How steep are the lower grade winter routes really on Ben Nevis

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 alamik 08 Feb 2023

Hi,

How steep in degrees are the steepest bits of some of the II-III grade climbs on Ben Nevis like Number Two Gully, Raeburn's Easy Route, Good Friday Climb, or Tower Scoop on what one might call average February/March conditions?


Not looking for exact figures but ballparks just to gain some perspective and hone in on what I want to climb since the lower Scottish winter grades are somewhat nebulously defined and some less reliable routes like Gardyloo Gully appear to have a great deal of variability in their steepness depending on condition

Thanks

1
 DaveHK 08 Feb 2023
In reply to alamik:

60-70 degrees on the steepest sections less on average.

Post edited at 15:52
 JLS 08 Feb 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

How much does the OP need to worry about cornices on the routes he's considering? Is it safe to assume someone will almost certainly have already chopped a route through the cornice on those routes?

Post edited at 16:16
 MrRiley 08 Feb 2023
In reply to alamik:

The answer, of course, is; it depends! If you want some numbers I believe the winter grading for ice climbs is explained in the intro of the SMC guides and steepness of the hardest sections is given. Up to 70 degrees for short sections on grade III I think.

IMHO you need to have some basic ice climbing technique to be safe leading a grade III. Grade II you can normally get away without much experience of pure ice climbing (vs steep snow climbing), as the pure ice sections tend not to be that steep or sustained. Of course any grade II in lean conditions may be harder, eg Gardyloo.

Tower Scoop has a bit of a rep for being steeper and more sustained than expected, so if you're in any doubt it's probably not one to "go for it" on.  The other thing to factor in is how much traffic the route has seen - a ladder of steps up Green Gully will for sure be easier than unmolested ice on Tower Scoop!

 Sean Kelly 08 Feb 2023
In reply to MrRiley:

> Tower Scoop has a bit of a rep for being steeper and more sustained than expected, so if you're in any doubt it's probably not one to "go for it" on.  The other thing to factor in is how much traffic the route has seen - a ladder of steps up Green Gully will for sure be easier than unmolested ice on Tower Scoop!

...or unmolested powder on Tower Scoop!

 Root1 08 Feb 2023
In reply to alamik:

Ice tends to feel steeper than it actually is.

 pec 08 Feb 2023
In reply to alamik:

> Hi,

> How steep in degrees are the steepest bits of some of the II-III grade climbs on Ben Nevis like Number Two Gully, Raeburn's Easy Route, Good Friday Climb, or Tower Scoop

My recollection is that Tower Scoop is as steep as a lot of grade IVs, just not for as long but it's the steepest grade III I've climbed and considerably steeper than No.2 gully.

 HeMa 09 Feb 2023
In reply to alamik:

I guess they are steep enough, that a skier coming down said climb will not be a major hazard... but can't be completely out ruled either.

 NathanP 09 Feb 2023
In reply to alamik:

When I did No. 2 gully, it didn't seem very steep at all - maybe 50° at the narrow icy bit? The very lip of the cornice was steep, of course, but short and there was already a bit of a slot cut through it from previous traffic. On the other hand, it is pretty long and there is a lot of slightly less steep ground to cover. If you are pitching it all it would be a long undertaking with few decent runners or belays (good rock belay before the steep bit).

Tower Scoop was much steeper - 75°, I'd guess. It seemed steeper than Green Gully. Very much swinging axes directly above my head to get placements. Much shorter though and with solid ice that would take good screws. 

 rif 09 Feb 2023
In reply to alamik:

Raeburn's and No.2 are far easier than the other two. Raeburn's only had a short stretch of easy-angled ice when I did it, followed by a long diagonal snowfield. No.2 can have very short 60-ish deg steps (as in Daniela's profile pic), but often the steepest part is the cornice. The crux of Good Friday isn't particularly steep (60-70 deg from memory) but there's a long exposed approach on steep snow and a steep snow exit to the plateau. As others have said, Tower Scoop has a short bulge at the top that's steeper than anything on the other three.

Other possibilities at II/III include Gardyloo (more like III than II each time I've done it) and No.2 Buttress (more like II than III in my experience).

 JLS 09 Feb 2023

In reply to Daniela:

That's not really how you measure an angle of a slope.  You'd have to be observing from the side (rather than some random oblique angle) for that to work.

Edit: Looks about 65deg. to me.

Post edited at 11:55
 Doghouse 09 Feb 2023
In reply to alamik:

80 degree ice feels vertical when you're on it, vertical ice feels overhanging. ..   well, it does to me anyway

 LakesWinter 09 Feb 2023
In reply to Doghouse:

That's true because of the body position when climbing ice - vertical ice means you have to hang out a bit to swing etc

 HeMa 09 Feb 2023
In reply to JLS:

Indeed, or perhaps even a tad less...

Your in the steep (for skiing) kind of degrees (mid 60s) when standing straight you lift your arm vertical and your fingers touch the slope... Not happening here.

1
 Graeme G 09 Feb 2023

In reply to Daniela:

I'm no massively experienced climber but there's no way that ice is 81 degrees. Just look at how relaxed your stance is. Ice axes low down and far out from your body. As other have said 80 degrees feels, and looks vertical. 

Doesn't diminish the quality of the climb. It looks in great condition and hugely enjoyable.

 pec 09 Feb 2023
In reply to alamik:

> I guess they are steep enough, that a skier coming down said climb will not be a major hazard... but can't be completely out ruled either.

Not a likely occurrence but if someone actually was skiing down number 2 gully whilst you were climbing it, that would be a major hazard.

It does get skied fairly often I believe, there's a few YouTube videos of it.

To the OP, this suggests it's 54 degrees though obviously conditions can alter that 

https://fatmap.com/discover/route/united-kingdom/highland/ski-touring/numbe...

 Michael Gordon 09 Feb 2023
In reply to rif:

> Raeburn's and No.2 are far easier than the other two. Raeburn's only had a short stretch of easy-angled ice when I did it, followed by a long diagonal snowfield. >

Yes, the main skill needed for Raeburn's is probably route finding since every other way there is more difficult. And both are a step up from Ledge Route which is more like a grade I in a serious situation.

 Euge 16 Mar 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

> 60-70 degrees on the steepest sections less on average.

Not on some of the cornice exits... #2 gully was extremely steep last weekend, as was Gardyloo

Euge


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