UKH

Hi,

Im looking to start pushing my grade a litle this winter so I am therefore looking for routes which are hard yet very safe sort of V7 maybe VI8's

Can anbody give me any reccomendations.

Thanks!

I'd be interested to hear similar recommendations for steep sporty style routes with good hooks and gear

Over the weekend i did the hoarmaster and stirling bomber which both felt like this!

There are heaps to choose from, just look at routes with those grades! Although V7 is probably more common that VI8. The vast majority of VI7s are also generally well protected.

I'm note sure any winter route is going to be 'very' safe. There are quite a few which are reasonably safe in decent conditions (even a reasonably safe route can be bold when heavily verglassed). With that in mind, most V 6s and VI 7s will be reasonably safe on the cruxes.

The Eastern Ramparts and Far East Buttress on Beinn Eighe are meant to be like that.

Gully of the Gods and Great Overhanging Gully on Beinn Bhan have some steep sections with decent kit.

Darth Vader - steep moves out of the belay cave with decent gear, you do have to climb above the gear but you'd be falling into space.

Babylon has a couple of steep moves on good gear on the crux pitch.

I'd go to Newtyle for sporty style routes though...

Given the op's criteria Gully of the Gods is about as bad a recommendation as it's possible to make! It's VI6, icy mixed or even mainly ice on the crux and was pretty bold when we did it. The gear must vary a lot with the ice if you found it well protected. Plus, it's a really intimidating place to push your grade.

I'd say Glen Coe and Cairngorms are the way to go for that.

I don't know much about Scottish winter climbing, but Shang High, Kamikaze and pretty much everything else I did at Beinn Eighe felt like that. Really good gear, really good hooks and placements (hero hooks) and sporty, steep moves. My sort of thing. Also, Nearthenthal in Lost Valley buttress felt like that. 

It wasn’t fat ice when I did it, may be a red or yellow screw in an ice blob but seem to recall there was some rock gear not too far away. It’s intimidating as you say but not as hard as it looks!

I was going to mention Neanderthal and the top pitch is like that but the start of the first pitch is quite bold and insecure, was glad I was seconding that pitch!

I didn't think so, there's good hooks, a big good hex above the belay and a good blue cam right after it. But maybe it was my keeness? 

Having done a few VIIs in Coe, Neanderthal is probably the most run out of them all, a poor choice in my opinion!

Going up that corner on P3, pulling over that block, finishing up short, steep ice....my last rock runner was some distance below! Awesome route thought.

Stuart

Ok fair enough, I didn't lead P3 and it seem that my partner got a lot of gear. But as I said, I don't know much about scottish winter climbing. So, Neardenthal is out 

Stating the obvious and probably teaching your granny how to suck eggs:

I don't think you will find very safe in winter. I mean, you could climb something like an utter spanner at your limit, completely boxed and knowing that stopping means falling...before you know it the lob on good gear is massive. How can you tell the fall will be clean? Not that I speak from experience or anything...like...err...

You will find safeish routes, which when climbed in optimum conditions (see below) will provide you with what you want :

1)fully frozen- NW hook fests unfrozen are scary to suicidal, unfrozen turf is terrifyingly insecure

2)white- to meet ethical requirments of "winter climbing"

3)but presenting dry cracks -not verglassed/ice choked .

So firing away any old route name is almost random as I might have found it a V,7 in optimum nick and you could climb it the next day at Horrible, un-protectable VI,7 or even VII,7 or sometimes ice makes it easier to climb but desperately bold  at VI,6 or even VII,6.

Also to take into account is that the supposedly easier access pitches may well be super serious. That is what I found on Tango in the Night (VI 7). I got the "crux" tech 7 pitch which was steep but mostly on hero hooks with mega chokestones to be threaded. My partner had a surprisingly involved tech 5 pitch 1 and an incredibly loose tech 5 pitch 3... no doubt in my mind who saved the day and deserves the crown on that day.

A long post and no answers then... 

It has already been mentioned and is the obvious suggestion but stirling bomber felt hard, steep and safe to me. It is the hardest thing I have led to date but I was never scared on it. I guess there is potential to fall on the traverse at the top and swing back into the corner but at least the gear is very good.

It gets V7. Some people may say it is VI7. I haven't done enough at the grade to say.

That's interesting, I thought P3 was fine for gear and that was leading it (in the dark). It was the lower half of P2 that was concerning and that was seconding it (my partner agreed)! Just goes to show how variable winter climbing conditions are.

Not in Scotland but Traversty on Clogwyn Ddu is pretty save for an VIII - I've taken the lob! The hard section involves climbing down with good wires to protect you from above, then teetering across a steep slab to the belay. No gear on the slab but you've got good wires to the side and if you fall off you end up in space - I can testify to that, having stupidly pinged off at the end of the traverse!

I did it around 2007, having failed on it previously back in 96' (only reminiscing!).

P3. I couldn't place cams in corner below block, icy. Above block a pillar of ice had to be surmounted, only protected by Bulldog. I REALLY didn't want to fall.......

Back in the day, it was originally suggested VIII, 7, mentions about finishing up ice in Guide.

Regards

Stuart

Was that in the old Glen Coe guide where suggested new grades were listed in a separate section? If so several of them were out of kilter and got changed before later guides were published.

Yes, that's the one.

Stuart

I led the top pit ch which felt safe, but I was glad I wasn't leading the thrutchy wide bit below to get into the chimney!

I led pitches two and three together in one of my rare hero moments.

Another suggestion for the original post is Flake route right hand in Bidean nam bien. I did this by mistake intending to do Crypt Route but find it well protected with one hard move.

Yes, I've done that - the initial corner is short, hard and very safe. However, you still have to do the quite nasty bold top pitch of West Chimney Route, and when we did it there was some insecure buried climbing to join WCR.

I thought V,6 for Stirling Bomber (incidentally, thought the same for Hooker's Corner after finally getting round to doing it last weekend). Found both of them easier than Hoarmaster!

Is that the same as the pitch on Crypt/Flake Route original? I remember it as being one tech 5 move next to bomber gear, but obviously conditions will vary...

Probably......... !

I thought P1 of Hooker’s was a tough VI 7 in early season conditions around this time last year. Not done P1 of The Hoarmaster but would agree Sterling Bomber is about right at V 6. It felt pretty secure, whereas Hooker’s didn’t! May be because I was seconding and so not climbing very well but still...

I think Hoarmaster was my first V 6 and it seemed about right at that.

North Wall Groove, Cobbler, was my first V,6.

Happy with Stirling bomber V,7, Hoarmaster has better footholds and ledges.

Are you playing with Erick at weekend?

Stuart

They all sound fair to me!

I'm in full on running mode just now. Not planning to do any winter climbing this year.

He'll miss you......

Stuart

I know what you mean. Felt as though I struggled more on a couple of pitches I seconded the day before, even though I don't think they were any harder and I'd previously led one of them!

Really? I know I'm not alone in having found it thin and quite bold and probably more like VI,6, and I can only assume the mossy tufts on the crux have got even thinner in the 15 or so years since!

Edit: The logbook on here seems to back me up........

That does seem to be the consensus (and I agree). Definitely a hard first V,6!

I would say the same for Hoarmaster - better protected but pretty sustained. Though thinking about it, it may have had about a foot of rime on either wall...

Yip, traverse across slab and reach for lump of turf..... which was still there in 96'.

Have done it twice again since, that move is certainly harder these days!

Stuart

Traverse across slab, go back..........
Traverse across slab, go back..........
Traverse across slab, go back..........
Traverse across slab, go back..........
........................................................and eventually reach for the lump and commit to teetering on up..........

NWG had that rep even back in the mid 90s. We got to the bottom of the top corner a couple of times but wimped out and did North Wall Traverse instead.

Menage a Trois was my first V,6. My mate led the crux but it all seemed quite safe. We did Pas de Deux a week or so later, I did the crux pitch on that and that was a bit more airy and run out!

I'll miss the climbing but if I'm serious about a winter Ramsay Round I don't have time or head space to climb too.

Kind of felt like a break up when I told him!

One that springs to mind, and that I enjoyed, was Watch Out (VI 8) just to the right of the Seam. 

Re North Wall Groove.

I don't recall much about the difficulty, just that it was a question of committing to it and that it was a great climb! Need to check when we did it Stuart. I did lead that crux pitch though...didn't I?

You did break my heart asunder! I'll never be the same again...anyone keen for an outing this Sunday

Yes, you lead crux. Think we did direct start into Sesame Groove, there was much snow too.

Was it maybe over Christmas period, not long after you'd moved from Glasgow?

Stuart