UKH

Hi Folks,

Over the years I have developed a problem with cold hands and I now have to accept it may be a safety concern as occasionally my hands stay too cold for too long to properly use my hands to hold my axe or hold rocks.  I'm concerned that this could compromise my safety.

The problem seems to be getting heat back into the hands once cold - it takes a very very long time, even after donning gloves and or mitts.

I just wondered whether anyone has experimented with the rather cheap carbon fibre heating pads (I believe they can run from a single L-ion or Lipo cell per pad, or from a power bank).  Not thinking of running for long periods, just as a means of restoring the hands when the need arises.

Or is it time to avoid the coldest weather?

 

After all, if technology was good enough to keep hands warm on the moon, why not in the mountains?

In reply to wercat:

Yes I have, for use in my motorbike gloves. For the price, they are pretty good. The main limiter is what you use to power them.

In reply to wercat:

In the good old days people used to wear mittens, specifically Millar Mitts when walking. Looks like they must have been shooters' mitts: 

https://www.grahamsonline.co.uk/product/sportac-mitt?version=17622&gcli...

 

In reply to wercat:

You say it takes a long time to get them warm even after donning gloves... does this mean you are taking your gloves off to do tasks? 

If so, better to find some gloves that you are able to do all your climbing admin whilst wearing. Plus, leashes, wide wrist straps bite in less and help circulation. Relax, don't grip the axe tighter than you need, or a slight relax and regrip. Keep that blood moving. I presume your body is warm, if your core is cooling, the body will preserve heat by sending less to the extremities. 

In reply to wercat:

It's something of an investment, but you could consider these: 

https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/hestra-power-heater-5-finger-gloves/ 

Certainly solves the problem in an elegant way. 

In reply to wercat:

I'm a martyr to cold hands and understand precisely what you mean about trying to restore circulation - when they're gone they're gone! I'm led to believe it's a mild form of what's known as Reynaud's Syndrome.

I've tried everything - electric heated gloves (expensive, heavy, bulky and I found of limited worth. Mind you this wa syears ago - maybe they're better now?), re-usable gel handwarmers (no good as they get really hot but only for a few minutes then just dead weight to carry around all day), chemical handwarmers (£1 a pair; get some they're good. I always have them. Get them unpacked and "started" before you leave the warmth as in v cold conditions they're sometimes reluctant to "start"), prescription drugs even (I have a sympathetic GP, but I knocked them off after a few years).

Persevere. Risk getting overheated body to pump blood to fingers. Do the arm pumping thing to encourage blood flow. If all else fails get those fingers under your armpits next to the skin. I've found there's nowt better than good old fashioned Dachstein Mitts for wearing when not climbing or belaying. If you want be trendier and extravagant get some primaloft insulated mitts. Have two pairs of climbing gloves, good ones, with the 2nd pair under your arms as close to your skin as you can get 'em. 

I've had the problem all my life and it got worse after bouts of frostnip and one of mild frostbite (black finger ends and lost nails) culminating in much discomfort till I began to take precautions and care as described above. Oddly now, at the age of 73, it's improving slightly - managed to climb ice last week at minus 10c.

Good luck.

In reply to Martin Bennett:

Also if you get frost nip then those digits are more vulnerable for at least a year. Perhaps forever, if it's bordering on frost bite. The cell or capillarie damage is slow to repair. 

In reply to summo:

Unfortunately I think it is an age thing - it's been getting progressively worse for 10 years or so -  I can be in a sweat with cold hands!  I'm OK as long as there isn't a cold wind, so that means about 0.08% of early winter days.   It's a lot less bad in March of course when the days are a little warmer.

The problem is that they take so long to get warm again - I find mittens much better than gloves but you can't don crampons with mittens unfortunately.  

In reply to Martin Bennett:

I've actually ordered a couple of heat pads as an experiment - I'm going to try them with Lithium Ion batteries as I have a plentiful supply and they are not heavy.  I'm OK when I'm moving until they get cold then I just can't get the warmth back so that is when I'd use them - but if they are no good your chemical heat packs may be the answer.  Or perhaps I can pipe warm water from the overhot area between my rucsack and back

In reply to All:

 

Many thanks for the comments - I'll let you know how the experiments go when the stuff eventually arrives.  Heated Dachsteins perhaps?

 

In reply to Rigid Raider:

Just looked ( no family connection )

Not mitts but fingerless gloves.

The best mitts I have ever found were the HH polar mittens, now very hard to find except in kids sizes. 

If anybody has some size 9 or 10 adult ones , I will buy them off you.

Also if anybody is looking for mitts search on mittens as mitts is slang.

The HH mitts are amazing , your hands can place most gear in them and quickly warm up if you have to fiddle with them off.

They dry so quickly that after walking off a winter Scottish route they are dry enough to use next day. Try that with any modern glove!

In reply to wercat: I'm in exactly the same position as you - I've lost track of the number of people who have helpfully sung the praises of all kinds of gloves/mitts but  I realise that we are all different and one person's Chamonix Binman's gloves might be fantastic for them but are hopeless for me.

I also find that I need a blast of external heat and no amount of groping my armpits or groin is going to help.

As a last ditch measure before I give up winter activities I've purchased a Hotrox double sided electronic handwarmer.

So far so good - it sits in a plastic bag in my coat pocket and once my hands are starting to hit the point of no return I can switch it on and get a blast of lovely heat.

The manufacturer suggests it should last 3 hours but so far I've found it only needs a 15 minute blast to get some heat back and then I can put on my big mitts, so it has been lasting me throughout the day.

If you don't like it you can always use it as a phone charger!

In reply to wercat:

As an alternative I use something very similar for backache or period pains and they do stay warm for hours.  These are smaller to fit in gloves.  https://www.raynaudsdisease.com/hotteeze-hand-warmer-pack-of-10.html

In reply to wercat:

You have my sympathy wercat. Following surgery on my right hand, I have very poor circulation in my fingers. What works for me is a pair of Dachstein mitts or slightly more dextrous, a pair of Buffalo mitts. In really cold weather I have an XXL pair of Buffalo over the smaller pair! I find the "looser" the better as any tightness just exasperate the problem.

In reply to wercat:

The best thing I’ve found is taping some of the disposable chemical hand warmers to the inside of your wrists. Not a magic bullet but helps my hands even with bad reynauds. 

I’ve tried the ridiculously expensive OR heated gloves and they are good but still got numb hands, needs more testing I think but don’t think they were better than the hand warmers trick.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Agreed about the HH mitts, and it looks like they may be available again:

https://www.hellyhansen.com/en_gb/hh-polar-mittens-67753

I only found them yesterday so not worked out if they're same as the originals.

I wear buffalo mitts. I can put on crampons wearing them and climb fairly hard. 

Cheers, Ross 

In reply to ross:

Hallelujah .

Hopefully not too thick a shell, must try to get some , thanks for the heads up.

I have regularly visited  the HH website but got bored and not looked for a couple of years.

In reply to wercat:

Have to agree with Martin, sounds a lot like Reynauds. 

He gives excellent helpful advice. Here's my twopence worth.

I find best to use thin inner gloves (Decathlon are cheap, durable and dry quickly) and never ever take em off - except for new dry ones. Then good mitts with teabag handwarmers between the two. I find wind more of an enemy than damp. Be prepared to buy lots of mitts...

Teabag handwarmers are the only things I found that work and have completely transformed winter for me. Have a minimum of two (they seem to turn randomly off and on again, weirdly). They also go out of date so keep an eye. Try different brands. 

At the end of the day you just have to learn to climb and rig in mitts. At my woeful grade, it's no harder climbing with two axes when wearing mitts than gloves. Rigging in mitts, well, I feel like a penguin trying to play the piano...but I do it. 

Be flexible and experiment. Consider if leading or seconding works better - easier to derig in mitts than to rig? Or do your hands freeze up whilst the leader keeps toasty building bucket seats and snow bollards? You may need to allow more time or do shorter routes to stop to manage your hands. Get a patient partner! I find that gullys are noticeably better than ridges - more sheltered. Soloing is much easier of course, less so if you fall...

It's definitely doable. Perhaps try mixing it up with ski touring (alpine or nordic) - easier on the hands.  

Good luck. It's totally worth it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In reply to wercat:

A few random tips to keep hands warm:

- Shoulders being out of alignment (e.g. impingement, or near-impingement, "climber's back") can reduce circulation to the arms, if that is a possibility - get onto the shoulder physio.
- Valsalva maneuver (glottal variation) is a good tactic to keep warm, if you're not already doing it.
- As mentioned above, lots of liner gloves is worth giving a shot. I wore them alone in -20 on Sunday, and hands weren't cold at all. After the pitch, over-mitts went on for belaying.
- Another interesting glove approach is 'cleaning gloves' (non-flexible, vinyl, washing up-style gloves, not tight at the wrist to allow going over the jacket) worn over liner gloves. These are 100% waterproof, and are perfect for lots of wet snow / wet ice where it's wetness rather than coldness that is the problem. Again, keep swapping the liners out.

In reply to marsbar:

At that price well worth a try I think and not heavy to carry.

Obanish - yes that was what I was thinking - the problem is restoring circulation once cold.   Ironically liner gloves sometimes make this worse by insulating the fingers from each other so they can't give mutual warming or touch the palm.  I was thinking in terms of a restoring blast of heat rather than continuous use.

It's got a bit worse as I have some finger injuries following little finger dislocation on both hands and I was warned that that would damage nerves and blood supply.

In reply to Martin Bennett:

Lots of good advice,   I'll take note - I think the answer may be a whole lot of small things but agree about Dachsteins, being a lifelong user.   Wind is definitely the problem so perhaps I also need to plan to do things needing dexterity when there is some wind protection available.  Some years ago I stopped taking cold drinks out in winter as I found this had a really bad effect - as has hot coffee as well, oddly so alternative hot drinks are better for me.

In reply to wercat:

Some ideas.

1. Since austerity...and rising prices..clothing manufacturers have maintained profit margins by cutting back on materials including gloves and sizes have tightened etc The result is overtight gloves. Mild circulation problems are then affected. If your between sizes, in the shop, youll try on the nice fitting ones, but they probably don't trap enough warm air. Ignore the size and get a slightly larger pair than you might expect. My view is the quality of the barrier and trapping enough warm air within the insulation.

2. Go for a micro thin knitted liner (left on permanently) and the higher grade insulation original/oldstyle furry fleece removeable liner in a gauntlet style glove. eg An expensive black diamond ski glove for Canada type

3, Carry Wool (Dachstein type) gloves as an inner and various other inners so you can try combinations and swap them around keeping dry.

I may carry 4 pairs of gloves typically, but cannot climb and place gear in tight fitters, I alway seem to have to take off the glove to do stuff so a gauntlet without tight shaping leather and non stick liner for easy re admittance helps.

4. Always..try to do the first pitch ...youll stay warmer than usual as you wont cool down after walking in.

5. At stances do ten limb swings slowly, throwing the blood down to your fingers. arm, arm, leg, leg repeat. Gives you something to do as well.

6. Train for winter. go out on the hills gloveless for a run, carry some stones, run with hands above head and make climbing actions like clenching flicking. do this at a quiet time to save embararssent. Farmers apparently don't get hotaches.

7. wear neck scarf, buffs variously. thin cashmere socks in wool socks.

8, no gloves work, No gloves last...gloves the perennial problem. so try to get 90 % there at the cheapest price.