UKH

Not sure if it’s been posted already but it looked to be like rock climbing with axes. 

This sort of nonsense appears to be on the increase.

Some of the other photos are worse!

Happens every year though, European climbing wad shows up, conditions are poor, they end up climbing something completely out of condition.

It's not all euro wads, some local lads did Moss Ghyll Grooves who should know better!

How can we tell? Is it in Scotland or on Mont Blanc? Different places, different ethics, no?

No. Definitely last year's colours.

Blimey, fashion advice from Robert Durran.
Whatever next... 🙄

Their Instagram clearly labels it as Scotland. Babylon on the Ben to be precise.

.

Sadly we only had a cropped photo rather than a link to it's source to make a judgement on!

It's good to see someone asking the obvious question before passing judgement.

Looking at it I'd be very surprised if that photo wasn't in the UK.

Ah. I'm not quite as social media savvy. Well... I'll defer to locals to say whether it was in that day or not; I still find it hard to tell from one photo. But, I can tell you that if you attempt to drown the offending culprit in water and she floats, she might be a witch.

The tag in the photo is the name of the Instagram account (took me way too long to work out it's a lowercase L rather than I).

I also looked up her instagram account but somehow missed that photo! How far back in her timeline was it?

It's in the current story reel. Maybe easier to find on the @Faymanners reels.

In as a scramble I think? 

Oh yeah - seen it. Thanks. The looking down pictures looks more wintery as per normal! For a foreign visitor I can well imagine why it would be a complete 'mare trying to get why most UK winter climbers wouldn't consider that to be in condition when it icy, there is snow on all the ledges etc. I don't know Ms Manners beyond having heard about all the routes she has done - she's British but seems to be Chamonix-based so I don't know if she has or hasn't done a lot in Scotland. 

What is "in" in Scottish/UK winter conditions is such an odd thing as an intellectual exercise. I've been thinking about for 30 years and I don't think I can explain it very well!  

Ramon - I can't remember if you were in the recently deceased Black Watch FB group? But this thread feels strongly like Black Watch withdrawal symptoms playing out!

Recently deceased? What happened to it?

The originator pulled the plug on it. It grew arms and legs and got quite a bit bigger than the joke it started out as. Reading between the lines I think some people were pissed off at being named and shamed.

Colonel Jamie decided that his regiment had grown a bit bigger than he was originally thought, noses getting put of of joint, mean things said even if perhaps not really meant and so on.

It raised some interesting points though, I reckon there is a new generation of winter climbers who just haven't seen what us older folk think of as normal conditions so often with changing weather patterns. Also it has been pointed out that instructors and guides are trying to give clients what they've paid for, so push the concept of what is 'in'. Easy for us weekend warriors to smirk, but everyone needs a job and we nearly all have to compromise our conscience to some extent to pay the mortgage. Is clambering up some frozen but un rimed granite really worse than the person who has to fly for their work for instance?

Sorry a bit meta for what this thread is originally about.

Another way to look at it is that guides have a responsibility to educate clients in the history and traditions of the sport.

I don't disagree - in a perfect world, absolutely.

But particularly for a sport depending on cold temperatures, a world that is warming is far from a perfect one. 

It's all a bit sad if I think about these things too much. I know I'm a hypocrite in various ways, so I'm trying to avoid being judgemental about stuff in my middle age!

I was a member of the black watch Facebook group and thought the original concept was quite amusing, but only when the climbers were granted anonymity. 

The issue of whether something is 'in' or not is pretty subjective, as all of us on here who've spent lots of time out in the mountains know. Sometimes photos just don't fully capture the feel of the day. How many of the routes climbed in the NW looked like this on their first ascent- probably a lot more than most would like to admit!

Whilst it's great fun gently mocking your friends for the photos not looking fully wintery, something feels a bit different about 'naming and shaming' people on a public forum.  Perhaps not the warm welcome that visiting climbers could hope for.

Agreed. Snow in the cracks and on ledges, and have definitely seen a lot worse. I'm sure most on this thread have done stuff in similar nick.

As we all know, a thin layer of frozen/semi frozen water is 100% protective of rock. 100%

I think we all know it's got nothing to do with protecting the rock.

But that isn't, and has never been, the point. Actually ice over rock does protect it to some degree, even verglas, but hoar or rime doesn't. But like I said, that's not the point. 

No Toby I was never part of that group. I would have certainly never been invited in, that's for sure. I'm glad it is disbanded, and I didn't intend this post to be a replacement. I just like poking fun and the whole Scottish ethics now that I don't do it anymore and can watch it from a distance, it's just like Netflix, but free. The truth is that most routes about VII are just drytooling really... and I can see why the visiting Euros can get it mixed up. 

Chinny reckon.

Hardly surprising when sponsored heroes get on totally dry roofs. At least this has some vestiges of snow. Or is it one rule for the elite and another route for the rest of us plebs?

And I’m assuming they didn’t pre-place all the gear the day before, so at least it’s a valid ascent in that sense even if the conditions weren’t exactly fully winterised. 

I've seen the "dry roof" photos you are referring to - that looked like winter even if the roof was black. The above photo doesn't look remotely like winter conditions.

If the snow is saturated and it's raining, do you think mixed routes are in acceptable condition for an ascent?

Stuart 

I think we kid ourselves, when I did Magic Crack it couldn't be in more winter nic (as in plastered) and I just felt like savaging a beautiful granite summer rock crack back to pink raw. The snow, ice and verglas did nothing to protect it, I was torquing, hammering and scratching the hell out of it. I remember seeing a picture of Scott Muir climbing it in summer and just felt wrong to be doing it with tools. I had a few more experiences like that and I just decided to walk away from it. I'd be happy to do more later in life at a lower grades where its' more proper mixed, but at the upper grades it's just drytooling. The thing is that the precedent is there, there are a few pictures of routes being climbed black in the Great Mountain Crags of Scotland book, the one that stands out is Pete Benson doing Slochd Wall (pic below), which I first saw it years ago I found so confusing.  

Sure. I think it is pretty well understood now that "proper winter conditions" on mixed and snowed up rock, i.e. heavy rime, does nothing to protect the rock and actually increases the chances of scratching because you can't see foot placements. But like I said above, that's not what routes being white is about, or not to my understanding anyway. You wait for route to be in 'proper' winter condition because its winter climbing! It should be harder in winter, or at least it should be easier to climb with tools and crampons than without. But my top grade is now more than half the top grade of the hardest routes, so I worry most about if the turf is frozen so I don't rip it off. Perhaps life is simpler at IV and V!

Agreed that looks very black. Pete and Guy both have huge experience - I wonder if in retrospect they still think that was decent conditions or not? Again for those of us doing easier stuff I could imagine there might have been lots of snow around that day, and if you are doing a nearby III or IV and basically going ledge to ledge you could have been swimming through snow, but that route is so steep there was no snow on it. So is the X not in condition while the nearby III is? I don't know...

It’s a photo of one section of the route and not the crux section either. Agree it doesn’t look generally wintery though. My point remains though - the more the wads do routes which are not (fully) wintery, the more everyone else will push the envelope. 

I have only done Magic Crack in summer. It seemed a bit sad that such a beautiful pitch had been so butchered. And that was 20 years ago. 

A case of reductio ad absurdum.

Can you please translate into Scottish?

Regards

Stuart 

It goes at III,9 in Scottish money, Stuart  😉

That is indeed an absurd grade.

I've done a few VIIs and none of them felt like a DT experience to me.

Is that the same as VII,7, if frozen?

Stuart 

Yes sure, it might feel like a winter experience but it’s still drytooling. Pic below is when I climbed Magic Crack I was referring to, my point is even in full winter nic it felt I was ravaging a beautiful summer route (to Robert’s point above). It was drytooling, no ice or turf to be seen or pull on, that’s my definition of drytooling, whether you are being snowed on or not. Real Mixed involves ice or turf in my view.

Aye your bang on Ramon, all VIIs and above are just drytooling….. oh no wait, the only route I’ve done of that level this year had 4 hooks on rock in the entire 20m crux pitch! Quite hard, pumpy, and almost entirely on turf. Aye bang on there Ramon…. 

Andy

Seems ok if you ditch the crampons

Minimal damage from tools as you can see all the placements and so can carefully hook them.  Much less wear on the rock than in full winter conditions when you have to dig and scrat.....

I'm fact, due to arthritis in my fingers I'm thinking of doing all my summer climbing with tools and stickies......just the routes that get trashed every winter......and quarries.   I reckon I'll get another ten years out of the game doing that

Putting forward an absurdly extreme example to try to win an argument. 

Is this ascent ok? Can’t see the wider picture and this isn’t the crux but probably ‘not in’ by most people’s definition. However I can see that a Cham based climber would consider this legit. I don’t know how aware the team was of Scottish winter ethics but I’m not surprised that they were unaware or confused, given what else is going on. 
 

Which leads to my main point. Given these climbers are based in the Alps, I’m not too concerned about what they do. Hopefully they will hear about and take on board sensible comments. We all have something to learn about climbing ethics in areas which are new to us.

I have far bigger issues with the other recent ascents which have been in the news. These were made by people who really should know better.

Bring da Rukus - significant totally dry section which happens to be the crux. I can see why people say ‘oh that’s ok because the rest of the route was wintery’. However these dry sections will tend to get even longer on other routes - it’s the thin end of the wedge. Mark my word.

Banana Wall - second and third ascents, really? Since when was doing a winter (or trad) route with the gear in from the previous day constituted a valid ascent? They might as well have left the draws. It’s the kind of thing I might occasionally do on trad at my punter level, in the hope of coming back to do it properly one day. People wouldn’t really care if it was the 100th ascent. However 2nd and 3rd repeats of a top end route are clearly going to be significant, not least to confirm the grade. Fine to do it in whatever style but don’t claim it if it’s not an recognised style and UKC shouldn’t amplify this either. Banana Wall remains unrepeated, as far as I’m concerned.

Stone Bastion - I’m far less concerned as the guys actually did the route in one push and placing gear on lead, albeit after practice. 

 I think you missed my point mate, but whatever, I’ll stop banging on now, apologies my generalisation got your back up, I didn’t mean to belittle (or however you read it) Scottish winter climbing.

Your dislikes might have come from folk like me who had to suffer through formal logic as part of their philosophy degrees. From memory, that's not really what RAA is. 

I remember it being to conclude an argument:

If P then not P

Therefore not P. 

You reach a conclusion where your premise is both true and not true simultaneously, so you apply reductio ad absurdum and can only conclude the premise is not true. 

I can't really think how that applies to Greg's new grade XII that you are sceptical about! :⁠-⁠) Although there is a grade II gully in the Arrochar Alps called Philosopher's Gully because we were skiving those philosophy classes on the day Ed and I got the bus out there and did the first ascent!

Why is it that the people with the strongest options (on Scottish winter ethics) are the most likely to post them on the internet, yet are simultaneously the most (significantly) detached from the Scottish winter climbing scene? You, Ramon and Nick B all calling people out for their 'invalid' ascents in the last two weeks (bravo on the ethics police stepping in by the way), yet hardly ever visit Scotland.... did I miss something?

Andy

Without being judgemental, I think that Stone Bastion is the only one of the three which poses an interesting question for the future direction of cutting edge winter climbing.

I believe he was using RAA to justify climbing on a day, when everyone else had retreated to CIC, since conditions were thawing up high. I made my decision and he made his, conditions can only be determined by those individuals on the day.

Stuart 

Really?  Lot's of people care.

You're right, I was making reference to that day in question, not the wider debate. Thanks for noticing.

Stuart 

I guess I’m just old fashioned. Clearly need to keep up with this decade’s developments.

Winter climbing involves wintery terrain. A route which (on the day) has a significant section of dry rock, which is also the crux, is not a proper winter ascent in my old fashioned book. I totally get that this is the direction to end routes are going in. This is not a good development in my humble opinion but I get that you and others disagree. I can totally see your side of it.

Winter climbing traditionally had an onsight ethic. Clearly beyond a certain level this gets difficult or impossible, same as with trad. Hence ground up and pre inspected / headpointed routes are appearing. Fair enough. What I don’t think is legit is placing the gear by dogging, then coming back the following day to climb on pre placed gear. How is that acceptable, particularly at the top end? It wouldn’t be acceptable for a trad route. Winter climbing has historically had an even purer ethic. Does anyone seriously think this is ok? I’m sure winter and trad standards can be pushed significantly higher with this tactic. Somehow, it doesn’t get used at the top end and rarely so at the punter end. I guess that’s because most people would consider this to be cheating.

Well it wasn’t me… although I did once stay at the CIC when the thaw came in overnight, went to have a look at No 3 area because you might as well and walked back out as it clearly wasn’t in.

Guess I wasn’t using the term correctly, Toby is clearly a lot more on the ball here. 

according to my conversion table III,9 roughly equates to D6 on a sunny day and D7 during a gale. 
Usually the table is very precise but gets a bit more rough when being read by visiting parties due to the fact that it’s printed over several pages. It needs a bit of practice to visualise it all.

Clearly, the cutting edge is the preserve of a few.

At my punter’s grade, all I can really do is try to keep my end of the bargain and try to climb routes in fairly consensually acceptable conditions.

 I hear what you have to say about the elite showing the standard of what is acceptable. You couldn’t blame a Formula 1 pilot because some wannabe tried slick tyres on a rainy day, could you?

To me Bring the ruckus is totally fine. It’s proper winter getting there, it’s proper winter below and above the crux. Gear was placed on lead.

Banana wall repeats are fine too, because beyond the headline, their style was described- only the lazy reader could have thought O/S gear placed on lead. 
 

Finally the Stone bastion one, while perhaps a bit thin, was also fine. The guys went repeatedly and finally decided to inspect the last crux due to the length and commitment of the route. Anyone having climbed there in winter will totally get that! It’s now an option for someone to climb it O/S. They know it goes.

Isn’t that the beauty of it all? Style could be slightly improved if stars, conditions and partners align.

Misha, I cannot quite see why you seem so grumpy about it. At best, the routes mentioned above will get a handful of repeats. At worse, nobody will go back on them due to conditions…

What we can get grumpy about is some ignorant visitors pulling the turf out on a classic V or claiming a VII tick of a snowed up route without putting up the proper winter fight that said route deserves. We can tell them, perhaps not too grumpily and in a civil way, “that’s not how we do things here”.

After all, this is a nation that likes being quaint. Drives on the left (only 2 in Europe), eats bizarre food (mint sauce?!?), has a fairly incomprehensible upper chamber in Government… Sure visitors will get confused.

Not just visitors get confused for that matters. Despite 2 decades in, I still get occasionally fooled by the mixed message of : “ that would be lovely” really meaning “I would rather eat my own hands”!!!

What light impact has misunderstandings of winter conditions compared to that bombshell just mentioned???? I find myself in troubled waters making me wish I was being named and shamed on an infamous (and already missed) FB page!

I've only skim read this thread, so apologies if someone has actually touched on this.

This part of the mountain, Gargoyle Wall etc, is really quite loose and requires a decent amount of snow, a thaw and a freeze to set all the loose blocks in place. I'm pretty sure there will be been some exciting rock to hook on this ascent. Maybe it was dry enough to avoid them. I backed off Hobgoblin a few years ago when I though I was going to bring down the crag onto my belayer. 

Personally, having well frozen climbing conditions are more important than some cosmetic white covering with mush underneath. 

There was some stella ice on the Ben on Sunday which would have been a much better choice. 

Climbing frozen lager is a new one on me.   

If they're open and honest about it why does this matter at all? I've got more sympathy for arguments about damaging the rock and ruining summer lines but wrt style of ascent it's all just games with self imposed rules.

I'm just a punter, so what would I know, right? Except if you had a go at me for toproping at stanage or clipping an in-situ nut I'd tell you to mind your own fecking business. No one is accountable to you for the way they choose to climb.

I agree. It's funny the games we climbers play.

This is OK, this is not, that is ok, but that definitely is not.  So why is some traditional thing a must, while other are not required... Why does the route need to look white (and simply not frozen), you say tradition... so why are modern tools, cams, other climbing gear then kosher??? Hobnails, straight axes and hemp ropes is the traditional approach after all...

RM was refering to his experiences on his winter ascent of The Magic Crack which is a 3 star popular summer HVS and he felt uncomfortable with using tools on that route for a winter ascent as it damages a fine crack.

So accountability is looking at the way you climb it and its impact on others.

That is a very thoughful response and not single minded. Respect.

Yes, I absolutely agree. If someone is damaging the rock they're trashing a shared resource and that is everyone's business, but that's a completely separate issue from pre-inspection, or pre-placed gear, or dogging etc.

That's the greatest bit of gatekeepering I've read in a while... 

Hobnail boots did appalling damage to the rock in summer ascents of many popular UK climbs.

Back on subject the most important winter ethic to me is protecting rare flora. I do think climbing damp turf with axes and crampons is unacceptable and effectively dry tooling important summer rock routes is normally a bad idea. Grey areas abound though, especially routes like Bowfell Buttress which first went in winter (even for that, I'd like to think for such routes people would respect the climb and not drag someone up as a second who was climbing in a way that's a long distance from good style).

I'd add that I've climbed stuff around II to IV on wet snow and ice, sometimes even rapidly melting in rain, and although it was doing no damage to anything but the snow and ice, it was more impressively stupid than brave.

To my knowledge some very hard winter routes have been inspected from above, using SRT techniques for 40 years. The first ascent of Strawberries involved pre clipped gear up to the high point. At the time this was certainly cutting edge.

I know and even saw some of the marks from hobnail boots on grit...

But my point is simple... why are some traditional things to be valued, and other not...

As we have already stated, a fully rimed and thus white climb, well get scratched (actually a lot more, were it less rimed as you could place your tools and crampons more precisely)... So it is not due to the protection... then there needs to be another reason (harder, looks nicer, etc.), but then doing it with a hemp rope around your waist is also harder, why is that not traditionally required.

The engineer in me, really wants to under stand the logic when is something ok, and not ok.

Naked free soloing is ok, everything else is aid.

To be crystal clear Andy, I didn't call the girls ascent of Babylon "invalid" as you say. I said it was rock climbing with axes (which it is). They can climb whatever the want for all I care. Damn it, I will tell them to get on Pale Diedre next! But I found it incredibly hypocritical from you to call my opinion "detached" when you gave such a hard time to Hellen and Dave when they did the God Delusion in better nick than these girls did Babylon. If now your ethic is that it's all fair game because your Scottish mates have bent the rules a little bit that's fine with me. All I said is that I personally felt uncomfortable damaging classic rock routes by drytooling them and decided to walk away from that type of climbing. If somehow I offended you with that, I do apologise.

So there have been no valid winter ascents of Crypt Route?

What's wrong with mint sauce? I know I am British but have spent a long time living abroad, and of all the odd things about the UK when seen from the outside, mint sauce never struck me as one of them!

It doesn't feel like a winter experience, it is a winter experience because it's winter. Sure there is cross over in techniques between snowed up rock climbing and DT but they're not the same thing. In fact, given that people were using axes on snowed up rock in Scotland long before DT was ever thought of it's probably more accurate to say that dry tooling is a bit like snowed up rock rather than snowed up rock is like dry tooling.

You need to ask??? There’s not a hope in hell we can ever try to discuss winter climbing ethics…

You decided to stop mixed climbing after climbing Magic Crack and thinking it was out of order on a classic summer line - fair enough. Although, the best mixed routes for me are the ones that aren't classic summer routes too and are vegetated, maybe loose in summer and have some smears of ice too. Scotland has plenty of routes like this even at a high level on cliffs like Creag Meagaidh and Beinn Bhan.

I think this is a really good point to be made. In recent seasons I’ve been erring away from established summer routes and aiming for more out and out winter lines with a few exceptions. I’ve climbed certain routes in summer that I would never dream of attempting in winter because they’re just very special routes to me for that season and I wouldn’t want to damage them in any way for someone coming along in summer (Magic Crack, Centurion etc etc.), not that I could probably climb them anyways!

There was of course a period of time where climbing established summer routes in winter was the done thing and it made sense. Psychologically speaking, it might be easier to break it down that it was mentally more manageable to do this as you knew it went one way or another. This diminishes nothing of the difficulty of the routes, these climbs are and always will be hard routes, often heavily influenced by the conditions.

When Richardson and Cartwright opened up account on Creag Coire na Ciste in the mid-late 90’s with the likes Cornucopia, Darth Vader, Babylon and South Sea Bubble, they totally blew the game wide open and showed a lot of people that there was strong winter only lines still do be done (of which a lot are still waiting to be found). They continued to do this for years and I think this is the real cutting edge stuff in modern day terms. With the equipment we now have, it’s probably possible to do many of the big summer classic lines with tools. But that ultimately might seem quite dull for the people doing new routes or operating at high levels.

FWIW, I was on the Ben on Sunday and seen the top of Babylon totally bare, glowing in the sunlight. A pal and myself had a chuckle that it would be in good VS condition on the day and then found some nice easy ice to climb because that’s what you do when the routes you want to climb aren’t in condition. It’s not really rocket science, it’s just common sense and understanding local ethics. 

just to go back to the original point here. 

I was climbing ice on the Ben (two step corner) the same day the guys were on that and came back down via number four. The air temperature was above freezing and in no way could the crags in Corrie Na Ciste  be considered in condition for mixed climbing. Unfortunately a poor choice for such an experienced party,  especially when the ice was in good condition.

I actually sent them a measured (not overly accusatory) private message when i saw the post go up, to give them a heads up it would inevitably cause a shit storm somewhere on the internet, we had a nice interaction, I think they took my point well, and we will probably have a nice interaction next time we meet in person. not sure public lynching is all that necessary for visiting climbers especially in 2023. 

I guess a couple of points on the wider discussion. Ethics / customs develop slowly over time with consensus from an involved community. I think people in the scottish winter climbing community operating at the highest level who've been in the scene for a long time, and who know conditions and mountains very well (e.g. Greg / Guy / Dave Mac) are in a position where they should have a social license (to borrow a planning phrase) to slowly push the boundaries of what Scottish winter customs are, but as a visiting climber, with a high profile, and climbing lower grade classic routes it is just good courtesy to follow local rules / ethics and play it on the safe side (especially when temperates are actually above freezing). 

I think it's also not totally fair to compare photos from crag to crag as nuance with the conditions and ethics at each venue get lost. Climbing sandstone or metamorphic rock (which rarely rimes up as much as the rock on the ben) when it is well below freezing with bomber turf is a bit difficult to compare to climbing a route like that on the ben which is rimed up so much of the year and especially when the air temperature is warm and its a loose, vegetated route. The ice was certainly drippy that day but I'm not sure what condition the turf would be in. 

Anyway good to remember that beyond not climbing unfrozen turf all these rules we set ourselves are totally arbitrary. we'd be much better off directing some of this outrage at the loss of access to the top carpark, the blocking of parking spaces by the forestry commission, and the fact that between the BMC / SMC / forestry commission / Visit Scotland (or whoever is relevant) we haven't managed to put a composting toilet in one of the busiest car parks in the highlands.    

Thankfully there's been very little talk about 'validity' of ascents (just Misha above?), but surely folk like Ramon, Misha, Nick, Pete MacPherson, Robert Durran etc have done enough winter stuff in the past to be qualified to comment, even if they no longer winter climb? 

Agree re ‘educating’ visitors but they might reasonably look at the photo of Bring da Rukus and say that they don’t see the difference.

Not sure the F1 analogy is quite right as a F1 track is very different to a motorway. Whereas with climbing we climb at the same crags as the top climbers, which is one of the great things about climbing.

I do think that claiming a significant ascent of a route where the gear was pre placed the day before on a dogged go is a bit of a joke. At the very least, the style of ascent needs to be clear from the social media posts so that people don’t assume it was a better style.

I read Dave’s explanation and thought that it was rather odd. A top climber surely knows that their SM posts will be subject to a fair bit of scrutiny. Like it or not, that’s part and parcel of being a top climber these days, particularly a sponsored climber or someone who makes their living from climbing in some way. If they don’t want scrutiny or don’t have time to post about the style etc, they can just hold off posting or not post at all. 

Perhaps I should have removed ‘particularly’. At the top end, I think it’s fair to expect people to climb in a generally acceptable style if they are going to claim the ascent. They can do whatever they like if they don’t claim it. This is important because what the top climbers do sets the tone for everyone else. It’s also reasonable to expect high standards from someone who makes their living from climbing one way or another.

Agree that being open and honest about the style. The initial Insta posts were not specific about the style, for whatever reason. It may have been oversight or lack of time but my point is that it’s reasonable to expect top climbers to pay attention to such things.

Strawberries was done at a time when ethics were still evolving. Yo yo style isn’t generally acceptable these days (unless you climb down). I suspect if yo  yo was similarly unacceptable at the time, Ron would have done it ground up.

Examples of winter routes being pre inspected are fairly rare but in any case the Banana Wall shenanigans involved a lot more than abseil pre inspection!

Direct that outrage at Highland Council.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between social media (limited word count, quick posts from a mobile phone with a picture) with a blog (considered content usually typed on a computer at leisure) and a news item (quickly hashed together from various sources after firing off the odd email). 

To think that we should ban sponsored climbers from making 'quick social media posts' after a long day on the hill because they don't meet a journalistic standard is, quite frankly, ludicrous.

Quite a spread of experience there and I'm not sure all of those individuals actually have done enough to be qualified to comment. But fortunately this is the interwebs where that doesn't matter. 😀

Well put Graham. And I think very balanced & decent. Most importantly pointing out our inherent shortsightedness and insularity. The abscence of a composting loo and effect on all the non climbers ie. Majority, is a bit like their abscence on the NC100…WTF! A cheap fix for local authority that might have a lasting impact on how everyone views treasuring their natural world. 

Apart from the fact that BDR was actually frozen and white, Babylon was absolutely not in condition on Sunday. I can tell you that because I was there, on the ground, and seen it with my own eyes. BDR on the other hand, was climbed in the middle of an extended deep freeze and even from the photos side on was actually white and completely fair game. 

You seem to be holding very tightly to this idea that BDR was “out of condition”. I don’t know if this is just you holding onto a principle of what you initially thought and are reluctant to admit you might be in the wrong, or whether that’s actually what you think. 

As per the other thread, all of Dave Mac’s explanation of his and Callum’s ascent was on his blogpost and if you couldn’t be bothered to look there for more info rather than simply what you seen on his social media post then that’s your problem, not his. 

Well it depends on the exact topic obviously, and some opinions count more than others, but I'd have thought regular and keen mid-grade winter climbers, and even now-retired ones, should be qualified enough to comment on winter conditions and style/ethics. I don't agree with Misha, but you don't get to VII through just doing the odd day here and there.

Trust me yo yo wasn’t acceptable then and Ron wanted the ascent before anyone else, possibly John Redhead did it. Way back I commented in an article for Extreme Rock I wrote about routes at Tremadog that yo yo was unacceptable and delusional and it still is.

You've made me determined to serve lamb with mint sauce to my new French neighbours (in France) soon

I'll report back...

Good luck, first time my now wife (French) & myself visited my sister in England she served mince sauce with roast lamb. My was polite but later moaned that the overcooked lamb was completely ruined by the sauce. Tried to point out that the sauce was served separately & it wasn't obligatory but didn't make much difference.

Pointing out that she likes mint tea didn't go down to well either.

I disagree, style matters and if you are a pro climber (in the sense of making a living from climbing in some way) and have the time and inclination to put out a post, you should mention the style. It really isn’t hard. Or just wait till you have time. Not many people read blogs. 

Agree and so Ron didn’t really make the FA. 

It is what I think. If a significant section of rock is dry and it also happens to be the crux, the route is not in as far as I’m concerned. I totally get that most people today seem to disagree. I suspect the balance of opinion would have been quite different 20 years ago. I don’t really care but it’s the thin end of the wedge. Mark my words…

I initially gave the Babylon climbers the benefit of the doubt but judging by the reports here from people who were there on the day, it really wasn’t in condition (not just the section in the photo). I can understand though why Alps based climbers didn’t think much of it.

I disagree re Instagram vs blogs. I bet about 100 times more people saw the Instagram post than read the blog. The Gram is where it’s at these days.

Indeed, don’t think I’ve ever been mentioned in the same breath as Bullock or MacPherson and I don’t deserve to be. That’s not the point though. As Michael Gordon says, anyone who has done a reasonable amount of winter climbing can have a reasonable view on conditions. There are nuances like NW routes being rarely rimed up and photos from below looking less wintery but generally people can make a reasonable assessment.

My point (which most people seem to disagree with - by 2:1 based on the ‘likes’ on my original post re Greg’s route) is that a large section of dry rock which is also the crux is not ‘in’. I do not deny that the rest of the route was ‘in’. I can see that from the photos, as can anyone else. It’s just that I have a different view on what I think is acceptable. I can see why others disagree though.

My criticism of the BW ascents has nothing to do with conditions. It’s not even to do with winter climbing - it’s a wider point about what style of ascent is acceptable for a top end route in a ‘trad’ discipline where the standard approach is for the protection to be placed by the leader, on lead. 

Not wishing to be controversial, but I think part of the problem was that the original report on UKC was compiled by someone whose only experience of climbing is doing some HVS's at Stanage and it's therefore understandable that they don't get the nuances of Scottish Winter Climbing.

Well Ron being Ron, he grudgingly did. He did the same skullduggery  placing a bolt on Cad when others had top roped it clean, but it was left to Pete Whillance to grow a pair. The Boldest is another example of a bolt being only E2 and on sight soloed by Al Rouse. Climbing is full of underhand tactics and if you know you know. Pete Livesey was called the Michelangelo  of British rock for his deftness with a hammer and chisel and even sometimes claiming an ascent before he’d actually done it to burn off the opposition. The tales are legion and as most activists and protagonists are now at least late 60,s 70,s they may well be lost. For interested parties Peak Rock outlines quite a few.