UKH

These comments were written a few years ago.
Perhaps they still stand in the context of what is acceptable to climb in winter?

The proposal suggested:
1. Starred rock classics should never be climbed with tools.
2. If you are that good - do them in rock shoes and bare hands like some of the pioneers did.
3. We don't beat routes into submission with pegs and hammers any more, so why do the same with ice tools?
4. When are the leading lights and their follower punters going to say "enough is enough"
5. Max Biden said in the Langdale guidebook almost ten years ago, "The increasing risk .. .. where 'winter conditions' may be little more than a transient coating of fresh snow .. .. The use of ice tools and crampons on such superb sunny faces is out of place .. .. ". Read the full statement.
6. The mindless destruction of routes like Bowfell Buttress, Engineers Slabs and Grendel by the egotistical myopic narrow-minded anoraks that wish to tick a grade 5 or 6 or 7 is just hopelessly destructive on these climbs.
7. If you are so good, or so desperate to impress your girlfriend - do them in boxing gloves and roller skates like Ray MacHaffie did.
8. What right is there to grind rock classics away forever? The justification for many ascents - like rime and hoare is just total BS. You can wipe that stuff off with your hands, leaving bare rock - we all know that. There are acres of steep and overhanging rock in the Lakes that can be climbed with tools that never get climbed in Summer, so no damage would be done. An example is the big face of Greenhow end up Deepdale.
9. In summary - if it is wet, vegetated, never climbed in summer - that's a goer in winter. If it's clean, dry, regularly climbed in summer - no way with tools.
10. Don't be a muppet and wreck our heritage.

DC

We climbed Bowfell Buttress (Summer) a year ago, and it was an amazing climb and day out My favourite classic rock so far in the lakes (Still have a few to do though). However I was really surprised by the amount of crampon marks etc on the route.The most I have seen by far on any normal rock route I have done, saying that alot of the polish and rounded nut placements could have come from summer climbing for context I am still a pretty novice climber I have been trad climbing around 3 years so still a lot to see and do.  
I don’t winter climb (although I’d like to give it a go one day). So was unsure of the ethics etc behind winter climbing existing established classic lines if they were indeed established before the winter route.

but again as I said I have ne experience with winter climbing or it’s ethics. 

If you want a code of conduct people can agree to and abide by I'd go for something less judgy/arsy. If you want to express anger, polarise and alienate then those points work quite well.

On the whole it all sounds a bit more last century than last decade. The way it's expressed I mean, not the notion that we should protect a limited resource like the rock.

Do you disagree or agree with point 1?

1. Starred rock classics should never be climbed with tools.

Agree, I mean disagree, I mean agree, or do it and don't log it - if it isn't logged it didn't happen, or do it at night with no torch - if you didn't see it did it happen? 

FFS we do this every year! (Usually when it's been raining for a few days in the Lakes and as a result Dave C is board so post his annual Lakes Winter Ethics post.)

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. The terms would need to be better defined. For example, one star does not a classic make and I'm sure there are lots of 1 star routes that would look like fair game in winter and that nobody would worry about. It's maybe not an outrageous viewpoint for the Lakes but I've climbed loads of winter routes that get stars in the summer in Scotland so I'd be something of a hypocrite if I was to agree with the statement as it stands.

I think re point 1 I would say 2 and 3 star routes in the Lake District should not be climbed with tools unless they have already been done and are more important and historic as a winter route than as a rock route. By this definition, Bowfell Buttress and Pisgah Buttress would be fair game, as they were first done in proper winter condition in the 1930s, at which time they were probably the hardest mixed routes in Britain and a real step forward in climbing by Sid Cross and Alice Nelson but Great Eastern, which has been done in winter, would not be fair game for repeat ascents as the winter ascent was not an important, historic ascent and so on balance it would be better to leave it as a summer only route.

Also, winter routes that share a name with the summer route but follow very different lines are fair to climb in winter e.g. Botterill's Slab (Winter) (V 6) and Botterill's Slab (VS 4c) where the winter line is stuck in the corner but the summer line is out on the thin cracks on the slab.

I think the situation in Scotland is different, as many routes are in winter condition for months at a time and may be in winter condition for longer periods than they are in summer condition. This is rarely, if ever true in the Lake District.

I don't think there are many winter routes in Scotland that are in condition for months at a time although it's accurate to say that the summer season for mountain rock is shorter in Scotland.

I think it's local tradition plus the difference in quality/style of routes and the numbers climbing them that makes the situation different.

I disagree. Some starred classics also happen to form natural winter lines.

I haven't done it, but when was Bowfell Buttress destroyed? It has over a 1000 logged ascents in the logbooks, and lots of comments along the lines of "wonderful", "excellent day out!" and so on.

Grendel appears to have two logged winter ascents, but interestingly hardly any more summer ascents. Is it any good in either summer or winter? If so, why doesn't it see more traffic? Has anyone done it in summer and noted any signs of winter ascents. I did The Crack on Gimmer a couple of summer ago and didn't notice any signs of the winter ascent(s?).

Or boyfriend, let's not make assumptions.

Have any been "ground away"? And can anything be "ground away forever"? If it is being ground forever, surely it must NOT be being ground away.

Again what heritage has been wrecked?

I think there are loads of sensible discussions to be had around winter climbing, particularly in the Lakes and North Wales, but when you start off from a completely hysterical position where you insult people who have climbed stuff in a style you don't approve of, you are unlikely to get that sensible discussion. But I don't think that's what you really want, is it?

I think you should stick to the debate and stay away from insulting ad hominins. Most contributors are pragmatic in this regard.

DC

The irony is strong with this one given that your OP is basically one big ad hom! 

Please tell me the irony is deliberate, I could respect that! 😀

Dragging the debate down to a Neanderthal level...

No, your position is hysterical - you are talking about routes being "destroyed". That's patently ridiculous. No route has been "destroyed" - some scratched, sure. But destroyed? Don't be silly. You can't explain what "wreck our heritage" means. That's why I said your post hysterical. Your original post also seemed to be questioning the manhood (or womanhood perhaps - if the woman happens to be gay I suppose) with silly lines like "if you are so good, or so desperate to impress your girlfriend..." You told people not to be a "muppet". That not the harshest insults ever, but they are derogatory towards people who don't act in a way of which you approve. That's why I said it seems that you're not interested in debate, just stating what you think is correct.

By the way, just out of interest I looked up Snicker Snack (E3 5c) just to check if that route had in anyway been "destroyed" - as it has been given as an example over the last decade of a good winter climb but one that shouldn't be climbed in that form because the original summer route is so good and winter ascents could break holds or otherwise render the climb unclimbable. But it has had recorded ascents this summer, last summer, the summer before, loads in 2018 and so on. Most the comments are extremely positive, although a number note the top pitch is really dirty.

Come on surely a taxonomy based joke is worth more than one like? You don't get many of them to the dozen. In fact I've only made one other in my life. 😉

How many times do we need to repeat this vital history (that DC knows very well but ignores). 

On some other points DC made:

2. The 'pioneers' often climbed in nailed boots (which when the punters followed resulted in huge amounts of damage to classic rock climbs across popular UK crags... until the vast majority stopped using them).

3. Not only do we still have pegs being placed, we now have drilled peg bolts!? :O

7. Ray cheated (again commonly known history )

9. I'd rather vegetated routes with rare flora were avoided as winter (or summer) climbs, as per the BMC Lakes and Snowdonia white guides.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/lake-district-winter-conditions-guide

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/media/files/BMC%20North%20Wales%20White%20Guide%20...

It made me grin like an ape

Couple of photos here of the damage being done on Bowfell Buttress:

https://imgcdn.ukc2.com/i/399829?fm=webp&time=1672428909&s=3add6228...

https://imgcdn.ukc2.com/i/399830?fm=webp&time=1672429021&dpr=1&...

Many of what were good sharp edges are now sloping edges, the first pitch is very bad where people have been hooking their axes over the top edge and then peddling their crampons up the smooth wall, very sad to see.

Quite often you hear people quoting that "its an historical winter ascent" but I would think Sid Cross etc al would be ashamed to see what's happened to this classic rock route! 

From the historical it sounds as though they were climbing with one axe and a knife! and more than likely to be wearing 10 point crampons or nails! 

But winter climbing is harder than summer climbing so doesn't it take priority anyway? If you don't believe me then just organise your log book by grade and see!

All those rules seem like a whole load of passive aggressive rant. It doesn't clarify exactly which routes (the exceptions) are OK to climb if there is a decent quantity of freeze. So it could better have just said:

* Don't spoil things for other people

* Don't be a d!ck

I'd agree with much of that because poor style matters more on mixed winter routes... it doesn't mean the route should be totally avoided. I get annoyed when climbers (who should know better) top rope those lacking skills on routes like Downhill Racer, further polishing the holds with poor style.... it doesn't mean no one should climb it.

10. 'dont be a muppet and wreck our heritage'

Our Heritage if you wish to make quotes about past climbers, was to go look at a route without a guide book.  If you think it will go then get on it.

So our 'heritage' actually supports the idea of climbing anything at anytime.