UKH

hi all , anyone been out int lakes today 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/345833125602252/?ref=share

Went out for a walk over Bowfell and Esk Pike from the ODG, returning via Esk Hause and Rossett Gill, so the below is from a walker's perspective rather than a climber.

Snow level was down to the valley floor in Langdale first thing but once the weather cleared there was a lot of melting on the sunlit lower slopes. Higher up there was a lot of fresh powder often covering frozen rocks which made the summit of Bowfell "entertaining". Where the wind had scoured the powder away there were some nice, albeit small, patches of neve. The powder was being blown about by the wind with some evidence of windslab forming in places. The higher tarns such as Three Tarns were frozen over.

Don't know how that translates to a climbing perspective but it certainly looked nice.

I left that group a few years ago because I couldn't deal with all the self-declared experts and people trying to inflate their own egos by slagging others off. 

LOL. One member in particular i'm guessing.....

I remember it being more of a general culture although there were obviously lots of sensible people on there too. There were an awful lot of posts slagging people off for something, usually footwear that didn't conform to the OPs expectations.

There's none of that (or at least virtually none) these days.  It's quite helpful for England and Wales, but it seems to be mainly commercial entities (instructors, guides etc.) posting about Scotland. Biggest problem I still find is people who insist on talking about the "temperature with windchill" and not understanding that's not the actual temperature! But the pointlessness of windchill being given as a temperature remains the smallest hill that I'm ready to die on...

Actually, in that group there does still seem to be people who think climbs are in winter condition when I suspect any relatively experienced winter climber would say they definitely are not. My theory is that there are more people going out in winter who have simply not had chance to experience what some of us who have been around a bit would call 'normal winter conditions' because of the changing climate/pattern of winters. If you've never climbed a grade I gully full of firm deep snow, why wouldn't you think that climbing one where you are going through powder to turf or scree underneath isn't "good conditions"?

I wonder as well if possibly in England and Wales than in Scotland there is a bigger number of people going into the hills who seem almost completely disconnected from 'outdoor culture' or 'the hill walking scene' and seem oblivious to what many of us think are obvious risks. Like this from yesterday for example! https://twitter.com/LakesWeather/status/1615067843888054272

I saw a post about how a route was in 'hard conditions' and it took all my strength of character not to reply 'back in the day we just called that in condition.'

Had similar thoughts myself. Seem to see more and more people claiming stuff is in, but I've been to look myself and it definitely isn't.

In the cold snap in December me and a mate went and had a look at brown cove crags. Very much not in, just a dusting of hoar on some of the rocks. Given that we we there with gear we just did a summer scramble. There was a guy at the top who'd come up an adjacent buttress and stopped to talk about how good the conditions were. Granted he was on a different part of the crag, but still. He was wearing some very shiny new kit, which did make us wonder if he was new to it and lacked the experience to judge it well.

Saw a post this morning from someone who'd been up easy gully on Dow crag but basically implied in the description that it's not in yet, but still climbed it. Tempting to add a comment, but I wasn't there so don't know the whole picture.

More and more it seems like the lakes doesn't really have a winter climbing season, it's just a case of snatching the odd day out here and there when you can. How do you teach people what's in and what's not when you can so rarely find good conditions? Very easy just to come across as a bit old and bitter if you start acting as some sort of self appointed gate keeper.

A friend started winter climbing last year. He's very keen and at the slightest sign of cold weather he'll message to ask if anything will be in yet. I remember being equally as keen when I started, it can be very frustrating when you want to go out and use your shiny new axes. It can take quite a bit of self discipline I think to not climb routes that aren't quite in. Especially to walk away from the crag and inevitably later on see a load of posts on social media about how great conditions were, even though you saw with your own eyes that they weren't.

Just say it anyway; it's education

I reckon the Lakes is in for a period most winters but that only in good, sustained winters like 2013, 2015, 2018 and 2021 are a wider range of routes in and will you get a build up of neve in snow gullies etc.

By and large I just look at the pictures of crags. 

I absolutely detest the pile-ons in threads like that. And I can imagine lots of the people piling in are the kind who promenade up and down Keswick High Street dressed ready for a winter attempt on the Eiger.

Yep, saw the same post and that was in my mind when answering Dave above. There's snow in the gully and maybe the turf was frozen, but its a bit of fresh over the ground with grass still poking out. No hoar or rime on the rocks either. Not summer, but not "winter climbing" as how I learnt to understand (or I guess you either). 

Yep - total agreement to all that! 

Maybe, but you can understand the MRTs and safety peeps the fell top assessors pulling their hair out when they see that sort of stuff. It's like people walking past the signs at the bottom of Snowdon that say "don't go up if you don't have an ice axe and crampons" and thinking "that must be for other people than me".

What's the chances of decent conditions this coming weekend, after the present cold spell?

I've got my fingers crossed but the sunshine and hard frosts look set end before then. I'm hoping the high crags might be high enough to stay in some sort of condition but it's not certain looking at the current forecast.

I felt quite sad today when I saw people coiling a rope with lots of shiny kit just down from the Helvellyn Summit shelter.  I fear we'll be banned in Lakeland soon if people ignore the botanists

We're keeping an eye but towards the weekend it might get too warm sat/sun. We don't put too much stock in the accuracy of temps more than a couple of days in advance but on Friday we'll be making a call on whether we'll be taking a pair of climbing axes or just a single hiking axe.

I'm not aware of any pressure from Park authorities, local government or independent charities or other interest groups. Are you?

It would be optimal, I suppose, if climbers didn't climb on unfrozen cliffs because we want there to rare flora growing there, not because we are scared of getting into trouble.

Back in the 1990s or early 2000s I went to an exhibition at Tullie House in Carlisle that had sections about rare plants in the Cumbria.  I was quite surprised and a bit shocked to see that even then winter climbing was being mentioned as putting these plants under threat in some locations as vegetation was being stripped.  This was already at a time when I'd noticed more people climbing in conditions where unfrozen vegetation is exposed.

I've actually seen roped parties exiting from gullies on Helvellyn on to the upper slopes below the shelter when those slopes were largely green

that is exactly why I don't go there when the conditions look undeveloped

Of course the main reason why winter climbers might come into contact with these rare alpine flora environments is that we can get places that sheep can't, and these are the only places not turned in eco-diversity deserts caused by sheep grazing.

Conditions much improved yesterday, extra snow cover and some ice, lots of parties out

......and lots of areas are useless for sheep amazingly......bracken.

Re Lakes conditions - anyone coming off Blencathra/Saddleback, Helvellyn, out of Borrowdale has a good choice of pubs - near Blencathra - White Horse, Mill Inn Mungrisdale, Old Crown Hesket of course.

Five minutes from Blencathra and ten minutes from Ullswater is the Sportsman's at Troutbeck, right beside the A66. Under new management, they are really trying hard - two fires at least, food and good beer all day. All day breakfast stunning and not expensive.

DC

Dropped into the Mill yesterday having gotten off Blencathra - only to be told that it was closing between 4pm and 5pm. Great! So no pint for me.

It's also now closed every Monday and Tuesday. Not sure what's going on there.

Re Northern Fells pubs: any special comments on the Oddfellows, Dave? That always strikes me as a place which could be much better than it is - the bar service is typically useless. No idea why.

Their steaks are very good.

DC

Well on Mondays and Tuesdays f*** all, I guess!

It's a weird way to run a pub in a tourist area. But there must be reasons.

The staff turnover in that place has seemed quite high over the past few years.

Problems getting staff?  My wife works in hospitality and the hotel she is involved with inside the NP is severely affected by the shortage of people who used to come freely from Eastern Europe to the extent it will only be open at weekends this year and mainly for larger groups of guests

I often used to eat in there after a day climbing in Borrowdale, it was nothing fancy but cheap and chearful.

I ate there again last year and found it is now neither cheap nor chearful. In fact it was one of the worst dining experiences I've ever had. I shan't be eating there again.

Apologies for the thread rerailment, but is there any slight chance of any vestigial ice up on great end on Monday?

( judging by the bmc sensors, no  but I thought I'd ask anyway) 

I've not been there but other hills look bare and I'd be amazed if there as anything climbable there.