UKH

Hi all, looking for some community advice on new tools.

I've had some old Petzl quarks for a few years, which I've used for Scottish mixed, and decided it's time for a tool upgrade. I want something a bit more technical for dry-tooling and harder mixed stuff/steeper ice. Therefore, would like to be able to have interchangeable hammers and ice/mixed picks.

Have used the Nomics before on ice and mixed, and really love the feel (swing feels pretty perfect to me), but they seem pretty pricey, and I'm on a fairly tight budget. Was looking at the Cassin / CAMP X-Dream as an alternative, which some reviews say are very similar (in some cases preffered) to the Nomic and seem to be a bit cheaper. I've also heard you need to be careful which model of nomics you buy, as one model has an issue with vibration/wobbling when swung in temperature extremes, but was fixed in a later model by adding a plastic ring in the handle? So which particular model(s) do I need to avoid if going for Nomics?

But now I have also had a little look at some reviews of the Grivel Tech machine, and this seems like it could be a strong contender, especially as I've came across some for way cheaper than the Nomic/X-dream. For dry tooling this tool looks pretty awesome, but how does it compare on mixed/ice? Looks like the pick angle is a bit more aggressive than the other two tools here?

So basically, think I've narrowed my choices to:

- Nomic

- X-dream

- Tech Machine

Have obviously read a few reviews, but still can't decide - Would love to hear any opinions of anyone with experience with these tools - particularly anyone who has used multiple of these tools and able to give a comparison - or important things to watch out for.

(unfortunately don't have a good winter gear shop nearby to go and have a feel)

Thanks

Your profile gives very little away on your level of experience - no previous post and 4 easier routes at Windgather logged in your logbook. Before you get accused of being another sock puppet account (which I'm not suggesting, but we've seen it many times before), what Scottish routes have you done? What types of routes do you want to do? If you are talking about going from III,4s to V,6s I think you are likely to be disappointed with difference that going from Quarks to, say, Nomics will make. Now if you think you are likely to be going from V to VIII, then maybe - but that's above my pay grade. Quarks are superb tools and very well designed for technical mountaineering routes where there is much more to the day than just steep technical climbing - exactly the type of climbing we do in UK winters. I've got DMM Switches - great technical tools - but for UK winter climbing up to grade V, I prefer my BD Vipers as they both climb that hard, on ice or mixed, with ease, and are better for the rest of day than the Switches.

Hi Toby, thanks for the reply - I don't really bother logging stuff on here or post at all - in fact only just discovered I had created a previous account on here a few years back. I have climbed Scottish mixed grade IV's but want to try for V's and VI's. But...I also want a tool that is better for harder dry-tooling and want something with a more technical shaped hand rest, like the ones mentioned above. I have used friend's' tools (Nomic and a BD tool...can't remember which one) with the kinked handle, and they feel so much better than the non-kinked Quark handle. I also struggled to find an extra trig-rest that would fit my quark - the quark one I bought did not actually fit - not sure why. The model I have is quite old I think - got it second-hand.

For V's and VI's I really can't fault the nomics, adding the Adze and the Hammer make them a very versatile mixed tool and stripped back with dedicated ice picks it's a tough tool to beat on ice.

That said, I must have got lucky with my second gen model as they've yet to develop a wobbly head even though they are looking very beat up at this point (and I'm not particularly light!). The current generation claims to have resolved the wobbly head issue (that was never an issue according to Petzl...).

The X-Dreams perform almost identically on water ice and I've yet to hear about durability issues for mixed so are a solid alternative.

Personally never really got on too well with the handles on the Grivel tools but maybe that's just me. 

Funny you link those first gen Reactors, my wife now uses my old pair of those. I got a pair of orange Vipers, similar to yours I'm guessing and find the whip on the Vipers are slightly better than those old Reactors. Ice axes, kitchen knives and claw hammers, they all feel so personal.

To the OP, I guess if you're looking at dry tooling then perhaps a more aggressive set of axes might be worth it. We climb pure ice at WI5 quite fine with Vipers but that's about as steep as we'll go.

You can adjust the angle of the X Dreams handle which may be useful for dry tooling. I've not used them, but have had a swing about with the new Ergos which I suspect they mimic with the handle in the more relaxed position, and they felt great. 

I upgraded to tech machines from dmm apexes when I started pushing into grade VI. I think that the modern offset handle style tools do make a difference when climbing VII+. Having said that a friend of mine used to climb VII no bother on some of the old style vipers so I think it’s more down to how strong you are than anything else. 

In relation to the tech machines, I really rate them. The handle seems to be a bit marmite but I get on with it. It doesn’t have the wobble head and snappy handle (lol) issues of the nomic. I also have mixed picks with a steeper angle which I think helps my confidence on thin hooks. When I want to climb an ice or alpine route I just put the ice picks on and they seem perfectly fine boshing up endless snow etc. 

I set myself a goal of getting on tech 6 stuff before upgrading to ergo shape tools. in winter I think the gain is small but for drytooling they do make a difference. 

If you are going to do any dry tooling at all I wouldn't bother looking at nomics, every time you crank hard on them it'll be nagging in your mind that you are trashing them. I'm sure some people will drytool hard on them but their reputation for being weak is well founded as is petzls poor attitude to the use of their tools for anything but ice. 

I was torn between Grivel tech machines and black diamond Fuel. Ended up with a pair of fuels as I preferred the handle. They are built like absolute tanks and very comfortable to use. 

I think none of those, if I were you I'd go for the Petzl Ergonomic. Nomics only make sense if you are going to do a lot of ice. I don't rate the X-Dreams (not design for scottish mixed abuse, one screw keeping the change of handle...?) or Tech machines (worst handle design in the world?). Specially if you want to train tooling I'd defo go for Ergonomics

Just to confuse  you even more, ict have some great axes,  direct message them on Instagram ict Europe,  dragon 2 are excellent on mixed and tooling,  you defo won't break those, revolts are awesome for tooling,  basically a copy of the kruk anchars for a fraction of the cost.

https://instagram.com/ict.europe?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

where do you clip and lanyards in the dragon 2? 

What's a lanyard??

I’ve a set of quarks and a couple of sets of nomics.  Buying my first set of nomics a few years ago was one of the things that helped me to move my climbing from V and a few VIs, to lots of VIs and a few VIIs every season.  Before buying a second set of nomics I ended up with the same list as you  I really rate the nomics for scotland but wanted a set of axes just for ice to avoid changing the picks for when I want to use them for ice. I almost bought some x-dreams until I had a swing of a set.  The base of the handle is really wide which for me would result in quite a weak grip position.  The third gen nomics aren’t perfect (the spike isn’t rated very high) but they handle really well on either ice or mixed and you can put an adze and hammer on them.  For me I think a drop handle axe such as the nomic etc makes quite a bit of difference from grade V upwards (I’m just old enough to have lead grade V on straight axes and wrist leashes)

The majority of the Vs I've climbed in the UK (and one now VI) was in the 1990s on straight Pulsars with simple wrist loops. Then I left the country and mainly climbed water ice through the 00s. Coming back to the UK in 2014, I've manage some winter climbing each winter since, although not as much as I would like, including a couple more routes at V. Modern tools definitely make it easier, particularly placing gear, but having done some of those routes on DMM Switches and some on BD Vipers, I'm not hugely convinced the Switches make it easier for me, and when balancing around on steep icy snow slopes before or after a route, the spike on the Vipers is more useful, than the non-spike metal thingy at the base of the Switches. I'm set-back handled tools (Nomics, Switch, etc) must help at a certain grade, but I don't think I've found it yet (well, dry tooling maybe), and there do seem to be certain trade offs in terms of the tools usability for the "walking around" bits of the day, which are quite a big part of a day in the UK mountains!

Your not wrong about the spike being useful, though vipers and quarks etc still plunge poorly compared to old school stuff.

Worst tool I have tried for plunging was the grivel machine 3.0 (same handle as the tech machine). it was kind of like trying to push a frozen bannana into the snow and if you don't get it at the right angle it shoots itself out of the snow. It was fine if plunging uphill but traversing or descending a slope led to one or two unpleasant moments.

I think having a spike with the same convex curve as the handle was the problem.

haha the OP chap wants the tools for scotland, not masson...

Misguided fools ! Bit of string through the bottom of the handle will work !

I just turn my ergonomics upside down and use the spikes on the top of the picks for the walking about bits 

There's not much of a "spike" there though, is there?And have you tried ice axe arresting with them yet?

I don't want to try and over sell the point that my Switches are rubbish for the walking around bits of mountaineering, I think I actually just dagger with them where with an old (or older-) school tool I might push the pommel spike into the snow. More just that curved technical ice tools like Vipers and Quarks really are great tools for a huge amount of the climbs that we have in the UK winter. 

Three great choices of axe there, each a little different but generally the same. My thoughts:

Tech machine - 1. The handle can get damaged where the upper pommel contacts the rock/ice, wet snow can get pushed between the layers then freeze and expand, looks untidy but not a show stopper. 2. The upper handle is quite high up the shaft which is good for tooling on positive holds but the pick isn't steep enough to carry it off on marginal placements meaning you can get ejected on marginal holds which are common on the harder grades. Lots of pick and hammer/adzes to choose from now.

Nomic V3? - haven't used these but unlike V2 the handle has a complete redesign. looks higher than the V1/2 but not used so don't know for sure. lots of picks to choose from and hammer adze configurations. The head issues have been resolved from what I hear (or don't hear more like) and don't clip your tether to the wobbly plastic pommel.

X Dream - I've used these loads in Scotland and the Alps for dry/mixed and ice. Really good for everything. The shaft is quite long and the upper handle is as low as it can get on the shaft so really stable on flaties and marginal holds. The picks are really good but are very thin so do not last long in Scotland as you tend to swing at what you think is one thing and it turns out to be rock as you probably know. If you get these try and get some aftermarket beefy picks for Scotland. They also do new hammers and adzes. Also the head and shaft are narrower which means you can slide them into more cracks, strangely way more than you would think. 

Of the three the X-dreams would be the ones I would get with some aftermarket picks, never had an issue with them and you can always nerd out adjusting the handles. Second would be the Nomic and third the Tech Machines