Direct, Green, Comb, and Comb Gully Buttress in a morning is not too unfit or a sign of poor attitude??? With Terrors and Salewa Adjustables ...
Gordon in his dotage
Gordon in his dotage
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Nick has not been in NZ since the mid 80's when I knew him and he had a shop and guiding business with Russel Brice and Gary Ball. He is still (I think ) at Plas y B where he has been for years (correct info someone please if I am wrong)
Nick has not been in NZ since the mid 80's when I knew him and he had a shop and guiding business with Russel Brice and Gary Ball. He is still (I think ) at Plas y B where he has been for years (correct info someone please if I am wrong)
In reply to Gordon Smith:
I'm not the one to ask I gave up winter climbing when folk were still using the old grades.
I'm not the one to ask I gave up winter climbing when folk were still using the old grades.
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Simon Richardson writes in his Scottish winter climbing article in this year's Alpine Journal, under the section "The Development of Torquing" that you "hinted at the next step [ie torquing etc] with climbs like Route II Direct".
Are you denying any involvement in these capers!?
> It seems to me that all this grading stuff and torquing etc (what is the difference between pulling up on a pick jammed in a crack and a Moac (or a knot) jammed in a crack?) - just really serves the equipment manufacturers well!! And what is Dry Tooling, pray?
Simon Richardson writes in his Scottish winter climbing article in this year's Alpine Journal, under the section "The Development of Torquing" that you "hinted at the next step [ie torquing etc] with climbs like Route II Direct".
Are you denying any involvement in these capers!?
In reply to iceox:
Enough said, aye, right. Most of these “so called hard Ben routes” were over graded by self-rated people who had not done the routes.
Nobody that you knew “was soloing Cairngorm 4’s”, well there were plenty soloing them
Aye, grade inflation is a great way to get modern.
> (In reply to Gordon Smith)
>
> A few years after your time, but not that long, most of the so called hard Ben routes were soloed (85-86_) ,and 5-6 of them a day.Modern kit,fit people,and attitude.At the time you still did not fall on ice.Nobody was soloing Cairngorm 4's at the time( Savage Slit for ex ).It would seem that modern gradings at last have got up to speed with this.Enough said...
>
> A few years after your time, but not that long, most of the so called hard Ben routes were soloed (85-86_) ,and 5-6 of them a day.Modern kit,fit people,and attitude.At the time you still did not fall on ice.Nobody was soloing Cairngorm 4's at the time( Savage Slit for ex ).It would seem that modern gradings at last have got up to speed with this.Enough said...
Enough said, aye, right. Most of these “so called hard Ben routes” were over graded by self-rated people who had not done the routes.
Nobody that you knew “was soloing Cairngorm 4’s”, well there were plenty soloing them
Aye, grade inflation is a great way to get modern.
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Galactic Hitchhiker - aaah, brings back memories for me too. Only 20 years ago though.
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=57964
And what is Dry Tooling, pray?
A perverted form of ice climbing without any ice.
Galactic Hitchhiker - aaah, brings back memories for me too. Only 20 years ago though.
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/images/dbpage.php?id=57964
And what is Dry Tooling, pray?
A perverted form of ice climbing without any ice.
In reply to Gordon Smith:
hardest, longest, BAH!
tell me this:
who's thickest?
wait.....don't answer that.
hardest, longest, BAH!
tell me this:
who's thickest?
wait.....don't answer that.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Well played!
To the OP: forgive my comment earlier, I had mental images of a 'route' consisting of little more than a walk up to the corrie, then a new ascent on the face. Sounds like a pretty epic day ... I wonder if the route will ever be possible in future? Good effort!
Well played!
To the OP: forgive my comment earlier, I had mental images of a 'route' consisting of little more than a walk up to the corrie, then a new ascent on the face. Sounds like a pretty epic day ... I wonder if the route will ever be possible in future? Good effort!
In reply to Mystery Toad:
Dear Toad
This a winter climbing topic, could you please get back to the Chatroom Forum where you belong.
Norrie
Dear Toad
This a winter climbing topic, could you please get back to the Chatroom Forum where you belong.
Norrie
In reply to Glen: Torqueing on RouteII???? We didn't torque in those days ... we dangled our terrors from their wee slings and spat on our Dachsteins and let them freeze to the rocks
Gordon
Gordon
In reply to Norrie Muir: Aye - Didn't Tom Patey solo all the 'Gorms grade 4s when they were new routes?
Gordon
Gordon
In reply to iceox: re Larry Ware. Yes ... he came to Scotland for a holiday
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Who gives a flying f*ck you egotistical prat. Why are you posting it on a public forum and not just sending him an email if it's that important to you that he knows you did the longest. You people really do grind my gears!
Who gives a flying f*ck you egotistical prat. Why are you posting it on a public forum and not just sending him an email if it's that important to you that he knows you did the longest. You people really do grind my gears!
2
In reply to Mike Hartley:
If he was egotistical he would have recorded the route 30 years ago.
Some of us are interested.
If he was egotistical he would have recorded the route 30 years ago.
Some of us are interested.
In reply to Mike Hartley: You do have a sense of humour, don't you! I was just taking some gentle piss out of Norrie. Climb down off your thumb and have a laugh!
Gordon, the egotistical old dodderer
Gordon, the egotistical old dodderer
In reply to Mick Ward: Hi Mike. Thanks but folk seem not to be taking this thread the way it was intended ... I only climbed the thing as a novelty and haven't thought about it for 30 years. I couldn't resist taking a bit of piss out of Norrie with the double entendre. The only 'wow' thing about it all was the fact that I walked across the river Nevis (which was completely frozen at just above sea level!!) in crampons. Has anyone else done this recently?
Gordon (my wife says size doesn't matter).
Gordon (my wife says size doesn't matter).
In reply to Mike Hartley:
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
An actual climbing thread on UKC and it gets slated !!!
But then I suppose it is not too representitive of the usual UKC postings.
Oh dear Mike.
> (In reply to Gordon Smith)
>
> Who gives a flying f*ck you egotistical prat. Why are you posting it on a public forum and not just sending him an email if it's that important to you that he knows you did the longest. You people really do grind my gears!
>
> Who gives a flying f*ck you egotistical prat. Why are you posting it on a public forum and not just sending him an email if it's that important to you that he knows you did the longest. You people really do grind my gears!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
An actual climbing thread on UKC and it gets slated !!!
But then I suppose it is not too representitive of the usual UKC postings.
Oh dear Mike.
In reply to Gordon Smith: the grading system had to change, getting totally spanked by old grade IV's and finding old grade V's as easy as grade III's doesnt make sense to me... (i was fortunate/unfortunate to have started when the old system was still in use)
the length of a route is irrelevant in the new system, modern protection makes a lot of routes less serious eg screws and hooks but the new system does take into account whether a route is serious.
ive discussed the new system a lot with norrie and i think he understands it now, but I think it still has problems as it is more open to misnterpretation by first ascentionists particularly at the harder end of the spectrum
the length of a route is irrelevant in the new system, modern protection makes a lot of routes less serious eg screws and hooks but the new system does take into account whether a route is serious.
ive discussed the new system a lot with norrie and i think he understands it now, but I think it still has problems as it is more open to misnterpretation by first ascentionists particularly at the harder end of the spectrum
In reply to Gordon Smith:
what is the difference between pulling up on a pick jammed in a crack and a Moac jammed in a crack?
Moacs were harder to get out. They didn't have a proper handle on them either.
(Note for 21st century climbers: Moacs were wedge-shaped pieces of metal slung with a length of rope. They were extensively used as protection in the 1970s/early 80s before the advent of decent gear. Finding a "bomber Moac" was considered a salvatory moment on a Scottish winter climb.)
what is the difference between pulling up on a pick jammed in a crack and a Moac jammed in a crack?
Moacs were harder to get out. They didn't have a proper handle on them either.
(Note for 21st century climbers: Moacs were wedge-shaped pieces of metal slung with a length of rope. They were extensively used as protection in the 1970s/early 80s before the advent of decent gear. Finding a "bomber Moac" was considered a salvatory moment on a Scottish winter climb.)
In reply to Erik B: Thanks for the mini explanation.
In reply to Neil Brodie:
Is that from your experience? They were only hard to get out for the unskilled. All my MOACs and other hex's were salvaged from routes.
It was fun doing the routes rather than waiting for improvement in gear to come about. Mind you, we should have waited until Guides/Instructors had learned how to use modern gear before we climbed.
>
> Moacs were harder to get out.
> Moacs were harder to get out.
Is that from your experience? They were only hard to get out for the unskilled. All my MOACs and other hex's were salvaged from routes.
It was fun doing the routes rather than waiting for improvement in gear to come about. Mind you, we should have waited until Guides/Instructors had learned how to use modern gear before we climbed.
(In reply to Mystery Toad)
CONGRATULATIONS Mr Toad
You have just won UKC's 'Youve been flamed by Norrie t shirt"
> tell me this
> who's thickest?
> who's thickest?
> Norrie Muir
> You.
> You.
CONGRATULATIONS Mr Toad
You have just won UKC's 'Youve been flamed by Norrie t shirt"
In reply to Neil Brodie: I suppose that MOACS resulted in a lot more rock damage ... they cost money and a True Scotsman would go to great lengths to get their (or, just as important, other people's) MOACS out. I remember a MOAC I found on ......
Gordon Smith (A True Scotsman from Calcutta just like Robin Smith [who probably never used a MOAC]).
Gordon Smith (A True Scotsman from Calcutta just like Robin Smith [who probably never used a MOAC]).
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Great to hear about Surgeons. We were stayin @ Kate's caravans when we heard a rumour you had soloed it (1977/8?). Unusually cold period, having to leave the taps running so they did not freeze up. I remember Dirty Alex turning up to partner up with Blonde Nick. It was the original grunge scene, with many of DHSS sponsored climbers.
Great to hear about Surgeons. We were stayin @ Kate's caravans when we heard a rumour you had soloed it (1977/8?). Unusually cold period, having to leave the taps running so they did not freeze up. I remember Dirty Alex turning up to partner up with Blonde Nick. It was the original grunge scene, with many of DHSS sponsored climbers.
In reply to Norrie Muir: Dear Norrie ... a wedge is geometrically distinct from a hexagon. Your old domine will be shuddering in his grave.
Gordon
Gordon
In reply to parafinn: Jings, WHY, Davey??? I just wanted the double entendre to throw at Norrie!!!
Gordon
Gordon
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Really. Here was me thinking I was using a hex when splitting wood, when I should have been using a wedge.
> (In reply to Norrie Muir) Dear Norrie ... a wedge is geometrically distinct from a hexagon.
Really. Here was me thinking I was using a hex when splitting wood, when I should have been using a wedge.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Read carefully. I'll use capitals to help.
Moacs were HARDER to get out.
Off course some useless bastards get their picks stuck in cracks!
Read carefully. I'll use capitals to help.
Moacs were HARDER to get out.
Off course some useless bastards get their picks stuck in cracks!
In reply to Alex Roddie: I'm new to this internet stuff (I live in the jungle) ... what is an OP? If it's an acronym for Old Person I'll, I'll hit you with my walking stick!
Gordon
Gordon
In reply to Neil Brodie:
Are ‘Moacs’ the same as a MOAC?
Are you saying, a badly placed MOAC is harder to get out than a modern badly placed bit of gear? Well, I’ll take your word for that, as we never left gear in, unless it was for retreating from a route.
Do you leave behind much gear?
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
>
> Read carefully. I'll use capitals to help.
>
> Moacs were HARDER to get out.
>
> Read carefully. I'll use capitals to help.
>
> Moacs were HARDER to get out.
Are ‘Moacs’ the same as a MOAC?
Are you saying, a badly placed MOAC is harder to get out than a modern badly placed bit of gear? Well, I’ll take your word for that, as we never left gear in, unless it was for retreating from a route.
Do you leave behind much gear?
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Nope, stands for Original Post =)
Nope, stands for Original Post =)
In reply to Neil Brodie:
I've heard some people can't get their picks in cracks because the cracks are iced up.
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
>
> Off course some useless bastards get their picks stuck in cracks!
>
> Off course some useless bastards get their picks stuck in cracks!
I've heard some people can't get their picks in cracks because the cracks are iced up.
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Calm down and take your prozac, OP merely means original poster.
If in doubt, use this to make a rough guess;
http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/op
Calm down and take your prozac, OP merely means original poster.
If in doubt, use this to make a rough guess;
http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/op
In reply to Neil Brodie:
"Moacs were harder to get out. They didn't have a proper handle on them either."
At the end of the day for me Scottish winter is about using your arms / tools to get up the route, as opposed to your harness. As soon as you weight your harness, you're cheating.
Why not try a wee experiment. ditch your tools, and jump on a nice grade VII mixed route with nothing but a pair of Moacs. Remember you're not allowed to weight your harness.
"Moacs were harder to get out. They didn't have a proper handle on them either."
At the end of the day for me Scottish winter is about using your arms / tools to get up the route, as opposed to your harness. As soon as you weight your harness, you're cheating.
Why not try a wee experiment. ditch your tools, and jump on a nice grade VII mixed route with nothing but a pair of Moacs. Remember you're not allowed to weight your harness.
In reply to Gordon Smith: This has been one of the most interesting threads on here for a long time, but it's starting to descend into the usual rambling abusive shite. Get out while you can Gordon.
In reply to aln:
Aln fully agree, but Gordon as he has proved over the years is well capable of looking after himself.
After all Gordon (the OP!) started with a double entendre.
yours from a STBOP (Soon To Be Old Person)
> This has been one of the most interesting threads on here for a long time, but it's starting to descend into the usual rambling abusive shite. Get out while you can Gordon.
Aln fully agree, but Gordon as he has proved over the years is well capable of looking after himself.
After all Gordon (the OP!) started with a double entendre.
yours from a STBOP (Soon To Be Old Person)
In reply to parafinn: Parafinn - are you calling me an Old Person!! I really do wonder about the ethics of modern Scottish Winter Climbing, and the motivation. It seems that someone (not you!!), at least, is worried about Scotland becoming a backwater, and that ethics in Scotland should just be like on the continent so that the routes here can be just as hard as there...YUCK!! Sounds like you need bolts on Eagle Ridge!! I worry that pulling up on a MOAC jammed in a crack is aid and pulling up on a pick jammed in a crack is not aid ... I suppose that many of the hardest new routes would be largely aid climbs and folk don't like that idea??? The 'hanging from the harness' rationale is garbage! If I pull up on a MOAC using my hand, and then clip into it as pro without hanging on it using my harness - that is aid. If I pull up on a torqued axe before clipping into pro, that is NOT aid??? Hmmmm! It seems to me that ice axes should be used in snow or ice (or frozen turf). Axes can be holstered so that rock moves can be climbed using rock climbing techniques - Patey I think must have brushed a lot of snow off rock holds in his day ... it seems to me, but then I'm an OP.
Happy climbing this winter ... I am envious out here in the steamy jungle.
Gordon
Happy climbing this winter ... I am envious out here in the steamy jungle.
Gordon
In reply to Wry Gob: Hi Wry - that's my point in a nutshell ... using MOACS is aid whether you weight your harness or not, isn't it? Ice axes should be used in snow or ice (or frozen turf by tradition) and not in cracks jammed in the rock. Ice axes can be holstered and rock moves treated as rock climbing moves (if necessary brushing snow off holds). After all, I bet you take weight on your wrist loops??
Happy climbing this winter - I will be so jealous, sitting out here in the jungle if I read about you having wintery weather and doing hot (or cold) routes!!
Gordon
Happy climbing this winter - I will be so jealous, sitting out here in the jungle if I read about you having wintery weather and doing hot (or cold) routes!!
Gordon
In reply to Gordon Smith:
Does it make it any better leashless?
An interesting question you are putting across, yet I tend to disagree with your idea, unless I misunderstood. What does MOACs stand for again (too lazy to reread all post and forgot what it was)?
Does it make it any better leashless?
An interesting question you are putting across, yet I tend to disagree with your idea, unless I misunderstood. What does MOACs stand for again (too lazy to reread all post and forgot what it was)?
In reply to Gordon Smith: I know for a fact Norrie hooked his way up (rock as well as ice) left hand route and minus one buttress using his adapted wooden axe and a terror, does this make his ascents non ethical and non applicable?
In reply to riquet:
I've been following this debate with fond interest, as it was the characterful John Brailsford who introduced me to Alpine mountaineering in the first place. He invented the MOAC and it was one of the earliest forms of nut and was named after Mountain Activities; the company who sponsored its production.
> What does MOACs stand for again (too lazy to reread all post and forgot what it was)?
I've been following this debate with fond interest, as it was the characterful John Brailsford who introduced me to Alpine mountaineering in the first place. He invented the MOAC and it was one of the earliest forms of nut and was named after Mountain Activities; the company who sponsored its production.
In reply to Gordon Smith:
I am pretty sure Guy climbs leashless so he disnae use leashes- we've moved on from Alpenstocks and hairy jumpers now. Beards have become optional as well.
Davie
I am pretty sure Guy climbs leashless so he disnae use leashes- we've moved on from Alpenstocks and hairy jumpers now. Beards have become optional as well.
Davie
In reply to Wee Davie:
Are you going to repeat Gordon's route, Pointless, with your leashless tools?
> (In reply to Gordon Smith)
>
> I am pretty sure Guy climbs leashless so he disnae use leashes- we've moved on from Alpenstocks and hairy jumpers now.
>
> I am pretty sure Guy climbs leashless so he disnae use leashes- we've moved on from Alpenstocks and hairy jumpers now.
Are you going to repeat Gordon's route, Pointless, with your leashless tools?
In reply to Norrie Muir:
I'd like to do some routes on the Orion Face that have thicker ice, and belays, and runners. ; )
Davie
I'd like to do some routes on the Orion Face that have thicker ice, and belays, and runners. ; )
Davie
In reply to Wee Davie:
What is this heresy! Mods, I demand this be deleted at once! =)
> Beards have become optional as well.
What is this heresy! Mods, I demand this be deleted at once! =)
In reply to Wee Davie: I think you are showing your ignorance with that remark ,you are out by a few generations.
In reply to Wee Davie:
At the risk of sickening you, there were several that met that description last March..
> I'd like to do some routes on the Orion Face that have thicker ice, and belays, and runners. ; )
At the risk of sickening you, there were several that met that description last March..
In reply to Gordon Smith: Having done some of Surgeons ,I think you were rather modest about its difficulty.
By the way,I am rather jealous of your sailing opportunities over in the tropics ,its a bit cauld here and my wee boats sheltering over winter.
Regards,
IC
By the way,I am rather jealous of your sailing opportunities over in the tropics ,its a bit cauld here and my wee boats sheltering over winter.
Regards,
IC
In reply to Gael Force:
>I think you are showing your ignorance with that remark ,you are out by a few generations.
I think you are showing your ignorance of banter, irony and humour with your post.
Davie
>I think you are showing your ignorance with that remark ,you are out by a few generations.
I think you are showing your ignorance of banter, irony and humour with your post.
Davie
In reply to Wee Davie:
Never.
> (In reply to Gael Force)
>
> I think you are showing your ignorance of banter, irony and humour with your post.
>
> I think you are showing your ignorance of banter, irony and humour with your post.
Never.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
I doth my cap. leave yer boots at my door any day!
> (In reply to Gordon Smith)
> [...]
>
> Hard winter routes are only transient, but long routes are not. Arthur Paul and myself did Minus One Buttress, which was the first Grade VII on Ben Nevis, there are harder routes now.
>
> You have certainly done the longest winter route on the Ben, if not in Scotland. In the current Guidebook it states that on the First Ascent in 1996, "Above the deer track, three further pitches were climbed up the virgin central branch, but the party abseiled off in the dark below a very steep icefall". Yes, you went from the bottom to the top, 20 years before the First Ascent, strange. If you had not finished the route and were a Mountain Guide and drove up the Glen in a Transit Van covered in Logos and Adverts instead of walking from Fort William, you would get the recognition of the First Ascent.
>
> You still hold the longest winter route done on Ben Nevis, so well done.
> [...]
>
> Hard winter routes are only transient, but long routes are not. Arthur Paul and myself did Minus One Buttress, which was the first Grade VII on Ben Nevis, there are harder routes now.
>
> You have certainly done the longest winter route on the Ben, if not in Scotland. In the current Guidebook it states that on the First Ascent in 1996, "Above the deer track, three further pitches were climbed up the virgin central branch, but the party abseiled off in the dark below a very steep icefall". Yes, you went from the bottom to the top, 20 years before the First Ascent, strange. If you had not finished the route and were a Mountain Guide and drove up the Glen in a Transit Van covered in Logos and Adverts instead of walking from Fort William, you would get the recognition of the First Ascent.
>
> You still hold the longest winter route done on Ben Nevis, so well done.
I doth my cap. leave yer boots at my door any day!
In reply to yer maw: Are you telling me that I should have done my winter climbing without boots and bonnet as they are ethically aid??
GOrdon
GOrdon
In reply to riquet: MOACS are (or were) an early UK nut that preceded the Chouinard range of stoppers and hexes and replaced the early form of nut protection (and aid) which consisted of drilled out engine nuts. Norrie will remember those well (engine nuts)!! Two sizes - MOAC which had to be threaded with rope and baby MOAC (which had a wire sling). In return for my explanation you might explain to me the difference between leash and wristloop ... I gather leashes are to the harness and can be rested on - am I right?
Regards, young 'un
Gordon
Regards, young 'un
Gordon
In reply to Wee Davie: Moving on from Alpenstocks and hairy jumpers doesn't mean you shouldn't (as a group of folk pursuing the same sport) reflect on the current ethics. One of my concerns is that Scottish Winter Climbing should not be pushed by ethics applied elsewhere (even though - and I recognise that - torquing was developed in Scotland). Your ethics should be derived from your tradition. Dinnae bother what they Yanks and Canuks and Froggies is doing.
Gordon - I haven't used an alpenstock or hairy jumper since I gave up winter climbing in Scotland ...
Gordon - I haven't used an alpenstock or hairy jumper since I gave up winter climbing in Scotland ...
In reply to Gael Force: You wouldn't be right now ... typhoon season. During typhoons my wee coracle bobs up and down and birls around even tied to her concrete block (oops, maybe I'm resting on aid here - 1 concrete block and leashes for aid). The cat starts to puke and it gets messy! Get your boots on your feet and go out into your Gael Force winds!!
Gordon
Gordon
In reply to Gordon Smith:
In my drawer I still have a baby moac with the price label still on, 7/6p, made for cord and for some reason never used. Think the wires ones were devised a few months after, but please do not hold me to that.
In my drawer I still have a baby moac with the price label still on, 7/6p, made for cord and for some reason never used. Think the wires ones were devised a few months after, but please do not hold me to that.
In reply to Erik B: Was Norrie's adapted wooden axe an adapted walking stick by any chance? or an adapted axe for chopping wood? More seriously, the ethics are what you (as an individual and as a group) decide they are. I just think you should, now and again, think about where the sport is going, and the logic behind the ethics that you accept. It is the logic behind accepting torqueing as free climbing that worries me. If someone torques, that's up to him, not me. If Norrie wants to bang his walking stick head into a crack and pulled up on it on Minus One Buttress so what. If he had 'fun' on the route good on him and I reckon its an impressive route. But I still think that you should look at the different issues in climbing and thrash out the logic and not just accept what passes for logic 'just e.g. because torqueing is what everyone does'.
In reply to sutty: How much do camalots and 'friends' cost now? Friends used to cost a pint of beer now and again ...but there again a pint of beer apparently costs a lot more now than it did then (in face value terms at least).
In reply to Gordon Smith:
I think all those modern camming things cost about ten times a pint, and more going off looking at them. Too old and tight to buy them when I have a perfectly useful rack of odd nuts and hexes that seem to have got me up a lot of routes in the past.
would you pay a weeks 1970 wages for a bit of gear, think that is what a friend costs now.
I think all those modern camming things cost about ten times a pint, and more going off looking at them. Too old and tight to buy them when I have a perfectly useful rack of odd nuts and hexes that seem to have got me up a lot of routes in the past.
would you pay a weeks 1970 wages for a bit of gear, think that is what a friend costs now.
In reply to Gordon Smith: its more efficient to hook a bit of rock with an axe than brush (re. wire brush for the east coast.... lord patey et al) the rock of hoar/rime/snaw/verglas, doesnt make the fall any smaller....
enjoy the boat, im dead jealous, jokes aside
enjoy the boat, im dead jealous, jokes aside
In reply to Wry Gob:
That's my point Guy - it's easier aiding with ice-axes than with traditional gear. More fun too!
Those MOAC-wielding leash slaves from the 70s were truly mental.
(Note the capitals Norrie. Still don't know what it stands for though. Perhaps you can enlighten me.)
> "Why not try a wee experiment. ditch your tools, and jump on a nice grade VII mixed route with nothing but a pair of Moacs. Remember you're not allowed to weight your harness."
That's my point Guy - it's easier aiding with ice-axes than with traditional gear. More fun too!
Those MOAC-wielding leash slaves from the 70s were truly mental.
(Note the capitals Norrie. Still don't know what it stands for though. Perhaps you can enlighten me.)
In reply to Neil Brodie:
My point was actually that if you ditched your tools and went climbing with a pair of MOACs you'd be stretching the definition of aid climbing!
"Those MOAC-wielding leash slaves from the 70s were truly mental."
MOACs are still totally awesome for winter climbing, as are hexes etc, and let us not forget that most of the hardest ground-up leads in Scotland to date were done with leashes.
Oh, and you are truly mental my boy, I've heard the stories.
> (In reply to Wry Gob)
>
"That's my point Guy - it's easier aiding with ice-axes than with traditional gear. More fun too!">
My point was actually that if you ditched your tools and went climbing with a pair of MOACs you'd be stretching the definition of aid climbing!
"Those MOAC-wielding leash slaves from the 70s were truly mental."
MOACs are still totally awesome for winter climbing, as are hexes etc, and let us not forget that most of the hardest ground-up leads in Scotland to date were done with leashes.
Oh, and you are truly mental my boy, I've heard the stories.
In reply to sutty:
I had never heard Of these MOAC. They seem well cool however I will admit to never want to climb with those.
Torquing viewed as aid... Well it is good to be self reflective but any body that really had to torque for more than 3 full moves will know that it is extremely tiring and can feel precarious.
I have not done any aid, and some of it seems mental.
Yet by definition if you can aid, it has to take at least body weight, that is to say you are weighting it (nerves allowing you may weigh it for a day). Not so for a torque, you can weigh it only when applying side forces, the same effort than a free climb crimp, gaston...
Good forbid that I ever find myself having to hold a torque for more than 1/2 minutes (my max and still fell like a sack after gear was placed... needless to say i don't claim that route as O/S).
It is refreshing though that someone that used to climb, and has been out of the loop a bit, can ask questions that people in the know will feel unnecessary: makes you ponder a bit more (certainly did for me)
I had never heard Of these MOAC. They seem well cool however I will admit to never want to climb with those.
Torquing viewed as aid... Well it is good to be self reflective but any body that really had to torque for more than 3 full moves will know that it is extremely tiring and can feel precarious.
I have not done any aid, and some of it seems mental.
Yet by definition if you can aid, it has to take at least body weight, that is to say you are weighting it (nerves allowing you may weigh it for a day). Not so for a torque, you can weigh it only when applying side forces, the same effort than a free climb crimp, gaston...
Good forbid that I ever find myself having to hold a torque for more than 1/2 minutes (my max and still fell like a sack after gear was placed... needless to say i don't claim that route as O/S).
It is refreshing though that someone that used to climb, and has been out of the loop a bit, can ask questions that people in the know will feel unnecessary: makes you ponder a bit more (certainly did for me)
In reply to riquet:
You never stop learning in this life, things improve, change.
Now if you are ever this way you can show me how to use my mobile phone for all the gismos on it and set up my video recorder.
You never stop learning in this life, things improve, change.
Now if you are ever this way you can show me how to use my mobile phone for all the gismos on it and set up my video recorder.
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