UKH

Hi,
There are 4 of us climbing near Aviemore until the 7th, but we've only managed to rent 3 trancievers between us. Can anyone lend us one (or more - they're super expensive even to rent and we're poor poor students!).

Thanks
Omar

In reply to shah:

If one of you was doing an arts degree and the other three doing medicine your problem would be easy to solve.

In reply to shah:
Why do you feel that you need a transceiver for climbing?

When you're on foot you can make avoidance descisions based on conditions and terrain. Get back to me for more information or help.

In reply to shah:
I've got one of the older model transceivers spare. Audio signal only.
I reckon I would get maybe ten quid for it if I sold it. Yours if you want it ... but unlikely to get it to you in time for the 7th, I'm afraid.

In reply to Rich W Parker:

A guess but Glenmore seem to use them (or did a while back) as a de facto standard for all hill activities in winter now so perhaps following their model ?

But i share your curiosity and am interested in the their reasoning, speaking as a ski tourer/off piste skier i know why i wear one, as a climber i wouldn't bother.

In reply to Rich W Parker:

Noting your experience and background, I'm not sure that's particularly helpful advice. I absolutely wouldn't go around telling people that they must wear transceivers, and equally I absolutely wouldn't try to discourage somebody (especially someone who's 17) who wants to!

But... Evidence of usefulness? While burials are rare in Scotland, they do happen...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/24/ben-nevis-climbers-killed-by-mas...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2302243/Pictured-Skier-Daniel-Maddo...

In reply to Dark-Cloud:


Climbers do get caught in avalanches too. My main motivator is two-fold:

1. I've got one, it basically weighs nothing, why leave it behind when there is a risk? Sure, more places and conditions will be completely risk-free, but if there's a chance...

2. I can't imagine being present at an avalanche scene and not being able to assist. We should all help each other in the mountains, and this ticks one of my 'mountain citizenship' boxes. Clearly, this view in an ideal sense relies on everybody on the hill to be wearing a transceiver too, but if you've got a transceiver one would also assume you're carrying a shovel and probe too...

In reply to James Jackson:

Fair enough but avalanche avoidance is always the first rule for me, that means reading the terrain i am on/in and making informed decisions about the route based on that, avalanche from remote slopes of course are unavoidable and in both cases you linked to i am not sure either were survivable but that's of course very subjective and slightly sensitive.

In reply to Dark-Cloud:


Absolutely. Avalanche awareness and safety is a complete suite of skills.

In reply to Dark-Cloud:


Non of that covers James' point 2), the mountain citizenship........

I have come round to wearing my transceiver and carrying shovel and probe 100% of the time whilst skiing (as per James' point but also as I never know when the opportunity to "just pop" down there" might arise) but have yet to actually take them whilst climbing.

In reply to shah:

If by any chance any of your party are members of the Ski Club of Great Britain they rent out transceivers for reasonable (£15 for up to 10 days), see https://www.skiclub.co.uk/info-and-advice/off-piste-and-touring/avalanche-t... However, I suspect it might be too late for your current trip.

Also, please remember that along with the transceiver you need a probe and a shovel and the skills to use all 3.

Enjoy your trip and safe climbing.

In reply to galpinos:

Correct, it doesn't, mainly as i am not sure how practical that is in reality.

In reply to Dark-Cloud:


Agreed, I'm not sure either wrt climbing in Scotland.

In reply to galpinos:

How so? This stuff does happen.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/rescuer-tells-how-cairngorm...

I posted this link a few weeks ago:

youtube.com/watch?v=Py_zhaw9ce4&

Whilst it features skiers, it’s a sobering example of why transceivers (and knowing how to use them) are so important in certain environments.

In reply to shah:

While I can't led you a transceiver (mine is coming with me to Norway next week), they are worth carrying in my opinion, along with a probe and shovel, obviously. Not quite sure why you have got so many dislikes!

In reply to tradisrad:


Heuristic traps come in many forms...

https://ski.utah.edu/feature/addressing-human-factors-in-avalanche-accident...

In reply to James Jackson:

Interesting, thanks - although I can assure you even though I carry a beacon avalanche terrain still scares the living shit out of me. I certainly don't hurl myself into situations hoping that someone will rescue me if an avalanche triggers! But I can certainly see the danger of certain people taking that approach and seeing a beacon as a replacement for informed judgment of avalanche terrain!

In reply to James Jackson:



There are a whole raft of reasons why carrying shovel, probe and transceiver makes much less sense for climbers than skiers. It's been done a few times on here. I'm not saying climbers shouldn't carry that kit, just that it's much less clear cut than for off piste skiers.

In reply to James Jackson:

What I'm trying to do is find out his reasoning and then give him a steer from there.

Both of those incidents you link to I have personal knowledge of and in both cases transceivers would not have changed the outcome, without question. This is also the case in other incidents that I was involved with. This is anecdotal and based on personal experience mind you.

So why wear a transceiver? So your companions can dig you out if you get avalanched. For that to be the case said companions need to have transcievers, plus probes and shovels and be able to use them effectively. Is there case for climbers not wearing them? Potentially yes.

The potential problems:

As above you need your companions to be able to rescue you. They need to have the right kit and be skilled with it.

In shallow snow packs, as is often (but not always) the case in Scotland anecdotal evidence suggests that victims have been injured or killed by trauma rather than burial. There is no historical evidence base for this yet but there are people working on it.

If no companion rescue happens a person's chances of survival diminishes to very low by the time a rescue team appears.

And here's the big one. Having TPS can lead to a sense of invulnerablity. Now, this sounds a bit far fetched, but there are volumes of evidence to suggest this, it is a powerful heuristic and should not be underestimated.

My great concern is that people with some knowledge, but not a lot, use a gadget at the expensive of other things that are actually much more likley to keep them safe i.e. avoidance.

I take people climbing and mountaineering in the winter for a living and do not use TPS, for one I don't need to in order to keep my clients safe, and secondly find that it creates a confusing message.

I was involved with the trial at Glenmore Lodge, which was controversial in the industry. It was a trial but now has been adopted as an SOP and was based on a large organisation with a huge number of customers. It is something that Glenmore Lodge practise but is NOT industry norm.

happy to discuss this further.

By the way, for penniless students, Mountaineering Scotland offer highly subsidised training:

https://www.mountaineering.scot/safety-and-skills/courses-and-events/our-co...

In reply to Rich W Parker:

I completely agree with Rich in this case. The Lodge trial was very specific to their enormous winter program and number of people deployed. They began it for research purposes and although the default is to carry TPS their evidence shows staff carrying it less and less as part of their decision making process. The morning meeting is where people share whether they feel the need to carry it (often more for education purposes than safety reasons) and explain their decisions for the team to digest and look for any potential for human factors to be influencing each other.
They are also on record as saying that individuals and organisations need to look at their own situation and take into account the many and complex factors involved when deciding whether TPS are relevant to them.
In line with Rich's reasons and like him I am a Mountaineering Instructor out a lot in winter. I don't even own a transceiver let alone give them to the folk I take out. If I was a back country skier I'd take all 3 out constantly as I'd be looking for snowfields and passing through the environment at a much greater speed. As a mountaineer I put a great deal more emphasis on the Be Avalanche Aware Process and avoidance.

In reply to Rich W Parker:

I find this subject fascinating, and we only develop our own understanding and approach by discussing openly with others, so I too welcome such a discussion.

I get all of your points, and completely agree with the majority. I didn't want to write a long post, although it would have been very similar to yours, rather I just wanted to show the far extreme (i.e. burial) that can happen in Scotland. I was fairly certain you would be aware of those incidents too, being in the MR community, but not all reading this thread may be.

All of this comes down to, as I said above and as you allude to, a complete suite of skills. Some of them can be used independently as a baseline (snowpack and terrain understanding), heuristics etc, and some are in addition to that (transceiver search techniques).

Picking up on a couple of your points to add my spin to them:


I count knowledge of heuristics and biases in the decision-making process as one of the suite of tools I talk about above. It's all in the mix. I have overheard people stating they would take greater risks on Cat 4 days as they 'had the kit', confusing risk management with consequence management, so I too have seen this first-hand.


I wonder if this is a differential between not wishing to teach clients who may not have a great base of knowledge a potentially confusing message, and those of us who are fortunate to have experience under our belt putting together all the bits of the toolkit? A full mountain education (which, of course, never ends) includes all manner of things one can't hope to pick up with some tuition alone, primarily, I would argue, how all the areas interact on a given day, in given conditions, on a given route, with a given group, etc...

I would pick up on AIH's comment below too:


I count myself as both - these days I find myself primarily climbing couloirs in order to ski them. I'd rather not drop in to something blind and not know the conditions. This means I am subjecting myself (and the snowpack) to both styles of movement. I'm probably more likely to wade up something to ski it in nice condition than to wait for it to be bullet-hard neve which is easier to climb, but a lot more committing to ski.

As a result of this particular risk combination, coupled with my views gained from experience, I think it sensible to wear the kit.

I am not a professional but having had climbing parents, have been in the hills for essentially my entire life, and for the past 15 have multiple alpine and winter seasons, and have climbed in the greater ranges. Only moderate stuff in the grand scheme of things, but it's all mountain time. This coupled with continually seeking to educate myself has led me to my decision point and my views on the matter. I do not say this as a 'hey look at me and how cool I am' thing, but to hopefully show I am not coming at this from an unconsidered stance, or the stance you point out of a bit of knowledge giving a false sense of security.

Fascinating subject - I can discuss this all night, although ideally with a pint in front of a nice fire!

In reply to James Jackson:


Another example of a faulty heuristic would be the assumption that if TSP are suitable for skiers they are suitable for climbers.

As Al, Rich and others have pointed out, although the two groups enter similar terrain their aims, objectives and tactics are very different. This means that what's suitable for one group isn't necessarily suitable for the other.

In reply to DaveHK:

In reply to DaveHK:

I think that argument quickly becomes farcical - the converse is not true either; that as the aims, objectives and tactics are very different that the kit is not suitable. Sounds pretty close to a logical fallacy to me.

The point is that I think we should not be advising people to not wear the kit if they are asking for advice on hiring a 4th transceiver, which is exactly what I said in my first post. I note that you offered a flippant comment on your relative assessment of the value of different degrees, which isn't exactly helpful...

In reply to James Jackson:


The fact that 'climbing' covers so many different activities makes this discussion very complex. I'm hardly ever on the kind of terrain you describe in those conditions so carrying avy kit makes much less sense for me.

In reply to DaveHK:


Yes indeed - had this thread been somebody saying 'I'm going climbing in Scotland, should I take a transceiver with me' I wouldn't have commented, but I'm uncomfortable with people advising against when the group has clearly decided to. Equally, we don't know their level of experience, education (snowpack, avi rescue skills, etc). Maybe I'm an optimist and assume too much?

In reply to James Jackson:

Some very experienced professionals (among others) have offered some well thought out comment but I can't see anyone advising the group not to take it.


The heuristic trap lies in making the assumption. You can avoid the trap by examining the tactics etc very carefully and being honest about the likelihood of TSP making a difference.


I think it's ok to joke about these things. Some might not. It doesn't mean I don't think about them very seriously too.

In reply to DaveHK:

It's how I interpreted Rich's first post ("Why do you feel you need a transceiver for climbing?"). While not explicit, I interpreted this as an underlying assumption.

Completely agree with the examination of tactics etc, this all comes in to the risk management bubble.

I think we're reached the point of violent agreement (if we were ever not there - it's all about explaining thought processes) on the majority of all this!

In reply to James Jackson:

Agreed!

In reply to DaveHK:

Phew ! Glad we sorted all that out.

Now can we check that the OP's group is indeed taking a shovel a probe each and knows how to use all the kit........

In reply to Dark-Cloud:


I even though for a minute someone was bringing Three Pebble Slab into the discussion...

Shock and astonishment: a civil consensus acheived on UKC! And Three Pebble Slab is defo HVS.

In reply to Rich W Parker:

Whilst thinking that wearing a transceiver makes you invulnerable is missing the point of wearing one, I think that saying you never need wear one if you make the right terrain choices in the given conditions is equally missing an important point.

However experienced and qualified you are, you're still human and capable of making an error - in this case of route selection or navigation - and finding yourself somewhere you don't want to be. Carrying a set of avalanche gear, together with the skills to use it, is a way to improve your chances of survival if you do, for example, stray into a start zone when travelling in a white-out.

So - as I've said before on similar threads - I'd suggest that the decision to carry shovel, probe & transceiver or not is one you make based on your route choice and the prevailing conditions, rather than a blanket "yes" or "no."

In reply to Rich W Parker:
One would hope civil consensus amongst adults passionate about a given thing would be easy to achieve... Although, hammering a keyboard with one's elbows is likely more fun.

And 3PS is definitely E0.

In reply to AdrianC:


I agree with your last point.
I would question how you put the 2nd (and 1st showing in quote): if there is a risk to stray into such terrain in a white-out... you made a bad decision to be there in the first place.
I have made that bad decision in Scotland, escaping with only a scare. I was skiing and carried all TPS. I know how to use it and have had to use it in anger (although fairly rusty now). Being buried wasn't the issue then, more potential trauma. Can't imagine worst than dig for a pal in poor viz and high wind... worth trying but doomed to failure???

Main lesson of my bad day? Stupid, stay home. Heuristic trap? Yes you are experienced, and yes you have limited time yet the mountain will be there another day!

3PS is a nice serious HVS

In reply to AdrianC:

Yes, everyone is capable of making an error and we can find never ending examples of 'what ifs'. We can put control measures in place to the n'th degree, right down to not going out at all. So we have to decide on cost vs benefit (and I don't mean financial) and to what extent we are willing to detract from the adventure. Without wishing to appear facetious nobody is going to think it a good idea to go out climbing with TPS, a full face helmet, an airbag and body armour on.

Years ago there was some debate about mobile phones in the hills. Some said they were not necessary and to take them would detract from the experience. I never thought there was any justification for not taking them because, yes, they can and do save lives - all the time! It would pretty much be professionally negligent of me not to have a phone on me when working in the mountains.

But a transceiver? Much more doubtful, and I'd refer back to the above.