UKH

Most people seemed to disagree with me when I questioned the validity of Greg’s ascent. My other point was that this was the thin end of the wedge. Well, we didn’t have long to wait… A classic case of a Eurowad totally misunderstanding Scottish winter ethics but my wider point is that ascents such as Greg’s will only make this kind of nonsense more likely.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CpFnMystdta/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

In reply to Misha:

That's not in condition; it doesn't count. The route still awaits a second ascent.

In reply to LakesWinter:

You're right, it's not in condition....

But this is a complete clusterf$uk now.... because what does  "in condition " now mean? How much difference is there really between the first and "second" ascent ?

Food for thought 🤔.....

Barbeg 

In reply to Misha:

Everybody knows a dusting of rime ice means it's in condition. 

In reply to Misha:

I still think that Greg’s ascent is fully valid.
This was a poor choice by visitors.

« Conditions » take a full apprenticeship to master.

Following conservatisme and traditions would mean that we would still cut steps in gullies.

But you have a point.

In reply to Misha:

If the consensus is that Greg's ascent was in condition but that this was not, what's the problem? There's always going to be routes climbed out of condition.

In reply to Misha:

There aren't perfect winter conditions; different routes suit different conditions. Maybe these are the conditions for this route?

In reply to Misha:

Thin end of the wedge indeed. What's next - cappuccinos for sale at the CIC?

In reply to Misha:

UK Climbers: Nobody ever comes to the UK to climb! 

Also UK Climbers when someone actually comes to repeat a hard route: iT wASn'T iN cONDiTioN fNaAR FnOrT*

*It's a joke my darlings so untwist those merino longjohns and continue with your day ❤

In reply to Misha:

This is all getting very confusing. If its a snowy day at Froggatt and I do three pebble slab, do I now log this as VII 8?

In reply to Birks:

I'm very confused by this. If TPS had ice on it, or any kind of sheen of ice on it, I would have thought it would be impossible to climb. If it hadn't got any ice on it, it would not be in 'winter condition'. 

In reply to Birks:

Depends how many pads you use.

In reply to Birks:

VI 7 you mean?

In reply to C Witter:

Sure there are!

Yep

It's a winter route, it is only a winter ascent if done in winter conditions, and while I disagreed with Misha on Boswell's first ascent, I agree here - that route is not in winter condition.

In reply to Misha:

I don't think this has anything to do with Ruckus being the "thin end of the wedge". It was climbed out of condition (by Filip, I don't agree that Greg's ascent was out of condition but then I wasn't there) because it's the route with the biggest number, attracts the biggest cachet and the biggest number of clicks.

In reply to TobyA:

I see your point... but exactly what state constitutes winter conditions? A bit of rime? Cracks choked with ice? Significant ice somehow appearing under an enormous roof? Actually, it's not easy to pin down... to the point where I suspect winter conditions only exist negatively, i.e.: in catty remarks by people who weren't there about how something wasn't in condition...

In reply to Misha:

You can't blame Greg for the conditions in which other people repeat his route.

In reply to tehmarks:

Of course not. But Mishas point was that the meat of the route was not any different, not for Greg or now for the 2nd ascent.

It boils down to What constitutes in ”in wintery condition”. 100% rime coated, 50% rime coated with the crux in said rimed portion, 50% rime coated.

to an extent I agree with Misha, in order for a line to be in nick, the crux needs to be ”in nick”… that rarely happens with roofs though. Which is the Wedge we are discussing now… unless there is a clear definition, it’s up for anyones personal opinion If it was fair or not.

In reply to Misha:

Quite frankly this doesn't prove anything at all, except that some visiting climbers don't understand Scottish winter ethics (which we already knew). Any leading route of the day could have been picked for an out of condition ascent regardless of the conditions experienced on the FA.

In reply to Misha:

While you're welcome to your opinion on Greg's ascent, it would be nice if you admitted you were in a tiny minority. Can you name one leading climber who share's your view? Because I'm not aware of any.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

To be fair to Misha, I'm not sure it matters whether any "leading climbers" share his view. Anyone can - and indeed should be able to if they want to Winter climb in Scotland - argue whether or not a route is in condition, whether they climb I, II or XII.

I don't agree with him, but that's neither because it's the popular view nor because Nick Bullock says so. I simply think he's wrong about the FA.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Hello Andrew, can you send me a link please to where I have made a comment about Greg's ascent, and the conditions regarding that ascent.

Thanks

Nick.

In reply to dr evil:

Yeah quite humiliating, Pretty impressive these euros turning up and dispatching Scotland's hardest  route as their first EVER Scottish winter route! It just goes to show how tooling over a roof doesn't really do justice to the really bold style of cutting edge OS Scottish winter routes, relying on proper winter conditions with crucial ice and turf placements oft climbed above marginal gear.

But then i could be wrong? these continentals are maybe  just really that  good, they certainly make short work of very overhanging routes onto ice features.

In reply to French Erick:

I accept that the weight of opinion was against me re Greg’s ascent but hopefully most people would agree that this ascent is outside the vague parameters of what could be remotely considered to be ‘in’. It’s understandable as the team is not familiar with Scottish winter ethics. We have seen this a few times before. Would they have done in in these conditions if the route had been fully rimed up on Greg’s ascent? Perhaps. I just hope that we won’t see too much more of this.

More than anything, people are just kidding themselves if they take the tick for such an ascent because they’re missing out in a proper Scottish winter experiences. It’s kind of pointless. (To be fair, it started snowing higher up the route, so at least they got one ingredient of a classic Scottish day out!)

In reply to planetmarshall:

And it creates the most ruckus. Great name, considering the debate. 

In reply to Misha:

As has been discussed countless times before about this style of ascent, if it was more wintery on the roof it wouldn't have made it any harder? ergo this route is surely over graded considering the speed of the repeat!

In reply to Nick BullockNick Bullock:

I suspect Andrew is misremembering what you said in your blog about a different issue re Stone Bastion. However there happens to be a link here because Filip’s ascent was headpointed. His Instapost says that after a failed GU attempt he inspected from the top before headpointing with gear placed on lead. To be fair, he is completely open about that, which is great. Whether that style is ok or not is a different debate, personally I think it’s ok as long as people are open about it.

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:

I don’t think it’s correct to say that the roof section would not have been harder if rimed up. Judging by Greg’s comments, the headwall was no pushover and being wintery would certainly have made it harder. I can’t comment on the grading other than that I would trust someone of Greg’s experience to grade appropriately. It’s also worth noting that Filip failed to GU it.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

If you look at the likes on my first post on the previous thread, it was about 2:1 against me. Assuming this is representative (there were dozens of votes), this suggests I am in a minority but not a tiny one. I don’t know about ‘leading climbers’, a lot of them probably have better things to be doing than trawling UKC and even less so sticking their necks out criticising their peers. May be all the ‘leading climbers’ think it’s fine but I would say that anyone with a reasonable idea of what Scottish winter mixed entails is entitled to an opinion.

Anyway, what with have in the case of this ‘second’ ascent is something which hopefully the vast majority of winter climbers, including ‘leading climbers’, would consider to be ‘not in’.

In reply to HeMa:

Actually my main point here is that the headwall is not in as far as I can see, unless it’s verglassed (which I doubt as I suspect that would have been mentioned on Insta).

In reply to Nick BullockNick Bullock:

Hi Nick, I was referring to these comments in your blog at http://nickbullock-climber.co.uk/2023/01/19/into-the-winter-future/

"There are others out there that are capable of climbing X/10 on sight and have done. To prove my point, only a few days later, Greg Boswell and Jamie, one of the team who practiced the crux pitch of Stone Bastion before climbing it, made a ground up, first ascent, on the cliffs of Lochnagar. This climb is graded two adjective grades, and three technical grades harder than winter Stone Bastion."

Whilst you explicitly refer to only the style, and not the conditions, of Greg's ascent - given your strong opinions on the subject I assumed that you had no issue with those conditions. Apologies if I misconstrued.

Regards,

Andrew.

In reply to Misha:

Certainly they're entitled to an opinion, and a perfectly valid one, but the lack of a similarly voiced opinion from leading climbers (sorry, can't think of another way of putting it) is telling.

In reply to Misha:

I think the headpointing thing is more disappointing than the conditions thing even if they have been honest about it. When I saw the video of Greg on the roof, I thought ok, obviously very physical and desperate, though safe, but what happens if the ground above is equally desperate but thin and unprotectable? Nightmare.....  Hasn't there always been a presumption of ground up climbing in winter with aberrations getting called out or questioned? I would have thought the element of "climbing into the unknown" is something worth preserving that has been gradually lost in rock climbing.

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:

I very much doubt that there was any difference going though that roof between Greg's and this chaps ascent, it looks like drytooling to me in both ascents. Yes granted the headwall had a bit more of a dusting, but there was no rime on the roof itself so spotting the hooks would have been the same for both by looking at the pictures. Doing a lot tooling makes Scottish fairly amenable, so no surprise these guys show up and get something like this done. But yes I agree having totally black will make it easier for sure. 

In reply to planetmarshall:

Hello Andrew,

Sorry, I’m old and slow. Just to clear this up, as I’m still a bit confused about why you deemed it necessary to include my name in your comment,

I don't agree with him, but that's neither because it's the popular view nor because Nick Bullock says so. I simply think he's wrong about the FA.

So, what you are saying is; you don’t agree with what Misha says about Greg and Jamie’s ascent being out of condition, and then assume I also disagree with Misha, (even though I have written nothing about the ascent, apart from using it as an example of what can be attempted on-sight, and then climbed ground up) and go on to include my name in a thread about something I’ve made no comment on? Is this a fair summary of your comment? Please let me know if this is correct, or have I still got the wrong end of the stick?

Apology accepted. In the future, when randomly throwing my name into a thread on a very popular forum to make some point or other, (I’m still not sure what the point was of using my name in this occasion) maybe make sure I have actually said something about the subject of the thread, and please make it clear what it is you are trying to say, because it’s very important when name checking someone in this day and age, as before you know it, the pile on begins.

So, anyway, here is something that will start the pile on...

As you’ve got me here, and to clarify, I will say, I thought Greg and Jamie’s on sight attempt, and subsequent ground up ascent of Bring da Ruckus was a brilliant example of what Scottish winter climbing is, or should be; true, honest and inspirational adventure - a real step into the unknown and giving the small Scottish cliffs a chance, and yes, I do think it was in winter condition. It’s a real shame that the second (sort of, although in my opinion the second ascent is still available) ascent team chose to headpoint the climb in what appears to be dry conditions, and then call the route, Scotland’s hardest climb.

Greg and Jamie graded the climb for an on-sight ascent of course, because this is the accepted and recognized style in Scottish winter at present, (although how long this lasts giving some of the ascents this winter, I’m not sure). Bring da Ruckus certainly would not be the hardest winter climb in Scotland once it was checked out; gear placements, what gear to carry, where to shake out, where to move quickly, hooks, torques etc, it certainly would not be the grade Greg and Jamie gave it, and to claim as much, is just not honest.

This ascent unfortunately is a fine example of what appears to be happening in climbing today, which is, why let the actual truth, and full facts, get in the way of an Instagram entry. It’s a real shame climbing is going this way. Things now appear to be driven by social media entries that are not telling the full story, and because of this, the whole thing becomes cheapened and distorted. Yes, they said how they climbed the route, but left out what affect this style made on the grade of the route and on their mental attitude towards the route. If you choose to put things out there on social media, please, please, please, tell the whole story, don’t be dishonest by omission.

On a final note, (although given what has already gone on this winter on at least two climbs in Scotland, who can blame these guys for being confused) climbers generally go to countries and respect the heritage and ethics of that area/country, this has not happened here, and again I believe this kind of thing is being driven by social media and greed. It’s a consumeristic attitude, and climbers obviously feel under self-induced pressure to get some form of result, so that they can then post to their Instagram feed, no matter the cost to the activity in the long run.

Finally, let me say, I really dislike posting things like this on forums and social media, I’ll no doubt get a backlash from what I’ve written, some of it will be from people who are just in it to troll and get laughs or for a wind up, and it affects me quite a lot. But sometimes I suppose, for something you hold dear, you have to stick your head above the parapet and make your voice heard.

Cheers

Nick.             

      

In reply to Nick BullockNick Bullock:

Because Michael asked for an example of a "leading climber" who agreed with Misha, and believed winter condition of Greg's ascent to be in dispute. I used you as a negative example, because you have recent,  publicly aired strong opinions on the subject - both on your blog and on twitter. You have already "stuck your head above the parapet", so to speak.

I don't think it's fair, no. Because you *have* commented about the ascent, and have the aforementioned strongly held and publicly held views about the ethics and nature of Scottish Winter Climbing.

You can't both expect those views to be influential (and you *are* influential, through your climbing and widely read writing), and yet object when your name is used in a thread about Scottish Winter Climbing ethics. It sounds like you want the influence of social media but not the profile - well you can't have it both ways.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Ok Andrew, 

Yes I mentioned the ascent of Bring da Ruckus as an example of what can be done ground up/on sight, not once mentioning the conditions of the climb, that for some reason, you then chose to take out of context, and not very clearly, include it in a thread, about conditions, while guessing my opinion.

I have no problem if someone wants to mention my opinions and argue or comment, (you have done it often over the years) as long as they are my opinions and not assumptions and guesses like your comment was. You were putting words into my mouth. 

By the way, using what a person has said in the past as some form of evidence to how they may be thinking now is not the best. I change my opinions on a daily basis. 

Cheers

Nick 

In reply to Nick BullockNick Bullock:

I have conflated the condition of the climb with the style in which it was climbed, that's true. However I don't think that's unreasonable under the context of Scottish Winter Climbing ethics, which I believed to be the subject of your writing - so I disagree that I'm taking anything out of context, but as the author of the piece I accept that that was not your intent.

In a post about style, you gave Ruckus as an example of what you considered to be good style. I made the assumption that you would not have done so had you had misgivings about the condition under which it was climbed. I don't think that was an unreasonable assumption to make given the context. It was a guess, but it was, to me, a reasonable one. I accept that you disagree and so I won't do it again and will only quote you verbatim in future without making inferences.

Regards,

Andrew.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Thanks... 

Cheers

Nick.

In reply to HeMa:

This second ascent is no different from someone tooling their way up Embankment Wall. It's so far removed from being 'in' that discussing it adds nothing useful to a conversation about winter ethics. It's not a thin end of a wedge, it's clearly and obviously not right by today's ethics of Scottish winter climbing and everyone who has more than a passing interest in winter climbing knows that even if they choose to ignore it.

The only thing that the original discussion of Greg's first ascent highlighted to me is that Scottish winter ethics are an illogical mess that need better defining. Surely 'ethics' should be about things that cause damage and limit the enjoyment of the rock and the mountain environment? Is there actually a rock line that goes through that roof that has been negatively impacted? We're essentially about to cap the Scottish grading system because roofs clearly aren't ever going to rime up to a degree that Misha is happy with.

I appreciate it's a tricky line to draw, but as things stand the outrage at Greg looks to me to be the same as the outrage of the person who went off at me on Sunday for jumping on a public wall on a council estate in London. I don't really get it.

In reply to Misha:

All that noise… it distracts from the sound of them climbers crying from hot aches!!!! Anything with hot aches should be given the full Scottish O/S grade.

It seems to me that this thread has gone a bit off-route.

Happy climbing everyone.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

It might be telling that they all have the same agenda… To be fair, may be Scottish winter ethics need to evolve to respond to climate change. Lack of reliable conditions is one of the reasons I can’t be bothered with it any more.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The more I think of it, the more I come round to the idea of the adventure / onsight element being as important as winter conditions. I was thinking about the recent Banana Wall antics when gear was placed on a dogged lead followed by a headpoint with gear in place. When I had dry tooling M11 fitness a few years back, I probably could have done that route in that style - and I’m a relative punter. It never crossed my mind though as it’s just not something you do when winter climbing. That kind of style is fine if you just want to have a bit of fun but it’s beating the route into submission. It doesn’t even happen in summer because headpoints with most of the gear in generally don’t count.

In reply to Nick BullockNick Bullock:

An excellent post. I would just add that perhaps they didn’t realise that what they were doing was not in line with the accepted local ethics in terms of style of ascent and conditions. 

In reply to Misha:

A good bit of context missing from that post. It's like you're suggesting that was the strategy all along. In reality, the cracks were iced-up and they didn't know when it would next be in helpful nick. Obviously it's a poorer style than ground-up but it's not the route I'd pick where the sense of adventure seems to have been lost. They knew it was possible anyway, unlike Stone Bastion.

In reply to Misha:

No, they simply judged the route as being in nick.

In reply to tehmarks:

On that we agree.

But the point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully, it seems) that if there is no "strict" definition of "in", and the more it guess pushed (like in case of Gregs FA... to an extent... the crux was obviously not "in" as it was completely black... which is the case with big roofs often)... So the thin edge -theory is not wrong... If the crux of the route is not "in", why does the rest of it need to be?

So when is a route "in"? This particular ascent, most probably not (seems black, even though you can see easier angled stuff being white in the background). Was it in during the FA... I'd say so, but here lies the problem... that is just my opinion. But let's consider that the crux section was not "in" even then (completely rime free), now we are pushing the limits and also see the result.

And oddly enough, I've seen quite big roofs being fully rimed (non black) in Scotland... and I have been there only for one week (granted it was a snowy/cold winter of 2014 and the BMC Winter Meet). I'm also fairly certain that if the FA was done during that week, no one would be questioning if it was wintery enough to be "in".

One could argue, that since there are no "rules" for when something is "in"... it is up for the individual to decide... And let's extrapolate this same approach to speed limits and driving. Instead of strict speed limits (and police and speed cameras to monitor this)... let's just say that every one should drive at casual speeds on country roads and then on motorways  at reasonable speeds. How well could that go? I have a feeling that an older person in an older car would prolly assume casual speed being in the 40 to 50km/h range, where as some middle aged prick on a Porsche might think 100 to 120km/h is just fine..... (nb.  I'm middle aged and prolly a prick too, albeit not driving a Porsche or generally speeding).

In reply to HeMa:

The more I consider my 19 seasons of winter in Scotland, and my place within the scene, the more the following chain of thoughts come to mind:

Winter climbing in Scotland (and probably UK wide) is a clique/ club/ lodge.

Instead of a funny handshake/ golden golf clubs/ specific clothes or music, we have a fairly loose set of guidelines.

The very fact that you need to interpret the guidelines correctly is the entrance test to the club!

With the democratisation of winter climbing and wider public access to the hills, inevitably a growing number will not « adhere » to them, and most likely will not be even aware of the set’s existence. So perhaps, Misha’s thin end of the wedge holds some weight?

 I am still in awe at the Ruckus. I don’t really care that the roof is black, forging ahead and questing onto that head wall AFTER that crux…. Jesus f christ!!!! 
Greg doesn’t need my recognition, my handshake… but he has my admiration nonetheless. His routes (and for that matters Guy’s, Martin’s, Uisdean’s, and Tim.M’s…) really fire my inspiration. I read those accounts and immediately want to get on with my own projects.

What those Italian lads did doesn’t upset me. I discounted it immediately with a roll of the eyes.

edit: one sentence made no sense at all… not that the rest is that eloquent or articulate either 🤦

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Even single pitch routes which have been done before have a sense of adventure on the onsight. I don’t know what the original plan was but what they actually did drove a coach and horses through the onsight ethics. They could have just gone to climb something easier after realising that conditions were difficult. People are just too impatient these days.

In reply to Misha:

I don't know that anything has really changed behaviour-wise. I see it as the same side of the coin that sees people queue three teams deep (most of us have probably done it at some point) for Point Five Gully when there are routes just as good nearby with no one on them, or leads teams into dangerous avalanche terrain when they should really just go home.

In reply to Misha:

I agree with you that with a bit of training at Mannod or the Goods both of us could do those routes in that style. I personally don't like doing Scottish Winter routes in that style for some reason, I had an offer to ground up Bring da rukus recently and declined. However, I disagree with you that an ascent with most of pre-placed gear doesn't count as an ascent. It is an ascent, just not in the best style. When I did Dalriada because of the logistic of stripping it and running out of time I did it with pre-placed gear. I still count it as an ascent. However, the following weekend I did the 17hr round trip from London to try repeat it placing the gear on lead, but alas it was wet. So yes placing the gear on lead is the gold standard, but sometime it just doesn't work out that way. 

In reply to HeMa:

Good points. How in does a route have to be in order to be in? Your point re 2014 is well made. Solid winter conditions are getting rarer. At the same time, routes are getting harder and it is convenient to do them in lean conditions because it’s easier. We also have the pressure on sponsored heroes to spray about their latest rad send on social media. This is all slowly but surely going in a certain direction. Winter climbing is changing and I find this quite sad. Of course it doesn’t really matter and in another 20 years winter climbing won’t even be a thing any more due to climate change. We are witnessing the last hurrah at the moment, so the sponsored heroes might as well have some fun while they’re at it…

In reply to HeMa:

Good points. How in does a route have to be in order to be in? Your point re 2014 is well made. Solid winter conditions are getting rarer. At the same time, routes are getting harder and it is convenient to do them in lean conditions because it’s easier. We also have the pressure on sponsored heroes to ‘send’ due to sponsors abs social media. This is all slowly but surely going in a certain direction. Winter climbing is changing and I find this quite sad. Of course it doesn’t really matter and in another 20 years winter climbing won’t even be a thing any more due to climate change.

In reply to HeMa:

That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying - the 'rules' need better defining. That said, other than for those very few at the pointy end of the progression spear putting up cutting-edge new routes, does it really matter as long as actual damage isn't being caused?

In reply to HeMa:

Don't get too fixated with the undersides of roofs having to be rimed white in order to for a route to be 'in' - I don't think it really even matters if that is the crux of the route. There are plenty of routes with chimneys, chockstone, roofs, overlaps etc that never or only rarely get rime on them, doesn't mean the route isn't in condition when they don't.

In the pictures of Bring Da Ruckus's 1st and sort-of 2nd ascent, the obvious difference to me is when Greg did it basically everything else except under the roof had snow and rime on it, and when these chaps did recently nothing else seems to be snowy or frosted.

In reply to TobyA:

For me it was the video of the route that it is so obviously being climbed in full on winter conditions. I'm not sure it even matters that much whether the rock is rimed, it's more about the atmosphere.

I think you could make a reasonable argument that a route being climbed in a full on blizzard that is otherwise black was still being climbed in winter condition, it is after all at least for mixed climbing more about the aesthetics.

In reply to TobyA:

To be fair, now we get into the meat of the things... the philosophical aspect (best done in the pubs with a pint in hand)...

But the whole purpose of wintery/"in nick" is the added difficulty. Rime and snow, makes it harder to find tool placements and also gear (plus it might make placing gear also harder, albeit verglass is more effective on that regard). At least that is what people keep bringing up as one of the reasons.

And as said, in good winters, even extensive roofs can be rimed. E.g. this roof is quite big (2-3m IIRC) in Glen Coe is rimed:
https://www.instagram.com/p/jwrBfSKlOj Credits to Paddy Cave for snapping that pic.

In the mountaineering realm, Winter is just a calendar things (in relationship to which hemisphere said mountain is). But in the mountains climbing using the most efficient method is often the case. The way is see it, you in there agree on the arbitrary "rules" for winter climbing and don't leave much leeway on the matter. E.g. Climb and surroundings must be completely rimed of iced  for the ascent to count at all. Or perhaps more than half of the climb must be fully iced or rimed including the crux sections... Or what ever you can come up with, like any ascent not done OS, flash or ground-up is deemed invalid...

The other pragmatic approach could go as far as the one in mountaineering... so simply based on set dates. Albeit as the non cutting edge lines relay heavily on turf, additional criteria for such lines can be defined (temperatures need to be below freezing for the whole climb base to top, and turf must be completely frozen)... that being said, when is something completely frozen... people will have different opinions on the matter....


Oh, the games we climbers play... n.b. I haven't touched in my tools for 2 years now... and most likely won't be doing it this year either even if the conditions are actually in pretty OK conditions... oh well, such is life, back to skiing and indoor bouldering....

In reply to HeMa:

I think if you try to be too logical or analytical about what it means for a route to be in condition - you will just tie yourself in knots. Very little in climbing is at all logical, and winter conditions are not much different.

If it were just about difficulty of tool placements and gear, then iced up corners that are otherwise dry (the kind of thing you see a lot of in continental mixed) would be absolutely fine - but probably (?) wouldn't be considered acceptable as Scottish winter conditions.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I know what you mean, although in blizzards even vertical rock starts getting snow stuck to it so becomes whiter. It also looked like that Italian team (maybe Italian-Polish team?) also continued on in what became a full on blizzard. It may have been that had the blizzard hit a few hours earlier or they had a waited a day, it would have looked very wintery on the main pitch of route which we are now discussing.

In reply to Ramon Marin:

What I mean is it doesn’t generally count at the top end. Dalriada obviously counts as a tick for you, in that style, but you don’t make a living from climbing and it’s not going to hit the news whichever style you do it in. 

In reply to TobyA:

That’s the irony of it. People are too impatient. 

In reply to planetmarshall:

I know... but if you're not logical... then anything goes, which has been my main point.

So the to-be in condition, is a mixture of looking like winter climbing (being white enough so it looks the business)... being harder than when dry (or black and not verglassed)... And obviously on those lines that relay on turf, it needs to be frozen so that (to an extent) you protect the line enough to allow future climbs on it as well.

These are the "variables" we play with... and the latter does not really matter for this particular line (which I assume is not really turf dependent). If we go full blown on being white and thus also harder... then even Gregs FA would not cut it... he should have known better and waited for this to be in (I'm being sarcastic here). But if we lessen the requirements, at one point even this second ascent becomes acceptable...


Now let's play these games further and crop picture so that is pretty much only shows the roof and climber... conditions are nearly identical. Which for a foreigner quickly lookin' at pics in Pentagram might even cause them to bring their continental and mountaineering approach to assume that being white is not a requirement. Not everyone hangs around here discussing these things (instead of actually climbing stuff)... In fact, I wager that majority the dwellers here don't go and investigate what the peculiarities of climbing in say 'Bleua or Swiss Franconia are (from French or German online climbing-forums). Not to mention the fact, that a lot of people seem to even disagree what is in and when it ain't here... So without completely overshooting (ie. in this lines case, timetravel to 2014 and climb it when it was fully hoared for the FA ), a lot might just go what they seems and also bring their own ethos and experience to the mix...


N.b. did you know that chalk should not be used in 'Bleua, and yet everytime I see brits climbing there, nearly all have used chalk... hows that for not following local ethos.

In reply to French Erick:

Thinking about all this and how things have changed, I think something was lost when the grading system was extended above V, and then technical grades came in, and it became just a bit more about chasing numbers rather than just getting up to your nuts in snow and storm, and not caring about the odd point of aid, and just being glad to get off the hill in one piece, and then along came conditions reports and accurate forecasts and SAIS, and social media, and now it's all angst and ethics.

Something has been lost. 

In reply to HeMa:

Surely, all we need is an AI app. We show it a thousand pictures of what "in" looks like and thousand pictures of what "out" looks like. Johnny foreigner* points his phone at the route and computer says yay or nay.  

Edit: * or braying English Jeffery.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I see the chase to still be on. Being able to accurately predict a crag on the other side of the country to be in, get there and get something « in » done still gives me a huge kick. My playground is mostly NW, where oft, my partner(s) and I are on our own.

The beauty isn’t lost- Scotland in winter in all its weather iterations is still leaving me speechless (I grew up in the Alps!)

The challenge isn’t lost. I recall coming off the slioch in pitch dark and falling snow after a successful repeat, or indeed, bailing from a well known VII on coire sputan dearg on the shortest day of the year on the last pitch as being hugely challenging and rewarding.

The sense of achievement and mastery isn’t lost. Battling back in a hoolie to the carpark from some far flung coire (or for that matters the NC) while being challenged physically but in the knowledge that really you and your partner(s) have the situation well in hand.

The sense of adventure lives on IMHO.

What has changed is FOMO, how much we care about what others do because we all flaunt it a bit online…

Ultimately those Italian lads probably had a whale of a time. Pity, they didn’t really get a full flavour of what I described above.

Ironically, I am spending this winter in my home valley. Rime never comes here. 5 weeks of wall to wall sunshine with a half day of spitting rain. I have no FOMO at all… first time in 19 years! Not chasing the ephemeral, no wishing to be somewhere else !

In reply to Robert Durran:

That's just modern life. Oh to go back to the days of listening to the weather forecast at ten to six/seven(?)* and extrapolating winter conditions from there! But it is what it is, we can't go back.

*or more often, calling up the mountain forecast

In reply to French Erick: But you are missing whisky nights in Avoch

In reply to French Erick:

You are absolutely right of course. It is still all there for those who really want it. I suppose I just fell out of love with winter climbing about five years ago after 35 passionate years. Now the only flutters I get are from the FOMO of other people's social media posts, but they are usually short lived and I soon remember the reasons I stopped and what I have instead. But I do sometimes dream.....

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Indeed, but I think I would have stayed in bed and missed out on some of my most awesome and rewarding days if MWIS, SAIS and online conditions reports had existed at the time. Who these days is going to have Lochnagar to themselves and spend twelve desperate hours climbing Eagle Ridge in snowfall and under bottomless powder?

In reply to Misha:

OK, just to zoom waaaayyy out for a second:

First, there is the question of whether of not using tools and crampons damages a summer rock route.  If no summer rock route is being damaged, then there are really no rules, right?  Everybody is free to climb as they like?  If one is honest about what one had done or not done, then what's the problem?

The first ascent team climbed in a particular style, with particular conditions.  Their ascent was amazing.

The second ascent team climbed in a diferent style, with different conditions.  Their ascent was also pretty amazing, just different.

I guess the only "lying" or "missrepresenting" would be claiming a tick or an achievement that is equivalent to the first ascent, but it doesn't seem like the second ascent team is somehow claiming an equivalence....indeed, they seem to acknowledge the boldness of the first ascent.

I mean, as long as people are not permanently damaging the rock, and everybody is honest about what they have done or not done, who cares how people climb???

In reply to Robert Durran:

Don't worry Robert, people are still out there doing stupid shit.

In reply to DaveHK:

Glad to hear it! 

Anyway, talking of stupid shit, I've just had my fifth 4am start in a row for photography purposes and am now on top of the same mountain I was on two mornings ago. Cloudy again! Damned inaccurate met office cloud cover forecasts.....

Photo was actually yesterday morning. Different hill, same problem!

In reply to Robert Durran:

A man of many jackets!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Stupidly early starts only to find it's not in? Yes, definitely sounds familiar.

In reply to brunoschull:

If it were that simple…🤪

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yes, mountain photography has much in common with winter climbing. Just lacks that gnawing fear of imminent death.

In reply to JLS:

Surely there should be a built-in penalty for those pesky in-comers? Something like an accent recognition on the phrase: AI, is this route in acceptable nick?

youtube.com/watch?v=HbDnxzrbxn4& 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Thanks for lightening the mood on here. 

In reply to DaveHK:

Yes, I am a Russian doll of multiple belay jackets.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Where's that - Meall Chuaich? Good effort, anyway.

In reply to DaveHK:

Like it.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

A'Chralaig. Attempt to get above the cloud!

In reply to brunoschull:

But you can't claim a winter ascent if the route isn't in winter condition, which is what arguably has happened here. You can't also claim a summer ascent at E-whatever, if you have climbed it with ice tools and crampons, although I hasten to add this isn't what has happened here.

In reply to brunoschull:

That would be ignoring the traditional ethic of Scottish winter climbing that the route needs to be wintery and should be attempted onsight or, failing that, GU. These ethics have value. But in some ways you’re right, it doesn’t really matter. People can do what they want. Thing is, where do you draw the line in that case?

In reply to TobyA:

Johnny foreigner doesn't understand the rules even when they have been exhaustively explained. So is the problem Johnny foreigner or the rules?

In reply to TobyA:

Could you,? I faintly remember an article/report from perhaps Climbing magazine from the early 2000 or so, in which a few guys freed a thin desert splitter aid route... using modified icetools (bolted a pecker to the pick to fit into the crack) and climbing shoes. Have a faint recollection of striking looking thin splitter on red sandstone... so I guess this would be in Zion (or in Utah anyway) or possibly Red Rocks in NV.

In reply to HeMa:

I seem to remember something like that but thought it eas The Black Canyon. May be wrong though.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Johnny Foreigner can learn the rules. I did!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Ah, ta. My other thought on the big sturdy cairn front was Beinn Mholach, but that's surely too awkward/remote for the purpose. Unlucky not to get a view from A' Chralaig in these conditions given how high it is. If it's any consolation we missed the good Northern Lights display here in Stirling - forgot about it but also we ended up taking the elderly neighbour and her daughter to hospital in pretend-ambulance mode the previous night at midnight and had that happened 24hrs later we would have seen the aurora by accident as it were.

In reply to Robert Durran:

You're not wrong - although that doesn't rule out the possibility that HM's recollection is also correct. On the first 'free' ascent of The Hallucinogen Wall the crux pitch involved dry tooling - just one move, I think - with a modified pick.

In reply to brunoschull:

Scottish winter climbing ethics are not just (or even primarily) about protecting the rock or rare flora. They are about ensuring a level playing field for competition. Which is why some people get so worked up about it.

In reply to French Erick:

You're a bonafide native now, Erick!

In reply to Ian Parsons:

I think my memory is shot and Robert and you are correct... Hallucinogen Wall sort of seems familiar. So it is completely possible that I'm mixing the report and some other picture (red sandstone)...  

Albeit I do recall it would have been more than just one/a few moves. So perhaps there have been two such routes opened....

In reply to Myr:

Bizarre. Its not as if winter conditions are ever really identical, even later the same day. The ephemeral nature of Scottish winter is one of its defining characteristics and one of its major attractions.

In reply to Myr:

I think the level playing field argument really only applies at the cutting edge. Yes, punters might get ridiculed for top roping or dry tooling, but it doesn't really matter if they are not in anyone's way or on classic rock climbs.

In reply to pancakeandchips:

Agreed, 'level playing field' was the wrong term. I suppose I perceive the ethics as being about ensuring that people don't get away with an ascent in much easier than average conditions. Hence why - even though ethics are ostensibly about environmental considerations - people actually get much more annoyed about ascents of mixed routes in black but frozen conditions than they do about ascents in white but unfrozen conditions.

In reply to HeMa:

Hah! Just dug out Ryan Nelson's account in the Rock & Ice December issue of that year [2004]. Your detail about the Pecker is spot on; he bolted one to the pick of one of his tools after conventional picks failed to hold on a particularly thin edge. And yes; he specified "a handful of moves on pitch 13" rather than my suggestion of just one.

I wonder whether your sandstone recollection could have had anything to do with Aron Ralston. He modified his prosthetic to accept in ice axe which I think - understandably - was used on rock as well.

Speaking of sandstone: you mentioned earlier in the thread "the peculiarities of climbing in say 'Bleua [sic] or Swiss Franconia", and I've since been wondering what you meant by the latter - better known, I think, as Franconian Switzerland or, to climbers in particular, The Northern Frankenjura. Were you actually referring to Saxon Switzerland/Sächsiche Schweiz - ie the Elbsandstein towers between Dresden and the Czech border - well known for its various Kletterregeln including "no chalk, no nuts/cams etc, and no climbing within a couple of days after rain"? I've always understood The Frankenjura to be pretty standard Euro limestone sport climbing as far as ethics are concerned.

[With due apology for thread drift.]

In reply to GraB:

I would say Erick has earned his place, inspirational ascents over the years! 

Regards

Stuart 

I have to say, I read Nick's insightfull, heartfelt blog post, and I have amended my stance expressed above.

The worries with top down rehersals, pre-placed gear, and so forth, are that such practices would erode (or destroy) long-held ethics, but also that they would prevent others from doing ground up onsight ascents in a better style. 

If routes were routinely scouted on rappel, and rehersed on top rope or with pre-placed gear, then a main determining factor in the beauty and challenge of winter clinbing--the unknown factor of just not being sure a line can go--would dissapear, not only for the first ascensionits, but for all who might try it later in a better style.

It seems worthwhile to preserve that challenge, even, as Nick says, it means that technical grades might not increase as fast as they otherwise would (using modern methods).

Anyway, he convinced me   Thanks Nick--always an inspiration.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Nothing really about ethics. As you say, it's a pretty generic euro limestone bolt clipping thing. My point was that has  anyone bothered to find out, if there is something peculiar there, that you should follow (to the best of my knowledge and research, no... albeit parking an approach to the crags can be an issue, if the local agreements are not followed). My point was that generally you expect other to follow your ethics and rules (which you really can't even seem to agree on)... yet when you venture out from your own domain, you do not bother to dig up, or follow the local ethos of your selected locale (generalization I know, person ).

I picked 'Bleau on and Frankenjura on purpose.... the former is something that people across the channel seem to have problems even shortening the name correctly ... And not following the local ethic of using pof and no chalk, even if it is communicated very clearly in a variety of medias (granted... even the locals use chalk there... so in a sense a perfect correlation to the "in nick" discussions). And Frankenjura because to be honest Elbe Sandstein and those ethos are I think quite familiar as there's been so much hub hub about it during the last years. Plus if you were to stroll in there with a bunch of cams and start using them there... I'm sure the locals would most likely flail you or something (well, at least verbally, german is after all a really good language to be upset... heck most of the time even saying nice lovely things in german can sound like you you'd be really upset).

[/partial  thread drift]

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Better luck back on A'Chralaig this morning🙂

In reply to Robert Durran:

Gosh, very good - fresh snow too. I'm off to Stuc a' Chroin shortly with a pal but I don't think there's new snow there (admittedly it's almost 150m lower). Lovely pic.

In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Literally only the top 10 metres at 1120m above the cloud. MWIS said 100 to 200. Met office said no cloud! Flogged up in the dark in drizzle and snow with little optimism. Incredible!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Could be the description of a successful winter climbing day… good on you!

In reply to Misha:

I've never been winter climbing. I've never been dry tooling. But I can very easily tell you which that is.

In reply to TobyA:

Mick Fowler - Chalk

Currently the Exmoor Coast is open to thinking outside the box.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Where do you get inversion predictions? The Met Office app?

In reply to Graeme G:

The met office don't seem to often mention them in their mountain forecasts. MWIS do and I have usually found them pretty accurate with the cloud top height, but they have been a bit out this week.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Thanks. I saw a news article recently reporting that people were using weather apps to identity when inversions might occur. Meant to follow it up at the time. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykWq28ImQUQ&t=629s

I thought it would be worth posting this here - Filip addresses the criticisms leveled at him. He's very ethically minded so I think a lot of the discussion has aggravated him, which is fair enough I think. 

In reply to Tim Bevan:

...to be fair he makes some good points, smooth talker what a diplomat, Babicz for president

In reply to maxsmith:

Tell you what though - this debacle is not doing much to support the Scottish Tourist Board!

In reply to Misha:

Watch a video made by Filip concerning all questions about the "validity" of his ascent:

• winter conditions
• route inspection
• cleanliness of the style

youtube.com/watch?v=ykWq28ImQUQ&

In reply to Misha: A Eurowad who appears to have a very full understanding of Scottish winter climbing ethics based on his reasoned response.  

In reply to studgek:

It was well reasoned but also he is obviously annoyed at having the conditions questioned. But in the video he didn't discuss the turf not being frozen (he wrote on Instagram that they drytooled a new start up to the roof because the turfy corner that the first ascent used wasn't frozen). That struck me as the most obvious thing missing from his "case for the defence".