I've just noticed the following note in the 2011 SMC Journal:
'Two large holes on the plateau near the top of Gully of the Gods are now a hazard in winter. The larger hole is at NG 80220 45480, 863m, 10m from the cliff edge.'
I've been up that way a few times and never noticed such holes. Has anyone else? Presumably the hazard would be falling in them in which case they must be pretty deep!
If close to the edge they sound like landslip features? I've seen deep rock crevasses in schist in the Arrochar Alps and also above Glen Clova at Loch Brandy. There'd been a huge recent landslide above the loch so they look prone to movement. Covered in snow they'd be a hazard.
If they're getting bigger as the comment suggests that could be a real worry as they're not far from the cliff edge which might suggest big movements.
Never seen any, but then I wasn't looking for any.
These are very visible in aerial imagery - there's 4 clearly visible on google earth (link below) and I think a couple more on higher resolution photos I looked at. Sadly, having had a quick glance at the regular Sentinel images it doesn't look like they are high enough resolution to see the features, if they're changing with time or when they first developed. https://www.google.com/maps/place/57%C2%B026'47.1%22N+5%C2%B039'52.6%22W/@5...
Never thought to mention this to you as presumed you knew, apologies! Yes when you walk off right (north) from the top of the godfather buttress area towards the descent slope there is at least 1 hole / rock crevasse that you need to watch out for. Can’t recall exactly but its not far off where Great Overhanging would top out I think….
Andy
Quite strange, it's like a gully mostly bridged but by earth rather than by snow. An ancient gully filled by muck that is now being emptied by erosion at an open end to the east??????
Is there a geographer or geologist in the house?
I'd presume it's Gully of the Gods cutting much further back into the hill than might be immediately obvious. Any brave cavers out there?
Apart from sea caves I've not come across cave development in Torridonian sandstone such as you'd get in limestone. Given the location of the holes close to a cliff edge and their linear position I suspect they are a fracture feature. Given time the whole lot will slump over into the corrie. It's a long way to go with some caving gear. I'm not a geologist but used to cave a lot including in Scotland.
There are dykes cutting through the sandstone thereabouts - there's one visible on the north side of Coire an Fhamair (towards the right hand side of this shot https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulsammonds/5078773580 ). I wonder if the holes could be a similar feature which is eroding out, rather than a widening fracture.
> It's a long way to go with some caving gear.
Could be record-breaker though: highest cave entrance in the country?
> > It's a long way to go with some caving gear.
> Could be record-breaker though: highest cave entrance in the country?
I suppose it depends on how you define a cave? I'm not aware of any particularly high altitude limestones in Scotland where you'd get 'proper' caves (formed by water action) rather than howfs in boulders, rock shelters or slip features. As far as I know, the highest proper caves in Britain are up on Knock Fell in the North Pennines at about 760m asl. I've seen a few 'Prince Charlie's Caves' on the map (he was definitely an early speleologist) but they are more like shelters or boulder howfs.
They look like a fault line revealing a massif landslip in it's early stage. I wonder how long it will take for that wonderful cliff to fall down? If you haven't climbed there, get on it before it vanishes, or some great new lines appear.
I sent Noel a link to the photos, his reply is below.
'It looks like the summit is capped by moraine, and over time rain has started to wash it into the underlying rifts in the bedrock.'
> I sent Noel a link to the photos, his reply is below.
> 'It looks like the summit is capped by moraine, and over time rain has started to wash it into the underlying rifts in the bedrock.'
Sounds plausible.
m In reply to Mark Bull:
Not much chance of it being the highest cave entrance in the country I'm afraid the Grampian Speleology Group have recorded one high on the Strath Ossian/ Loch Pattack Munros with an altitude of 895m. There are other caves in Applecross though so a visit by cavers might not be as unlikely as you might think
https://registry.gsg.org.uk/sr/sitedetails.php?id=3724
There are some caves noted in the corrie on Beinn Dubhcraig and at least one really quite high on the mountain probably around 800m altitude about due north of the summit which I have grovelled into, however a "cavern measureless to man" it is not.
On reflection, these many years later, this was probably not one of those recorded by the GSG explorations of Jim Salvona but I can't find my "caves of the Southern Highlands" book to be sure.
There are caves in Coire Mulrooney above Glen Creran but my explorations of this area never took me so far up the hill as there are plenty of caves lower down in the Coire Shielach area if you like that sort of thing...these Mulrooney caves may not really be much higher than the upper Schiehallion caves but you'd have to start from sea level to get to them...which hardly seems fair.
> m
> Not much chance of it being the highest cave entrance in the country I'm afraid the Grampian Speleology Group have recorded one high on the Strath Ossian/ Loch Pattack Munros with an altitude of 895m. There are other caves in Applecross though so a visit by cavers might not be as unlikely as you might thinkhttps://registry.gsg.org.uk/sr/sitedetails.php?id=3724
That's really interesting. Thirty years ago we passed within a few hundred metres of that cave during our foray to bag the Alder and Aonach Beag Munros. I'd no idea there was any limestone (let alone caves) in that area.
https://registry.gsg.org.uk/sr/sitedetails.php?id=3724
I've just been using this very useful link to check out some limestone I came across in Ardnamurchan ten years ago on Ben Hiant. There doesn't seem to be anything noted so could be a new caving area waiting to be investigated?
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3377048
Check out the features north of where I took that photo as well - looks like streams sinking on the map and the name Lochan Poll an Dubhaidh suggests a cave of some sort. You can click on the Geograph map and get a zoom-able version.
Holewatch update...
At the holes right now and they don't look like they lead to much.
> Holewatch update...
> At the holes right now and they don't look like they lead to much.
Get digging - some of the biggest caves in Britain have been discovered this way!
> Holewatch update...
> At the holes right now and they don't look like they lead to much.
I'm just wondering what's through that little black crevasse!
> I'm just wondering what's through that little black crevasse!
I didn't get a phone shot to post but if you're look at the top of Gully of the God's there's a chimney crack that runs through into where the holes are. So it's obviously quite a big feature.
Have you got a slightly more zoomed out photo? It seems like the crag side of the holes, opposed to the summit side, is slightly lower.
Combined with what you say about the chimney crack extending into the cliff, this has the hallmarks of being a tension crack at the head of a landslide.
Live reporting from UKC's correspondent on the spot!
> Live reporting from UKC's correspondent on the spot!
Capped off by fish and chips in the Applecross Inn!
> Have you got a slightly more zoomed out photo? It seems like the crag side of the holes, opposed to the summit side, is slightly lower.
> Combined with what you say about the chimney crack extending into the cliff, this has the hallmarks of being a tension crack at the head of a landslide.
The crag side of the holes is higher and it dips away behind them. I've got a shot of the crack on my camera so I'll post it when I'm home if you're interested. Obviously it's hard to say but it doesn't look like anything is going to collapse in the near future. If there was a failure at that point it would be gigantic as its probably about 50m from the edge. The fault runs roughly parallel with the cliff edge and you can see from the grass that it extends past the holes.
1=Great Overhanging Gully
2= Gully of the Gods the crack is in the gully wall roughly where the 2 is.
Limestone isn't essential.
Occasionally caves form in sandstone as a rift opening up through subsidence, sometimes keeping a roof. Very occasionally the are a reasonable length eg Pan Holes http://cavemaps.org/surveys/crg/full/CRG%20T1-4%20Pan%20Hole%20-%20Bingley....
There are a few others scattered around. Several sandstone mountains have quite deep slots in them - Beinn an Eoin springs to mind.
> Limestone isn't essential.
Yes, you're right. I never said it was essential. It depends on how you define a 'real' cave. Most water formed caves are in limestone. As far as I know British sandstone doesn't form caves in this way although there are significant sandstone caves in Venezuela because of the climate there.
> Occasionally caves form in sandstone as a rift opening up through subsidence, sometimes keeping a roof. Very occasionally the are a reasonable length eg Pan Holes http://cavemaps.org/surveys/crg/full/CRG%20T1-4%20Pan%20Hole%20-%20Bingley....
I've squirmed through a few things like this. There are also lots of slip caves ('windy pits') in the North York Moors limestone.
> There are a few others scattered around. Several sandstone mountains have quite deep slots in them - Beinn an Eoin springs to mind.
I've not seen them on sandstone myself but I have seen plenty of them on schist mountains like the Arrochar Alps.
Just noticed you're Craven PC. We've possibly crossed paths down a cave/in a Dales pub/Bernie's etc and you're well aware of all the above.
Haven’t seen these caves in particular , but did find a collect of small caves further to the west along the ridge line, this was about 10years ago but do have a photo. Can imagine the caves are land slip caves in origin, as the ones I went into most certainly were, and probably ancient…although I’m not a geologist either.
> If close to the edge they sound like landslip features? I've seen deep rock crevasses in schist in the Arrochar Alps and also above Glen Clova at Loch Brandy. There'd been a huge recent landslide above the loch so they look prone to movement. Covered in snow they'd be a hazard.
Here's a photo taken in 2007 of a fissure in the edge above Loch Brandy
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/516563
Here's a photo I took in 2019 of a huge landslip there
Photo of the crack in the side of Gully of the Gods. I suppose what you'd want to know is whether this is getting wider!
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